2 months post D Day-the A continues with daily phone calls. In person meetings are almost impossible due to distance. I am try to Plan A which includes meeting her ENs. Her two most importatnt EN is for affection and conversation. I am having problems meeting her need for affection without bringing up relationship issues. I am trying very hard not to LB but affection needs to come from the heart doesn't it?
To say I Love You kinda violates not bringing up relationship issues. I am doing a pretty good job of meeting her need for conversation but again without bringing up relationship issues is difficult. She is still with me and hasn't left yet. Separation papers are in her hands but she hasn't mentioned them to me. She has had them for a week. The daily phone calls from the OM rips my heart out. She is going to have to choose in the very near future because I can't live this way. My IC said to focus on me now and not her but I want to save my marriage. Do MB principles work? Still no remorse on her part. I'm confused and frustrated. Youngest son leaves for college in 3 weeks-after he is gone I am going to force the issue. Either she ends the A or I go to Plan B. It may mean that I move out and cut off her money-she doesn't work. Correct strategy? This could get nasty but I feel I have no other chose? Help!!

Dear Hopeful,

I can understand this situation is very hard. You should think of your W as a junkie who is looking for her next fix. This fix is destroying everything around her but she doesn't notice, it doesn't sink in, she's hooked. A junkie will lie, steal, cheat to get his or her fix. Only when they get off the stuff they realise what they have done and then reality can hit very, very hard, even making them suicidal if they're essential good people.

How not to LB? How to woe her into staying with you when you cannot say "I love you" from your heart? Think about the things you like about her regardless of the A. The qualities she had that make you want her to stay, that make her the person you want to share the rest of your life with. That is what kept me going when I discovered about my H's A. Those are the things you can truthfully say to her - and make her realise what it is about her that you want, that you like.

If and when she comes out of the fog she's feel terrible anyway about how she's acting right now. The nice things you say about her now might help her at that time.

I once used the comparison with your 18-year old daughter having a BF you totally disapprove of. The more you try to convince her it would be better if she stopped seeing him, the more she'll defend him and their relationship. She'll start feeling you hate her if you keep bashing her over the head and being angry at her. She might even move out to live with BF.
You'll need to convince her you love her in spite of the poor choice she's made.

Am I making any sense here?

brownhair-your right of course. No one said this was going to be easy. I'm fighting everyday for her. The OM fights for her while I'm at work. she is sitting on the fence though. I will be in a position to knock her off that fence in a few weeks. I don't knock the OM although he is a liar and cheat. I try to avoid that conversation. My wife is having a hard dealing with her grown children's reaction though and to her 3 sister's reaction all diapprove of her behavior. I think I really love this woman or the I love the woman I marriage-she is not home right now.

Bump

<small>[ July 28, 2004, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: FamilyMatters ]</small>

FamilyMatters-I believe you misread brwonhair's comments. I do not have a problem with my daughter-she is grown. Brownhair was making a point to not drive my wife to om by making disparing remarks about him. She used the teenage girl as an analogy. It's my wife that I'm worried about. I'm ready for this chaos to end. Either she is going to be my wife or she isnt. In either case I am strong and will survive and thrive. I closing in on 3 months of Plan A. I can't take much more. I may force her to Plan B. She is cakeeating right now. I think she needs to find out if OM can meet all of her ENs.

Oops, hmmm. HOPE I went thru the same thing. It took my W a long time to wake up. I eventually had all I could take and started moving on with my life. I think sometimes it comes to that. I also think it's risky, but if your on the rollercoaster you must exit at some point. CakeEaters will eat cake for as long as it's comfortable, and then for some reason they eat for a while after that until REALITY seeps thru the fog. The MB principles suggest you stay in PLAN A for extended periods of time and I agree but I see nothing wrong with putting your foot down and saying,"I care too much about our M to allow this to go any further..."

I'll go back and edit my earlier comment.

Dear Hopeful,

I've read here that the average time to plan A is 3 months for WH but 6 months for WW because they are normally more emotionally entangled and it takes them longer to start realising what you are doing.

It's all really too soon to tell. Hang in there. Take care of yourself. After D-Day I told myself that if no-one will take care of me (that's how I felt at that time) then I will. I stuck to my diet (lost 26 pounds by now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) and started working out, taking better care of myself etc. You can do these things for YOU, you'll feel better about yourself and it won't make a bad impression on W.

