How are you doing? Everything ok?

ML

Thanks... I was just wondering about Haywire, too! Haywire... what's up??

ML & SD:

If I recall correctly, haywire wrote she is going away to visit from Thursday through Today.
I believe that is the reason for her Not posting.

Hopefully she will be in renewed sprits when she returns.

In addition, she said her H was going away with OW tomorrow.
So I'm sure once she returns she'll be here and need a lot of encouragement and support.

Haywire, we ARE all thinking of you. Hope your visit went well and it gave you the time and opportunity to get some perspective!

Thanks for the update, toprope. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks for thinking of me... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

ML you really pegged my H. Your insight is amazing. I wish I'd talked to you 20 years ago! SD and Top Rope, your advice has helped SO much. I'm going to re-read it all because I know there are things you both wrote that didn't register before.

Probably seems strange but I went to stay with WH's family for a few days -- MIL, FIL, SIL & her family. After so many years, they're like my family too. And of course DD truly is family to them.

So we talked and ate and talked and drank wine and talked some more and I'm more convinced than ever that divorce is the only right choice. They are all in agreement too. Said that they'll support any decision I make but they think it's time to end the marriage. The more I hear, the more I realize that he's been unfaithful since very early in our relationship. And in addition to the infidelity I am done with the poor treatment. SIL is already on the hunt for my Mr. Right <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

You know how WS's treat their spouses badly and try to convince themselves that the BS is no good, to justify the infidelity? I think my H has been doing that throughout the years we've been together. So I never noticed a change...just accepted it as his moody, distant, sometimes angry personality. And there were times that he was fairly nice and charming, which kept me from giving up. Now I realize I never knew him. I loved the person I thought he was and that person never existed.

Yesterday SIL told me that a few years ago DD confided to her that she thought her father was having an affair and she thought I might be aware of it, just accepting it. It was hard for her to respect either of her parents. I called DD to ask her if that was true and it was. I reassured her that I was NOT aware, and now that I am, I won't accept it. She's still bearing quite a bit of his anger but she seems so much more confident, open and relaxed since all this surfaced.

So my next step is preparing for divorce. I didn't tell him tonight -- I can use the 2 weeks he'll be away to prepare. And I didn't think it would be a good way to send him off to a show where he'll be working with both DD and OW.

There's a small hope that he's so rebellious and anti anything conventional that he might just up and leave....he keeps saying that's what he'll do, as if he thinks it's a threat, thinks that I want him to stay. If he only knew what a relief that would be.

My MD perscribed Effexor XR and it seems fine. I'm pretty calm. Don't know how much of it is the AD and how much is just coming to accept the hard reality. I'm trying to stay focused on how much better life can be for both DD and me once we get through this.

Now that I know divorce is in the future, should I be posting on the D forum or can I still get help here in GQII? You've all been so helpful and I know the road is going to get even rougher.

haywire, I am glad you are ok. You sound calmer than you ever have since you have been here. Glad you had a nice weekend.

I am off to bed and can't talk much, but of course you can continue to post here. This is where you are most comfortable and this is where people know and care about you.

haywire

Glad to have you back. You sound amazingly calm, and that's a good thing.

Wow, what a convoluted mess. I think there should be ads, much like the ones that say "friends don't let friends drive drunk", rather that say, "friends don't let friends get deceived by affairs". Seems like if everyone who knew of someone close to them who was having an affair, would blast it like Gabriel's trumpet, at least to the BS, it would be a good thing.

It sounds like your thoughts are coming together on a course of action. I am a huge fan of MB and the philosophy of trying to rebuild a marriage, especially since my own efforts seem to be well rewarded right now, but, you don't even know how long this has been going on. And if it's as long term as it might have been, wowzers! I can't imagine that.

Two things I want to say at this time. Continue to read materials that will help you better understand affairs and how to work through them, and work on healing yourself. That will be your most important mission right now. Get your feet back on the ground, and decide what you want, and go for it! I don't think anyone could fault you for that.

