O'kay, this 180 thing is a new concept to me. It is still very forced, though I know eventually it will feel real.

I'll give my current instance, but I would also like input on how to handle similiar issues in the future.

I've stopped calling my husband about every little thing I want to share. I've also stopped with the emails and IM's. Well last week he witnessed something pretty traumatic during work and called to tell me about it right away. Over the course of the next few days, he sent me several emails talking about the incident and attached news stories relating to the event. This was all before I knew anything about "180" and I was very supportive to him.

Today he called me in the middle of the day to report that his fish died. Okay, it's just a fish but he was pretty devastated. When we separated we had to give away our big dog (we both loved her and I trained her, but she was his baby), our cat, and I have our little dog with me. We both love pets and he got this fish because it was something that he knew he could take care of with the type of schedule he has. Anyway..it's not like there were tears but he was obviously pretty broken up about it--to the point where he wanted to keep talking about it even though he was on his way to an appointment (we RARELY talk on our cellphones while we're driving..nto just to each other, but to anyone). I was at an appointment of my own so I had to let him go, but I did express my sympathies and tried to make him feel a little bit better.

Now here is what I consider to be my dilemma. I am glad that he called me. It shows that he still sees me as a good and positive support system in his life, even when it's something that other people might consider to be silly. This incident and the one last week were both things he felt that he could confide in me about and that I would listen and empathize. I think this is the ONE thing in our marriage that he's sure about right now--that I am an important part of his support network. So why am I at a loss of what to do?

Well he's getting the support from me that he needs, but still living his "other" life right now (I'm thinking cakeman type stuff) and not being very supportive of me. O'kay, I can take this and I want to be supportive, but I also want him to miss that support system a little bit. So how supportive should I be over stuff like this? Do I need to find a compromise somewhere in the middle?

Like..I was going to actually go buy a sympathy card. Believe me, he would appreciate it. But as a compromise I'm thinking either a virtual card of some sort or a short email. What do you think?

But really, in the future..is this support thing something I should run with because it's an EN he is receptive to me filling? Or should I hold back a little, but not entirely?

O'kay, this 180 thing is a new concept to me
Then you should read, "Divorce Busting" by Michele Weiner-Davis and visit/read her website www.divorcebusting.com.

I've stopped calling my husband about every little thing I want to share. I've also stopped with the emails and IM's.
Why? Was he upset you were doing these things?

I was going to actually go buy a sympathy card. Believe me, he would appreciate it.
Then according the 180, you should buy it.
You do a 180 only on things which are having no affect or a negative affect. If it is having a positive affect, then you should continue to do it.

If he is living with ow now (especially for more than a week or two) I personally would recommend Plan B.

Chris, nods..yes, I have the book coming but have not received it yet. What I've read about it is gleaned from posts here, advice given to me here and a look-over of her website.

I know that R talks bother him but he has not expressed irritation about emails or IM's and is always friendly in response and he also initiates these types of communications. I guess where I might be seeing the problem is that he doesn't have any chance to miss these sorts of things about our marriage--the day to day things like conversation that make life easier for everyone. He doesn't miss them because he still gets them from me. I do NOT want to be manipulative! But I've got half the people here (lol..um..actually, 1/2 the people who respond to my posts) saying that I should not always be fully available to him, and then someone comes along and implies that if it's something he likes, that I should be doing it. This is all new to me so I don't know which was is the best way!

There is not a current OW. My Plan A is more because he is dating others. There is no one serious in his life and as far as I KNOW, no one he's gone out with more than a couple of times.

MaddyK forgot to add Chris that 1)he's living in Puerto Rico and she's here in the states 2)H openly admitted to family that he's dating others..

So there might be multiple OW or just 1. But why would a married man announce "he's dating" if separation was designed to be last ditch effort in healing? You must be honest w/yourself Maddy. Yea, it hurts, but you gotta be honest.

I think it's pretty much irrelevant if there is one specific ow or if he's "dating" many.

Chris, I just meant that he's not living with anyone. Are you saying that you believe I should Plan B before ever giving him a reason to see the marriage as a good alternative to divorce?

justpeachy..I'm not understanding you. Are you just saying I should give up and give him a divorce, not even try to save our marriage? That's what it's sounding like you think I should do.

