After some bad email communication about money matters, I asked the sparrow recently if we could discuss it in person. The issue is really very simple - how to explain where the money has come and gone in our joint account. She agreed in her typical businesslike tone:

"If you'd like to get together to sort out some of the financial stuff, I can be available Sunday afternoon."

I emailed back that I have plans for most of Sunday, but that I can be available sometime between 2-5. She responded,

"Yes, 4:00 will work for me. Where would you like to meet? If you don't mind, please bring any mail that may have arrived for me."

I have some questions, sort of worrying about minutiae, but everything seems important right now.

First - should I stick to meeting on neutral territory? I wouldn't mind her coming to the house, except that I've boxed up lots of her stuff. She hasn't been by in two weeks. She has said to me several times since leaving that she misses the house.

Second - rumor has it OM is backing away from the sparrow right now. She agreed to this meeting pretty easily. In recent communications I've been particularly nice. I've told her I miss her and that I hope to see her sometime soon. If she brings up things other than money at this meeting I won't be surprised. Not that she will want to come home, but I don't know what to expect. Expecting nothing is probably good. Even if she is having doubts about her choices, I think her pride will get in the way right now. Need to make that pride matter to her less, if there's any way to do that.

Third - I have told her that I can explain my lack of a response to her email about her 4th of July plans with OM if she wants, and I've also told her I need to get rid of the bed because it hurts me to have it in the house. If she brings up either of these things, how carefully do I have to tiptoe around the subject that she's having an A? I don't know if she is aware that the reason I don't want the bed is because she had sex with OM in it. She may not know that I know that. Should I tell her what I know if she brings it up? Or should I pretend that I don't want the bed because it's sad not to be sharing it with her. That would not be honest. I would keep it if she hadn't cheated on me in it.

Finally - should I tell her about the puppy? This is a dog we had planned to get together, and it might seem like a transparent attempt to lure her if I say guess what, I'm getting a border terrier. OTOH, it seems manipulative and a little dishonest not to tell her about something that's a big deal to me.

Every one of these meetings feels like the World Series.

GC

What about if you'd email her and tell her that you have some things of hers boxed up if she'd like to pick them up, and the two of you could talk about financials then.

That would be a HECK of a wakeup call to reality. I think it would shock the heck out of her.

As far as the dog - and anything else exciting in your life - if she's open to sharing personal things, then go for it. Again - reality showing her that your life will go on as originally planned - her in it or not. Considering all she's going through right now - it will reaffirm to her what she's leaving behind.

Hey,
for what it's worth, here's my opinion. The value of plan b for you is that she sees you're moving on with your life > in that life there will be good things, not just bad. I think there's value in it for her to see that some of the things you're doing are fun, exciting, spontaneous... she will see that she is really missing some good stuff with you. If OM is backing away from her then she will have shaky ground under her feet, women are driven by security, she senses that her situation is about to be very insecure. She knows she could be left with nowhere to go and no family to go to. Let her know you miss her, yes, but also let her see you living a good life that she is no longer a part of.

The part about the bed, yeah, I'd probably just say it as a matter of fact and move on and not camp out on that point. I think this could be a good meeting for you, my man. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Out!

gosh you sound so much like me, i'll try to give you my take on things since i have had a few months up on you in this game and the benefit of counseling w/SH. just a friendly reminder to plan A at all times, keep things pleasant, upbeat, matter of fact. don't expect her to do anything for you or for her to do anything positive right now. she is unable to meet your needs or care for you right now because of the way circumstances are. take what she says w/a grain of salt, let her actions speak for her words and make sure your actions follow your words. remember that we "know" a lot more than the WS right now because we have been "educated" the WS can't be educated because they are still in the fog. what you have just written is exactly something i would have gone over w/SH and he would have given me things to say and write down. because we BS are also doing some changes in behavior and it takes time and practice. anyway....

i think given your situation it would be okay for her to come to the house. i wouldn't make sure the boxes are right out in the open maybe just kind of off to the side or even in the garage. if she asks where they are then you can tell her and just come back w/the response that it was too painful for you to loook at everyday because you weren't with her. but a neutral territory would be okay too, up to you and what you think you would be able to handle the best.