The second thing is this.... I don't know why, but I just have this feeling your WH may just come back crawling on his hands and knees. I could be way off base here, but the reality of all this has got to have put at least a dent in his foggy skull. And I just have this feeling I can't shake that he's going to have a "full wake-up call, and realize what he's giving up.

It doesn't matter whether I'm right or wrong on this issue, and I only mention it, so you can think of how to handle it if it does. You may learn more of whats going on, in the next few weeks with WH, OW and DD all going on the same trip. It may well be, WH will open up to DD on this trip and she may bring you some first hand information. Who knows?

You sound very strong and very together! You are to be commended for that. This has been a few very tough weeks for you.

We missed you, and are glad to have you back. Keep posting and letting us know how you are doing.

Best wishes

SD

Haywire, glad you are having this time of calm. Please keep posting, and whatever your choice of action we'll be here for you. Wishing you the best! CV

Hi Haywire

Just wanted to say hello and welcome back. Sounds like a supportive trip to th IL's. I know your decision to D is not what MBers recommend, but you are the one who really knows what you need to do. I am also on the brink of divorce due to Fogman's crappy behavior, so I know how you feel about wanting it all to just stop.

I occasionally read the Divorce boards. There is a whole lotta pain over there, too. Divorce is a huge step, especially for people with small children. Lurk there for awhile, but you're well-loved here on GQII.

You sound great. Wonder how the "trip" is going??

Sorry I didn't reply until now. I didn't know what to say. I'm glad he's away. Home is peaceful.

But I feel abandoned. Why do I care that he's there with OW and doesn't want contact with me? Why do I care?

I want to know why he threw me away. Many years ago. Why did his love turn to hate? I didn't nag, b**ch or cling. He had all the freedom he wanted. His WH friends call me "a peach". I love football, love to hear his golf stories. Worked my way up the ladder to a good job and pay almost all the household bills. Never threw the old A in his face. What more did he want? A simple mind in a young body that he "has more in common with"? Why do I care?

I've now seen his cell phone statements and know how obsessively often he called her. Even on our anniversary. It hurts. I feel stupid.

Sorry for the rant. I just want to get past caring and this feeling of abandonment.

<small>[ August 07, 2004, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: haywire ]</small>

haywire, who knows why he did it. You must be in shock to realize that many years of your marriage were not what they seemed. I know that with me, it was like the kaliedoscope shifted and my past "looked" so different once most of the facts fell into place upon discovery. You have YEARS of false perceptions to deal with.

Are you still seeing your counselor? Has she helped you any? Have you made any decisions yet on how you might proceed?

Melody, yes, so many years of misperception. I thought he loved me even though he didn't show it often. Never doubted it. I don't think I've ever been so wrong.

I saw the IC again last Tuesday but now she's away on vacation for a few weeks. I think she's helping but there's so much damage to repair that with just 2 visits we've barely scratched the surface, understandably. At this point she's trying to help me prepare for divorce in a practical way.

I plan on telling him I want a divorce when he returns in a little over a week. I'll tell him that if we can agree on the property distribution it will save many dollars that would otherwise go to the lawyers.

I met with a very good divorce attorney but the retainer is expensive and I'm not sure how I'll pay for it. I'd planned to take a loan from my savings account at work, but found out that I can only do that if the spouse signs off on it! I don't want to do that.

The IC suggested possibly using a mediator. I'm not sure if that's a good idea. Any suggestions?

haywire,

Glad to see you back.  Sometimes get worried when people are not posting. (mind works in funny ways you know).

Anyway, to answer your last question first.

Mediation can be a way to save a lot of $$money$$ in a divorce.
Its the way I would want to go.
There are many advantages besides money as well. It sure leaves things on a more amicable level. (You always will have some connection with H  cause of your DD).
It also lets you both have a better chance of a win/ win.
Unfortunately, Most couples coming out of court feel like they both lost.

