My best GF of 17 years is married for 4 years now. She is 31 and her H 24 years old. Me & hubby are good friends with both of them and has just visiting them this past weekend. Yesterday on our way home, my H told me her H told him that he goes to a strip club with friends now and then for some time now… He told my H how he also paid a specific stripper some money to dance in front of him while doing certain ‘acts’ in front of him. He also told my H how a woman from another strip club, once gave a private strip show for him and a few friends. On a certain occasion a stripper also gave a show to him in a room where only the two of them was present (him and the stripper). I was very shocked after my H told me this because me we know him for a relatively long time now (before he and my friend got married) and he has always seemed like a very nice, conservative guy with good morals who cares very much about her. We know they are happily married. He treats her very well and is very protective of her, although my friend told me once there is some problems on the sexual side of their M (she have a very low libido and also experience pain during sex because of a phsyical problem).

My H said after my friend told him about the strip club his (my H’s) only response was: “Oh, I see” and after that my H changed the topic and they didn’t discuss it again for the rest of the weekend. My H is not a confrontational person and when I asked him why didn’t he tell my friend’s H what he doing is wrong and unfaithful to his W, he just said: “He knows very good what he’s doing is wrong and won’t listen to me”. I think because no touching happened between him and the stripper/strippers, my friend’s H obviously think there is nothing wrong with this kind of entertainment…I don’t know what to think… I just feel so upset and bad for my friend, but I don’t know how to handle this situation. My friend doesn’t have ANY idea about what’s going on and I know if she founds out she will be devastated and very hurt. My H made me promise not to tell anything to her, but I feel guilty by keeping quiet about this… I just feel my friend deserves to know the truth. If I were in her shoes I would expect my best friend NOT to keep information like this a secret from me… But on the other side, do I have a right to interfere? I don’t want to damage our friendship or be responsible for the breakup of their M. Maybe I must confront and talk to my friend's H if my H is not willing to do so himself or maybe I must stay out of this altogether and hope & pray the truth will come out without me or my H’s interference. I don’t know what to do. This is a very delicate situation. I will welcome & appreciate any thoughts or suggestions.

Thank you,
Suzet

<small>[ November 04, 2004, 06:25 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

You're in a perverbial "rock and a hard place." Few questions before I respond.

How did this come up in conversation that your H told you? (Could it be that he was giving you this info for a reason?)

How often does your F H go? Is it a daily, weekly, once in a while ocurrence? I personally do not understand the concept of strippers (but that's another discussion!), but have gone a few times. If it is just "once in awhile", IMHO, I do not see the harm. However, it seems to be more than just that, right?

Has your F sought medical attention for her libido (or lack there of) and physical "problem"?

Basically I agree with Lindy. An occasional visit to these places may be harmless. As long as the W knows about it, and it doesn't hurt her. However, if you go to the thread "Strippers, Lies, and Money" you will see that these clubs can be much more than a Naughty place to go on a boys night out. They can become VERY addictive! Espescially to a H whos EN and SF arn't being met at home. Your Friend and her H are on very thin ice. You may need to convince your husband that the health of your friends marriage should take precident over a promiss to conceal dangerous behavior. However, you must convince him. It would be wrong for you to decieve your husband about revieling the secret

You promised your H not to tell. Until he agrees otherwise, you have to keep your mouth shut. Your relationship with your H is much more important than your relationship with your friend.
"Best friends" come and go throughout your lifetime--your H (hopefully) doesn't.

"Sex" is very, very sensitive. The "who, what, when, where, why and how" of marital sex is very complicated and very secretive. If they are having sex problems, you will never, ever know the whole story. There are MCs with years of training and experience that would have trouble with these people. So, to think that you can hop in with both feet and help is pretty unrealistic.

If you want to help, get back on the topic of her sexual problems with her, listen to her, tell her that sex isn't painful and is in fact enjoyable, and encourage her to get professional help.

<small>[ August 02, 2004, 09:43 AM: Message edited by: Jimmy Mac ]</small>

Jimmy's right. I meant to say the same thing, but he said it better. You SHOULD NOT go behind your husbands back and break your promiss to him. That would be LB. But you may wish to talk to him about it, and tell him that your friend's marriage might be in BIG trouble, and think how you both would feel if you could have been able to help but did nothing. I hope your husband can see how important it is for you to talk to your friend about her H dangerous behavior.

