I have been hanging around in here for a week or so. I'm trying to learn all the lingo. Bear with me please.

My wife and I are recovering 1 1/2 years from an internet EA. I believe it was going to be a PA, but I found out about it as they were planning a meeting. I found out by loading some spy softwear on the computer, (like someone else I read about in one of the threads) I ranted and raved and she swore that it was over and that she would contact him one more time to say bye bye. I stormed out to cool off. But she went to her friends house to say the good bye, this was after I told her about the softwear. Well I found out about that and she said she only said good bye, nothing else, "I swear, I swear to god" etc. etc. I told her I didn't believe her. I told her she was a liar, because if that was true she would have WANTED me to see it, not gone over there to a more secure location to hide what she emailed. The only reason she went over to her friends was to give him another way to contact her, through the friend! Well after a long denial, she admitted that she did give him her brothers email address so he could contact her there if he needed too. Well then it was supposed to be over. We talked and cried and for about a week it was great. Then after about 10 days she calls me and tells me that he emailed her. He was just checking to make sure that she was OK. She wanted me to tell her how to respond. I told her that she should tell him that she was OK and that he should never contact her again. When I came home she showed me the email and her responce. I was satisfied. I was proud of her, and things looked pretty rosey. Later that night as I sat at the computer, up pops an email from OM saying "OK, I understand. I will lay low for a while. Let me know when the coast is clear". Attached was a few more stands to the email thread then my wife had shown me. He persuaded her to continue their "friendship". But she erased that part from what she showed me! Well I went nuts. I was going to leave. I got drunk and punched the refridgerator. In my drunkeness I sent Mr. Wonderful an email saying that I was going to hunt him down like a dog and beat him without mercy. The kids woke up and everybody was crying. It was a horrible night! I know alot of it was my fault. I could have handled it so much better!

But anyway - fast forward to present. About two months ago my wife started to leave her journel. Lying around. She leaves it on the bed, or open on her night stand. She writes in some kind of shorthand that I can't read. She will write a few words in english like..."I'm so bord.." then a pharagraph or a page that I can't read. Then she might write "...nothing I say matters around here..." and a page in her shorthand. (Bordom was one of the reasons stated for the EA, and something she talked to OM about a lot)

Its driving me nuts! I see it on her night stand open and all that stuff that is written in a special way to be kept secret from me...why? It's like she knows I see it. She knows I will examine it, and she must know it will cause me pain and anguish? But I understand she is entitled to some privicy, she should feel like she can write in a journel without me reading it...I know that...I want to trust her, but the whole thing is driving me crazy!

Am I over reacting to this?...should I scan the pages and email to someone to translate?...should I ignore it? I know compared to what some of you are going through it seems so trivial. But I could use some advice!

<small>[ August 02, 2004, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: Mugsy ]</small>

Mugsy,

Welcome to MB. You need to do more reading here like the book Surviving an Affair and His Needs/Her Needs. Both are by Dr W. Harley.

Also get the book Love must be tough by Dr. James Dobson. U may need that one right away.

Sounds like the A isn't over. You are no longer in recovery.

Get with a good MC immediately. Know that your W maybe trying to push you to the anger state so she can file and get away with her A.

How is she treating the children? Protect your finances.

The WS and OM are plotting against you and the family. So is your BIL.

Can you put together a support group? Make sure you inform your BIL that you know he is support the A. He may have been duped into it so becareful not to accuse him. Ask if he realizes he is supporting the A.

Have a good talk with your children to see what they know. Reassure them of your love and become each other's support.

Keep posting.
L.

So this means I'm not nuts, I'm not overreacting, not paranoid, not crazy!!??

She is wonderful to the kids. A fairytail mother! And she has been sweet to me lately. Kind, and attentive. She has done some nice things that I noticed and appriciated. Our intimate life has usually been Ok and it hasn't changed in any way. Except that if I happen to look over and see the journal during intimacy, it can have a bit of a deflating effect on the moment. THAT DAMB BOOK with that secret writing!!!!

No, the BIL never aided her. He talked to me about it, and said he he told WW that she was nuts, didn't know anything about this guy, could be a stalker etc. I'm pretty sure he was in my corner.

I am not as sure as you are that the A is on again Orchid. MAybe she feels that after 1 1/2 years she is entitled to some privacy. And this is her way of showing me that she wants, and expects me to trust her?

