Noodle: I don't know your full story. I don't know how long it has been since dday. For that I apologize.

I am also the BS. So I know the hurt and pain you talk of. I know the feelings and desire to exact revenge on OP. I can also see from your writing that you are smart enough not to act on these feelings.

But, there is something that I don't see here. I don't see anyone else posting to you that you need to get help. Now don't take that wrong, I'm not condemning you (I just don't know your situation). I realized early on that I would have a problem resenting my FWW for what she had done. I got myself an IC and worked through these issues. You may want to do something like that in due time.

Best of luck with your pregancy. Our prayers go out to you. Once your baby enters this world, cherish him or her.

RH

The trouble with noodle getting help is that she's probably way smarter than the average therapist. She is going to need someone quite exceptional, who will be able to keep up with her.

Blessed time:

It's ironic that you mention the ONS from the perspective of a spouse suffering through the torment of a long term affair. I have been known to say that I would almost have preferred a "soul mate" type affair because I can sort of reconcile it. There is a logic to it..a deeply flawed logic..but it does manage to hold water in a very leaky container. I can't find any rhyme or reason to console myself with in a ONS situation.
BS: "So...you had sex with a complete stranger..you kissed her mouth and took off your clothes and her clothes and put your naked self inside her?"

WS: "Yes, but it didn't meant nothing to me."

BS: "So by implication your children and myself mean less than nothing to you, and yet you feel it is appropriate to ask me to spend the rest of my life building a marriage with you?"

I know I wouldn't truly rather have a long term affair to deal with - neither choice is acceptable. It isn't WONDERFULL to find out you have been betrayed under any circumstances.

I have noticed a trend of entitlement in the general WS population.
"I deserve to be happy." *Even if it is at the expense of someone who has no choice in the matter*

"I deserve to be forgiven because I am sorry" *However I'd like it to be on my terms and within a specific amount of time..see above statement for justification*

So many highly subjective terms flying about willy nilly. When is a person forgiven? How does that transaction take place and what does it entail? If I do not seek a pound of your flesh have I forgiven you by default? How about if I am willing to build around your crime? If I say that I forgive you have I just given you carte blanche to act as though this had never happened? Tricky...very tricky. Recovery? Resolved? None of these terms mean the same thing in context of an infidelity that they would in general usage.

Recovering H:

It has been 16 mo since Dday ..probably 4 months since the last fog episode.

Although I do tend to wax philosophical, I must disagree with you. A persons intellect will give them the ability to make Hannibal Lector look pedestrian..it will never act as a moral compass.

It may suprise you that both my husband and I have spent time on the couch so to speak, both in IC and MC..and it is ongoing. It is partially as a result of this that I acknowledged a truth that ruffled my feathers. By my definition of the term..there is no resolve and nothing to work through. Only a decision to make. I find myself in the position of being dealt a sadistic choice. Either my husband means enough to me to continue without regard for the knowledge that I have been handed regarding my value to him..or I can leave him. Period. This is ultimately what it comes down to. Everyone will draw their lines in a different patch of sand..but that is the bottom line.

Contributing to this choice is the knowledge that our society will not exact justice, and my moral position will not allow me vengeance. So, in short..the debt can not be paid by them. Also..due to loss of trust, the debt incurs interest and manages to become even greater still ex post facto.

It must also be considered that the WS are not the only candidates for *fog*. A decision to trust someone not worthy of it may literally cost your life. This will never be more apparent than when sitting in an office..watching your own heartbeat through your shirt while awaiting your fate with regard to STD's.

Bringing a child into the midst of all of this is pretty much one of the least resposible things I could have done. It is no more the childs job to be my consolation than to be my scapegoat. The child will need to be loved, nurtured, and raised. I don't have it in me. My energy is not unlimited. If I neglect my child in favor of my marriage..I am at fault. I I neglect my marriage in favor of my child, it will crumble. Yet another situation with no good options. Too much intellect..too much need for intellect and logic and decision making and critical thinking. But those emotions are there as well..selfish and demanding, and not unlike a little girl whining and stomping her feet..YOU CHEATED!! I'M TELLING!! Ah if only there were someone to tell. So I take solace in my husband where I am able..provide it to him in turn, but what he has done stands between us and always will. It is a fractured structure [say that 5 times fast] apply pressure and it will shatter. It is still a pretty glass ball thanks to many hours of reconstruction..but oh so very fragile. Dangerous. Worth it? We'll see.