sometimes the best way to make the WS feel that the home/marriage is a safe place to come back to is to not do anything and this is why you just need to continue to be cautious, take things slow, and plan A.

absolutely do not bring anything up regarding the A, you are in a battle in a big war and any talk around that is leaving you out in the open and unguarded. you want the LB's to occur b/w sparrow and the OM not between the 2 of you. even though you may not be making any deposits, i think if you are able to stop any withdrawals from the LB you are doing a good job and this is especially important when it comes to the subject of the A/R/M. just gently say things, say stuff like it "hurts me" "it's too painful for me" "i'm struggling" but always try to redirect the conversation and turn things around by saying but "i'm taking one day at a time" "tomorrow is another day" "i'm just doing the best i can." don't force any issues even though everything inside you is screaming to find out stuff or talk about stuff with her. you want your marriage don't you? then you have got to do what it takes to allow that to happen.

i think saying having the bed in the house was too painful is the truth. you don't have to go into details of why.

as far as the dog, well just go w/her lead. if there are periods of awkward silence then it might be a good time to say "you might be interested to know i'm actually going to be getting a dog" or "i came across an opportunity to get a dog and i decided to go ahead and do it"
or "you know how we always talked about getting a dog, well i've been thinking about it a lot lately and i've decided to get one." you could also try to segway into your schedule and say you wouldn't be able to do something because you were getting a dog. like say for instance, she doesn't come by or doesn't show up on sunday (a real possibility remember) then if she contacts you for a time to get the mail, then that's when you could introduce the dog subject. for example "i couldn't do it tuesday because that's when i'm going to be picking up my new dog." even if it's a "big deal" to you to be getting this dog, she will not really know that or even care.

you are right, everyone of these meetings and interactions seem like the real play of the day or the world series as you put it. we BS just want to do everything right and everything we can possibly do in these situations. you are a lot better equipped to handle these situations now and are definitely more in the know than your W. how does the saying go "the more you know the further you go." being prepared is half the battle. stay the course, and keep doing what you can, when you can, for as long as you can but always remember you cannot control the WS or the situation. choices are being made for you and you have to respond or react due to those choices which are not your own.

continued strength and prayers and i expect a full report on monday (i don't have computer access at home). good luck and pray! RR

GC,
Although I’ve never posted to you I have followed your situation with interest. At this point I think that I've read enough so that I might be able to offer some insight. In that it wasn’t so long ago that I found my self-dealing with your problem my experiences might be of some use. Therefore I offer you the following advice.
1. When you meet with her this weekend you must adopt a business like approach. In fact, if it were me, (and it once was), I would even go so far as to have a written agenda. This will keep you on track and out of the LB business where your temper is sure to go if she chooses to instigate an argument. Do not bring up the bed or that you’re throwing it out. Just leave it alone. Going there is just not worth the trouble it will cause or the damage that discussing it will do.
2. When discussing financial matters, be brief, be clear and be fair. State your case but don’t make any threats. However, and this is important, be sure that in presenting your side of the sitch, it’s clear to her what your options “can be” should she decide to be unreasonable. And by the way, cut her off financially in as far as you can. There is No way that you should be supporting her little love fest! This should have been done long ago!
3. Do not mention anything about the OM’s marital sitch. If she brings it up, refuse to go there with her. GC, what the OM and his W end up doing cannot be the deciding factor in your re-establishing the marriage with your W. If she should decide to return to you only because the OM is no longer available to her, then you have won nothing! You have achieved nothing. Coming back to you needs to be a decision she makes because of YOU, not the OM.
4. If she brings up issues that cause you to have some pause from lack of understanding, or about which you’re not sure as to the proper course of action to take, then delay response. Don’t be rude, just ask for time to consider the matter, promising to get back to her on a timely basis.
5. Be sure that your body language, tone of voice, your entire demeanor is non confrontational. Instead, be kind and non judgmental. If she wants to talk, listen! Listen, listen, listen! Don’t offer any comments or solutions to problems for goodness sake. In short, the only EN that you should fill for her is that of friend and confidant.
6. No relationship talk, no I love yous, no I want you backs, no please come backs, no let’s work on the marriage togethers, no please don’t be hardheadeds. Just quiet, confident willingness to listen while asking for nothing and offering nothing. Offerings come later on! For now, be cool, independent and distant.