ANYTHING you do to self-improve will be a gain for you and a plus for the M.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hopefulinnc:
<strong> I am try to Plan A which includes meeting her ENs. Her two most importatnt EN is for affection and conversation. I am having problems meeting her need for affection without bringing up relationship issues. I am trying very hard not to LB but affection needs to come from the heart doesn't it?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow - although not quite the exact same situation, I definitely know how you feel. It sounds as if we have been dealing with this "journey" for about the same amount too.

I got some advice about 4 weeks ago from MB (shattered dreams) that really helped at the most horrible time for me. That time, luckily, ended up being a huge turning point for my M.

The advice basically went something like this: since you love your WS and you are committed to save your M (you are, you are here), NOW is the time you have to be HER lifeline and HER safety net. You HAVE to be a rock.

I took this advice and just rationalized to myself that it wasn't yet my turn.

It's not about your ENs right now - it's about hers. Seems pretty unfair doesn't it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

PLEASE DON'T MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE I DID!!!! The results of which could be far worse than a D. As unstable as you may be, WS could, and probably is, far more so!

I was, unfortunately, "the taker" in the first few weeks after our D-Day. FWS and I are now repairing both the M and the first few weeks of damage I did by my taking and not paying attention to her ENs unselfishly.

It sounds like you have read Surviving an Affair. If you haven't, definitely do it - do it yesterday! SAA uses a case study that really reminds me of parts of your situation. I took solace in my reading (and re-readings) that some of these feelings will subside and they really actually do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I know you love many, many things about your W, even through all this pain. You can't literally afford any LBs. Discussion in regard to anything about the A will be a LB at this stage. Don't do it!

Plan A until you can't Plan A any longer. Get on anti-depression meds - it's tough, you can do it though.

My heart goes out to you. Have faith! You stay strong!

Oh btw..Hopeful I was in Plan A for over a YEAR!
and that has paid HUGE dividends. The OM had no intention of hanging in there for such an extended period of time. Hanging in PLAN A and puttin your GIVER in the driver seat may be what saves your M. My W says many things these days to OTHER people that melt my heart and remind me that I did the right things. She told my mother that I've always been there no matter what, and that I always loved her.

Stay in Plan A as long as you possibly can, and then stay in it a little while after that. Like BrownHair I shifted my mind to other things which allowed me to stay in PLAN A. I developed hobbys, started working out more regularly. After the newest D-DAY, just a month ago today I started jogging/walking to take the edge off and relieve my frustration. I've lost 10 pounds and 3 inches in my midsection! Please stay in Plan A for as long as possible, you'll know when to go to Plan B. Do not let your emotions dictate your strategy, come here to vent instead.

hinc,
The MB principles suggest you stay in PLAN A for extended periods of time
No, they do not. In "Surviving An Affair" the length of time for Plan A is only 6 months.
Dr. Harley has said that time should be even less if the affair is continuing.
You should give it enough time for learning a few things and to "negotiate" an end to the affair.

FamilyMatters,
I was in Plan A for over a YEAR!
and that has paid HUGE dividends.
How so? You just found out that there is still contact.

Hanging in PLAN A and puttin your GIVER in the driver seat may be what saves your M.
For a SHORT time, this is true. But sticking to it longer will simply show your spouse that they can continue to do whatever they want, simply because you will put up with it.

HINC,

Have you prepared your plan B letter yet? I strongly urge you to do so and post it here to get feedback. I thought Your W had decided to leave and be with OM when young son went to college. Has anything changed on that front? If so, plan B is definitely called for.

I do think if she does not leave to be with OM that you should ask her to leave the home and go to plan B. I will explain my reasons.

1. This affair has been going on for 5 years and it was at a distance so they can keep it going no matter what she says.

2. This is her 3rd affair, I realize you just found out about the other two as well.

3. Long term affairs like this take extra ordinary circumstances to get over, and probably the only way this will happen is if she leaves and is with the guy. Or she leaves and has as much access to him as she can get from your hometown.

So I think you know that for this marriage to survive SHE must decide to make it survive. If she sort of wimps out from leaving, the odds are the A will continue as an EA if not a PA. She has to face this in full force and then decide which man it will be.

Your plan A is planting seeds. Your behavior has been amazing and it is planting seeds. But, only she can let them grow and that takes time.

So get your plan B letter ready, polish it, and make sure she moves out into a NEW environment. So that she is NOT comfortable. Then you can keep or sell the house as you wish and deal with divorce if that is what she forces.

