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Thanks Jannie,
I just realized that we were also talking on another thread.
Is that 100% honesty REALLY true Jannie. If, for example I have been having fatasy's about my wifes best friend, but there have been no contact between us, no flirting, no anything. And there is no threat of any EA or PA between the two of us, what good comes from telling my W about those fantasy's. It may hurt her, or make her less secure. Especially if the friend has a better body, or is prettier, or taller, or bigger breasts, or smaller breasts, what ever my wife sees as her downfall. I'm not saying that you are wrong, I'm just wondering, what good comes out of that kind of complete honesty??!!
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Can anyone help me with the 100% absolute honesty question?
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Hi Mugsy,
Welcome to MB!
Just wanted to give you my perspective on 100% honesty and some things that I've learned along the way...
Before we started MC, my W would fill up a journal a month... I never read them. After we started MC in 2001, she would leave her journal out every so often... and I read them... then blew up at her over some of the things that I read and didn't understand.
It took me several months for me to learn how to control my anger and my temper when we were discussing my W's A's... My W didn't feel "safe" in answering any of my questions because my first reaction was to blow up and become angry with her. Our MC kept telling me that I had to start working on myself before we could start working on "us". That just made me even angrier... I mean, WHO had the A's here?... and now the MC is telling ME that I was the one that was slowing us down?
Looking back at that hurtful time, I now realize just how true our MC's guidance and advice was... Once I showed my W that I could respond to her answers to my questions in a godly, mature manner, she really started opeing up to me. It was only then, that I really felt that she was being completely honest with her answers.
Take a good look at how you respond to your W... if you are angry and suspicious with her when you ask questions about her EA, then IMHO, I suspect that she's going to have a hard time being 100% honest with you for her fear of your reaction to her answers.
You must learn to ask your questions in a non-threatening way, then be able to control your emotions once she answers your question... I believe that once you start doing this, and keep doing it for a long period of time (several months), that your W will begin to trust YOUR reactions and will start to feel safe in being honest with you...
If you can do this, then I would definitely recommend asking her about her journal...
Semper Fi,
RIF90
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Thanks RIF. I can do that. but are you saying that if I respond with suspicion I am LB? I mean if someone has lied alot how do you fake trust. I don't really trust what she tells me about this stuff unless I can verify it. I believe that she may be telling the truth. But I also know that she is very willing to lie. If she lies to me and I respond with no anger, but in a rational, reasonable respectful way I tell he that I know she is lying is that OK? No LB? How do I say it to her?
"W, I know I have acted angry and demanding in the past when you told me things I didn't want to hear. So maybe that is why you feel you can not be truthful with me now. But I can assure you that I want to hear the truth, and I need to hear the truth. I know your not being truthful, and while I understand why, I can not continue this conversation unless you can trust me with the truth".
Hows that?
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Good but not for fogheads.
Try: 'Lying really makes me upset. It is much easier to deal with the truth. It may hurt a bit but at least it doesn't get worse with another lie. Howz about we be honest with each other. If there is something sensitive to tell, we say something, like can I please ask you a question or may I please tell you something that is important to me?'
L.
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Hi Mugsy, I think you should ALWAYS be honest with your feelings, regardless of how that makes your W feel. Honesty works both ways... You are only responsible for YOUR feelings, just as your W is responsible for HER feelings. In your situation, you said that you don't trust your W... OK, there's nothing wrong with you feeling that way, especially if her actions haven't been trustworthy... It's all in how you convey your feelings to her that determines if it's a LB or not. For example, you could say "You're still lying to me! I don't trust you one bit!!!"... or you could say "I feel hurt when you keep things from in your diary." Let her know your feelings without accusing her... it takes some practice, but once you get the hang of it, it will help. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ...I know your not being truthful, and while I understand why, I can not continue this conversation unless you can trust me with the truth". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Try not to "think" for her... just let her know that you are hurt/angry/sad/whatever by her actions... she may be telling the truth... Your responsiblity is to let her know how her actions are affecting YOU and how YOU feel. You can't "make" her be honest with you... she's the only one that can do that. Take her answers at "face value" until her actions prove otherwise... if her actions continue to be untrustworty, then by all means, don't tell her that you trust her! As she continues to act in a trustworthy manner, I think you'll find that your trust in her will return. Hope this helps... Semper Fi, RIF90
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Ok, If I take her at face value until I know otherwise is it LB to check up om her? Sge says I am major snoop. Do I keep snooping and catching lies?