In medias res -- Noodle

I'm in absolute awe of your strength and courage Noodle. Your abilty to express the depths of your pain has reached into my soul.I feel honoured to have read your words...I'm grateful you have shared your most personal of thoughts.

I look back to reflect at a time in my recovery...I swear if there was a clinical term for it...it would have to be called something as such as soul sickness.The pain is unbearable and you feel so alone with it.I too when I was there would have sooner laid myself upon a sword and let my life ebb away...then suffer at the hands of Adultry again.

I have no words of wisdom for you nor a wand to wish away your hurt.I do have though my belief, that you have made a leap forward in your personal recovery....You have aknowleged what you are feeling. You have accepted you are feeling these emotions and they hurt like hell.

Take it one step further Noodle and talk to someome. We are human, writing is great...but we also have a centre in our brains that wants us to talk...to verbalise...find someone to listen...whether that be a face to face counsellor or an anomynous helpline TC..lay it all out there and empower yourself.


Rid yourself of this soul sickness...and learn to love yourself again.

Your worth it.

Max


edit...we must have posted around the same time..I see you are in IC...have you expressed these thoughts to your IC as you have laid them out here?

<small>[ July 24, 2004, 12:26 AM: Message edited by: madmax ]</small>

Noodle,
Just one more thanks here from another BS amazed at how well you put words to the feelings.

Initially we are shocked, but in our state of shock the fight or flight response kicks in. Those of us who don't run, pour our energy into 'winnning' back our spouse. Later, we wonder 'Did I actually think this was a game I could win? Stupid, the game has already been played and noone asked me to play. I was the one on the sideline that never got chosen to a team.' It is infuriating that decisions were made that so drastically affected YOUR life and your spouse let someone else help with the decision making.

I also watch in sig lines to see how long it takes before the WS finally 'tells all'. Mine took extra long but I've come to believe 6 mos. is about average. So in these 6 months, we are plan A'ing like crazy, listening to our spouse tell us they want to work it out(if we're one of the 'lucky' ones), finally we get to the point our brains start to work again and we ask what really happened, things you say don't really add up? BOOM! Back to square one! You just find out that you've been busting you a@! for a liar.
Yes, it is hard being a BS. I know it can't be true but I'm also sure that I'm not the first one that wondered if it wouldn't be easier if he had died. I long for those days that I believed in him and KNEW he loved me, some days I'd have been happy if I could just think that maybe he really cared. The fact is- the rose colored glasses are gone, never to return again.

Living with the knowledge of what has happened is hard. Learning to accept it is even harder. Totally forgetting it- not possible. Believe it or not, not forgetting is a good thing. We don't need to forget that the person we placed on a pedestal is after all a flawed human being, just like us. That's it. I mean, I always knew that I had faults, him too in a way, it's just now I KNOW.

MB principles are great. At times, they just seem horribly unfair. Nothing about this is fair. That's hard to understand, hard to accept, but it just is that way.

I hope you get the peace you are seeking. Finding peace and getting to the point that you are able to relax and feel free to just be 'you' will be hard. I know that peace was hard for me because first I had to realize that I am not the 'I' that existed before all this. There is sadness and grief at times for the 'I' that was lost. In fact, at times it feels like there was a death after all. I could go on and on. It is a circle. The anger, yes but HE killed the old me, back to top of page and start over....

I've rambled on for too long. I know. I understand. I thank you for putting those thoughts out there. May this new babe bring the joy you deserve.

(One last thing. I felt like I'd been hit w a 2X4 when told I was pregnant w the third child, felt guilty for not being excited. It went away w/ his birth. Almost 14 yrs later and that seems like yesterday. He's a whirlwind that's hardly even given me time to remember those days and doubts about having another totally unplanned.)

