Hi

Haven't posted in a long time. Not sure if any of the 'regulars' of the time still post. Those interested can do a search, but here is the summary:

Friends since 1989
Together since 1992
Daughter born 1994
Married 1995
Early March 03: felt things weren't right, but couldn't quite put my finger on it. EA was just beginning
Mid-March 03: confrontation after another late night. No admission of A, but 'admission' of problems in relationship. Went into Plan A effectively, although didn't know for another few weeks what it was called! Attempts to get WW to see counselor failed
Mid April 03: after several confrontation and mounting evidence, WW admitted A. Clarity at last. Continued Plan A
Mid June 03: Tried to move to plan B. WW moved out of house for short time at my request. Within a week WW insisted on moving back in.
July 03- December 03. Still trying to maintain love for wife and trying to negotiate a separation to have minimally disruptive and upsetting effect on our daughter. Failed attempt after failed attempt, as each 'agreement' would be disbanded and deadlines came and went.
January 04-now. Have lost any love for WW. I want a separation as a prelude to divorce. Have been following the tortuous legal process required to do this.

Unfortunately for me, legally my position is quite bleak. I have been advised that under no circumstances should I leave the house (we jointly own it). So I am stuck in a sort of horrible limbo where I must live in the same house as WW while she conducts her A with impunity. The only light ahead is when the case is heard in court - that process is in train and cannot be delayed (much) by her. She can shorten it by negotiating at any time, but she has refused to do so to date. Our joint friends as well as her sisters cannot understand her conduct - it is not in her interest in any sense to go to court, but she is deep 'in the fog' and taking an ostrich like approach to the whole thing - i.e. live for now and worry about the future when it arrives.

We have not had any substantive discussions with our D since a few weeks after D-Day (just before WW moved out for a while) at which time she was very upset and full of questions. At that time there was, I felt, genuine hope (and desire on my part) for reconciliation and I used this to reassure her and answer her questions as best I could. Since then the whole process has been drifting and I have been avoiding discussing the subject directly with our D as I have no answers to such questions as where she will live, what kind of custody arrangements there will be, will she be moving school etc. Instead I have concentrated on trying to be the best father I can be for her and we continue to have a great relationship.

Obviously she knows things aren't good - both as a result of our discussion with her last year and the simple observation that Mom and Dad do not spend any time in each others company.

I know she needs more information, probably well before now, but there is another recent development which means it has to happen ASAP in my opinion.

Some 10 days ago WW took our D to see her grandmother (WW's mother)- granny lives about 6 hrs drive away and has just left for a 6 month trip to the other side of the world. I discovered today (WW's sister called me to tell me) that OM has been staying in WW's mother's house for this time with WW and our D, AND with WW's mother's blessing.
I am furious with WW's mother and very upset for what it has done to our D who has taken it upon herself to lie (or at least conceal/omit to mention) about what is happening.
Our D is a smart 10 year old and at this stage (i.e. with the last two weeks developments) will have added 2+2 to get 4 I am sure.

I don't know what if anything WW has told our D (WW has told me that she hasn't told her anything), but I feel I need to act now.

My difficulties/questions are threefold:

1) How much information should I give our D
2) Further to (1), I know I should not talk about WW as a 'bad person', but instead talk about the specific 'bad things' she has done. BUT, I find it hard to find anthing in WW's behaviour SINCE the A that is positive. I don't want our D to hate her mother, but her behaviour has been so bad that I don't know how to open the discussion without this being a consequence
3) How best do I deal with questions for which I, as of now, don't have an answer for, e.g. where will I live, how often will I see you/Mom. In the absence of any reality from her Mother, it will be the judge that decides, but is this what a 10 year old should be told?

The truth. Your mother decided that she wants to be with another man, not me. I love you and will always be your father. What has happened is not your fault. I don't know what will happen in the future, but I will always be there for you.

My 10 year old daughter this morning told me that she doesn't ever want to be married.

There's a line in the Bible about the sins of the fathers being visited on the children. I understand that line much better now.

My MIL told me just last week, "When I found out about what happened two years ago, I was upset with you". My response was to laugh and say, "And I was upset with Sophia". She said, "No..." and then I said, "Until I realized that Tom's behavior is Tom's responsibility." She'll blame me for his actions, and that's just the way it is.

