Pep,

I think you are a good one to ask as far as this issue of self-esteem goes (there has been some discussion on another thread).

What I have seen in you is, that you do not allow disapproval from others to determine your self-esteem, but neither do you rely on their approval of you.

I have been thinking....that if allowing disapproval from others to affect your self-esteem is illogical, then isn't it also illogical to allow approval and compliments and all that to be used to BOOST your self-esteem?

It seems to me that most people, when trying to help you with self-esteem, will try to get you to see yourself as THEY see you (and they say its' good)...but doesn't that set you up for a fall if on one of their "bad" days they withhold or even withdraw those compliments?

This sounds like a tricky thing, this self-esteem business. And I'd really like your input.

Thanks,

Onlywords

onlywords, I am not Pep, but I would like to add my 2 cents on this. You are exactly right that if you get your approval from WITHOUT, that your self esteem will always be contingent upon others. And since you can never control other people, you will be riding a perpetual roller coaster. BUT... you can control yourself!

So if others don't esteem you on Tuesday, you are a bum. If they esteem you on Wed, then you are a hero.

I have learned that while compliments, etc, sure make me feel good, that the foundation of my self esteem must come from INSIDE or I will live in constant turmoil.

I must impress the lady in the mirror and no one else because the buck stops right here. Therefore, I must think and act in a way that *I* esteem. Am I proud of my actions? Or am I disppointed? That is what it always comes back to. I must live in a way that *I* esteem.

Now, that does not mean that I don't LIKE the approval of my fellows, I do. But if someone doesn't like me, I don't let it hurt my self esteem. I might feel a little sad momentarily - IF I esteem that person - but I don't let it upset me. Because what matters is my own opinion of myself.

<small>[ July 28, 2004, 09:52 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

I, too, obviously am not Pep. But I did read this, and an experience came to mind that I had shortly after my d-day, that I wanted to share with you.

I was feeling very insubstantial and small after d-day, as many of us have. I went to my aunt, and asked her to think of what my best qualities are. I wanted a boost. The next day, I asked her what these qualities were. Without hesitating, she said, "You are strong and mean. You can be a b****, and that means you are strong."

Ooookaaaaay. Well, even though I CAN be those things, I personally do not see those as strengths. I personally see those as coping mechanisms, not meant for the long-term. And I am not proud when I resort to those qualities within myself.

It was then I realized I had to look INSIDE myself for the answer I was seeking. Yes, I can be all those things. But I am more. I can be compassionate, forgiving, understanding, kind, joyous, funny - and I always look out for the underdog. In my opinion, being mean and "strong" in that way, is easy. Putting aside anger and fear, very powerful emotions, and working with love and compassion instead, takes more integrity and guts.

So, in about 500 more words than Mel, I say, look inside of YOU. Your esteem is based on your own internal code of beliefs and behavior. What you see as most important, will be what you base yourself off of.

SS

ML,
You said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Am I proud of my actions? Or am I disppointed? That is what it always comes back to. I must live in a way that *I* esteem.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What is interesting to note in this is that you said NOTHING about the way you look, how smart you are, what you have accomplished (or not), how tough you are (or not)...etc. etc.

And I take that to mean none of that is of ANY value whatsoever in determining your sense of self-worth, am I right? Because the truth is that none of those qualities is unique and special to anyone! But that is what well-meaning loved ones try to point out to you when you are feeling down on yourself...which is why it doesn't help at all to be told these kinds of things. Am I on to something here?

Thanks for responding....I am glad to get anyone else's input on this, as well as Pep's.

Onlywords

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Spider Slayer:
<strong>

So, in about 500 more words than Mel, I say, look inside of YOU. Your esteem is based on your own internal code of beliefs and behavior.

SS </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well said, SS! Truer words were never spoken than what you said above. It took me most of my life to learn the simple truth: "am I behaving in a way that CAN be esteemed?"

That's all there is right there. When I have been lazy or mean or envious or self pitying or greedy or dishonest I don't have much TO esteem. But when I behave in a self disciplined, honorable manner that is accordance with my moral code, I do esteem myself.

With that said, I should get my [censored] to work like am I supposed to and quit wasting time on this computer! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What is interesting to note in this is that you said NOTHING about the way you look, how smart you are, what you have accomplished (or not), how tough you are (or not)...etc. etc.