MM

Dear Noodle,

- If you ever do the Enneagram test I wouldn't be surprised you'd come up with the "helper" type. If you read what happens to the frustrated helper type you'll see what the dark side is there. It helped me a lot to know about this.
- I didn't set my boundaries. That made me very angry inside. Those angry thoughts haunted me until I started expressing my needs.
- Does a deeply hidden feeling "if I ever tell what is REALLY on my mind everybody will think I am a monster" ring a bell ?
- Do you "mill" your feelings through your mind over and over again to make any sense out of them (which rarely works) until you become nervous and uneasy ?
- Was Mr Spock from the old Star Trek series your favorite at the time? (although given our age difference you might not have seen the series <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

My point is.. if you are somewhat like me and I have the feeling you are.. then something is very wrong. You sound like you are always giving and not much is coming back. Why are you putting up with that?
There is some of that "maybe I'd be better off dead, nobody cares for me anyway" feeling in your words.

You are deeply disappointed in your H. But I truely think it's time for you to get your life back together now. Forgive him. Let it go. He's not perfect and neither are you. He was a thoughtless idiot but if you're still with him there must be things you still love him for. If he has done real efforts to change, if you have expressed your needs to him in a way that he can understand (some translation is needed sometimes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ), then what keeps nagging at you?
If him being in the military is a key problem - can he not get himself another job (POJA, yep)?

I'm just brainstorming here dear Noodle. Please let me know if any of this is helping you. You seem to be in a dark place where you think no help can ever be given to you and you need to do everything yourself. It's not like that unless we are so stubborn to keep it like that.

You are an intelligent person with deep emotions. I think you are someone I'd like to know better. Even if it's just to have you kick my a** or so that I can kick yours <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> when we are "at it again" and giving too much for our own good.

Hugs from the other side of the ocean,
Brownhair

<small>[ August 06, 2004, 03:41 AM: Message edited by: brownhair ]</small>

:::: So I take solace in my husband where I am able..provide it to him in turn, but what he has done stands between us and always will.

This is the most that can be hoped for, for now. I'm not much of a role model, but I know that people do recover (I'm still afraid that I won't). But my mother recovered and went on to have 50 happy yrs of marriage afterwards.

Noodle, You have an outstanding grasp on this business. You are without a doubt the most insightful poster that I've come across. You scare me with your wisdom. You explain to me why I'm still hurting so much.

I'm probably not the only one who is thinking that there's a book in you. I'm wondering whether you would give this some serious consideration (yes I know you have heaps of spare time right now!!). I believe you have a huge amount to offer others caught up in this under side of life. Maybe in a year or two you could think about it?

Btw, I totally understand your feelings about a ONS. My H's A was similarly thoughtless. Not a "soul mate" A - but a very ugly situation with an Asian girl half his age, playing him for a fool, for monetary gain (we live in Asia). At least we managed 30 years of marital bliss before this happened - so in some ways I feel that was my life and now it's just a matter of getting thru the rest of it until oblivion releases me from the disappointment.

It's the belief that I miss more than the trust. To go from having a husband that everyone loved and admired to having a 50+ idiot, is quite a come down from what I had.

It's hard for me to believe that the love of my life could risk the wonderful relationship we shared, and the great life we'd built, for something so totally alien and false. He pretty much got nothing from the girl (and she got nothing from him) but 10 weeks was given over to her and there was intimacy and there was a huge betrayal of me and everything he believed in. And it cannot be erased. The damage is done and I found out that I wasn't special and he wasn't special and we were just like everyone else. And now I'm sitting on a web site that I never imagined I'd be on, reading the incredible outpourings of people like you.

You made me cry last nite and tonight's addition made my FWH cry. He said you are wrong about WS's expecting forgiveness for saying they are sorry. He never expects to be forgiven - he really gets it that it's unforgivable.

Noodle thank you for this post. Your words, your expression of your current state so clearly define the residual effect of this betrayal called "infidelity".

God Bless you in your recovery.

<small>[ July 24, 2004, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: FamilyMatters ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by noodle:
It is a fractured structure [say that 5 times fast] apply pressure and it will shatter. It is still a pretty glass ball thanks to many hours of reconstruction..but oh so very fragile. Dangerous. Worth it? We'll see.

In medias res -- Noodle </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I love imagery.

Imagery can best express the labyrinth of an emotional puzzle.

I said this to WH during recovery:

"You have torn the wings off a beautiful butterfly. You want to glue the wings back on and hope she will fly."