Cherished

Thanks Cherished

tonight I got really mad. Just watching some crummy TV movie and you guessed it - it featured a couple with a 10 year old girl, one of whoms parents had an affair. Fcuked me up bigstyle. I dunno, maybe did me good to vent some anger on the furniture tho!

12/05/01 Weaned 10 month old abruptly due to having surgery for childbirth related injury; in hospital 5 days after hysterectomy and repair to bladder, rectum, and small intestine; not to drive for 2 weeks to avoid jarring; warned that there could be emotional side effects from hysterectomy

12/17/01 Husband tells me woman who propositioned him back in May may call him to wish him a Merry Christmas; I threaten to call her; he pleads with me not to; he comes over to the side of the bed and lifts his fists; I tell him, "If you hit me, you could mess up the surgery" and he says "I don't care"; I put my hands up to protect my face, he punches away my arms, and punches me on the shoulder; broken arm

12/18/01 Surgery at same hospital; bandage covers bruises on shoulder; still have a catheter bag from 12/5 surgery; ulna was broken in 7 pieces; 1 1/2 hour surgery under general anasthesia

2/27/02 second surgery; cast removed, in splint to be removed only in bathtub to do exercises; can move wrist about 5 %

4/3/02 splint removed; hand therapy 7 times in April

4/22/02 I call OW's H

5/4/02 OW's H calls me

I was furious. The kids were told "Daddy kissed Sophia on the lips" and "Daddy broke Mommy's arm".

H is in a weekly anger management class, but I needed it too. I NEVER should have tolerated (what I thought was forgiven) physical abuse. We should have been in MC after our wedding night, which was a disaster.

Look -- you have an anger problem. YOU. She has a legal right to break the marriage covenant, and you need to accept that, no matter how hurt you are, no matter how hurt the children are. Try getting the book "All About Anger."

Personally, I look back and think that I handled the situation in the worst possible manner. I let him stay while I berated him for 18 months. I humiliated him in front of his family. Two weeks after D-day, his father died, probably not a coincidence since D-day became revelation day to both families about the affair and abuse that was capped by the broken arm. I chased him out of the funeral parlor.

I must live with the shame of how I handled myself.

He was telling me he ended it, which I believe. You are living with this woman who is flaunting her affair. I feel for you -- you know what, the broken arm was emotionally inconsequential compared with the affair.

So -- please, please, for the sake of your D, consider that your W could come out of the fog, and handle yourself so that she wishes to return to you. Your W has support of her family, which is bad, but your D will always be yours. Try to stay away from this woman. Consider her brainwashed, hypnotized... And try looking into an anger management group.

Do this for the sake of your D. She needs you.

Cherished

Hi Salerio,

I haven't seen your name for a while. I am sorry that things are still so awful. The truth is the best thing to tell your daughter. Make it about the facts and not about your pain. Be sure she understands that this is not about her. Which state do you live in?

<img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> (((((((((salerio)))))) <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Thanks for the good advice people

I'm pretty sure WW will be going away with OM some time in the next week or two. That will allow myself and D to spend a lot of time together and do stuff. I think I will tell her then as I will have plenty of time to answer any questions and deal with any fallout.

Obviously, being human, I'm going to be somewhat bitter. Nonetheless being as objective as I can be - and echoing what friends and family (including hers) have said to me - it is hard to find any positives in her behaviour.

I will of course put aside discussion of what effect any happenings have on me and instead focus on facts, looking to the future and answering our D's questions.

However something as simple as telling her that both her parents still love her as much as ever is difficult - I'm not actually 100% sure that WW does. I'm 90% sure that deep in there somewhere is the caring wife (or in this instance mother), but she is so self-focussed (Read selfish) and irrational now that I couldn't say I believe it 100% <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I suppose what I am trying to say is that even trying to stick 100% to facts, our D will have a very negative view of her mother. I really don't want that, but I'm equally adamant that I shouldn't be shouldering blame for something her mother did or didn't do.

Cherished - I'm afraid I disagree with some of what you say. I think it is trite to say that someone has the legal right to break a legal contract - they do of course, but there are consequences to this course of action. Similarly, marriage is a contract in much more than a legal sense and again free will dictates that someone can dishonour that contract - but then again a contract would be pretty meaningless if someone had no option but to follow it - it would be like and apple signing a contract to abide by the law of gravity!