Also remember that mediation is NOT binding. So if you don't get the results you want from it, you can always switch back over to a lawyer and the courts later (and all you'll be out is the extra money and time).

However, keep in mind its NOT for everyone.
Here's a quick "mediation-elimination" quiz. Should you answer NO to any of the following, then mediation is most likely NOT for you:

1). Do you BOTH want this divorce? (If one doesn't, then this process has no chance).
2). Do you KNOW what ALL the assets and debts are?
3). Are you & hubby   presently communicating? (If your not, then this is not the place to attempt to start. Also, if one of you has extreme feelings of anger or hurt, mediation probably won't work).
4). Can you  BOTH be flexible if need be?

And your answer is???
**************************************************
Now to your questions about your feelings.
Bear with me here. In my head I know the message I want to convey to you, but I'm having trouble getting it out (in a way that makes sense) with the written word.
But I'll give it a try. (Just seem to only be getting "part" of what I want to say out....hope this is enough and you can  "get" it.)

Sad to say that this is just a part of this mess that your going to have to work through.(your emotions)
Some of it is just Time......plain and simple.
It takes time to work through the stages ... shock, denial, ANGER, anguish, depression/fear...and eventually acceptance. Oh yea, bargaining (with yourself or him) will be thrown in there somewhere as well.

However, you can stall or impede your own progress through this by not embracing these emotions. For example, if you don't deal with your Anger (by acknowledging it to yourself and then also letting him and others KNOW that by Gosh you are angry)   you can get stuck at this stage.
In addition,  you must  let yourself feel you have the  RIGHT to be Angry.
Too many people don't want to truly acknowledge these powerful, yet negative emotions.
Instead, They hide them, push them down, or flat out pretend they aren't there (or at the least hide how much they are affected by them).

Don't do this.
All this will do is leave you "stuck" at one stage and not let you progress to the healing stages.
Unfortunately, these less then pleasant stages are necessary for you too heal.
They must be brought out and not buried. Burying the pain will only leave you stuck in this awful place indefinitely (perhaps for the rest of your life). And you'll stay there up and until you DEAL with it.

I know you have your mind made up. So I'll respect your decisions IF you are determined to go through with your D.

However, IMO you are still too early to be using your LAST option first. (A Divorce).
Believe me even if you do get a "quickie" divorce......that will do nothing to help you deal with all this emotional pain and baggage you have to deal with.

In simple terms, you ARE going to have to deal with these issues  either with your H or by yourself. Deal with it now with him, or deal with it later on your own.
But make no mistake you will be dealing with it....ALL!

Also, please don't trick yourself in thinking it will be somehow easier to handle it by yourself. Its not any easier.....only different.

IMO its actually harder.  WHY?
Because if your going through this together...there is an actual goal your trying to reach. (To reconcile). Just having a "tangible" goal your striving for can keep your energy and focus on the prize.

In addition, Keep in mind that the first goal here is to save yourself. Use him to do just that. If your M is saved in the process......what a bargin....2 for the price of one.

What do I mean by that?
HMMMM, OK  how about this?

If you at least attempt to reconcile....you WILL get many of the questions you have answered. (I don't know about YOU, but getting all of my questions answered was the BIGGEST part of the equation for me healing myself).
Basically, it let me stop "obsessing"  about her  A  24/7. (the obsession factor was my BIGGEST challenge by far).

So if your working on the M and the relationship, you'll get some answers and possibly all of them.
However, how many questions do you think he'll answer if a D is already in progress?
Probably NONE! He has to have a reason to be honest & open. Sad but true.

Believe me these questions you have  will not just go away because you get a D.
NO, you'll still have them......only NOW you won't have a prayer of getting any them answered. Yes, you'll get beyond wondering eventually........but that could be many, many years down the road. ( And I believe some you'll never really get over, and will ALWAYS be "obsessing" over to some extent ).
Who the heck want's to go through that when you don't have to?
Why not take the time to ease your mind NOW, when you've still got the opportunity?