If I get the journal translated and it all a bunch of stuff about kids, and periods, and other harmless "private" woman stuff I would feel horrible!! AND If it's all OM stuff I will feel horrible (worse). I can't win!!

WHAT SHOULD I DO?

Read up about POJA (policy of joint agreement) and radical honesty.

Her A has destroyed your trust in her. Her actions with the journal are suspicous.

Many a WS try to setup the BS:

1. Make the BS think they are crazy (you are not)
2. Make the BS feel guilty (you should not)
3. Make the BS feel angry (you should not)
4. Make the BS feel frustrated and hurt.
5. Make the BS file the separation or divorce paperwork (you should not).

Has any of her other habits changed? Excessive spending, irradic behavior, etc.?

What are your children saying?

I still recommend you do some reading. Learn where you can make positive changes. She may acknowledge your changes and say she is afraid you will not stay that way. That's fog babble. Don't fall for it.

Get with a good IC/MC or setup phone counseling with Steve or Jennfier here @ MB. See a doctor for STD & depression if you need.

Keep a journal of your own and keep posting.

L.

She seems to be very sweet to me latley. More available for intimacy, doing and saying nice things. The only thing out of the ordinary is the journel.

Orchid, I can't talk to my kids about this! What would I say, what can I ask a G12 or a B13 about that would help me. I'm pretty sure there is no internnet stuff going on because of the spyware. She knows about it and maybe could have installed a counter spy program, but I don't think so. She is not sofisticated on the computer, and she would not know whether or not I have upgraded the spyware. We have four kids, the oldest is working most of the day in the summer, but the other three are home. I asked about what they do all, day and they are not going to the library, or spending time at a friends house (with a computer) Her cell bills come to my office, so I check them from time to time and they seem OK, and nothing out of the ordinary on the home phone bills. If she is still in EA, then she is taking extra extrodinary measures to conceal it.

What should I do about the journel, should I have it translated? Should I talk to her about it?

It seems that she's leaving the journal around for you to read. There's something she wants to say to you but doesn't feel that you two can communicate. A counselor will help you with this. Either she's afraid to communicate or afraid of your reaction. This "man" was giving her something that she needed from you. Find out what that is. You need to get the bottom of this as she'll one way or the other find a way to communicate with him. Instead of treating the symptom, find the source of the problem.

JPH,

If she wanted to tell me something I suppose leaving the journel around for me to see would work, but not if it is written in some kind of shorthand code. To me it seems like she is trying to show me that I don't know everything. She can conceal things from me if she wants. But why would she want to do that. We have been doing quite well I thought. She would have to know it would cause me pain, no?

I appreciate the postings from you and Orchid, but no one has answered my direct question..Should I confront her on the journal? should I ask her to tell me what it says? should I ignore it? should I have it translated. Should I have it translated and THEN ask her what it says? I will read the book and the POJA, but what do I do today!?

Mugsy,

U want instant resolution for a problem that has been going on for a long time.

U have a choice to either step back and plan properly or go gung ho headlong, ask and take the risk of getting hurt.

IMHO, I recommend you read up first to learn HOW to ask the best way to minimize your pain (because there w/b some hurt) and get a more
truthful response.

If you absolutely must, you can pick up the journal and flip through it in front of her, ask her if she is taking up a foreign language course. Depending on the response, walk away as if it doesn't bother you. That may make her wonder and you may see if she is doing that just to get your goat.

Up to you. Patience sucks but it is worth the effort.

L.

Orchid,

Thanks for your posts. Just knowing that I am normal to be offended and hurt by her behavior was the most important thing to me.

I am not looking for instant resoluton. I have been dealing with this on my own for over 1 1/2 years, and dealing with the "journal issue" for over two months. When I found this place I was looking for help in learning how to communicate better and more truthfully with my spouse. It was a huge releif to see so many people with similar problems and so many people dealing with EA's as if they were significant and destructive incidences. Some of my friends feel that if not a PA then not an A at all!

I don't have to "go gung ho head long in". I am a business man, a stratigist. I play life like I play chess. (except when I am drunk and pissed off!) I sat back for weeks reading my W's words written to and unseen fanticy man, and never interfered until a meeting was discussed. I have patients, if that is what is required. I was just frustrated because I wanted some of you with the experience and expertice to tell me that what I was doing, (nothing), was right or wrong. If wrong what then is right? I don't want to be patient and then find out I should have been ACTING, investigating, doing something.