I accept that she has free will and has chosen to do this. Doesn't mean I have to approve of it or like it.
At this stage I am no longer personally upset - what upsets me is what affect this is having and will continue to have on our D. The end of any marriage is not going to be easy but my WW's selfish actions (or more pertinently inaction in many cases) is and will continue to make things more difficult for our D. I don't apologise for being angry about that, and nor do I feel I should have to. Anger is, IMO, a healthy emotion - it stimulates us to action. That action can of course be healthy or unhealthy.

Me sitting up late at night watching some stupid tearjerker movie after a hard weeks work, missing my D who I haven't seen in 10 days, and venting some emotion by shedding a few tears and slapping a cushion a few times is nothing to be ashamed of I think.

I have as an adult never hit another person and I could count on one hand the number of times I've even shouted at someone in anger. That includes times where I have been hit or shouted at and would by most neutral observers have been considered to have been provoked.

My marriage is over in any emotional sense - I just have to deal with some lingering physical and legal issues. I can look myself in the mirror and know 100% that I could not have done more to save my marriage from the beginning of this A onwards. I am happy in myself that to end the marriage is the correct thing to do - for me and for our D, and probably for WW - although not for the reasons that she wants to end it.

To say that WW has the support of her family is not quite correct - her mother is a selfish spoilt person with many mental problems of her own and a (possibly) recovering alcoholic. Much as WW is doing, she will take an Ostrich-like approach to what is there. She doesn't think WW is right to do what she did, but she won't stand up to her. In this sense I suppose she is tacitly supportive. However none of the rest of the family are in any way supportive to the best of my knowledge. Both her sisters are regular contact with me and are very supportive to me if anything.

I would love to be able to take your advice of 'stay away from this woman'. However her insistence on her right to stay in our house, combined with her refusal to take any action to shorten this process (even though that is in her best interest to do so, not to mention our D, or my interest) means that is a luxury not allowed to me.

You advice on what to tell my D seems very appropriate.

Finally my sympathy on your situation which sounds truly awful. I wish you all the best in coming through that.

Kind regards

S.

PS. starfish - I could be smart and say I am in the state of denial (of anger problems), but that would be cheap <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I'm not in the US - I live in Europe

My H woke up. He is truly trying. Your W may as well. That is why I told you my story in such graphic detail.

When I read what you wrote, it seemed to me to be somewhat incoherent -- my imagination was that you had had several drinks and were bashing around furniture and then went and posted on MB.

You can't speak for your W when you talk to your D, only for yourself. And you seem to care very much. You can be her rock. You're the only father she has.

As for the freedom to do what your W pleases, what I meant was that no law at least in MN protects the marital promise of sexual exclusivity.

Cherished

Hi salerio,

I have two daughters that up until a couple weeks ago,were shielded from the digusting acts of my WH.I had talked about the fact of them being protected with other's here,some agreed other's didn't.It is a personal decision.So,a few thoughts.

First,I don't know where exactly you live but in my state,I can get a legal order that prevents my children from being exposed to the homewrecker until we are divorced.Most judges today agree that children do not need to be in the middle of something as sordid and horrifying as adultery.It's not in their best interest and that's what judges look at first.So even though you may be sharing time with your daughter,she does need to spend time with you both but she does NOT need to be around the OM AT ALL.This is something you should fight for.Your daughter needs to be protected from any further attempts from your WW to have OM around her.He is the last person that should be considered in this whole mess if at all.You need to make it a priority and show your WW that it is not acceptable to you and you will do what it takes to end that additional BAD behavior even if you cannot stop the A.My WH knew from the beginning that I would go ballistic if he ever tried to bring that homewrecker around my children.

Second.My daughters are around the same age as yours.I took them aside one day and told them this(random order here): Daddy has a "girlfriend" and it's not appropriate when he is married and already has a wife(they didn't understand being involved with).I told them it was not their fault what has happened to mom and dad and there was nothing they could have done to prevent daddy making these bad decisions.Instead of saying daddy was a bad person,I too talked about behavior and choices.You can bet that I told them about the homewrecker( I said that person) and that she is not welcomed into our families and never will be for being involved with daddy.I told them that the homewreckers name is NEVER to be mentioned in my home and that they can always say NO to daddy if they are uncomfortable if he talks about her or tries to introduce them to her at some point.I want them to feel empowered to be able to say no and not accept that person because of what she stands for and what she has done.They have every right to see him but DO NOT need to see that person,ever if they do not want to.That will be something my WH may have to deal with in our future.He wants everyone to accept this homewrewcker and it's not going to happen.