What saved me? What restored me to the serenity in my marriage?

Not my intellect. Although I tried and tried to pound that square peg into that round hole ... I just could not make the pieces fit back together.

Your marriage was once a round peg and a round hole. And now it isn't. It no longer fits.

This is the death of your old marriage paradigm. It's a post-mortum. Your marriage is not ever going to be what it was. And, since your pre-A marriage was a good one ... the death of that marriage is gruesome.

A death. You are grieving.

And yet, there is an upcomming birth you are not ready to accept with uncomplicated emotional ease.

It is a major source of emotional confusion to celebrate a birth all the while grieving a death.

Your intellect is trying to find a place to accept the unacceptable.

There is no place like that.

The birth of your new marriage will be spiritually founded. Not intellectually constructed.

The Grace born of the new marriage will come to you.

It is not in your mind.
You cannot will Grace inside yourself.

It comes to you.
You remain open. That's it.

Grace is a gift. You receive, you do not grab.

You cannot talk or reason with Grace to hurry up and enter your heart.

You wait. You remain open. You grieve. You live.

Blessings,

Pep

<small>[ July 24, 2004, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Dear Anyname,
It makes me cringe to read what you wrote - "..so in some ways I feel that was my life and now it's just a matter of getting thru the rest of it until oblivion releases me from the disappointment."

Dear Noodle,
There is so much pain and hurt in what you write. I don't think it's wisdom like Anyname says - I hope it's just what you named it, a very eloquent rant.

Dear Ladies, please tell me these dark thoughts belong in the "my darkest thoughts in my lowest moments" book.

Yes Noodle, you should write a book, you have a James Joycian style that is an excellent means to express feelings and "draw the picture" of what is going on inside of your head. I just wish English was my native tongue to be able to put things that eloquently.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

What I'm missing from both your postings is believing there is a "next level". I truely hope you will get there, this insane video game might keep us trapped on level one but there are other levels. Perhaps it seems like you've been "killed" so many times in this level that you don't believe that you will ever reach the next level, or that a next level even exist and is just an invention of raving idiots that can't face reality.

Don't give away your power like this. Don't accept that "oh well, it'll just have to do, I'll just have to live with this" - there are always choices. Loving help is what you both need. Your H's didn't turn into wonderful therapists overnight because they had an A and now have to "make up for it". So don't wait around for them to make your pain magically disappear. Your mind says "of course I don't expect H to do this, he couldn't" but it's my guess your emotions and that deeply hurt inner child say "yes.. please H, why don't you make it all go away? You caused it, now take it away."

Please please get on your knees and give this pain and hurt and doubt to a higher power than your H's. I don't know if there is any higher power that you believe in, but I do believe it's vital to turn there for help. It will make your personal recovery to a "whole" person instead of "two" so much easier and faster.

To find real forgiveness in yourself will make you rise to the next level. There is no faking this. You feel it or you don't. It is the test we are all put through. It's easy to be loving and understanding when all is well in our little world and H (or W) are Mister or Mrs Wonderful. The real test is to find forgiveness and love in ourselves when it seems we're not getting any of that, not the way we want it anyway.

Please give me some positive feedback here. There is so much pain and negativity in your postings and so little hope - I sincerely hope these are, like I said, your darkest thoughts in your lowest and loneliest hour.

(((Anyname))) (((Noodle)))
Brownhair

Noodle, I'm not sure what to add here. As Pep stated, your imagery expresses so eloquently what so many of us are feeling. I actually was contemplating starting a thread for myself today titled, "Can we REALLY recover from an A?" Maybe I still will.

My M was pretty darn good before my H decided to blow it to bits. I, like you, hate the fact that he had sex with another woman. Several months ago when we laid in bed and the grief was overwhelming over his sexual betrayal, I sobbed and said over and over as he held me, "But you were my H. We made vows to each other." The pain might be a little less, but the horror of this A still haunts me daily. And I know H would be happy if we never spoke of it again. He is trying to move forward and forget OW and what he did. I am just trying to overcome the worst trauma of my life, not knowing if it's even possible while being with the the one who caused it.

