Hi everyone,

I've been posting on the Recovery board, because I thought we were in the initial stages of recovery. My signature line gives the basics, but to add a little, I went into a full (and good) Plan B when I moved out b/c H filed for D and wanted the A. My H tried to contact a few times & mentioned missing me/recovery, but I didn't come out of Plan B until he told me that the A was over. I had some confirmation of that, although I didn't have a NC letter. We started to talk every few days or so about recovery and just getting reconnected - it's been hot & cold, and I was trying to take it slow/be patient. This has all been within about 3-4 weeks. During our talks, my H said some wonderful things, but also some awful things. I've gone from hope to anger to resignation to hope to despair to ???

Anyway, I now have some indicators that the A is back on, even though my H still wants to meet w/ me to discuss "us" and possible recovery. He has admitted that they are still in contact, but insists they are just friends right now and not dating (could be true, but again, I have some contrary information). I understand that contact is not that unusual in the early stages of possible recovery, so I was trying to just Plan A again now that I was lured out of B, but take it slow and not crowd him, and appear to be the best option while making a case for reconciliation. (We have not moved back in together.)

My H now says that he hasn't agreed to a recovery, only to talking about if it's possible. However, he has said that if we do try to reconcile, then he agrees that he would have to end all contact w/ OW. (So, some bad, some good). There's more detail in my thread on Recovery titled "Triggers and Lies and Giving Up." (not sure how to link - sorry!)

We are supposed to meet this Saturday because WH thinks I need to answer some questions "correctly" and then he will consider whether we can try to reconcile. My idea is to Plan A, but also to draw a loving line in the sand. I want to tell my H (again) why I think we should try to reconcile, how we can learn from the past to create a great M that makes us both happy, and that I think we'll regret it if we don't really try. I also want to say that trying means 100% effort without interference from 3rd parties or pursuing other R's at the same time, and that I won't be involved in a triangle. My "talk" is spelled out in my other thread. I would ask him to think about it and then get back to me.

My question is basically, what do I do?
1. Do some detective work to see if the PA is really over and it's just an EA now? And if just an EA, then continue Plan A for a while longer and see if I can convince WH to do a full recovery?
2. Give WH my talk, and then go silent waiting for the answer or call every few days to keep meeting needs as much as possible while I wait for the answer? If he decides no full recovery (with NC), go back to Plan B with a new Plan B letter? If so, then how exactly do I do a new Plan B when my second Plan A has been short and we don't see each other every day? (i.e., a weak Plan A because of the circumstances) Does anyone have a second Plan B letter?

I'm really nervous about doing the wrong thing because my WH says I made things worse with my prior no contact, and he thinks all the MB stuff is garbage. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Also, we've made so much progress in the last few weeks - he said things I never thought I would hear again, so don't want to just throw it away. Also, I don't want to fail to meet his needs and push him back to the A if it's just an EA that he agrees to end completely if we're in recovery.

Any advice?
Thanks

cute - that's a really good description of your sitch. I hope you get some traffic with more advice than I'm giving you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cutenothot:
<strong>We are supposed to meet this Saturday because WH thinks I need to answer some questions "correctly" and then he will consider whether we can try to reconcile.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What the hell is this? A kangaroo court you can't possibly pass? What a scum bag!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

OK, I'll try to calm down.

I recommend you feel him out, but draw that line in the sand aggressively. He's waffling and give him an inch, he'll take a mile.

Most important - DO NOT LB. He may be fishing for more excuses to not try.

You can be in control here if you exude an air of confidence, determination, and independence. Going dark had an affect the first time. Perhaps you should not completely come out into the light.

WAT

Tell your H you would like a copy of the questions he intends to ask BEFORE the meeting...

after all...

if you are going to be graded on your answers...

shouldn't you be allowed to study before the "test"...

what gall.....