Just knowing that I am normal to be hurt by it is a huge help. I thought I was making too much out of her just wanting a little privicy! But why not put it in her sock drawer or something were I wouldn't see it. Why out for me to see, in that writing I can't read. Is it a need for power? Independance? Or was it just to watch me squirm, and see my blood boil. To make me mad and to hurt me?

I am very new, what is IMHO? WHat is Plan A. Except for the journel thing I thought this was all past us. Are you saying that part of the plan I need is to bring it all up again?

Mugsy,

Thanks for your response. I recommend the following:

1. Read the concepts section above and familarize yourself with the plan A and plan B concepts put together by Dr Harley.

2. Read the books: Surviving an Affair, His Needs/Her Needs & Giver/Taker. All are by Dr W. Harley. Also the book: Love must be tough by Dr James Dobson is good. These books will help you keep a clear mind.

3. Get with a good MC. Do some phone counseling if possible with Jennifer C here @ MB. She is great working with WS wives and will help you also.

4. Pray for a clear mind, a calm heart and lots of patience.

5. Create a support system for yourself and your family. It c/b as simple as stroking your cat or dog to getting 1 on 1 help from your MC, children, neighbor, co-worker, etc. You'd be surprised where the support will come from. Also we are here.

I am glad to hear you have a level head and want to deal with it by taking the best approach. Unfortunately it will not be without additional pain and hurt.

I am sorry you have been dealing with this mess for a while. Most of us have.

U R quite sane. Let's keep it that way.

How are your children?

U have a lot to do. We will help.

There are some pretty great MBers that have helped many and many more getting better and stronger each day. Let's see if we can round up a few, ok? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

take care,
L.

I read the "Basic Concepts", but cant seem to locate the Plan A, Plan B stuff. I'm sure it's there staring me in the face, but i couldn't see it. Can you send a link or tell me where to find it.

Any help you and all the MB's can give is appreciated. I have to admitt I still feel a little guilty about making such a big deal out of a Journel. I hate to dig up the whole EA again if I don't have to. But I will listen to you all, and do what I have to do.

Mugsy, there is alot to read - I too must look at Plan A 7 B, as our MB coaching starts Monday! IMHO, means in my humble opinion; there is a link to acronyms used on the site - a VERY long list. I guess I should print them out, because I only can remember a few, not like in younger days. Getting back to opinions tho, both H & W must be totally honest and no secrets. This is why we are trying MB; been to others and since my H won't stop lying/secrets, there is no base to build the trust back upon. In the outside marriage counselling world, it's been my experience that society says it's ok to be lax in a marriage (ie., drinking, physical abuse, same gender friends, keeping secret journals, lying...) As long as you pay for the therapy, who cares if the marriage gets fixed! Our most recent therapist even called my H on weekends about doing real estate deals!! How biased is he now? Ask you W not to keep secret journals, emails, etc at this point in your healing process. Maybe MB coaching will help?

Thanks jannie,

Where is the list of acronyms?

I still haven't found Plan A and B.

Thanks for your post. What is the difference between Privicy and Secrecy. Has my W lost the right to have a secret (private)journel because of the EA? Or did she never have such a right?

Good luck with your H, and your MB coaching!

Unless some one can tell me that is is wrong, I am going to confront myW about the journel this wekend. I am going to tell her about MB and that I am not paranoid, or obsessed. I am going to tell her that it would be very norman for a BS to be concerned and hurt about the journel and the secret writing. I am going to tell her that I have a right to know what it says if it concernd me, our relationship, or our family. I am going to say that I have asked you for support and ideas, and that some of you feel that she has prob continued or restarted the EA. I will tell her that others feel she might have smething she whats to tell me but that she is afraid, so that is why the journel writing and leaving it out for me to see, because she wants/needs me to ask about it. I am going to tell her that I am hurt by this, but calm and willing to start our recovery over, this time with a plan, not just the two of us, but the two of us, this web site, and all of you. I have printed off the Basic Objectives, the consept of radical honesty, the Recogizing Luv busters, The luv busters questionair for H and W, and the radical honesty questionair. I am planning on presenting this package to her with the idea that we will read it together, discuss it, and then fill out the questionairs.