I've written on here before what I have gotten from H's A. I now know what betrayal feels like. I now know what it feels like to have an enemy. OW was my enemy. She wanted to steal my H and my life, and worse than that, rip my boys' security away from them. I understand now why adultery is one of the 10 commandments. It is an evil act because of what it does to the people involved, making them do incredibly cruel things, and because of the incredible pain it causes to us.

Finally, what is worse, a ONS or a IN-LOVE A? They are obviously both bad. In our case H thought he was in-love. So now I have the realization that he experienced that state of being with another woman. That now that is his memory, not our in-love 27 yrs. ago. I now have the image of him not just "F"ing OW, but making love with OW. Experiencing great sex with all the emotions of an in-love state. We have had excellant sex since d-day, but will I ever feel like we are making love again?

I could go on and on about what you wrote. I am in a place that someone else put me in, a place that I don't want to be in. This MB site and the wonderful people here helped me get through the pain, and are still helping me. Yet sometimes I wonder if I would have been better off never hearing about MB. Yes, it is because of MB that we are still Med. Yet I will always wonder what it would have been like if H played out his fantasy. Would he have ended up with the love of his life? Or would he have really realized that he gave up the love of his life? Right now he is with me, he is very remorseful. Yet, I'm not sure I feel valuable. Like this man is doing whatever it takes to make it up to me. He is still dealing with giving up his fantasy love. How much longer do I Plan A? I want H to Plan A ME.

I can't imagine going through what you are going through. My boys are teenagers which I think is easier. I hope that what the truly recovered folks here are saying can happen. If it weren't for my boys we probably wouldn't have stuck this out. I hope one day those of us fighting this fight will realize it was worth it.

Thanks for expressing what so many of us our feeling inside. CV

Noodle,

Here are a few of my thoughts on your recent post.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So many highly subjective terms flying about willy nilly. When is a person forgiven? How does that transaction take place and what does it entail? If I do not seek a pound of your flesh have I forgiven you by default? How about if I am willing to build around your crime? If I say that I forgive you have I just given you carte blanche to act as though this had never happened? Tricky...very tricky. Recovery? Resolved? None of these terms mean the same thing in context of an infidelity that they would in general usage.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The transaction of forgiveness is unique person to person, and situation to situation. Not exacting vengeance is not an indication of forgiveness. It is also not an indication of weakness. Vengeance and forgiveness are two separate things, though appear to go hand in hand since they typically manifest in the same situation.

Forgiveness has NOTHING to do with the transgressor, only the transgressed. Not extracting the pound of flesh is mercy, the opposite of vengeance. Forgiveness is your own internal mercy for YOUR soul.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Contributing to this choice is the knowledge that our society will not exact justice, and my moral position will not allow me vengeance. So, in short..the debt can not be paid by them. Also..due to loss of trust, the debt incurs interest and manages to become even greater still ex post facto.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">EXACTLY right. Society does a poor job of justice in moral infractions. Your moral character precludes vengeance. The debt will NEVER be paid. Forgiveness is the key, it is the valve by which you will release this debt you are owed. It has NOTHING to do with your WH and everything to do with YOU. The Spiritual energy generated for an infraction of this magnitude with no outlet due to your moral compass will kill you. A cancerous death. You forgive to save your own soul from this. You did not deserve it and are not morally able (thankfully and to your credit) to make it right. How cruel a joke would that be if those of fine and noble character had to suffer simply because they others refused to ignore the compass that guides them?

Forgiveness is the only way out of the situation that will lead you to peace. You MUST forgive him, for your own sake, NOT his. It is how we deal with a situation that is unfair when we are not willing to do wrong, or seek retribution.

When does the transaction take place? What is the timeline? I can’t answer that for you because I am not you. It becomes a conscious choice you have to make – to forgive. It is not a feeling, though feelings will result when you have done it. It will take place by degree. It will be repetitive and make you want to just quit some days. But when you have done it, you will know. The infraction will become to you an event, almost an old story of sadness you know of without firing up the negative spiritual energy that it does now. Then you will have peace and will have forgiven.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It may suprise you that both my husband and I have spent time on the couch so to speak, both in IC and MC..and it is ongoing. It is partially as a result of this that I acknowledged a truth that ruffled my feathers. By my definition of the term..there is no resolve and nothing to work through. Only a decision to make. I find myself in the position of being dealt a sadistic choice. Either my husband means enough to me to continue without regard for the knowledge that I have been handed regarding my value to him..or I can leave him. Period. This is ultimately what it comes down to. Everyone will draw their lines in a different patch of sand..but that is the bottom line.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is EXACTLY right. There is no repayment for an infraction of this nature. Life was a certain way before this event, then in an instant of indiscretion and lunacy, it is different forevermore. You have seen the core of the issue that is hard to discern and harder to grapple.

