GC,

The references to Biblical "heroes" have nothing to do with "getting away" with anything. The references have everything to do with repentence and forgiveness.

If you wish to expound on what moral authority guides your life, the board would benefit from it, I am sure. Aristotle, Confucious, secular humanism, or whatever, would all add to the level of discourse on the subject of infidelity.

Best regards.

Guidance, I do not think the stern responses that come out in threads like this are sanctimonious. They may be rough, and those of us who have been hurt might inadvertently vent a little bit more than we ought to.

However, from a religious perspective, we're not talking about people who want to stop sinning and need forgiveness. We're dealing with people who want to keep doing it and want to find loopholes and excuses that make it all okay.

--
Whoever is unjust, let him be unjust still.
Whoever is righteous, let him be righteous still.
Whoever is filthy, let him be filthy still.
Listen to the words long written down
When the man comes around.

Johnny Cash

Guidance,
I do not sit in judgement of Cheffy. I do not say she will not be forgiven because if she is not then neither are you or me.

Perhaps some comments were "strong" but I do believe that they were said initially with good intentions. But we all know you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make them drink. However, some of the comments made by Cheffy did need to be challanged. I'm sure even you would agree that in trying to help someone you do ask them to think in alternative ways.

As far as sin, degrees of sin and even ignoring one's owns sins go--I do not think there is one person on this site that thinks they are perfect or even guilt-free (sinsless)concerning the problems in their marriages. Everyone here is trying to do the right thing. And once again, Jesus answered the crowd concerning divorce by saying that because of the hardening of their hearts would he allow divorce for one reason and that reason would be adultery.

I admire these people here fighting for their marriages to survive inspite of adultery. The one thing that they cannot be called is "unforgiving"!

I believe that God forgives each and everyone of us as long as we are repentent.

Graycloud,

Now why didn't you start quoting Johnny Cash from the start....We could have avoided some of these back-and-forth postings?!

I agree that there are instances of individuals blantantly doing the wrong thing and trying to justify it. However, it was clear from my reception by some that whether a wrong was done years ago and forgiven didn't matter. That goes against even secular mores of western culture.

Further, we only see the surface of the issue, if even that, from the descriptions of those telling the stories of their situations.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, bad advice was given, due to this lack of understanding, to the OW that I had the misfortune of meeting. She took a wrong course, which cost her in court. Of course, the advice ended up hurting more people.

My point is for those who dare to give advice to be mindful that they are opining on things that are not necessarily as concise and clear cut as presented. Moreover, "piling on" in a certain tone is not the most effective method of persuasion. Finally, understand forgiveness.

Anyway, thank you for the discussion. I understand your position.

Huh??

Guidance:

Christianity doesn't have a monopoly on the concepts you outlined, any more than for2ne cookies have one on the profundities they contain. ...Sorry. I'm an atheist, and there are times when...

Cheffy:

Partially in apology 2 Guide, I will nevertheless acknowledge that what he says is true - even the "sin" of infidelity can (and should) be 4given. I think if either one of you hangs around here long enough, you will realize that the single most powerful, IMMEDIATE tack that people take here is one of compassion. And remember, Guide, many of Jesus' teachings were presented in a fashion that the recipient took as an attack. Now, even ol' 2long wouldn't put himself on the level of Jesus, though he compelled all of us 2 do just that. But I hope you see my point.

Not that he needs me 2 come 2 his defense, but WAT has been here since the ground was still warm 2 the touch. He's been through a lot, and he's recovered his sanity from one of the worst kinds of betrayals one could imagine. My hat will remain off 2 him.

Cheffy: Boiling my "points" 2 you down 2 one memorable 2uote:

"Happiness is not getting what you want, it's wanting what you have."

I think that 2uote sums up the points Guidance was trying 2 make from the Bible 2uite well. I've used it, as have other MBers, 2 try 2 make this point 2 WSs like yourself (and there are a great many like yourself - you may be "special", but you are far from uni2ue):

Your life, what you've built, who you've M'd, the kids you raised, is where your present and fu2re happiness lies. Not some Don 2uixote out there on the internet or wherever.

Stop grasping at fantasy straws. Reach out for what you already have. If you change your atti2de, those around you will respond. Even blossom.

It can be beautiful, like it once was. The fantasy will only get ugly when the romance ends. And it will end.

I will say again: This site is for people, BSs and WSs alike, 2 rebuild their marriages. It's not a place for support in chasing rainbows. You will rightfully be chastized for believing that their's pot at the end of the raindbow (and it's illegal anyway).

Either go someplace like www.gloryb.com for your support, or learn how 2 feel the compassion in the righteous indignation.

-ol' 2long

been/there-done/that,

I appreciate the greater detail. It
sounds like we basically agree.

I don't question the individual motivations for any one posting. As in the preceding post to Graycloud, I think it is important for those who post to use greater discretion. Going over the top with emotion hurts more than it helps, in my estimation.

