I have another post under Emotional Needs which is a direct result of W-EMA-OM. I will not re-hash that situation here; but have some “fundamental” disagreements about Dr. Harley’s overall approach on EMA’s. Let me explain and wait for some thoughts!

My only disclaimer: I’ve been studying MB/HNHN since the mid-90’s; but only the sections concerning “marriage”. I am now faced with learning (and reading) about infidelity!


• There are several cases in MB (and HNHH if I remember correctly) where Dr. H says he is a believer in equitable marriages.

• However the undeniable fact throughout the “infidelity” section is one of imbalance – in favor of the betrayer and to the further discomfort of the betrayed.


• I know, I know; the EMA began due to LB and UEN’s from the BS! However; aren’t these actually just very strong assumptions? And the “reasonableness” of the EN’s are not taken into consideration.


Ex: H likes for W to rub his back every other evening. W enjoys doing this. After a few years; W stops enjoying this; (W has taken another job due to financial issues.) so rubs H back only every 3-4-5 nights. H asks why? “My job has become more demanding and I am very tired when I get home”. H “does not like to talk about things” so H withdraws emotionally despite continued attempts by W to come to a better solution. All H knows is that EN’s are not being met. As H’s EN’s are no longer being met; H has an EMA. W has never considered EMA or D, has tried for years to “break through the walls”, and meet EN’s of H, but simply cannot.

According to MB; it is now W’s responsibility to go through Plan-A and/or Plan-B, both of which are devastating in and of themselves. W is expected to “understand” that WH may or may not be finished with EMA and when/if WH does return; BW is supposed to “approach the wayward spouse with respect and thoughtfulness”…

Admittedly; this is a tough case; however very realistic. My question is: If marriage is supposed to be about equality, fairness, etc. why wouldn’t equality and fairness be considered after the EMA?

Important to Note: I am not talking about Blame or vengeance. Agreed that neither is productive or healthy! I am talking about personal accountability & consequences to choices and thoughtful considerations for BS.

Opinions…

These approaches are for use when the BS wants to save the M, and the WS doesn't think they want to. IMO, these methods are to help turn both spouses back towards each other, so that M recovery is possible. Once in marital recovery, Plans A and B are not applicable. They are just for ending the affair, and bringing the WS back to the M.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> According to MB; it is now W’s responsibility to go through Plan-A and/or Plan-B, both of which are devastating in and of themselves. W is expected to “understand” that WH may or may not be finished with EMA and when/if WH does return; BW is supposed to “approach the wayward spouse with respect and thoughtfulness”…
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And, in a M, both spouses should always make it a point to approach each other with respect and thoughtfulness. These basic principles extend into recovery, and help make marriages stronger and better and healthy.

The part of yourself that will have problems with this approach is what Dr. Harley calls your Taker, and what our MC calls the Ego. Coming at this approach from a space of the Giver, from unconditional love - where you expect nothing in return for expressing the love you have for your partner - makes this an entirely different experience.

IMVHO.

SS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> the EMA began due to LB and UEN&#8217;s from the BS </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This wasn't an indication of WHY the EA/PA happened, Harley explains that with these two factors leaves the M VULNERABLE to A.

All the rules change when infidelity is involved.

In many cases the BS in the beginning does have an unequal balance, but in SOME cases, if it weren't for the BS pulling out all the stops, and allowing a period of imbalance, many marriages wouldn't make it to the recovery stage.

According to MB; it is now W’s responsibility

or is it a choice? Perhaps option is a better word.

Max

I think that Spider Slaye hit it on the head: the MB approaches; Plan A, avoiding LB, meeting emotional needs, etc. are tools used by the BS if they want to save the marriage. If they don't they can just tell the WS to F'-off and get a divorce. The 'program' is designed, as I understand it, to cause the WS to give the marriage a second look . . . to cause them to realize what they may be losing if they continue along the path they are on. MB is not, especially Plan A, about fairness. That is why there are proposed time limits that should keep one from becoming a doormat.

I don't remember anyone saying that life is fair . . . marriages aren't either.

If you are going to start keeping score, match insult for insult, I think you are in for a very uncomfortable marriage.