[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Onlywords, I think those things do play a part in how I view myself. I am very proud of my career acheivements. I have esteem and appreciation for all of my assets. I think that is all part of it.

Dear Onlywords,

yet another non-Pep person here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ! Hope you don't mind !

I'd like to put it this way. If someone would ever tell me "I really hate your black curly hair" while looking at me in disgust... I really couldn't be impressed. My hair isn't black and it isn't curly. I know it isn't.

So the thing is to find out who you really are and to accept who you are. I had a very hard time accepting I was ANGRY at OW and H for the pain the caused me. This made me feel terrible and the sarcastic thoughts in my head didn't go away until I ACCEPTED that I was angry. Then it started to get better.

I thought about the stupid mistakes I made in the past and how I might have hurt others doing that to make myself more "humble" towards OW's and my H's actions.
I realised that the only way I could get past the guilt I felt was by accepting full responsibility for what I did. To accept I was an idiot, that I was selfish, or too young or whatever to realise what I was doing. Things that hurt my mother or father or friends, things most teenagers do but that in retrospect I wish I hadn't done.

When I accept who I am I can take criticism from others. If I think the criticism belongs in the "black curly hair" corner - I know it's not for me. If I'm in the mood I might even state that black and curly hair is quite beautiful <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

If I'm not sure something applies to me I'll put it in the waiting room for examination. I have been amazed at the reaction people who are angry at me will have when I tell them - okay, you might be right. I'll have to look into this. They back down. Sometimes they apologize for overreacting. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

If I know they are right - I'll take their criticism as a "red flag" that I'm doing things in a way I shouldn't. If I feel hurt in the process this is a clear sign to me that there is something there I haven't dealt with yet. Otherwise I wouldn't feel hurt (remember the black curly hair thing).

Most of us have learned to let their self-esteem depend on others. We wanted to please our parents. Our teachers. Our friends. If we couldn't get their attention by being "good" we'd make sure we got their attention by being "naughty". Just as long as they wouldn't ignore us.
Not a lot of parents or teachers will tell us to do "what we feel is right". THEY will tell us what is right and wrong and many times in a very LBing way <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> .
Most of us are taught that we are "good" when we do what others (especially those in authority - parents, teachers, priests...) want us to do and we are punished for even questioning the standards they set.

It's a long road to learn how to depend on yourself for self-esteem. To filter out the things you feel in your heart to be true. To chuck out (it that correct English? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) the stuff that is getting you nowhere. But I think it's worth every babystep I take on it!

I've always looked at my "esteem" more as what have a accomplished than what do I have. Does that make sense? Not sure.

Anyway, one of my struggles comes from the saying "what have you done for me today?" So, if I haven't accomplished anything today, my esteem takes a hit.

This is probably a big reason why I am such a todo list type of person. The more things I can cross off, the more I've accomplished. Probably need to work a little more to get away from that.

Luv ya Onlywords (and you do have a way with them),
RH

I'm not pep, but I play one on tv.

Sorry, had to be done. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hi

What I have seen in you is, that you do not allow disapproval from others to determine your self-esteem, but neither do you rely on their approval of you.

Yes and no...

I have to allow myself to consider the opinions /criticisms /compliments of others as potentially valid... especially opinions of "others" whom I admire. But not exclusively those I admire. Because they can be wrong too.

But this is only a part of the origin of self esteem ---> "other esteem".

I believe a steadier and truer measure of what is worth esteeming about ourselves is how well we maintain our integrity in the face of a great challenge.

Schnarch calls this "holding on to yourself" while "entering the crucible".

I have been thinking....that if allowing disapproval from others to affect your self-esteem is illogical, then isn't it also illogical to allow approval and compliments and all that to be used to BOOST your self-esteem?

What is missing from your question is a mention of values ... a central core of values is the foundation of self-actualized self-esteem.

If other-approval means you need to run over your personal core values (like an affair partner tends to require in order for the relationship to progress to an affair level) then getting one's self-esteem this way is destructive to the self. And hence, why "love" is not enough for a truely great relationship to last.

Imagine getting approval from someone who you greatly admire for their strong core values... and then that same person asks you to commit adultery with him!



It seems to me that most people, when trying to help you with self-esteem, will try to get you to see yourself as THEY see you (and they say its' good)...but doesn't that set you up for a fall if on one of their "bad" days they withhold or even withdraw those compliments?