Pep

Anyway, I now have some indicators that the A is back on, even though my H still wants to meet w/ me to discuss "us" and possible recovery. He has admitted that they are still in contact, but insists they are just friends right now and not dating (could be true, but again, I have some contrary information).

He's lying. It's still an affair. But, you already know that... no need to confront him with what you know. He'll deny.


My idea is to Plan A, but also to draw a loving line in the sand.

What exactly does your loving line in the sand consist of? Give us details of what you may say to your H to draw the line clearly?

I want to tell my H (again) why I think we should try to reconcile, how we can learn from the past to create a great M that makes us both happy, and that I think we'll regret it if we don't really try.

Nice.

I also want to say that trying means 100% effort without interference from 3rd parties or pursuing other R's at the same time, and that I won't be involved in a triangle. My "talk" is spelled out in my other thread. I would ask him to think about it and then get back to me.

I don't have tme to go look at your other thread right now, perhaps later I will.

My question is basically, what do I do?
1. Do some detective work to see if the PA is really over and it's just an EA now? And if just an EA, then continue Plan A for a while longer and see if I can convince WH to do a full recovery?

I was wondering.... do you think the EA is less damaging to your marriage than a PA?


I'm really nervous about doing the wrong thing because my WH says I made things worse with my prior no contact, and he thinks all the MB stuff is garbage.

~LOL~

He didn't like NOT having his wife ~and~ his girlfriend available to him... GOOD.... this is a GOOD thing to know...

Translation: I don't like it when you deny me my marriage partner just because I have a girlfriend too.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Also, we've made so much progress in the last few weeks - he said things I never thought I would hear again, so don't want to just throw it away.

Words are cheap. Don't forget... "I love you" can be a hook so he can fence sit... be aware of the differences between what he says and what he does.

Also, I don't want to fail to meet his needs and push him back to the A if it's just an EA that he agrees to end completely if we're in recovery.

I am a little worried about you...

You did not fail to meet his needs enough for him to TRASH your marriage, did you?

I think he failed his own vows by his choice...

If you are too nervous about "what if" you are possibly prone to making your line in the sand too faint....

Are you worth your weight in gold as a wife?

Yes or no?

I bet you are.

Pep

<small>[ July 16, 2004, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

cute:

"I understand that contact is not that unusual in the early stages of possible recovery"

Renewed contact resets the clock. This is not recovery, possible or otherwise.

"1. Do some detective work to see if the PA is really over and it's just an EA now? And if just an EA, then continue Plan A for a while longer and see if I can convince WH to do a full recovery?"

I personally don't think you need 2 do any detective work, other than things that might fall in your lap (don't work 2 hard at it, that is). You already have confirmation that there's contact. If you concede that the "friendship" isn't an A because it's not physical, you set yourself up again for the EA becoming a PA... ...or worse, you sanction the EA so it goes on forever. Believe me, I've been dancing around that very problem with my W for 2 1/2 years now.

Be firm. NC is a REQUIREMENT before you can BEGIN recovery. Plan A or Plan B in the meantime on YOUR terms... ...leave the ball in his court.

-ol' 2long

I forgot 2 comment on the "MB is garbage" point.

My W said something 2 that effect during the indisputably BEST EVER discussion we had about our sitch last week. I'd be willing 2 bet large sums of other people's cash that there aren't any "active" WSs that DON'T say this.

Like Penny said 2 me, if your H gets angry because of something you've said or done, it means you've done something right.

cute, you do need 2 recognize your own value as a W and a human being. I've felt hammered enough times for staying in plan A for 30 months because I've been variously afraid 2 push my W and RM 2gether, or end our M when I'm not ready for that, or whatever. In all of it, I was basing my fears and (apparent) inactions on my presumtions of what my W would do "in retaliation" or out of spite in reaction 2 my actions.

But probably because it's been so long, I no longer have those fears. I'd still love nothing more than 2 stay M'd for life, but:

♣ I don't want 2 be married 2 someone who doesn't want 2 be M'd 2 me.