Is this right, or wrong. If wrong what should I do different.

Mugsy,

I only have a few minutes here but my H had an internet A. It went PA in less than 2 months. It lasted 3 years. 3 painfully long years. I found MB 3 months after it started.

I too, read the concepts section, copied it all into a binder with the questionnaires and gave it to my WS to read. He started to but his anger took the better of him and I found that giving him all my info was giving him more ammo to use against me.

I pulled back. I used MB to strengthen me and not teach him. I let him know that I loved my H, the one I married but not the man he had become. I did let him know that his actions were bringing hurt to the family but didn't know why. I left that for him to explain.

I recommend you read up a bit more before you make you findings known to your W. Get the book, His needs/Her needs. It will help you see how women think different from men a bit and how to use that info to your advantage.

Remember you are now fighting for your M.

take care,
L.

Orchid,

I can't tell you how much I appreciate your advice. My W EA lasted about 2 months too, and OM wanted to meet her. She never agreed to the meeting, but she never said no either. Before it came to that I interviened.

The difference here from yours is that there never was a PA, and I have no other eveidence that the EA or PA is still taking place. I am very perceptive and not I have no moral delemma about checking up. As my old boss used to say, "inspect what you expect", in other words, even if I believe her and expect that all is OK, it is my responcibility to verrify my feelings with facts. Because my feelings will often reflect my hopes, and wishes not actual facts. SO in this scenerio we have a WW and a BH who seem to have been making a successful recovery. No signs of anything, no computer or phone activity, no unaccounted for time, just this journel with the secret writing. I accept the possibility that EA has restarted, and maybe never ended, and I accept that the writing mite be about a new EA or even a PA, but I must also accept the possibility that she is simplty writing her feelings, struggles with weight (always dieting), and just normal women stuff that she wants to keep private. I have also seen her use this secret short hand to write grocery lists, because she can write so much faster. So maybe she uses it because she can write fast enough to keep up with her thoughts. The point is, in your situation you knew what was going on, you knew it was THE WORST of possibilities. I don't know, and I have no eveidence, so although I accept the possibility that it is THE WOST OF ALL POSSIBILITIES, I must also accept the possibility that it is the BEST OF ALL POSSIBILITIES. That nothing is going on, the EA is over and never started again, she wrote about regulare girl stuff, and how I don't appreciete her or she was mad because I didn't take the garbage out, and she is depressed cuz she can't loose that extra 10 pound, and she left it lying around for me to see because she didn't think it was a big deal.

I have taken digital pic's of the writing, I will ask her to tell me what it says, and I will email it to an expert and verrify that she has been truthful.

I will hold off making my decsision final while I think about it more. I appreciate your opinion Orchid, and thank you for sharing it. Does anyone else think I am wrong? Does any other experienced MBer have an opinion??

Read the links below.

Thank you Chris,

I have read some of the attached. I did read all of Plan A. Is it your opinion then that if handled with respect, and love, not anger, hostility and unreasonable demands that my plan is OK?

Yeah, but I definitely think you need some joint counseling to help the communication between you both.

Here is an excellent book on the subject.
<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0399521372/qid=1091205893/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ka_1/103-8243083-6143823?v=glance&s=books&n=507846" target="_blank">We Can Work It Out: How to Solve Conflicts, Save Your Marriage, and Strengthen Your Love for Each Other
by Clifford Notarius,</a>

My wife and I are recovering 1 1/2 years from an internet EA
How did you "recover"? It simply ended (maybe)?
What did both of you do to work through the issues? Counseling at all?

Mugsy, the acronyms at found under the Infidelity section of forum, Just Found Out, first post. Also Plans A & B are found on the MB Website, under Coping with Infidelity, last items in list on left side of page. It is difficult sometimes to find things here and ALOT to read. I gave my husband some basic reading (printed out), since he does not have the patience to read much on the computer. Just give your W a little at a time, then talk. Or she can go online and read at her pace, then talk. I do believe Dr. Harley says honesty in a marriage is extremely important and there are no secrets (privacy). What is there to be private about (going to the bathroom?)? Certainly, you both should be able to talk about anything, even if you don't agree. Goal is to be best friends. I with my H was my best friend; instead, it's his oldest adult son (boy talk?). Lots of secrets and lies in our marriage - that's why we are trying MB coaching on Monday. Good luck with your W and the journal thing.