Also, you don' t want the guilt later on of "knowing" you never really even tried to reconcile. That could really eat you up after the fact.

Here's another factor to consider. It may seem kind of mean in a way (but remember we're concerned with YOUR Personal recovery first).
If you are BOTH  working on the M, then the A will have been ended.
Imagine the peace of mind you'll have (as well as the lesser  amount of pain you'll have) if  you know the A is done and over.....should you get a D.
I know I would be able to move on and feel better about the world "knowing" my W and the OM at least were NOT together.
Hey, its selfish....but just one more benefit you can get by working on the M.

Lastly, no one says if you try and it DOESN'T work that you can't get a D at a later time.
However, by that time you'll be actually "READY" (in all aspects) for it.
YOU will have healed "personally" even if the M has not.
Best part is  you won't be dragging all the "baggage" from this failed M with you into the next part of your life.

IMO your not emotionally ready for a D. You are only at the very beginning of discovering his  A.
AT the 2 month mark I was still a Zombie. Definitely NOT in any condition  to be making life altering decisions. Truthfully, I was just not thinking clearly. I was working on pure emotion. Unfortunately, those emotions seemed to fluctuate minute to minute. I was in no way prepared to be making choices like a D.

And yes, We ALL thought about going the D route at this point.
At the time,
It just seems like the less painful way to go. It's really not. It just delays dealing with all the pain, until after the D is final.
Unfortunately, by then you have less ways of dealing and coping with it (because the person with ALL the answers is NOW unavailable to you).

To be fair, I see your H already back tracking. He has changed his story from admitting "nothing" going on to ...yes "something" is going on (even if he blames you).
Point is he is cracking at least slightly. Believe it or not that IS progress.
Why not continue on and at least give this a chance. Do it for yourself....cause that's the person who has the most to gain here.

This could still be salvaged. However, you'll never know if NO attempt is even made. Right?

I'm not going to lie and tell you any of this is easy. Cause its not.
However, being alone and STILL having to deal with all this mess, is IMO no easier on you then attempting to work it out together. And together there is a larger upside.

Bottom line is that you WILL heal yourself while attempting to save your Marriage.
Believe it or not, it will just come about without you even focusing on it.
You will end up stronger, feel more secure in your Final decisions &  not have as much indecision/guilt  due to having your thoughts and emotions better under control.

Cutting and running is not in your best interests (at least at this time). Perhaps later BUT not now!

In any case, just think about it.

YOU may disagree.......... and you know what?    That's OK. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />
It is your life after all.
But as I said, deal with this now or deal with it later.
Why not give YOURSELF the best option for healing that you can?
Be it single or married, YOUR happiness and wellbeing is what I believe we're ALL after.

Till next time.....take care <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Top rope, you've given me a lot to think about!

First -- I don't know the answers to some of the mediation questions you asked. Don't know if he wants a divorce, don't know if there are hidden assets, we're not communicating, I'm very angry and hurt and he's very angry....so mediation probably isn't the answer, at least not right now.

You know, reading your thoughts about not rushing into a D were calming. Maybe you're right. But right now I don't know if he has any wish to stay married. The A might never end. If it does there will probably be another. I guess I can wait until he returns to hear what he says.

Along with all the other painful emotions is humiliation. How much more can I take? My daughter tells me that WH & OW are openly together all day at the show and at restaurants, but they're still lying about the A. It's all about poor innocent OW who's being treated unfairly by the jealous wife and daughter....

I'm rambling, I know! You've got me thinking again...

If I do try to work on the M, do you have any advice about how to communicate with him? Should I phone him while he's away? What should I say the next time we talk?