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If someone broke into your house, wouldn't you start checking to make sure your doors and windows are locked each night before you go to bed?...
It's much the same after an A... If your W has had NC for a while, you probably don't need to check as often. If she's still in contact, then you might want to be a bit more vigilant...
Remember, YOU must learn to control your actions when you find out any information that may hurt... It hurts when you find new information, especially if you find out that your W is lying to you...
Semper Fi,
RIF90
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What if in your snooping you detect other lies. Maybe ones that aren't directly related to the EA? Do you expose them. Do you express how they make you feel? Or just keep quite and know that you can't believe what she says, prob not ever again? I think if I keep calling her on them, and showing her how much they damage our relationship, I can convince her to stop lying, and start thinking of me as a friend who want's to hear her secrets and not someone who she should be matching wits with.
Lies are like termites, when you find one, you know there are 1000 more, you just don't know where they are hiding or how much damage they are doing!!
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Dear Mugsy, Cloud and Townsend, Boundaries, recommend loving confrontation. They recommend having that difficult conversation. My opinion is that there are a lot of types of lies, and types of liars. It does not sound like you understand the types of lies, or the flow of lies. Trust can be maintained by understanding hte types and directions for a person's lies. I don't trust a number of aspects of my wife's statments or silences. But I unserstand the direction of her half-truths. So I bring things up if something seems to be getting too far out of line. One step in looking behind a person's words, is to understand the direction of their falsehoods. What types of lies is W telling you? There are fanciful confabulations interwoven with a few facts. There are lies to get out of trouble. There are lies to cover a secret. There are lies to be considerate to someone. There are lies that are simply the opposite of the truth Dr. Harley recommends Radical Total Honesty. I practice RH by avoiding doing things which I would have to keep secret from my W. Could you talk a little more about how you observe boundaries that your W desires? Boundaries, Cloud and Townsend, suggest first looking to yourself, to be sure you are being a boundary loving spouse. Then work on asking and negotiating boundaries for your spouse to observe. I don't particularly trust my wife, but I if I feel things are getting out of hand, then I make waves. Generally things go fairly smoothly. If you follow the Love Diet, I think you will have less to worry about. Your comments don't indicate that you are being sufficiently romantically attentive to W. Here's a few references: HANDLING AND CHANGING OVERLY CONTROLLING ACTS Love Must Be Tough, by Dr. James C. Dobson, Tyndale House, 1996 MB Thread on The Love Diet The Love Diet Chapter of WHAT WOMEN WANT MEN TO KNOW by Barbara DeAngelis Poor Couple Communication caused by Controlling Acts JEALOUSY How to Easily Catch a Cheating Lover, catchacheat.comOvercoming Excessively Jealous Comments and Outbursts, nomorejealousy.com Handling Jealousy in Love Relations, romanceclass.com BOUNDARIES IN MARRIAGE (1999), by Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend, Available in Leather, ISBN 0-310-24612-1, Hard back: ISBN 0-310-22151-X, and Paper Back: ISBN 0-310-24314-9 (Soft Cover) Zondervan, Grand Rapids, Michigan 49530. Boundaries in Marriage Workbook, Paperback, ISBN 0-310-22875-1. Boundaries, Face to Face (2003) by Henry Cloud and John Townsend cloudtownsend.com www.drhenrycloud.comwww.newlife.comBoundaries Course Video, with Cloud and Townsend, comes with the Boundaries in Marriage, the Particpant's Guide and the Instructor's Guide. http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=1813624&sourceid=1500000000000000040820 Boundaries Groups: overcomersoutreach.org Overcomer's Outreach Boundaries Groups celebraterecovery.com Celebrate Recovery Boundarie Groups Lecture Reservations: newlife.com 1-800-new life Blessings <small>[ August 07, 2004, 01:52 AM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>
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