I have given them many opportunities to ask questions and I answer accordingly.I tell them that they can come to me at anytime to talk and I have been "checking in" with them periodically to make sure they are doing alright.I told them,in my case,that nothing else is going to change.They are still going to the same school,we are not moving and that we both love them very much and always will.I told them that I am very sad too that this is happening but that it takes two to make a marriage work and daddy isn't doing anything to try and fix the problems in our marriage.I told them that even though I am very sad and that they may see me cry,I will always be here for them and I am not leaving.My youngest daughter has been having a bit of separation anxiety(clingy) but not too bad.She does feel abandoned by her father and he has abandoned us.He is perfectly happy being a part time dad and doesn't care if he misses time with them.That makes me mad.

There is a lot more that I talked with them about but I could go on all night.I really felt that talking to them myself had many advantages.My WH only wants to look better by telling half truths and omitting details.

I hope this helps a bit.It's crushing to children no matter what you say.I hate that my WH is destroying their innocence and making us another statistic.

Let your daughter guide you with what she wants to know.Many kids just need to know certain details,not the gory facts.

O

Cherished

my apologies if I seemed short. Re-reading the post I can see where you got that impression. I had indeed had a couple of drinks, but as I said, a few slaps into a cushion and some tears was as far as it got.

Thanks

Just take care of yourself. Your D needs you --
Cherished

Octobergirl

thank you for thoughtful and insightful comments. To deal with some of your comments in turn.

From a previous conversation with my lawyer I understood that I couldn't de facto prevent my child being in OM's company, unless there was some other definite reason (e.g. she was subject to some risk). I have e-mailed her again to double check this as soon as I found about the latest developments (OM staying in MIL's house with WW). However, my lawyer did indicate that if/when this goes to court that this (WW's behaviour in having OM there) would not be viewed favourably. When I discuss with my D I will open the issue about her feelings in this regard and do what I can from there. OM was a family friend who would have been regularly in the house etc, so our D would have known him passably well beforehand.

Second, regarding our D's choice about not being around OM post separation - again I cannot insist on this in any way - unfortunately. I will 'empower' her as you put it - but ultimately if WW insists on it, there is little I can do without some other justification (i.e. risk as I mentioned above).

Regarding the stability issue, this is at the core of what is annoying me so much about WW's behaviour. House prices have increased very considerably since we bought our house. They continue to increase much faster than wage inflation. The capability of either of us therefore to buy the other out of the house becomes constrained the longer this takes. As WW earns approximately 50% of what I do this will affect her harder. There is no way she will get any settlement in court that will enable her to buy me out - once costs are accounted for, she would need probably 80-90% equity. She is extremely unlikely to get anything over 60%. The longer she delays, the worse the worst-case scenario for me becomes - if prices go up much more then I may not be able to stretch to 60% which would entail selling the house, with all attendant transaction costs etc. It will be extremely difficult for me (and even more so for WW) to find ANY suitable accomodation (i.e. 2+ bedrooms and somewhere for me to use as a study/office - I do some work from home) for purchase in the locality. Rental property is just as unaffordable with higher rental costs than meeting the mortgage charges - so I would be rapidly frittering away any chance of a future purchase.

I will settle for nothing less than 50-50 custody. In that scenario it may be that our D will be living one week at a time in each of our 'new houses' - neither of which will be especially close to her school or to her current friends. I will of course seek to keep her in the same school for the time being, but she will be finished there in less than 2 years, and then it will be a question of compromising with WW over where she goes next.

So in summary, WW's actions carry no benefit for anyone - most of all herself, other than to serve as procrastination - delaying facing the inevitable. That I find particularly galling and it has been one of the reasons why I have delayed talking to our D - because there are obvious questions there (e.g. where will I live, what about school) to which there should be easily resolved (by WW and I) answers, but instead all i have is an "I don't know" or worse yet - "That depends on what the judge decides"

Makes me feel like slapping another cushion just writing it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Cherished

my apologies if I seemed short. Re-reading the post I can see where you got that impression. I had indeed had a couple of drinks, but as I said, a few slaps into a cushion and some tears was as far as it got.