♠ I don't want 2 be M'd 2 someone who values me so little that she'll resume her friendship with a man she had a secret A with for 13 years.

♥ I do want 2 be M'd 2 the woman I M'd 28 yrs ago who's STILL IN THERE... ...somewhere. I'll wait for her 2 come out, but not forever. Getting pretty old, now.

-ol' 2long

<small>[ July 15, 2004, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

cute, he is wasting your time with any of this as long as he is still in the affair. He is clearly not ready to come back or he would have ended the affair. He is just trying to get you to break Plan B so he can regain some control over your life.

He is still on the fence and will stay there as long as you allow him to yank you around like this.

I know you are hopeful, but getting back into his game when he is still playing will only break your heart.

You can have much better if you will only hold out until he is serious about recovery. He is not serious right now. He may be CLOSE, but he is not ready YET. Let him ripen some more before you pick it or you will have nothing but bitterness.

Take back control of your life, cute. YOU set the terms here, NOT HIM. He is in no position to negotiate and that is exactly what he is trying to do. He is trying to negotiate AWAY your boundaries. Don't let him do that. Go back dark and tell him to contact you when ALL CONTACT IS ENDED and he is prepared with a plan designed to repair your marriage.

Don't invite heartbreak, you have already had enough.

Thanks for replying everyone.

So, I will be meeting with my H on Saturday. I'm going to continue Plan A, and then he will bring up the "let's talk" thing (which means the "blame it all on cute" talk or "test cute" talk). And I plan to respond with the following "Renewed Plan B speech" --- any and all comments are welcome...I think this is it for us, but I have to at least try...

"H, I want us to talk and be completely honest with each other as part of figuring out what we would need to do to repair our R and have a great M. One of the reasons for being open & honest with each other is to understand where we went wrong and how we got to this point, not to blame each other or judge each other. Once we understand what went wrong and where we are today, we can use that understanding to build a great R that makes us happier than ever before. Another reason is to build trust, so we shouldn't have those talks if we're not both sincere about seeing if we can repair things and have a great M.

To me, being sincere about it means we each make a real, complete effort to see if things can work out. We aren't making a real, sincere effort if there's interference from other people or if you are still trying to have a R w/ OW. I won't be a part of a triangle -it's wrong for everyone involved, especially after the feelings we've expressed for one another these past couple of weeks. It's also disrespectful to me as a person and as your wife. If it turns out that we can't reconcile, then your R will OW will still be there right where you left off and you can go on with your life knowing that this time you really did everything you could to make it work. I think we'll regret it if we don't really try this time.

H, we committed to each other and we M'd each other out of love - and we still have love for one another that we can grow and strengthen into a great M. When you've spoken to me from your heart, you've said that you missed me, you still loved me and you wished we could work things out and have a great M. I've told you that I feel the same way, and that I know it's possible to have a great M that makes us both truly happy. I think we should be true to our feelings and at least give it a sincere & real effort. I can't do it alone - the choice is yours - let me know what you decide."

=====

OK - then I just let him go & wait to hear from him? if he says "YES", then I say let's talk about exactly what we both need to feel assured that the other person is making a sincere, real effort (mine, as he knows, is NC, but I'm adding MC and, of course, the MB plan). If he says "NO", won't promise no OW, then I say, I'm sorry to hear that, and give him a Plan B II Letter. (any examples?) How long do I wait for the answer?

If I go to Plan B, then can I make on exception for his B-day? His B-Day is always a big deal to him, so it would be a big LBuster if I didn't do anything.

Also, I'm nervous about Plan B b/c WH said it made our R worse when we couldn't communicate and he could talk about anything with OW, and he said it further distanced us and made recovery less likely. What do you think about this - it sounds like there might be some truth to this.