GC, getting through these kind of confrontations, (and make no mistake, that’s what they are), require that you be in total control of yourself. We’ve already established that you can’t control her so don’t try. Trying will be perceived by her to be just one giant LB, and will get you nowhere anyway. So control yourself and let her eyes and senses conclude who you are. In doing things under control you will be telling her more and doing it in a way she will have to see, then all the talk in the world.

Good luck.
coach

GC,
Although I’ve never posted to you I have followed your situation with interest. At this point I think that I've read enough so that I might be able to offer some insight. In that it wasn’t so long ago that I found my self-dealing with your problem my experiences might be of some use. Therefore I offer you the following advice.
1. When you meet with her this weekend you must adopt a business like approach. In fact, if it were me, (and it once was), I would even go so far as to have a written agenda. This will keep you on track and out of the LB business where your temper is sure to go if she chooses to instigate an argument. Do not bring up the bed or that you’re throwing it out. Just leave it alone. Going there is just not worth the trouble it will cause or the damage that discussing it will do.
2. When discussing financial matters, be brief, be clear and be fair. State your case but don’t make any threats. However, and this is important, be sure that in presenting your side of the sitch, it’s clear to her what your options “can be” should she decide to be unreasonable. And by the way, cut her off financially in as far as you can. There is No way that you should be supporting her little love fest! This should have been done long ago!
3. Do not mention anything about the OM’s marital sitch. If she brings it up, refuse to go there with her. GC, what the OM and his W end up doing cannot be the deciding factor in your re-establishing the marriage with your W. If she should decide to return to you only because the OM is no longer available to her, then you have won nothing! You have achieved nothing. Coming back to you needs to be a decision she makes because of YOU, not the OM.
4. If she brings up issues that cause you to have some pause from lack of understanding, or about which you’re not sure as to the proper course of action to take, then delay response. Don’t be rude, just ask for time to consider the matter, promising to get back to her on a timely basis.
5. Be sure that your body language, tone of voice, your entire demeanor is non confrontational. Instead, be kind and non judgmental. If she wants to talk, listen! Listen, listen, listen! Don’t offer any comments or solutions to problems for goodness sake. In short, the only EN that you should fill for her is that of friend and confidant.
6. No relationship talk, no I love yous, no I want you backs, no please come backs, no let’s work on the marriage togethers, no please don’t be hardheadeds. Just quiet, confident willingness to listen while asking for nothing and offering nothing. Offerings come later on! For now, be cool, independent and distant.

GC, getting through these kind of confrontations, (and make no mistake, that’s what they are), require that you be in total control of yourself. We’ve already established that you can’t control her so don’t try. Trying will be perceived by her to be just one giant LB, and will get you nowhere anyway. So control yourself and let her eyes and senses conclude who you are. In doing things under control you will be telling her more and doing it in a way she will have to see, then all the talk in the world.

Good luck.
coach

sorry for the double post. server seems slow today and i reposted in error.
coach

I'm thinking of the scene in "French Kiss" when Meg Ryan's character meets up with WFiance in France and meets for dinner to split up mutual property and he is taken aback by how cavalier she is about the whole process.

Seen the movie? go ahead and watch it, but I would stop the movie after that scene. She finds she doesn't WANT to get back with ex-fiance.

How cavalier can you be? She is going to expect a fight/passion, don't give it to her, it's just stuff...ho hum. Not "Whatever you want" but if she seems like she is getting unreasonable or particularly emotional, remind her, it's only stuff.

I would DEFINITELY offer the bed to her, but tell her you don't want it in the house again. If she asks why, you can ask, "Do you really want to know?" If she says yes, then say, "Too many memories of you and OM in it." If she doesn't want it, then ask if it's OK if you get rid of it. Heck, I'd sell the bed frame. That's just me. And I like the expression "don't camp on it." Let it go, move on...

And again, I agree, tell her about the puppy if the talk turns to talk of personal lives. You could even say..."I'm getting a roommate...no one you know, you're welcome to meet them when they move in." If she bugs you about it, you can say, "I'll let it be a surprise."