<small>[ July 30, 2004, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: Comfortably Numb ]</small>

I know you're gonna hate hearing this (again), but it really does come down to "Do you want to be right, or do you want to be married?"

It's a legitimate question that essentially asks you to decide whether the injustice done to you is too great for you to forgive.

It's only through forgiveness that you will ever regain 'balance' or 'equality'. There is nothing the WS can do to recompense for the damage done, and you certainly do not want to go down the "eye for an eye" route.

Harley's methods ask you to extend grace and focus on things that build your marriage. Punishing your spouse might make you feel better, but it doesn't build your marriage and may well destroy what's left of it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> However; aren’t these actually just very strong assumptions? And the “reasonableness” of the EN’s are not taken into consideration. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">They are strong assumptions made by an individual whose methods have proven track record of restoring marriages. That track record makes them pretty weighty in my mind.

Additionally, YOU don't get to decide just how "reasonable" your spouses ENs are. You only get to decide if you are willing to try and meet them. To make judgements about the reasonableness of anothers emotional needs is EXTREMELY disrespectful on your part.

Just some things to think about from the WS perspective.

Low

<small>[ July 30, 2004, 10:16 AM: Message edited by: LowOrbit ]</small>

If marriage is supposed to be about equality, fairness, etc. why wouldn’t equality and fairness be considered after the EMA?
It is. Why do you suggest it would not be?

It's not cut & dry when the "fairness" gets to start. Like building a model, you have to wait for glue to dry before you can start painting it and you have towait for the paint to dry before you can stick on the decals, etc.

The minute the affair ends is not the time to immediately start expecting the BS ENs to be met.
Gotta let the WS "just get over the affair" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .
Gotta get the WS into the (MB) plan and see that it is a win-win situation.

The timelines for the WS and the BS are offset. The affair began before the BS knew anything was going on. This is when the timeline for the WS begins. The BS does not start until D-DAY, sometimes 3 years down the line.
Same thing for the WS. Once d-day happens, the BS starts doing (whatever) trying to make sense of it all. They find MB and start using these principles. This takes a while for the BS to get into it and understand what it is they are trying to do and if they even want to do it.

Now the affair ends. The ws needs some time to get over the affair.
They also need time to feel that the marriage is even worth doing anything about cause when the affair ends, they usually feel pretty darn bad about everything.

Make sense?

Someone previously asked a similar question.
"Why does the BS have to do all the work to save the marriage?"
The answer is because the ws is not interested in saving the marriage. Not that they want it to end, they are just disinterested in doing anything to help it.
This person just could not understand that the ws was not interested in saving the marriage and that the ws needed to do everything they could to save it.

<small>[ July 30, 2004, 10:16 AM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Fishracer:
<strong> .... My question is: If marriage is supposed to be about equality, fairness, etc. why wouldn’t equality and fairness be considered after the EMA?

Important to Note: I am not talking about Blame or vengeance. Agreed that neither is productive or healthy! I am talking about personal accountability & consequences to choices and thoughtful considerations for BS.

Opinions… </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fishracer,

Welcome to the Infidelity Board. You are correct to say that Dr H and others say that marriage s/b equitable. The A puts the M out of balance and that continued state of imbalance is because one of the spouses (or in some cases even both) choose to promote the qualities needed to keep the marriage in balance. Selfishness and greed are the 2 common factors in all EA/PA relationships. That illness can not function without causing dysfunction in the M. It can be hiden or ignored for a while but the dysfunction continues and must eventually rear it's ugly head.

What Dr Harley and his staff here @ MB does show is how to deal with this when our marriages are affected by this A disease. It is like a sickness, one meant to not just hurt but destroy our families.

Please read the concept sections again and review the book: Surviving an Affair.

Dealing with infidelity is a totally different animal than dealing with a M. The ground work and rules require one take a totally different approach. In most cases even quite foreign to normal human behavior.

You may have heard the terms fog, alien mother ship, fog babble, etc., these terms are used to describe the very strange words, feelings and actions conveyed to the BS and family by the WS and OP.