One more BIG THING... he is planning a big trip around his B-day and mentioned that we might go together (I think the plan was to take OW before they broke up), but he hasn't mentioned it recently (so maybe he is taking OW again?). Do I ask about it? If he takes OW, then I am 100% out of this M - that is the final straw for many, many good reasons that I won't bother to explain right now and I will NOT ever talk to him again - not as part of Plan B, but as part of Plan Cute Needs Some Pride/Self-Respect Left. It would be the point of no return - with no exceptions. Should I mention that boundary to him? I have always been a doormat for him, but not on this one, and I feel like he won't respect me unless I start setting limits. It know it's an ultimatum, but at some point, I cannot take anymore. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

OK - any & all help is welcome - thanks everyone!!

P.S. No, I think EA is just as bad as PA, and I want/need full NC to stay in the M. My only thought was that WH seemed to be transitioning into recovery - I pictured him slowly and tentatively walking across a wobbly bridge that spans two mountain cliffs - if I shake him or yell at him or make demands, then he might fall or retreat - but if I encourage him, then when he gets to the other side, I can say - OK, cut the bridge down. Nevermind, I'm waxing poetic.

any last minute thoughts/advice before the big talk tomorrow?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I go to Plan B, then can I make on exception for his B-day? His B-Day is always a big deal to him, so it would be a big LBuster if I didn't do anything.

Also, I'm nervous about Plan B b/c WH said it made our R worse when we couldn't communicate and he could talk about anything with OW, and he said it further distanced us and made recovery less likely. What do you think about this - it sounds like there might be some truth to this.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">cute,the entire point of Plan B is to stop meeting ANY of your H's needs. See, the OW can't possibly meet all of his needs. But he won't know that until you STOP meeting them. Plan B helps them realize how many needs you did meet and often pulls them off the fence. But, when you CONTINUE to meet his needs, or allow occasional contact, he can get his cute "fix" and go on FOREVER! In essence, there comes a point in any affair where the BS actually enables the affair when Plan A goes on too long.

Your relationship is more than "worse" if he does not get rid of the OW, it is DOOMED. Your H is not supposed to ENJOY Plan B. Plan B is designed to more than distance you, it is designed to SEPERATE you. And separation ideally can have 2 results: it enables the WS to realize that the OP can't possibly meet all his needs and forces him off the fence. The other is that it helps you detach from the situation and regain some semblance of sanity in your life. This will be a great help to your peace of mind and your decision making abilities.

And of COURSE he doesn't like being cut off from you, that means he can't get his needs met by you and has no more control over you. That is the POINT. He can't be a cakeeater anymore.

Secondly, you should not contact him AT ALL on his b-day. He needs to experience what it will be like without you. That is the whole idea here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I think EA is just as bad as PA, and I want/need full NC to stay in the M. My only thought was that WH seemed to be transitioning into recovery - I pictured him slowly and tentatively walking across a wobbly bridge that spans two mountain cliffs - if I shake him or yell at him or make demands, then he might fall or retreat - but if I encourage him, then when he gets to the other side, I can say - OK, cut the bridge down. Nevermind, I'm waxing poetic.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And as long as you are holding the bridge steady for him, he can stay on the bridge FOREVER. So, you let go, hand him his Plan B letter and tell him to contact you when/if he gets across. THEN the bridge gets wobbly and the only one who can save him is himself of his own volition. You can't save him. The OW can't save him.

And I will just warn you about letting a WS "transition" into recovery. ["transition" only means prolonged AFFAIR] If it were up to them, they would "transition" for about 10 years. Who, in their right mind wouldn't want TWO women to meet his needs if he could get away with it? He will quit and make a decision when he HAS TO, and not before. Don't shoot yourself in the foot by removing his motivation. If the affair goes on too long, the longer it will ever take for him to withdraw from her, if ever.

Thats why its important to NEVER EVER relax your boundary of NO CONTACT. It is a fast ticket to hell that only delays recovery and PROLONGS the affair. This is one of the worst mistakes that BS' make around here, and it never works.

<small>[ July 16, 2004, 04:42 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>