However, YOUR Marriage and your Relationship/Trust with H is #1 concern!! You must act, or fail to act together!

Mugs

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mugsy:
As long as the W knows about it</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sooooooo important! Still will hold off on my response. (But M & M are doing pretty good anyway!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

I have heard that some strippers do more than just dance in a private dance, but who knows. It definately is not healthy for him to be going to those places, but at least it isn't regular women that he is flirting with. Her not being sexual may wind up being a big problem in the marriage IMO.

LINY -

How did this come up in conversation that your H told you? (Could it be that he was giving you this info for a reason?)
Hubby told me while we was driving home after our weekend-visit to the friends. He couldn’t tell me earlier because our friends were around most of the time. The reason he told me: Hubby & me always share everything and all our concerns with each other.

How often does your F H go?
We don’t know but guess it’s a few times a month.

However, it seems to be more than just that, right?
Yes, I definitely think so.

Has your F sought medical attention for her libido (or lack there of) and physical "problem"?
Yes, she has tried everything possible…but the problem persist (low libido). About the pain during sex: This weekend she told me she thinks she needs to visit a good specialist again.

Mugsy –

An occasional visit to these places may be harmless. As long as the W knows about it, and it doesn't hurt her.
My GF doesn’t know about this at all. It would indeed hurt her and I know she would NEVER approve this or view it as something harmless.

It would be wrong for you to decieve your husband about revieling the secret.
Yes, I know this and will not do anything without POJA with my H about it first.

Jimmy Mac –

As to your friend, you probably know less than 10% of her story, and probably less than 1% of her H's story. Do you *really* want to know more? E.g., you say, "We know they are happily married." ??? They are having sex problems and the H is secretly going to strip clubs, but they are happily married? News flash: They aren't.
I understand what you’re saying… Except for the sexual problems, they are very affectionate, loving and caring towards each other (anyway, that is what me & hubby observes when we are with them.

Thanks for all the input guys, I’m knocking off from work now but will post & read again tomorrow.

Blessings,
Suzet

Suzet,
I agree that you should honor your H with the secret, however, is his request to remain silent the best thing for your friends M? You both know that the strip club is wrong and is just the beginning of trouble. Was your friend's H looking for affirmation from your H as to that its okay to go see strippers? Why would he even tell? If I were your H, I would go to that man and warn him that you need to tell your best friend of 17 years what is going on.

You may disagree, but there is no room for dishonesty in M. Your friends H is being dishonest. How will you face your friend when she finds out and you could have warned her? You know this has the potential to become an addiction for her H. A porn addiction is hard to break, especially with the internet. How are addictions broken? The light of day.

Maybe you could get the H to go to this site and see the devastating affect of pornography. The book "Every Man's Battle" covers this issue. You are in a tough spot, but this is far from harmless.

Christ's Love
Roman121

Roman, thanks for your reply, I appreciate you input. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I agree that you should honor your H with the secret, however, is his request to remain silent the best thing for your friends M?
Roman, this is exactly why this situation is so difficult for me… I know I must (and I want to) honor my H with this secret, but at the same time I know this is NOT the best thing for my friend’s M and will be very unfair towards her. I appreciate the fact that my H was honest & open towards me and trust me with this information – and this is why I won’t do anything without POJA with my H about it first.

You both know that the strip club is wrong and is just the beginning of trouble.
I agree with you. I view what the friend is doing, as betrayal and adultery towards his W, because those things lead to adulterous thoughts about other woman. (And we all know what the Bible teaches us about "adultery of the heart"). My H shares the same opinion and viewpoint than me regarding this. I’m just afraid if we keep my friend in the dark, things will get worse and eventually lead to physical betrayal…especially since they’re struggling with sexual problems in their M.

Was your friend's H looking for affirmation from your H as to that its okay to go see strippers? Why would he even tell?
I’m not sure… My H said he inform him about it casually – in such a way as if going to strippers/strip-clubs is normal and nothing wrong…as if it is just ‘entertainment’. However, I suspect that the H immediately saw my H felt uneasy and didn’t want to comment, and therefore changed the subject and didn’t talk about it again for the rest of the weekend.

You may disagree, but there is no room for dishonesty in M. Your friends H is being dishonest.
I agree with you 100%, also regarding total Honesty and Openness in M.