Thank you again for your response. I think we agree in principle more than we disagree.

Guidance, I'm afraid I can't name the moral authority that guides my life. I was raised in a Christian household. I was unable to remain a Christian when I became an adult. I wish I could have faith in a higher power, and I try to. I even pray. But I usually don't believe anybody is listening.

One time, many years ago, my wife sang me that old song, I think it was The Mamas and the Papas - "Each night before I go to bed, my baby, say a little prayer for me, my baby..." I follow that request to this day, even when I feel I'm talking to the walls.

I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your reference earlier, and I did not mean to trivialize anything in the bible by calling people heroes.

You may have noticed I like music. It's funny, my soul feels more at peace from listening to a John Coltrane record than anything I've ever experienced in a church. Listen to "A Love Supreme" and see if you don't feel like you've had a religious experience!

I guess it would be fair say I try to be a good Christian, even though I'm not a believer and I don't devote my time to a religion. I could give more of myself though. I was at the barber one day a few years ago, and some women brought a group of severely challenged adult men in for haircuts. I was deeply humbled watching these women care for these men. I think about them all the time. Now that was holy!

GC

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Guidance:
<strong> ....As I mentioned in an earlier post, bad advice was given, due to this lack of understanding, to the OW that I had the misfortune of meeting. She took a wrong course, which cost her in court. Of course, the advice ended up hurting more people.

My point is for those who dare to give advice to be mindful that they are opining on things that are not necessarily as concise and clear cut as presented. Moreover, "piling on" in a certain tone is not the most effective method of persuasion. Finally, understand forgiveness.....
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Guidance,
Could you please clarify what you mean by bad advice? What kind of advice was the OW seeking? Was she the WS and you the OP?

Can you please share your story?

Thanks,
L.

<small>[ July 26, 2004, 01:06 AM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

Guidance,
Your posts are articulate and well written.

You are wrong to assume that all are Christian here and you are patronizing, as not a Christan yourself, to attempt to use Bibilical examples in your arguments to try to convince us of your point of view.

I think that you are blessed in having a state of forgiveness in your relationship with your daughter and XW. It is probably more due to your not having ended up with your affair partner. Since she dumped you and you still chose to move on to D they probably felt a bit more compassion for your 'broken heart'. I would think there may have been some pride in there that kept you from going back and trying to work it out with your XW. Or was it lack of character, and ability to forgive on your part for your Xwife's part in the demise of your marriage?

Now you have a new wife and step child. Someone elses child, not yours, and you have to work on making it work. There are always difficult adjustment that need to be made in learning to be step parents and step kids. It doesn't come as naturally as with your own flesh and blood. You would have had that had you chosen to rebuild with the family you helped to create.

Why don't you start a thread to explain why you are here: your story. We now understand that your OW dumped you in favor of her H. That she had a court case against you and you won. You believe that people here gave her flawed advice.

This is a marriage building site...are you trying to ensure that your new marriage doesn't fall into similar traps as your last? I hope so.

What is your purpose for being here? I assume your visiting here is only temporary.

Thought the discussion the last few days was interesting. It shows that people can have different views and not always agree, or be wrong if they disagree.

Guidance, that is a good name for you. I will look for your posts and advice.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Cheffy:
<strong> Thought the discussion the last few days was interesting. It shows that people can have different views and not always agree, or be wrong if they disagree.

Guidance, that is a good name for you. I will look for your posts and advice. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WOW...that is just what this MARRIAGE BUILDING site needs...a WS looking for validation in her affair(s) and a person encouraging the wayward behavior. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Can you say Holy Moly?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

committed

<small>[ July 27, 2004, 09:05 AM: Message edited by: committedandlovingit ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Cheffy:
<strong> Thought the discussion the last few days was interesting. It shows that people can have different views and not always agree, or be wrong if they disagree.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Cheffy, it shows no such thing. All the babble and moral relativism in the world will not justify the unjustifiable. There really is a right and there is a wrong, and it is WRONG to have an affair and leave your family to chase your internet boyfriend like a cat in heat.

Guidance,

You wrote, "I have since remarried someone who is wonderful. She has a child who is 9, and I am gradually learning to like."
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> You married someone who's kid you did not like?

...

<small>[ July 27, 2004, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: Tom Joad ]</small>

You say you couldn't be with a married man. You seem to be able to grasp that there is something wrong with violating the sanctity of someone elses marriage. Then why would you be with a man who would be with a a married woman? Why would you expend all this energy tearing apeart yur marriage instead of using it to build happieness with your husband. Go back and read the words that you wrote to the fantasy man on the other end of the computer. Have you communivated with such intimacty and passion with your husband lately, or ever.

You want someone here to say "its OK - go be happy - you owe it to yourself". You want someone here to validate your destructive, selfish choices. I suspect you will not find it!

My wife chose me and our family over her internet boyfriend. And I chose to forgive. But I can't forget. I try, but it still hurts 1 1/2 years later.