I would imagine one of the better ways to help others with self-esteem is to engage in a discussion of values rather than feelings about the self. Feelings... well you know how I "feel" about feelings <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .... feelings just ARE. They are neither good nor bad morally. And feelings always change. But VALUES can last a lifetime and become more and more polished with time.


This sounds like a tricky thing, this self-esteem business.

I think if you make self-esteem less and less about feelings.... you find it is less and less tricky.

Pep

Thanks,

Onlywords [/QB][/QUOTE]

<small>[ July 28, 2004, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Onlywords...

Here's the really tricky part...

Imagine yourself in a relationship where the other person relied on YOU to provide them with their self-esteem!

Do you see where this is a TRAP ?

Pep

Pep,

I know you're talking about adults here regarding esteem; but I couldn't help but think of what our children need.

I think their esteem grows from the seed that is planted from their parents. Some don't seem to get what they need and stay in a form of arrested development. I know adults who fit this picture.

I suspect that those who don't form healthy esteems as children are forever looking outside to fill what should have been developed from the "inside-out" with the help of their parents.

At some point maybe adolescence when they form their individualized self they learn to be responsible adults knowing that THEIR choices determine whether the esteem they feel is positive or negative.

God knows that there are plenty of people on the outside more than willing to deposit or withdraw from other's esteem account. And if one's esteem is shakey it really does seem to be defined by what other's think.

Thanks everyone for your input....reading all of your answers, I wondered...maybe I should have asked about your WORTH as a human being. I think I pretty much understand where people get their sense of self-esteem.....and they are as varied and individual as snowflakes.

But the question in my mind is....suppose you were in a horroble accident....your face was permanently disfigured, you lost all your hair, were paralyzed from the neck down, you lost your job, your home, your money, etc.
Your self-esteem would pretty much take a nose-dive, wouldn't it, because that is where you placed your esteem of yourself.
And, as in my case, my core values told me that to have an affair was wrong, but somehow I "ditched" those core values and went ahead and did it, now the thing I based my esteem on is gone.
Ok, now I understand that my self-esteem has taken a hit, by my own hands. I also know self-esteem can take a hit when someone else puts you down, but only because you "buy into" what they say about you.
But what about your basic value as a human being? What prevents some people, who have found themselves in those kinds of situations (I'm thinking of Christopher Reeves, Joni Erickson, and myself) from losing all hope?

How do you tell yourself you are still a valuable, worthwhile human being?

PEP.....Can you tell me, who is Schnarch? Also, I clicked on that link in one of your posts for the definition of "transference" (VERY interesting website!) and also wondered what exactly is "metapsychology"? I was a Psych major in college and have always and forever been fascinated byt the stuff, though never pursued a career in it....low self-esteem, maybe? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

Gotta run...RH is calling.

Onlywords

And if one's esteem is shakey it really does seem to be defined by what other's think.

And THAT dependance on outside confirmation of self-worth places "others" into a trap of prividing pseudo self esteem. This can compromise the integrity of the one supposedly providing self esteem from the outside. This stiffles individual growth.

Kids.... well another topic for later. I prefer to stick with discussing adults for the moment.... You go on ahead without me on this one <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Pep

I believe Pep is referring to David Schnarch, author of "The Passionate Marriage."

Your value as a human being lies in just that: you are a unique human being, the creation of the Creator of the universe. Nothing you can do or have can add anything to or take anything away from that value. To the degree that you are able to accept that, you will be able to live in peace and grace. Because you won't feel compelled to "earn" your right to exist. You will be centered in your self, in your fundamental IAMness.

As far as the affirmation and rejection of others goes, it serves a purpose, but you have to filter it like water from a wild spring. The affirmation of a person that affirms you in order to get you to do what they want is toxic--you have to filter it through what you know about their ulterior motives. Likewise, a negative statement from another person who is coming from a place of jealousy has a toxic element you need to filter out.

Ultimately, the statements of other people are like warped mirrors. Some people at some times are more or less warped and realistic than others. If I'm looking at myself in a bent mirror, I can see well enough to clean mud off my face or notice that I have lovely green eyes. But I have to take into account that I'm not seeing a totally accurate reflection of myself. The negative statement from the jealous person has value if there is a core element of truth to it that you could put to productive use--"cleaning the mud from your face" as it were. And the affirming statement from the manipulative person likely has some core truth to it, and it's okay to feel good about that core of truth.