I am not sure this meets with the strictest MB philosophy but think about it. I would strongly recommend that you call the Harley's and counsel with them a bit to get a really good plan for this.

God Bless,

JL

Here is my Plan B letter-let me know what you think:

Dear WW, July 28, 2004

I could never have imagined being where we are right now with you involved in a relationship with another man. I am heart broken and sad beyond belief, especially knowing that I helped create an environment in which you chose to have an affair rather than work together on our marriage. I am truly sorry for neglecting all that you needed to make our marriage flourish. I truly believe that we have what it takes to make an incredible life together filled with love, affection, and joy.

Your continued affair with OM hurts me very deeply and I feel it eroding the remaining love I have for you. When I see you or talk with you, knowing you are with him at least in your mind right now it fills me with too much pain. To preserve the love I have for you, I must insist that we have no contact with each other. Your sister has agreed to act as an intermediary. Any and all communication with me needs to go through her. Please do not call me, email me, or come to the house.

I am not trying to keep the kids from you. You are free of course to contact them whenever you choose. Don’t cut yourself off from the children. They love their Mother and need to see and hear from you as often as possible. I only ask that OM, NOT HAVE ANY CONTACT with them. Let’s continue to protect them.
I am not doing this to punish you. When and if you end your affair with OM, then we can discuss our future together and work on our marriage. But, I will need to know that you are committed to our marriage and that OM is no longer part of your life.

With all my love,

Hopefulinnc

HINC,

The plan B is a good start. Remember it is a "love" letter. It really is and it should express your love and desire to be married to her in clear and probably repeated words. ON the whole it is concise, and it doesn't go off in an tangents. Good going.

I thought you might find this thread interesting. Nick used to post here a lot and I among others used to try and help. Here is his up date and I think it is very very pertinent to your situation.

Nikc's update

God Bless,

JL

What you have is good. But you need to put in a bit more.

Try this. Expand upon these 6 items (one parapgraph each) and make them your own.
Don't jump around between ideas in a parapgraph.
Don't make it too long. The whole letter should be maybe a front of a page only.

1 - I love you. We had good times together.
2 - I want to stay married to you.
3 - I am sorry for my part in bringng the marriage to the state it is. Also, I am learning (ala MB) how to make a relationship better and take into account your feelings and thoughts with all my actions.
4 - I have to cut off all contact because of the pain of your continued affair. If you wish to see/contact the children, call ms xx/mr yy.
5 - I will agree to contact again when you give up the affair and agree to discuss what is needed for reconciliation.
6 - I Love You.

I don't want to thread jack but I wanted to answer your questions.

The MB principles suggest you stay in PLAN A for extended periods of time
No, they do not. In "Surviving An Affair" the length of time for Plan A is only 6 months.
Dr. Harley has said that time should be even less if the affair is continuing.
You should give it enough time for learning a few things and to "negotiate" an end to the affair.

I agree with Harleys principles but I believe some situations call for a mixture of Plan A/B. I am just beginning to use MB's principles I didnt find this site until D-Day. My Plan A wasn't a textbook plan A, I tried to Woo her back when this first began 4 years ago. I was being the best me I could be and without that I don't think I would have saved my M. We came very close to divorce. What do you mean negoitiate an end to the A, shouldn't you give yourself time to show why your the better choice and can fill her EN's? I think the timeframes may be altered depending on the signs.


FamilyMatters,
I was in Plan A for over a YEAR!
and that has paid HUGE dividends
How so? You just found out that there is still contact..

I now understand all of the things I did wrong. I realize every positive thing I did was being countered by every negative thing I did. A mixture of Plan A/B is what got my wife back living in our HOME. This was a big step for my family as we have 2 children. In fact now understanding LB's and EN's I'm surprised she ever came back to me! I was a caring, loving LB ridden H. I hope you can understand my M problems were mostly attributed to those LB's. I have yet to deal with my emotions regarding her contact with OM, I must first work on my LB's and after she's emotionally able we can deal with my how this has effected me. I see my LB's as a big cause to our problems throughout our M not her A.

Hanging in PLAN A and puttin your GIVER in the driver seat may be what saves your M.
For a SHORT time, this is true. But sticking to it longer will simply show your spouse that they can continue to do whatever they want, simply because you will put up with it.

If you KNOW your S is having an ongoing A I would agree, but if you suspect contact but no A I mean where is the line drawn? It depends on the situation. I did what seems to have been best for me after realizing she was still in contact, going to Plan B probably would have hurt things more than helped. You may see it differently.