Thanks

Hi again salerio,

I do count my blessings because I think I am in the best possible situation I could be in given the circumstances.I know it sounds very difficult for you and I will pray for the best outcome.It's one thing for children to have to be told that their parents are ending their marriage but then to have all the rest of their world turned upside down is just sickening.

I know what you mean about your WW losing more than she is gaining.My WH is just about to lose everything he used to hold dear: his wife,time with his kids,his home(which is our dream home that we bought 2.5 years ago)ties with his family,losing most of his paycheck to me and the kids,etc,etc.All he has to show for it is a homewrecker who,undoubtedly over time,will be sick of ever other weekend being used to see his kids and she will get tired of footing all the bills in the relationship.Apparently,she also had to buy her parents home,which they had a business out of,because they were in danger of losing it.So,she has no money now either basically.So I am told.

But,tough cookies.

I guess if I were in your shoes,I would make sure that I was with my D as much as I could be so that she knows I am there for her.You are in a tough bind though and there's no easy answers.I am sure you will do the best you can for her.That is all any of us can do with what we are given in this life.Hang in there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

O

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Salerio:
<strong>I suppose what I am trying to say is that even trying to stick 100% to facts, our D will have a very negative view of her mother.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh well. In measured doses, this is exactly what your wife needs.

Just make sure she has a positive view of her father. This should be easy.

Seriously, I suggest you tell the truth, but not openly characterize her Mom or her "friend" as bad, crazy, making mistakes, whatever. This ruins the moment when your daughter figures it out on her own. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Your daughter is likely perceptive. Concentrate on being a good Dad and let the cards fall where they may. If you act on your good judgement, things will turn out the best they can.

Thanks WAT

That is what I am going to do. I don't like the fact that it will upset D, but it is better that at least she has certainty on one side and the topic is open for her to discuss and question.

WW will have to suffer the consequences of her actions in this regard, and unfortunately that may require some pain for our D - but I am realising that that pain is going to be there anyhow - the sooner and better I manage it, the better for our D.

Thanks

Take care of yourself so you can take care of your D. Typing into MB in the middle of the night shows a lot of stress -- I know!
Cherished

my middle of the night isn't necessarily the same as yours ;-)

Just an update. WW has been away with OM since last Sunday. Tonight I talked to our D. Just asked her if she knew what was happening with Mom and I. She said yes but didn't answer when I asked her what, just buried herself in my shoulder. I told her how much I love her and will always love her and that any problems with her Mom and me are nothing to do with her - not her fault in any way. I told her she can talk to me any time and ask me any questions. I told her I knew that OM was with them when WW took D to her mothers some weeks back. I told her that she can always call me if she is unhappy and I will come get her - she doesn't have to be in this mans company if she doesn't want to. I told her its ok to be upset and to cry or to be confused or angry. That she never had to hide anything from me or be afraid of hurting my feelings - I know what is happening and I will never ever be angry with her for telling the truth.

She cried a little but didn't ask any questions or say much. She went to bed early. I tried to comfort her but also gave her some space. We have the next few days together so I will address it some more over that time.

It broke my heart to see her so upset, and yet be so "grown up" about it all. I'm glad I talked to her with WW 200 miles away, as if she was here I would feel like hitting her (I wouldn't do it - but I would feel like it) for causing such pain to such an innocent child.

I didn't address any of the 'moral issues', or the possible consequences. I will try and do that slowly over the next few days.

I think I did ok, but there isn't any road map for the collateral damage caused by that B*&^%@s selfishness.

^^^bump

Yes, I think you did OK, too. Try not to press her for information so that she feels like a spy.

My H's OW had a mother who had a male friend for several years (as my H told me when before his relationship with her became secretive -- this guy "was always around"), and then the mother divorced her father and married the guy.

Your D's role model, whether you like it or not, is her mother. If you try to put her down, your D may feel attacked as well.

Cherished

<small>[ July 30, 2004, 06:49 AM: Message edited by: Cherished ]</small>