Hey guys
I find myself at a junction where I told my WH not to come back home after vacation. I discovered he is still e-mailing OW. We have spent 10 months of trying to recover from his A and the state our M was in prior to A. In my heart I would love him to come back to me but not with all the secrets and lies. I want a loving deep relationship but I'm not sure whether he is in the right mind space for it yet. I think part of me hopes to scare him into changing but I know that I might have to call my owm bluff and go through with it. I desperately need some questions answered.

Question 1: He says he finds it hard not to have contact with OW. She helped him in a time of need now he wants to be there to her help. What a nice guy (tongue firmly in cheek). How do I respond without belittling him?

Question 2; He has offered NC with OW but then lets himself and me down bringing as back to a postion of less trust than before. What to do? How do I know when to trust him? I do not want to be hurt again.

Question 3: He says he loves both of us but wants a life with me. He says you can't tell someone how to feel. I say, you can feel what ever you like but I don't have to live with someone who pines for someone else. Is there a better response?

Question 4: How do you impliment Plan B when he doesn't want to leave? Is it worth the hurt the kids will feel?

Question 5: How do you turn the tide of resentment around? He blames me for my outbursts of anger and pain being destructive to our marriage -I blame him for A causing the problem.

Question 7: How to reconnect and live in a marriage of trust and depth of feeling not pain and gut reactions?

Well, I have so much more to ask but lets leave it there for now. Someone out there please direct me.
S

arty,
WHEW....DEEP BREATH.
You're trying to go too fast. That's where you are missing your target.
Before any of the OTHER things can happen, absoluletly NC must be intact and STAY intact.
He HAS to end contact. It's not possible to RECOVER until that happens.
"OW was there for him when he needed her" ... to what ? contribute to the breakdown of the marriage ? If he's willing to point out the contributions YOU made, he better darn well see her and her 2 cents as well.

I think you're on the threshold of Plan B, which may be in order. Read more about it here. The rest will come if and when contact ends, and the OW is a distant memory.

His "being" there for her when she needs someone is disrespectful to you as a person and as his W.

Wait for some more advise, but I think a lot of people here will repeat the NC a few times over.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by arty:
<strong>
Question 5: How do you turn the tide of resentment around? He blames me for my outbursts of anger and pain being destructive to our marriage -I blame him for A causing the problem.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Arty, the first thing you should do is go into Plan A and start taking responsibility for your own behavior. Of course he blames you for your angry outbursts, you are RESPONSIBLE for them and they need to STOP. You need to stop all lovebusters, all debating, all fighting and try to meet the needs that this OW is meeting.

Every time you lovebust him you push him towards him the OW and make her look more attractive. So when you feel like blasting him, ask yourself whose side you are on? Yours or the OW?

Have you read Surviving an Affair or Lovebusters by Willard Harley? They are very good books that that would help alot. You can buy them pretty cheap on this website.

I have been insisting on NC since D-Day and he always excepts and eventually I find out they have communicated in some way. He feels since they are not sleeping together it is OK.
So, how do I know that NC means NC forever. Or must I go to plan B until he proves himself? Insisting he leaves the family home will make him very angry with me, may push him to OW and most importantly will increase the pain my kids have already suffered.
S

Arty, did you read my post?

Melodylane,
Your right I find my pain, saddness, lonliness and anger often overwhelm me. Even though I often try to fulfill hsi ENs, the thing he remembers are my words that are LB. My excuse is they are not borne to hurt but reflect my lonliness. He claims that they destroy our M. I feel he istrying to blame me for not fulfilling NC agreement.
Tell me about exposing A? I think he would never forgive me if I toild his family. What do you think?
s

Arty, read Melody's post its very important that you start providing the EN's that OW is providing.

You MUST find out what his most important EN's are and start providing them. What can this OW possible be providing that you are not? Separate yourself emotionally from this situation and look at it objectively. If he's willing to discuss his R with OW, ask him in the most non-threatening way what he's getting from the R with OW? You must find out and began to provide it.

If he won't discuss it, do some snooping try to find out. We already know that it's not SF because he's not seeing her right? Go down the list of possibilities. I'm guessing it has more to do with the ease of the relationship, lack of stress and her ability to make him feel appreciated. You can provide his EN's, but you have to do so without any expectations or stress.

Check out Dr. Harleys sections on EN's. I think once you define your H's emotional needs you'll have a good starting point for pulling him out of the fog. As it stands now, your H actually believes the OW is the only person who can provide them, that's why she's still in his life. If you provide his EN's his need for her to be in his life will dissipate.

Easier said than done, but that's my game plan.

Good luck and hang in there.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by arty:
My excuse is they are not borne to hurt but reflect my lonliness. He claims that they destroy our M. I feel he istrying to blame me for not fulfilling NC agreement. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, they are destroying your marriage and you have to stop. Your H is RIGHT. Do you want to be married, Arty? No more excuses, knock it off. No more angry outbursts, disrespectful judgements or demands.

Every time you lovebust him you just make the OW look more attractive and give him new justification to continue his affair. So, start helping YOURSELF for a change.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tell me about exposing A? I think he would never forgive me if I toild his family. What do you think?
s [/qb]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Expose, expose, expose. It is one of the best methods of ending the affair. The affair can't survive long without secrecy. Is the OW married?