Hi Haywire,

Just reading your thread brings up such emotions in me. I have an inkling as to how it feels to have loved someone, who has deceived you for so long, the doubt you must feel, and the anger, and the uncertainty of your own feeling.

I attended a 6 week spiritual workshop when I found out my boyfriend was married after 8 months of thinking he was the answer to every prayer I ever had. I still don't know who he is. I feel shaken to the core and the pain is still deep, but I also have peace.

Anyway at the workshop we learned how to use anger to our advantage. It worked for me back then, and now I need to practice it again I think.

This is how it went, you take a pillow and scream into it for as long & as loud as you can. Do this everyday, with your head in the pillow in the middle of the bathtub if you have to, if you are afraid of someone hearing you. I was completely unable to do this at first. I mean I would literally throw up when I tried to scream, and then when I got past that, my throat would lock and nothing would come out. Because everyday when asked by the therapist if I had gotten angry in traffic, or at home I would always so no that I never get angry, she was relentless in making me do this. Anyway it feels so good once you can do this, just to get the anger out and find some release.

We had men in the workshop who had been severely abused as children and they would punch punching bags and imagine the punching bag as the hurt, and terrible pain they had suffered. They would literally punch the bags while crying their eyes out for hours. It was really, really good therapy.

Give it a try okay, because you have alot to be angry about and need a healthy release for it.

And something else to try is hitting a tennis racket on the top of your mattress until you can't hit it anymore. Another good therapy to deal with pent up anger and stress. Good exercise too.

weaver, thanks so much. I'll do that. I need to because every once in awhile I want to throw something, break something, smash something. Screaming into a pillow or hitting the bed might help let it out.

I too have been wondering how you are Haywire.

Only you know what you can and cannot deal with. However your last response to me was that you agreed that you did not have to make any life changing decisions whil in such an emotional state.

please consider that any decision that you make right now may or may not be the correct one, because right now
1/ you are still in a degree of emotional reaction, as previously stated, shock, grief, anger, bargaining, all on a continuim towards acceptance.
2/ you still don't know the facts. Unfortunately you may or may not ever get to them
3/a period of self reflection is not a bad idea. Have you considered your own belifs, your own ideas about love eg romaniic love versus long term committed love, the happily ever after fantasy that many of us carry. How realistic is this?
4/your part in your relationship. Whether or not this relationship continues, a good look at the relationship and our own strengths and weaknesses is not a bad idea so that we are in a better position to grow in some way fromall of this heartache. Might just increase the chance of a better relationship in the future with whomever, even if only with ourself.
5/ leaving a marrriage knowing that you did what you could do to really explore whether or not you could remain in it may help you in the future to know that you left for the right reasons, rather than opting out quickly now and wondering later if you made the right decsion.

There are more things to consider. Given your husband's actions at present (denial, protecting OW rather than supporting you and total lack of honesty) I can understand you completely.

I have already told you how I feel about Plan A n such a long affair. In my case it was the propect of losing this relationship that woke my husband up. He had never considered that his relationship with me might end. That is how much I had been taken for granted.

I initially asked my H to leave. I pure and out though that this marriage was over and looking back at the years of betrayal and all of the deceit, felt like the whol marriage was a sham, just some fantasy in my head. I felt like I had been living a lie. I couldn't see how the marriage could possibly recover.

BUT, my husband would not give up on us. He persisted and eventually got me to go to counseling, then I got that great advice I already shared with you. You don't have to decide anything right now. Give yourself time.(I was packing up to take myself and kids to my family home when I got this advice).

Anyway to cut a long story short, eventually my H got through to me and the counseling and this site (when I found it) and the books. And eventually we reconciled and here we are almost three years later. I am happy that we did not divorce now. I love my husband and felt so warm and happy embraced in his arms as I slept last night.

It hasn't all been easy though. The whirlwind of emotions and thoughts that I had to deal with have been hard. But I have grown through dealing with and exploring them.