Think about it, how often does a stranger enter your home and great an upheaval in your life to the point where you want to end it all? At the same time being in the dark as to what is really going on? This same person is now robbing you blind, rendering you homeless, you feel threatened, no longer safe even in your own home, loss of friends, family, pets, jobs, finances and even your sanity are just some of what happens to many BS and family. In addition to that depression and STD hang out there on the fringes hovering over you, threatening to come in and do unrepairable damage.

That's just the beginning. So you see, this is a different animal all it's own. But help to cope with it and the support for it is here. It is real and it works. Even for the most skeptic of visitors, MB has made a good impact. At the very least we learn how to improve ourselves, stand up and save what is ours, then gain the strength to move forward.

Hope this helps.
L.

ditto the other responders

But let me try a simpler explanation:

Do you recall the words, "....in good times and in bad"?

Obviously, an affair is one of the bad times.

Why focus on what's fair? Focus on what you want and how to get it. Life's not fair so why would you think Marriage would be? The best line I ever heard was a speaker at a business luncheon when someone told him, life's not fair. His response....Fair is a place you take a pig, not business. Get over it and focus on the goal.

Thanks everyone who has responded. W & I problems are directly related to “unconditional love” ie: Spiderslayer! Part of W’s expectation of UL is for me to give it; (Total UL) and for her not to be responsible for sending it. (Hence the catch-22!) We've had this actual conversation and I've tried like &#^% for 15 years but realize I am unable!

Spider Slayer, Betrayedinjersey, madmax: Great Posts. Perspectives of each helped make MB’s methods of working through infidelity “sensible”. Marriage should be =, infidelity never is, recovery (choice) of marriage must be = to succeed!!!

Comfortably Numb: Thanks! Agree with all you wrote except for: Just remember; it is Dr. Harley who says marriage should be equal, (fair)! I just happen to agree.

LowOrbit: I know you're gonna hate hearing this (again), but it really does come down to "Do you want to be right, or do you want to be married?"
It's a legitimate question that essentially asks you to decide whether the injustice done to you is too great for you to forgive.

Gotta disagree with this. Right & Wrong is non-productive; BTDT. Besides; there will never be anything “right” about infidelity. Forgiveness has nothing to do with fairness. Forgiveness is for the FS to offer for their own better good and is related to the WS only indirectly. I have no interest in punishing WS. (When seeking to kill for revenge-better dig 2-graves!)

Additionally, YOU don't get to decide just how "reasonable" your spouses ENs are. You only get to decide if you are willing to try and meet them. To make judgements about the reasonableness of anothers emotional needs is EXTREMELY disrespectful on your part.

Yes; I do get to decide how reasonable my spouses EN’s are; which is what happens prior to marriage. If I disagree with future spouses EN’s (or FS disagrees with mine) each of us then gets to make the CHOICE of whether to marry or not!!! Otherwise; all marriages should be “arranged”. This is exactly why so many marriages and families become damaged. If a spouse desires to alter EN’s; there should be discussion and POJA goes into effect! It is EXTREMELY disrespectful when a spouse changes their EN’s w/o notifying FS!


Chris -CA123: “The WS needs some time to get over the affair.” This is the part that I’m having problems with! Others have explained that it is totally unfair that BS must do this in order to move on with WS. I agree that it is highly unfair-but I’m working on accepting it-for the better good!

Orchid: Awesome Post. Eloquent, Considerate and Articulate. Made my day!!!

Worthatry: I do not feel that God’s intent for “bad times” in our vows was infidelity – but like above; I am working on accepting it.

Fishracer said

<strong>Yes; I do get to decide how reasonable my spouses EN’s are; which is what happens prior to marriage. If I disagree with future spouses EN’s (or FS disagrees with mine) each of us then gets to make the CHOICE of whether to marry or not!!! Otherwise; all marriages should be “arranged”. This is exactly why so many marriages and families become damaged. If a spouse desires to alter EN’s; there should be discussion and POJA goes into effect! It is EXTREMELY disrespectful when a spouse changes their EN’s w/o notifying FS!</strong>

Wow, I can't belive you really think this way. The EN’s of a spouse are not for you to agree with or not. You can agree to fulfill them or not, that is it. Do you really think you should have the power to decide what your spouse needs to make her happy?