<small>[ July 23, 2004, 08:16 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Familmatters,
Thanks for adding your thoughts.
Firstly, he won't tell me details about A. Says it would hurt me too much when I am healed may share more. I think it is still too precious for him.
He is not intersted in filling out EN sheet, regardless I have tried to meet his ENs but get so disponded when it is not resiprocated that I end up in a bad place and LBing.
I have a strong sense of justice and wonder why he is not trying to help heal the pain he has caused in me. Why he is not grateful every day that I have given him a second chance to live with me and his children.
S

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by arty:
<strong>Why he is not grateful every day that I have given him a second chance to live with me and his children.
S </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Arty,

Should he want to come home to a woman who kicks him out and treats him with disrespect and angry outbursts? Should he be grateful for that?

What things are you doing to make him want to stay with you?

Arty, how much reading have you done on the Marriage Builders program? Did you see my post above about the books? Here are some good articles that you can read now:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3550_summary.html

Plan A and Plan B: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

Melody is so right.

Arty all the great stuff your doing is being destroyed by your LB's. People hold onto the bad experiences. In my equation I think one LB cancels out 2 Lovebank deposits, and certain LB's probably cancel out a lot more deposits.

I had to get real control over my emotions.
I'm finally understanding every time I was taking a step forward, I kept shooting myself in the foot with LB's <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

melodylane,
I have not yet kicked him out. I have only told him that I love him and want him. I have said he is a good person who has done bad things. I am sure if I saw regret and willingness to repair on his part my sadness and lonliness would dissolve.
Thanks for the links will read them now.
S

Dear,

My H had an affair with my best friend. We had a lot of social contact with OW and her H.

After I discovered A they immediately ended it but then they really insisted on "remaining" friends. H still talked to OW on the internet, being there for her, because (his words) "they needed to work this through, too".

After all they really "liked" each other still, he was so special to OW, they were really good friends. So why couldn't we all be friends again? They would be good now, wouldn't they?

Too bad - it doesn't work that way. To them things seem different. Nobody put a knife in their heart or their back. Nobody betrayed them. They have those wonderful "we support each other in bad times" memories.
So why not stay friends?

No - because they both really hurt me. And they hurt you. No contact is the price they pay for hurting you and being selfish. It's what they can do to make you feel save again in your M. This idea should be imprinted firmly in your mind.

Now - don't let OW play the part of the loving, understanding nice friend while you're the "bad" woman.

Don't be emotional with H. You shouldn't compromise or lie about your true feelings but there will be times when silence is golden. Timing is very important.

All that you will learn about EN and LB etc. will make you a better person and will be excellent for your M. Never think "I have to this because of that OW" - it's a great thing to do for the M and for yourself and it will make you stronger and happier in the long run.

If you have suspicions that they are "at it again" and he doesn't want to stop, you shouldn't let him "enjoy" the both of you.
Even telling him it might be better if he went and lived with OW can be done gently. That will have so much more impact than to do it kicking and screaming.

Anyway, if you feel like you're going to explode.. do it here... we have a bom squad !! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

<small>[ August 06, 2004, 03:38 AM: Message edited by: brownhair ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by arty:
<strong> melodylane,
I have not yet kicked him out. I have only told him that I love him and want him. I have said he is a good person who has done bad things. I am sure if I saw regret and willingness to repair on his part my sadness and lonliness would dissolve.
Thanks for the links will read them now.
S </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">arty, but he doesn't FEEL any regret now because he is still in the affair. He doesn't have any willingness now. He is addicted to the OW and will likely stay that way as long as the affair stays secret and you continue to lovebust him, which makes the OW look very attractive.

Instead of demanding that he make you feel better by showing feelings that he does not have, how about putting a strategy in place that is designed to end the affair and repair your marriage? What you are doing is not working, arty.

Brownhair,
You are all so strong. No LB is great in theory but hard to follow for me cos at the tip of my mind is isn't his A the largest LB you could encounter.
It feels as if the word has taken me on a mad ride that tells me he can keep hurting me with no consequence and I will shower him with affection.
S

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by arty:
<strong> melodylane,
I have not yet kicked him out. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Didn't you tell him not to come home?

Is the OW married? Who is she? Where did he meet her?

At the moment he is holidaying with male friends and is not due until Monday night. The conversation was more like prove that you intend to commit to NC or don't come home.
OW is 15 years younger than H, not married met at a work conference.
Do I hunt down her extended family (if possible) to expose her?
S

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by arty:
<strong> Brownhair,

It feels as if the word has taken me on a mad ride that tells me he can keep hurting me with no consequence and I will shower him with affection.
S </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">arty, your H has taken you on a mad ride and we are offering you practical suggestions to save your marriage. Your H is not going to end his affair unless you give him reason to do so. He is attracted to the OW because she treats him good and meets his needs. We are trying to help you attract him back TO YOU, AWAY from the OW.

Now, do you imagine that your angry outbursts and DEMANDS for affection, etc are going to attract him back? Has that worked for you so far?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by arty:
<strong> At the moment he is holidaying with male friends and is not due until Monday night. The conversation was more like prove that you intend to commit to NC or don't come home.
OW is 15 years younger than H, not married met at a work conference.
Do I hunt down her extended family (if possible) to expose her?
S </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would find out who they are and consider it down the road. In the meantime, you can expose him to key family members. Do they work together?