But when you put your sense of worth into these statements, you become "addicted" to them for your sense of well-being. You become a rat in a cage who keeps banging her head against a lever to get that food pellet. Sure, it hurts your head, but you NEED THAT PELLET!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This can compromise the integrity of the one supposedly providing self esteem from the outside </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pep, can you explain this more? I'm having trouble following this <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Thanks,
Onlywords

KAT72,

Thanks, this is actually what I was looking for.

As for this statement:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And the affirming statement from the manipulative person likely has some core truth to it, and it's okay to feel good about that core of truth.

But when you put your sense of worth into these statements, you become "addicted" to them for your sense of well-being. You become a rat in a cage who keeps banging her head against a lever to get that food pellet. Sure, it hurts your head, but you NEED THAT PELLET!

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is hearing those types of "nice" statements a "valid" emotional need? I guess what I'm getting at is, since I didn't get a lot of positive feedback, or the self-esteem "boost" from my husband in our marriage, and then started to get some from OM, is that why I did what I did? Because I was looking to OM then to provide my self-esteem with a boost?

Was that not a valid emotional need? I'm thinking it is not, because of what PEP said about depending on someone else for that....it's too much to ask of anyone. I'm not quite clear on what I can or can't realistically "expect" from my husband in that regard.

Thanks again,

Onlywords

onlywords -

It is interesting that you have raised this topic. My FWH had his A largely in part to the OW telling him how wonderful he is. Sadly, I had been doing that for years, and H still didn't believe in himself. WHY? Because getting self worth from somebody else doesn't work! YOU have a hole inside of you with regards to your self worth. So, everyone can tell you how great you are, it passes through you and you feel wonderful, then . . . it is gone. And you need more.

My H now finds his worth inside of himself. He had to! After his A, nobody thought much of him, including him. To see him rise above his failure, and see the goodness in himself for the first time, regardless of his past actions, has given him tremendous power to follow his own moral and ethical code once again.

He now talks the talk, AND walks the walk. That, my friend, is what you are seeking. Only you know if you are TRULY following the things that in your heart are important. I might see one action and say, "You are a great person based on this one action!" And you might smile and thank me and feel wonderful about yourself. BUT, you might also know, deep down, that I misinterpreted what you said or did, or that you aren't consistently doing those things. Only you really know. That is why it is dangerous to seek outside validation. It is a game. A dance. And it is false.

It is as Pep said earlier, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I believe a steadier and truer measure of what is worth esteeming about ourselves is how well we maintain our integrity in the face of a great challenge.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">if you lose your looks, job, status, physical capacity, THAT is the true measure of your worth. Stripped of everything, it is just YOU. YOU and the Lord. Everything else is just fluff. Or crap. Depends on which side of the coin you are currently gazing at.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> SS <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is hearing those types of "nice" statements a "valid" emotional need? I guess what I'm getting at is, since I didn't get a lot of positive feedback, or the self-esteem "boost" from my husband in our marriage, and then started to get some from OM, is that why I did what I did? Because I was looking to OM then to provide my self-esteem with a boost?

Was that not a valid emotional need? I'm thinking it is not, because of what PEP said about depending on someone else for that....it's too much to ask of anyone. I'm not quite clear on what I can or can't realistically "expect" from my husband in that regard.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*sigh* Okay, trying to answer this adequately without writing a doctoral thesis.

Positive mirroring is a legitimate developmental emotional need. Part of the mortar and bricks on which humans build their self esteem. Ideally, you receive enough from your parents to create a strong healthy sense of self. Except it almost never happens in actual practice. There is a therapy type which involves "reparenting" yourself and providing yourself (and your latent inner child) with positive mirroring, so you don't NEED to seek it from outside sources.

Here, I'm not talking about Harley's Emotional Needs that are intended and capable of being met in a healthy marriage relationship. I'm talking about developmental emotional needs which are required to develop a healthy sense of authentic self. Two different things.

Yes, the affirmations the OM gave you were probably a very strong draw, because it's highly unlikely you got enough affirmation from your parents growing up, even if you had a "good" "normal" childhood. Probably, early on in your relationship with H, he did provide you with lots of affirmation. Then at some point, he either stopped providing it as much, or you started "discounting" (refusing to believe) his affirmations, or both. So you needed a new source. Enter OM.