If I were your H, I would go to that man and warn him that you need to tell your best friend of 17 years what is going on.
I feel the same way… It bothers me somewhat that my H didn’t told him immediately that what he is doing is wrong and dishonest & deceptive to his W… But I understand my H is not a confrontational person and a conflict avoider. And also, since he and the H are good friends, my H probably didn’t know how to react at the moment. However, yesterday evening I’ve talked to my H about this and he agreed that it will probably be the best to talk to the H; inform him that I also know about it and that he must stop his behavior, otherwise we need to tell his W. But I feel even if my H talk to him and warn him to stop, he will continue to do it anyway. How will we know he have stop his behavior? And even if he stop what he is doing, I feel my friend STILL needs to know about it.

How will you face your friend when she finds out and you could have warned her?
Exactly what I have asked myself and why I feel so strong about this… I wish things could get out in the open without our interference, but at the same time I know if we keep silent until the truth revealed itself in another way, the damage done will probably be too big for them to recover from... Like you've said, porn is addictive and I’m afraid things may lead to physical betrayal eventually.

Blessings,
Suzet

<small>[ August 03, 2004, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Suzet: Your original post was looking for an answer. Roman did a real nice job of summing it up. My suggestion? Either tell your H this has to be discussed with his F--use all of the arguments above--or (and I'm not sure if your H F knows that you know) but the two of you corner him and confront him. Beware of the repercussions, however! On the flip side, this could create a strong front/bond between you and H, *if* he really agrees that this strip clubs are, bottom line, bad news.

Good luck--let us know the outcome!

LINY, thanks for your response! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

(and I'm not sure if your H F knows that you know)
No, he doesn’t know that I know... I think he needs to know since it will probably make him realize that me & hubby doesn’t keep secrets from each another and view his behavior in a very serious light.

I’m looking for threads about porn/strippers/strip-club addictions and the consequences of such behavior etc. Mugsy mentioned a thread ”Strippers, Lies, and Money". Can someone please give me the link to that thread (and any other useful threads)? I will appreciate it.

Yesterday it was my GF’s birthday and while I was talking to her on the phone, I could hear something is wrong. She sound very ‘down’. I asked her what’s wrong and she just said she's tired and feels very teary & depressed, but don’t know why. I know she have some physical problems (not of serious nature) which cause her to often get tired or get headaches. When this happen, her mood gets influenced very easily. But in spite of this, I also wonder if she can maybe sense something is wrong with her husband…the BS's ‘six sense’ which is often talk about here… Normally she is a very lively & happy person, although she gets mood fluctuations very easily. I also know she is an extremely sensitive person and her feelings gets hurt very, very quickly. She struggles with some self-esteem and self-confidence problems and I’m afraid she won’t emotionally be able to handle this news about her H’s visits to the strippers/strip-clubs... She already feels bad about the sexual problems she struggling with in her M and I’m just afraid if we do the right & honest thing by confronting her H and force him to tell her, that she will be destroyed and devastated by the news. Me & hubby discussed this yesterday and decided to talk to him (my H will talk to him) and request him to tell her, but after I’ve talked to my friend on the phone yesterday, we’ve realized how delicate this situation in fact is and we don’t want to handle this the wrong way and be the cause of MORE problems.

Can anyone relate to how I’m feeling and what a difficult situation this is? Am I overly protective of my friend? Do I think about her & this situation the wrong way? I just don’t want her to get hurt but, at the same time I realize whether she knows about it or not, she WILL get hurt eventually. Any extra words of wisdom & suggestions will be appreciated please.

Thank you,
Suzet

<small>[ August 04, 2004, 02:55 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Bump

Suzet,
As much as I hate to admit it, men are extremely visual. I admit I struggle often with "looking around". I know that I am responsible for my eyes and where they look. I love my W and do not want anyone else. We are told its okay to look, well that is a big fat lie. Its not okay. When I look at another woman and allow it to go past an observation, I dishonor my W and my God.

Going to strip clubs is a result of an addiction to looking lustfully at other women. In other words, I would bet that your friends H has been leading up to this over time. It usually starts at a younger age and grows over time. Marriage is not a cure for this habit and it will continue to get worse. If a man lacks the self control to pull away, he should seek an accountability partner to keep himself pure.