I admit much of what I did up till June 27 was on instinct maybe that's why it's taken so long! Don't get me wrong, I wish I had landed here 3 years ago, but the only thing that saved my M was my innate Plan Aing, ie trying to meet her needs as best I could, no reacting too emotionally, being her rock even at a distance. I'm a newbie in MB principles, but strongly feel jumping into Plan B prematurely can be devestating. What if I would have done that after D-Day? I feel I had every right to do so. In fact after I found out she was still in contact my W admits she expected me to ask her to leave. Instead I went into Plan A and now the fog is lifting somewhat. I attribute this turn around to Plan A. My finances are strapped now so I have not purchased "Surviving an Affair" but I will.

Sorry for any miscommunications on my part.

I agree with Harleys principles but I believe some situations call for a mixture of Plan A/B.
If you are in ANY kind of a Plan B, there is no communication, therefore no Plan A.

What do you mean negoitiate an end to the A
This is the main part of Plan A. It is negotiation with the ws to end the affair.

shouldn't you give yourself time to show why your the better choice
This is not part of Plan A. Try to “compete” with the op and the bs will almost always lose.
You are making yourself a postive choice, so when the affair ends (not because you are better, but simply because it will end), she will have someone to return to.

and can fill her EN's?
This is part of Plan A.

I think the timeframes may be altered depending on the signs.
That may be true but if you go by “instinct”, you will probably mess things up.
Also, remember, you have not even read the book on Plan A/B yet.

I'm a newbie in MB principles, but strongly feel jumping into Plan B prematurely can be devestating. What if I would have done that after D-Day?
You might have been over everything now and this would all have been a “terrible dream” instead of just finding out there has been contact.
I don’t recommend anyone go to Plan B without counseling (at a minimum, read the freakin’ book first).
Also, unless someone has read the book, their “experience” with Plan B is mostly heresy from these forums.

Chris,
I thought this forum was about sharing our experiences, maybe I'm taking this wrong but if it seems your saying, we should all buy the book and just call Dr. Harley.
I'm not understanding what your suggesting. So basically you could have posted to HopeFul go buy SAA and do that and if that doesn't work call Dr. Harley?

Please explain.

Chris I need to get out of Hopefuls thread with my own issues. I'm new here and could greatly benefit from your experience, if you could add your suggestions pertaining to my issue in one of my threads I'd really appreciate it. I need your insight if you have time, I want to do the right things please dont misunderstand me. I've done the best I could with the information that I've had.

Thanks in advance

A bad dream, no not a bad dream, a wakeup call is how I see it. I think there's a total misinterpertation here.

<small>[ July 28, 2004, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: FamilyMatters ]</small>

I have read both SAA and his needs/her needs. I am trying to apply the principles in these books. Plan A is like JL said planting seeds but only my wife can let them grow. I plan to put her in Plan B one way or another if this A doesn't end soon and I don't think it will. When young son goes to college next month is an excellent time for Plan B. I would have Plan A for 3 months. I just can't see myself putting up with this junk any longer than that. I think JL is right she needs to find out if OM can meet all her needs. OM is her old high school bf and I hear they used to fight all the time(from her sisters). She has admitted to me that they have "issues". I need plan B.

I thought this forum was about sharing our experiences,
It is. But people should not suggest they were doing a stellar Plan A/B if they have never read what Plan A/B even is.

I'm saying that the proper application of Plan A and Plan B are in the book.
If one has not read the book, then one has not read the proper applications of the plans.
And without reading the proper applications of the plans, how can one say it is being done correctly or incorrectly?

Too many times I have read in these forums that "Plan B is to stop all contact. Period".
Yes, Plan B is no contact but there needs to be a letter sent explaining WHY no contact.
All because mr. x posted something about what mr. y told him about what mrs. cc did in Plan A/B when none of them have a clue about what the plans really are..

Sharing experiences is one thing but to say one as doing Plan A when never having read Plan A is not helpful.

So basically you could have posted to HopeFul go buy SAA and do that and if that doesn't work call Dr. Harley?
Yeah, why not? That is a good plan.
Besides, it's cheaper than a lawyer and if a lawyer is needed later, it's probably gonna be a pittance compared to the lawyer.

<small>[ July 28, 2004, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

Sharing experiences is one thing but to say one as doing Plan A when never having read Plan A is not helpful.

Thanks for your help, my apologies.