I did try to be the best me from the word go, but basically told mine that the marriage was over. I do think that in my case that was what saved my marriage. I guess like a plan B (except I had no idea about MB then)

Anyway, think about it. If you are in a divorce mindset, then maybe se how you H reacts. If he still denies, goes with OW etc.. then maybe you are on the right track, bit I would still recommend that you explore what you can of your marriage and your emotions, reactions for your own sake and healing.

If he gets jolted like mine did and comes begging you to reconsider, then you have something more to consider.

Anyway haywire
I am glad to hear that you are hanging in there and whatever your decision, I hope you eventually get tht happiness you deserve
C&S

C&S, thanks for writing to me. As much as I think divorce is right, and everyone around me thinks it's right, it's probably better to wait and try to stabilize before making a life changing decision. This indecision is tough!!! I'm not used to it. Usually a decision feels "right" based on the facts and I go with it. Now nothing feels right.

Did your husband move out and then realize that he wanted to work on your marriage? I think my H too may not realize that our marriage is close to ending. Although he did say that he knows it may be irreparable. Are you suggesting I tell him to move out? Plan B? I bought Dobson's Tough Love book and skimmed it. Need to read it again....

My H has an aversion to counseling. I don't think he's willing to put much effort into saving our marriage. But I guess I can wait a little longer before ending it.

Thanks so much C&S. I see that you've been through a similar hell so you know what I'm going through.

Haywire, I'm not sure what I am saying in tha respect in that I had no idea about Marriage builders when that all happened. I was flying by instinct.

However prior to learning of Hs affair I sure knew that something was bery up with my marriage. Thing in though that whenever I raised it with H he basically told me I was crazy, that love is not like in the movies... etc..

In a lot of ways I was relieved when I discovered his affair. I realised that I had not been crazy and that something was up with it. Years of feeling wrong about myself for wanting more in my marriage were removed fom me. I saw hope in some way where before there was little hope.

Anyway in a lot of ways I had probably been doing a type of Plan A for two years before learning of the affair. We had nearly parted ways two years prior as I had had enough of feeling so excluded in the marriage then. We di a bit of counseling which basically did nothing as the real reasons for the problem were not revealed as H was not being honest.

Anyway I read Dr Phil's relationship rescue. I decided then that I would do my best to improve our relationship on my own. I did all of the self examination etcc, realised what was missing in the marriage, where I was in a blame him rather than fix myself attitude and set about doing what I could about me.

Thing is that despite the affair our relationship improved a lot over those two years. The other thing that probably helped was that his work n other city ended and he moved home in those two years, so he didn't see as much of her. But there was still something up. I felt we had just grown apart from ou time living a part and from all of the things that had happened between us tainting the relationship. Hence my sense of relief in realising that there was an afair. (that is why I think all these WS who think that they are protecting their BS by not telling them about the affir are so wrong. I knew something was up and would rather know than all those years of thinking I was crazy an that I was expecting too much).

Anyway if I had discovered affir prior to those two years of The Dr Phil philosophy that had improved the marriage I would say that there is no way we could have recovered. I don't think either of us would have wanted it. However, I think that the two years were like a Plan A, except that I did not know that that was what I was doing. In fact i remember My MIL saying, but i thought the two of you had been getting on so much better, why are you separating now when we told her we were after Dday prior to her learning of the affair.

My counselor felt that the reason I found the wallet a home and the photos in it was because H in some way wanted to get caught subconsciously. I don't know about that but strange things happen. maybe it was the right time.

So I guess while what I did was like Plan B, that I had probably been plan Aing for a long time before hane, but not knowing it.

To you all I am saying is Keep an open mind. If you think you are getting out of marriage anyway, then you have little to lose by really thinking about things and doing a bit of self examination and work before you do. And if H shows that he does want you and is able to back this up by actions, that it is possoble to recover.

But once again, it is so easy for up from the outside to give you advice. Only you know what you can and cannot do.

Once again hugs to you
C&S