Coach, I'm with you. I know not to bring up anything sticky like the bed (haw haw) or our relationship, but only to be prepared to be cool if she brings those things up. There will certainly not be any please oh please come back I love you so much stuff. I put that all away weeks and weeks ago.

As for OM and his M, that is nothing I'd be inclined to talk about, no. She probably doesn't realize how much contact I've had with car4love, and I have no reason to tell her about that.

Financially speaking, she's on her own. The only reason she isn't cut off completely is because she's sticking money in the joint account faster than she can keep track of it, because she wants to save up for a lawyer next month, so I'm told.

Nervous about this meeting... but I can hack it. I did fine last time.

GC

SHMI, I love the idea of coyly bringing up the roommate. "I'm getting a roommate. They won't be paying any rent, and you don't know them, but you can come meet them sometime." The "them"s are a dead giveaway that something is up. I wish just for this situation it was a female dog!

Oh, I've already told her the bed causes me pain, and she's already said she wants it.

Here's my response regarding location:

"[sparrow], we could get a bite at [cool outdoor restaurant] (I've been meaning to go there for a while), we could meet at that same coffee shop as before, or we could meet at the house. I've boxed up some of your things and I thought you might want to look through them or take a few more things. Let me know your preference. See you soon,

[GC]"

bump!

gc:

"I wish just for this situation it was a female dog!"

Yeah, you could say something like "I've got this new b**** coming 2 live with me in your stead."

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I'm going 2 get myself killed,
-ol' 2long

Anybody care to chime in on that email? I haven't sent it yet, but need to in the next hour or so.

GC

2long said:
"Im going to get my self killed"

Most likely, but it may be better than waiting for old age.

Gray,
You have the principals down pretty well, I suggest you write down the main points of whatever you want to get across and stick to them when you talk. If the conversation goes another way, you can always bring it back if you know in advance what you want to cover. Most people that wing it get really emotional and have a more difficult time staying away from LB's.

You could include things like:
1. You love her and want to try again.
2. This feeling of wanting to try again may not last forever, but right now you still have it.
3. You do miss her but realize you can't live her life for her or control her so you have decided to do well no matter what she does. It would be wonerful to grow old with her, but she is free to choose.
4. It hurts to see someone you love that much be with someone else, so untill she is willing to do NC, you don't want to live with her again.

Plus other concerns you have. Keep your talk to less than 5 minutes total. Please trust me on this last one.

Now, if she starts a serious "I want to come back" discussion, you can go longer, but if not, keep this Relationship talk really short.

If you do talk about the Dog at all it should be along the lines of
"You won't believe what I am getting, I am finally going to get a dog. You NEED TO COME by and see him after I pick him up..........Oh, I forgot, that may not be a good idea. Shoot, I should have probably not brought that up. Sorry."

There are lots of ways you could do it wrong. Be careful with that one.

By now you have lots of opinions - make sure you do this with MB rules in mind. You don't LB on purpose, but you don't take away their consenquences either.

Here's a link about that.
Mthrrhbard on Plan A and natural consequences

All the best,

SS

The email is fine. I would send it as it is.

SS

graycloud - I think it is fine, and I think you will do well. Just remember that we are all pulling for you.

gc:

Me and the dog think it's fine, 2.

-ol' 2long

She responded right quick:

[GC],
[cool outdoor restaurant] sounds fun. I will plan to meet you there Sunday at 4:00. I don't have a lot of storage space for more "things" so just keep it in the basement or something for now.

She seems pretty mellow about the boxing up of her things. Doesn't seem I made any waves there.

GC

gc:

Ah, yes. the cold, hard exterior.

The point is 2 do and say things that YOU can look back on without regret in the decades/cen2ries 2 come...

-ol' 2long

Gray - Good luck with the meeting this weekend. I can't believe how strong you have been during this entire situation. One way or another you are going to come out of this a better person.

When do you think you are getting the dog? Crate training is good. Do you have a fenced in yard? I don't know how people do it without a fence. I'm so bad I even had a deck built off of my bedroom with steps to the back yard so in the middle of the night all I have to do is crawl over and open the door! My big boy is named Trapper after Trapper John, MD from the TV show M.A.S.H.