The separation was not designed to give a last ditch effort in healing. My husband wanted a divorce. His reasoning at the time was because he felt we had become incompatible and he wasn't sure that marriage was for him. He loved me but felt that his doubts made staying married unfair to both of us. We talked about it and decided since we did love each other, that we would separate and if nothing changed in a year that we would get a divorce. At the time we decided on the separation we decided to live apart and we would date others. We didn't have any kind of plan to work on our marriage. We figured we'd talk on the phone, see each other and talk about what we thought the problems were. But it was basically a "let's wait and see what happens" kind of thing. I thought living apart was warranted so he could see if he *did* like living alone and I thought dating other people was a good idea so he could see if there was someone he felt more compatible with. I left Puerto Rico with no expectations (actually, my expectation leaned towards that we would end up getting a divorce), but I did have hope.

And then I found this site, read much of it and came to these forums. I now understand how bad a decision it was to live apart and date others. After reading through the site I got his needs/her needs and Surviving and Affair. All of this gave me hope that we really could save our marriage, if my husband ever gets to the point where he WANTS to try. Right now, he's told me he is willing to do things..but he doesn't WANT to and he's not committed to it. It may be that he never gets to the point where he WANTS to try. It may be that he will, but I know that's going to take awhile regardless. This is why I am Plan A'ing. I want to give him a reason to WANT to, and I also want to prepare myself for the future in which he never wants to, should that come to pass.

jp, it seems to me that your treating his dating others and not being secretive about it as different than you would treat an affair and I'm not quite sure why. Plan B is there to preserve the BS' love, right? And that usually, a plan B should not be done unless there was a good, solid plan A? So what would you tell the person whose spouse is having an affair, leaves the house to pursue said affair. Would you tell them to Plan A? Plan B? Neither, just 180 for the time being? Would you tell them to give up any hopes of reconciling after just 2 months and give their WS a divorce?

Please understand I am just so confused. I am really at a point right now where I have NO idea what the right course to take is. A lot of advice here seems to differ from the Harley's site/books..and it's just so darned confusing!

Are you saying that you believe I should Plan B before ever giving him a reason to see the marriage as a good alternative to divorce?
How exactly can you show him that now?
Simply letting him run around will not show him that your marriage is a good alternative to divorce. It will show him that it is okay to run around while married.

You live in different countries and he is under the impression that it is "okay to date".
The Plan B letter will tell him that you do not want a divorce, that you want to stay married and can have a great marriage.
I think you need to start gearing yourself up for a move to Plan B.

And that usually, a plan B should not be done unless there was a good, solid plan A?
Not really. Yes, Plan B is much more effective if it is preceded by a good Plan A.
That does not mean you should not/cannot do Plan B unless you have done an immaculate Plan A.

what would you tell the person whose spouse is having an affair, leaves the house to pursue said affair. Would you tell them to Plan A? Plan B? Neither, just 180 for the time being?
Personally I'd say Plan B. But if possible, do Plan A for a short time, especially if you did not do any prior to their leaving.
Dr. Harley (not Steve) told me I should be in Plan B as soon as my ws left (5 weeks post d-day).

A lot of advice here seems to differ from the Harley's site/books..and it's just so darned confusing!
Because a lot of posts are misinterpreted and others have not read anything of Harleys (only these forums) and try to explain what MB principles are.

Chris, just a note. I've been following roughroad's sessions with SH. Her situation seems very close to mine. Military, no kids together (I do have a son from a previous marriage), living apart, her making changes in her behavoir. Biggest difference is that my husband seems slightly more receotive to see the changes in me, and also, we have friendly talks on phone and look forward to seeing each other. Being willing to see my changes is only a guess on my part.

How will I show him now? I do feel that I'm at an extreme disadvantage here. We are visiting each other every other month, talkign on phone approx 1-2 time/week..sometimes email and IM. I also have some contact with his parents (I moved to the same area where they live). But this is obviously not ideal and it I know it makes it more difficult for us.

I am prepared to go to a Plan B at some time if it's necessary, but I don't feel that the time is now. My own timeline before I did anything like that was around Christmas, or right after.

We did not at all Plan A before I left. This discussion of splitting up came up last year after his affair. Truthfully, we did nothing constructive to try to save our marriage over the last year. It was the same "wait and see what happens". Obviously that doesn't work! I fully admit that I could've done more myself. But also, there were some things that I needed to do that I just absolutely could not do down there. Not an excuse, just the way it was. Now I really do have a chance to do something constructive..it might be too late, it might not be. (I don't know if it matters, but he did not start dating until I left. I do not really even know if he's dating now, but I'm assuming that he is).

I did read your situation in rr's post. So if one harley says plan b, and the other says plan a, what then? I know counseling is in order here but I can't do it RIGHT now..so in the meantime..I dunno..I feel that a Plan B is hasty at this point.

<small>[ July 28, 2004, 12:00 PM: Message edited by: maddyk ]</small>