Only a decision to make.

And a VERY hard one. If you choose to forgive, what happens to YOUR soul. It is an admission that your lines in the sand, which were really in the concrete for you and only sand for your spouse, are movable under certain circumstances. Would you shield your husband if he committed murder? Is it wrong for anyone to murder, but acceptable for your husband because he had a need to be met? In a murder, the victim is deceased. The only person who can truly forgive the transgressor. So there is no circumstance under which that is OK. The transgressed cannot waive the debt. In an affair, the victim is alive and well. And far worse than another crime, such as stealing, the transgressed is faced with the choice to live with the transgressor in intimacy “for the good of the family” and for the rest of their days. The ramifications of infidelity are far reaching and amazing. Truly, the only resolution of it comes to a choice.

Accept him – and live with all the feelings and memories that that entails.
Leave him – and live with all the feelings and memories that that entails.

The interesting thing is that neither choice is wrong and neither choice is free of pain. What a wicked twist of fate for the BS. We have been thrown into some Mephistopholic game show – door number one SORROW AND PAIN or door number two SORROW AND PAIN.

Choose either one, but FORGIVE for your own sake. You cannot avoid the sorrow and pain that has been handed you. It was handed to you only because you have a fine and noble character, you own "lines in concrete." Otherwise, the table would be turned. But forgiveness is the only means available to grapple with it without sacrificing your fine and noble character. What price that? Ask any truly repentant wayward spouse who has an inkling of what they have done if they would love the opportunity to remove the blemish of the affair on their character.

Which one do you choose? Only you can answer that. It wholly depends on what you are willing to forgive.

NCWalker

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Accept him – and live with all the feelings and memories that that entails.
Leave him – and live with all the feelings and memories that that entails.

The interesting thing is that neither choice is wrong and neither choice is free of pain. What a wicked twist of fate for the BS. We have been thrown into some Mephistopholic game show – door number one SORROW AND PAIN or door number two SORROW AND PAIN.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well put.

With either choice though, the sorrow and pain WILL eventually lift.

Surviving this WILL make us stronger, making it work WILL make us wiser.

So much of what NCW said is true. We have to learn to LET THIS GO AND TRULY FORGIVE. The A is over, all the lies, betrayal, hurt pain, and more lies, died with it. If we keep rehashing it over and over in our minds, doesn't it continue to bind us ?

I'm starting to hear a common ring as this thread gets longer, and I'm sensing A LOT of resentment. Recovery is the responsibility of both the WS and the BS. The most important thing the BS should be working through is overcoming RESENTMENT. Am I the only one that keeps reading that chapter ?

I spend 90% of my time in TODAY, RIGHT NOW, THIS MINUTE. 10% of the time, I feel that familiar knot in my stomach, knowing something profoundly tragic has happened to me. But I'll keep working at this, maybe in time it will be 99%.

Keep moving forward, rehashing the pain OVER and OVER that comes with infidelity isn't healing anyone, BS OR WS.

Betrayed, I agree with you that eventually we do have to live in the NOW, whatever our choice ends up being. Those of us who have a choice. Yet I also believe we have to allow ourselves to go through these stages of loss and grief. What we BSs have gone through does produce PTSD symptoms. That is a real mental disorder. When I read that it flipped me out. Yet we can't just get over those symptoms, caused by this trauma. I'm not saying you are saying that. These are just thoughts I've had on this subject. For myself, if I don't allow myself to feel what I feel, I'm afraid it will bite me in the end.