People’s needs change during life. I doubt that someone will have the same need for sex when they are 70 as when they are 30 . . . so I guess I don’t agree with you about making these choices before marriage. Again, people change.

You cannot POJA someone else’s needs. You can, however, POJA how those needs are met. Do you see the distinction? I don’t know if I’m being clear here.

Comfortably Numb:

After reading my statement; I realize that it could be understood differently than I meant for it to; so please let me try again:

Yes; I do get to decide how reasonable my spouses EN’s are; which is what happens prior to marriage. (In other words; when we are courting, before marriage, there is a constant and perhaps subtle evaluation going on at all times by both people. “Does this person meet my needs about this, this and that? Do I meet this person’s needs about X,Y, &Z? And so on.) If I disagree with future spouses EN’s (or FS disagrees with mine) [during this courtship] , each of us then gets to make the CHOICE of whether to marry each other or not!!! Otherwise; all marriages could be “arranged” and the POJA would be utilized for every decision. This is exactly why so many marriages and families become damaged. If a spouse desires to alter (their own) EN’s (during the marriage, as both are committed, living as one and subsequently affected by EN’s) ; there should be discussion and POJA goes into effect! It is EXTREMELY disrespectful when a spouse changes their EN’s w/o notifying FS (during the marriage) !

People’s needs change during life. I doubt that someone will have the same need for sex when they are 70 as when they are 30 . . . so I guess I don’t agree with you about making these choices before marriage. Again, people change.

I agree that people need change during life. However; when that change is such that it negatively effects S EN's; the outcome is probably not going to be pleasant. Your example about sex from 30 to 70 is a good one. Perhaps W desires more sex at 50 than H (for any reason). W should at the very least discuss it (or H can bring it up; that part does not matter-as long as one of them does) and together come to an understanding agreement (POJA). When spouses get to the infidelity stage, the likely reason is that W does not discuss her increased sex needs (or H does not discuss his decreased SN), and one or the other commits adultery because their EN's are not being met. It's the age-old problem; "If you love me enough-you would know this" mind-reading scenario or they simply do not communicate. Either way is a recipe for disaster!

Does this make better sense? I hope this helps to clear up our disagreement!

FR

Otherwise; all marriages could be “arranged” and the POJA would be utilized for every decision.
The POJA should be used in EVERY marriage anyway.

If a spouse desires to alter (their own) EN’s (during the marriage, as both are committed, living as one and subsequently affected by EN’s) ; there should be discussion and POJA goes into effect!
Not really. You don’t desire to change your emotional needs, you change them for a variety of reasons. What happened when you woke up this morning, what you had for dinner last night, having kids, the fight you had last week, etc.

It is EXTREMELY disrespectful when a spouse changes their EN’s w/o notifying FS (during the marriage) !
Huh? It’s disrespectful when a spouse doesn’t do something to find out what their spouses ENs are.

However; when that change is such that it negatively effects S EN's;
How is your spouses needs going to affect yours negatively? A spouse should fill the needs of the other based on what the others needs are, not on what their own needs are.
If your needs are to have sex three times a week, then your spouse should do what she has to, to fill that need.

When spouses get to the infidelity stage, the likely reason is that W does not discuss her increased sex needs (or H does not discuss his decreased SN), and one or the other commits adultery because their EN's are not being met.
Not really. Contrary to popular belief, affairs are almost never because there is not enough sex in the marriage, although that may be a small part of it.

It's the age-old problem; "If you love me enough-you would know this" mind-reading scenario or they simply do not communicate. Either way is a recipe for disaster!
Yes it is. But it is not about filling the needs, it is about communication (or lack there of).

Dr. Harley makes many references to the Reluctant Spouse on his radio show. My guess is that the spouse involved in an affair is usually the Reluctant Spouse. He has given up on his spouse meeting his ENs and has become vulnerable to someone else doing it. Plan A is used to convince the spouse that his is under a misconception -- that the BS can meet those ENs.


What he means by equitable, I think, is that the needs of both spouses need to be met.
Cherished