Is it "realistic" to expect a certain amount of positive affirmation from your H? Yes. I view Harley's Emotional Needs as our personal requirements/boundaries regarding the treatment we expect in a lifelong romantic relationship. BUT, it's not "realistic" to expect him to provide you with enough affirmation to buoy your sense of self worth if you do not possess a healthy sense of self on your own.

That puts him in the position of being "God" or your emotional "father figure" or parent. Which is not healthy for a marital relationship. As pepperband pointed out, it corrupts both of you. It places a level of responsibility on him for your self worth that is not appropriate. If he accepts that responsibility, he is setting himself up as "God" or "Dad" to you. Which corrupts him and fosters an unhealthy relationship environment.

Clear as mud? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ July 28, 2004, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: Kat72 ]</small>

What an excellent thread!

I am not sure about my own self-esteem/self-worth with all these definitions.

CSue said that as children esteem is fed by the parents then in adolescence we make the choice to “make it on our own (e)steem” if you pardon the pun. That is exactly what I did. I was a late bloomer. Geeky. Skinny. Picked on. At some point, I said to myself that hanging on the negative words from my peers was only making me miserable, so I stopped. It took effort and I faltered many times, but I essentially chose to not let the opinions of others matter to me as long as I was true to my core values.

Because of this almost addiction to my core values, they became the most important thing in the world to me and at this point I am very reluctant to compromise them. Down side of that is that I am also not willing to change them often, either. Balance, I think, is the key.

Kat72 mentioned that the opinions of others are like warped mirrors. I have an additional comment to that. Sometimes the “warping” does in fact exaggerate a trait or fault that we have. It is hard to admit a fault, and that “warped mirror” can be helpful in certain cases by showing us what is hard to see in our own “flat” mirrors. But if you lacked the self-esteem to survive the scrutiny, it could be devastating to you.

Onlywords - My 2 cents on a couple of your questions:

How do you have self-worth/value after yourself is stripped away? Well, the party line Christian answer is because God values you. But what does he value? It goes back to the parable of the servants with the talents. You know, where the master gives 3 servants 3, 2, and 1 talent, respectively. The first two grow the master’s money and give him more than he left them, while the last one keeps the talent safe and returns the master’s money. Yes, the last one was trustworthy but did not multiply what was given and thus did not receive the “well done” from the master.

You may be feeling right now that you are “Onlywords, compromiser of her core values” so your self-worth has taken a hit. Look at it this way, you are “Onlywords who made a bad choice.” You have forgiveness for what you have done from God and your H. It is now up to you to gain wisdom and USE that to “multiply the talents.” I actually had the conversation with one of my sons last night about mistakes. They are only bad if we don’t learn from them and use that knowledge to prevent another. Already you are contributing to this forum because of your experiences and would be missed here if you left. So what’s going on? OW is forgiven, learned from the mistake, and “multiplying the talents.” Sounds like a person who should have some self-worth to me.

Bottom line: When you are stripped away to nothing. At ground zero. At the origin in the Cartesian coordinate system. Your self-worth will IMMEDIATELY be based on the first step you take. It is relative to where you are at. Consider – when you were six, you may have been a great kid, daughter, sister, etc. But if you acted exactly the same way now, you would be considered juvenile, right? Your self-worth is not about where you are, but where you are going. Back to the Bible – the old beggar woman who tithed one coin gave everything she could and was valued. Not the amount, but the direction. While it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of the needle than for the rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. Relative. See?

Regarding words of praise coming from your husband.
Read what has been written here, your question has already been answered. Several “heavyweights” on the board have opined that self-worth is all about VALUES and not FEELINGS. (I wholeheartedly agree and would re-submit my Fruits of the Spirit here, as they are VALUES). Your husband praising you is meeting an EMOTIONAL need. That is all about feelings. I myself have words of affirmation as an emotional need. A little “you are the greatest” from RAP charges me up for a long time. It makes me FEEL good. It doesn’t define who I am. It makes me FEEL “in love” with RAP when she does it. The reason we attempt to meet our spouse’s emotional needs. So they feel “in love” (not choose to love) with us. What is wrong with your husband doing something that makes you feel good? Isn’t that what he is supposed to do? It is not a statement about your self-worth as he cannot change your values, which is what your self-worth is. It is a play to make you feel good, to pick you up when down, to meet your ENs. What those who love us are supposed to do.

So that’s my two cents.

What a great thread.

NCWalker