No, I don't want to get stuck in this place. But H and I haven't even accomplished Steve Harley's assignment to us, to clean out the wound by going through the affair. I know I am one of those BSs that will need to do that. To see the extent of the betrayal before I can really forgive and hopefully heal. CV

<small>[ July 26, 2004, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

I think you touched a nerve Pep.

I saw this coming.

I think your posts are brutally honest, and usually right on target.

You believe in tough love, and you've helped more than your fair share of folks.

I know you can handle yourself, just thought I'd chime in from the peanut gallery.

Sorry Noodle.

Hey there CV !
How you been doing ?

You said :
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yet I also believe we have to allow ourselves to go through these stages of loss and grief. What we BSs have gone through does produce PTSD symptoms. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I absolutely agree with you. I was just trying to point out the difference between working THROUGH the pain and sorrow as opposed to wallowing in it.

Does that make any sense ? I was THE most guilty of this. I dwelled on it, it consumed me.
One day H and I really got into some words because it had been like 3 days in a row I kept rehashing and rehashing...and he finally looked me squarely in the eyes and said this ," BIJ, if you think going over this every day over and over will help get you over what has happened, that is what we will do, we will forget about the rest of our lives, and talk about nothing but this, we'll keep going over it, over and over again, is that what you need to do to get through this ?"

That's when I realized I was living 90% in what happened, and 10% in the here and now. By spending SO much time there, I was preventing myself AND my H from rebuilding anything. It was like Dday over and over.

CV, don't wait too much longer to go over the A, if you decide that is what you need to do, finding out details later down the road has a tendency to open freshly healing wounds, like pouring salt in them.

I know you'll be fine, I've watched you fight for several months now. You've got spirit and determination.

Noodle: I'm not sure what you were disagreeing with me about. All I told you was that you needed help. You tell me that you and H have "been on the couch." So it sounds like you tried to get help, but it didn't/isn't working, as you are resenting the he!! out of H for what he did. I'm sure the emotions and hormones of the pregnancy are compounding this. If the help you asked for isn't working, try something/someone else.

I was going to simply respond, "Where is your faith?" But I'm not sure that would have been helpful. I think NCWalker hit the points exactly. You need to decide if you will forgive him. If you can't forgive him, then the choice is obvious, you choose to leave him (and under the Bible that is a valid reason for breaking up a marriage).

Good luck noodles, I truly wish you the best as I don't think there is anything more I can help you with, except to pray for your care and guidance (if you would like that?)

God Bless!
RH

:::: I think NCWalker hit the points exactly. You need to decide if you will forgive him. If you can't forgive him, then the choice is obvious, you choose to leave him (and under the Bible that is a valid reason for breaking up a marriage).

I think some people just hang in there, waiting, waiting, waiting for forgiveness to happen. Time heals, we are told. And leaving a marriage is not always easy, especially if the WS doesn't want you to leave. So you just carry on hoping that when enough time passes, your pain will deminish - and I think it does to some extent. It takes a very long time to put the old life to bed, in your head, and accept things as are they are.

I have really liked all the comments on this thread - and I just wanted to say that I now have some days that are happy. It's amazing to me that on some days the event goes to the bottom of the forum - and then some trigger thought/place/person posts it back up to the top. But eventually it has to lose ground - it does!!!

anyname.... Time heals, we are told.

Its really what we do with that time that counts.

I found myself for quite some time telling myself over and over again...I can't take anymore...I just can't take anymore.I'm too damm exhausted. I was totally f***ed over. I was running around in circles.

It wasn't until I realised...I could take as much as I wanted too, as much as I would let myself take and it didn't matter how much it hurt...Id just take it.

My change came when my timing was right, when that time found me...I aint taking no more..I dont won't to take anymore.I dont have to take anymore.

We are all experts in our own pain...nobody knows it like we do...use that expertiseto help free yourself.

My personal healing began...our marital recovery was a natural consequence of that.

Forgiveness came.It released me from them chains.

I will never get over my husbands behaviour, I will never forget...Its a part of me of us...I/we will continue to rebuild till the lights go out. Itsa life long process and we are now enjoying the ride.

Our grief becomes a part of us...we will always carry the scar...we will always be able to unlock the pain...but only if we want to. Times of reflection are fine and healthy...remember how you got the scar Max?...hell yeah I do...but guess what Max, you survived. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Max.