I think some men may say its impossible to not look and I agree to a point. It may be impossible to look the first time, but it is possible to not look a second, third and forth time. This man is using the excuse of thier sexual problems to feel its okay to watch strippers. That sounds like affair logic to me. In reality, He is actually making his marital situation worse by going to strip bars.

I really think your H may want to take an approach like the bible uses for restoration. Go to the H and try to reason with him that what he is doing in secret from his W is wrong. He may even consider offering to be an accountability partner for him. If he continues to carry on the addiction, your H may need to bring in some other "witnesses" to talk to him. If that fails, go to the W and let her know.

I guess for you and your H, that would mean investing some time in building your relationship with your friend's H. Remember, this addiction controls your friend's H. He is past the point of self-control. It will take time and persistance to get him to break it. Since he confided in your H, the light of day is already shed on him and his addiction.

Like any addiction, he will do anything to rationalize it and continue it until he decides to stop it. If he continues unabated, he will spiral down and eventually crash the M.

Christ's Love,
Roman121

<small>[ August 04, 2004, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: Roman121 ]</small>

Suzet -- Here's the link to the Stripper/Lies/Money thread:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=29;t=004515;p=1#000014

Suzet, Roman 121 is so right! Read the other link & especially Rickster 9 & my comments. My H started (with other women) by looking, then staring, then flirting, then buying drinks, then dancing... over the years. Then 2 years ago, my H started going to strip clubs, as we are in a city filled with them & he said he could not resist (even some of the posts here from men indicate that they are "drawn" to strip clubs!). Then one stripper tried to steal him away from our M - EA - H gave her tons of money & time, all stolen from me and our M! He is an alcoholic and is now severly depressed, because he cannot go to the clubs, drink, porn, etc. It's much more than a slippery slope, those clubs are M busters. Do what you can to help your friends, direct them here & to M coaching.

Roman,

Thanks for your post. I think we as woman don’t always understand or realize how visually men really are…and how this can become a problem if a man doesn’t guard and be careful with his thoughts & actions and keep it under control.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Roman123:
<strong>If a man lacks the self control to pull away, he should seek an accountability partner to keep himself pure.

I really think your H may want to take an approach like the bible uses for restoration. Go to the H and try to reason with him that what he is doing in secret from his W is wrong. He may even consider offering to be an accountability partner for him. If he continues to carry on the addiction, your H may need to bring in some other "witnesses" to talk to him. If that fails, go to the W and let her know.

I guess for you and your H, that would mean investing some time in building your relationship with your friend's H. Remember, this addiction controls your friend's H. He is past the point of self-control. It will take time and persistence to get him to break it. Since he confided in your H, the light of day is already shed on him and his addiction.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks Roman. You are right and this will probably be the best (and Christ like) way to approach and handle this situation… I’m sure my H will be willing to do this and approach the H in a way that will build trust and openness between them. From my side, I can help by talking to my GF and urge her to get help again for her sexual problems.

Lucks –

Thanks for the link! I think it might also be a good idea to print out this and related articles & info and give it to the H to read.

Jannie –

Thanks for your post as well! I have read your responses to the link and it must be very difficult to live with a spouse who is addicted to those things. But I'm glad your H is trying to get pass those addictions. I’m sure with your love & support he will get pass the withdrawal and build a stronger M with you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hubby & me care very much about our friends and we don’t want to see their M break up... I felt VERY angry after my H told me about the H’s behavior, but at the same time I know my friend’s H is certainly not a bad person. He is still very young and most probably needs the help, guidance and support of an accountability partner. And of course my friend needs to work on her sexual problems too.

Thanks again guys! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Blessings,
Suzet

<small>[ August 05, 2004, 07:43 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Suzet, maybe your friend can benefit from a educational TV program called the Sunday Night Sex Program, Talk Sex with Sue (also a website) on Oxygen channel - very informative for both spouses - also help from her doctor, of course. But to tell you the truth, it's usually more than a sexual thing - you are right, men are very visual, but it can turn into an obsession, bad habit, addiction...to go to these clubs, where the men are treated so special, not for themselves, but for their money - and the men don't care, as long as the women are paying attention to them! I still don't understand it yet, but I wish your friend well.

<small>[ August 06, 2004, 02:18 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>