An update:

I guess my prayers are working.

Husband called me just now, and was full of fog talk.It is very late here, and he phoned me, he said it was so that I could get some things off my chest.


Saying he doens't wanttot be responsibel for other peoples happiness. Taht he feels so guilty etc.

I told him that I love him and I am willing to make a fresh start. And that when he is done with the OW he will be welcome to call me .

He went on a bit .I guess he didn't hear me. He eventually hung up.

I called him back and said that I will not be her leftovers. I asked him if he kows what she said to me, adn he said he asked her but he didn't know both sides.

so I told him .

I said that she had said how she felt bad about our daughter and how she has been pushing him to visit her and that she doenst' mond if he see me adn sleeps with me etc.

I told him that I cn'at conveniently make myself and our daaughter disappear so tha he wont' feel guilty.

I said that I know he would never hurt our daughter by bringing her to ow's house (like she had suggested to him).

He insisted that he doesn't care about her kids. He said she is just someone to play cards with and f***.

I said its a good thing our daughter wasn't with me when I went there because thats not how it would have looked to her.
(Her kids were there staying at his place).

He said tis my fault for telling her that daddy will be home at 4 all these years, and when he didn't show up she would be disappointed, that its my fault she was hurt etc.

I sadi whre have you been for the past two years- I never tell her that she will see you or when! In fact I go out of my way to make sure that she doesn't know what is going on.

he said he would make more of an effort adn I said not to bother- that if it is just to make him and ow not feel guilty, or becasue ow tells him to , not to bother.

He more or less said that he is his own boss, he doesn't take orders from her.

He said some crap about moving to BC, there will be no more ow then.

I said fine.


Like I said , the prayers are working.
He is getting very nervous.

I think she probably told him to call me to let me blow off steam or whatever.

I am going to plan B now.

I will write him the letter and email it I guess.

I am not letting him call so that he can provoke me into this kind of crap anymore. He just does it to justify his actions.

But he can't live with his conscience, no matter what he tries to put on me.

I can't take anymore of this tonight.

I am going to pray for him, leave him with God and go to bed with a sleeping pill.

This is too messed up for me right now.

Someone pray for us, please.

God bless,

Shul

He went on a bit .I guess he didn't hear me. He eventually hung up.
This is one reason you write it down. Don’t expect him to remember what you said. Your tone of voice can make him hear it differently that how you meant. There is NO mistaking exactly what you want.

I am going to plan B now.
Okay.

I will write him the letter and email it I guess.
Please (pretty please?) write the letter & post it here B E F O R E you send it.
Also, it should be handwritten and mailed or handed to him. It is more personal and he can simply delete an email.

Our conversation last night was insanity.

I have written him this letter, but I don't know if I will send it.

H, H,

I know that you do care very much for me and D.

But your actions are not lining up with your words.

You say you love us and want to be a family and I want that too.

I love you and I want to be with you.

I have done things that have hurt you over the years, and I disappointed you. I know that i have contributed in some ways to the problems we have , and I have been working on making changes in myelf.

I know that I haven't supported you as much as I could have . I am willling to pull my weight now. I have made disrespectful judgements and not listened, criticised, I haven't met your sexual needs in the way that you needed me to.

But I have been working on those things in the past while.

I know that you can't handle the full burden of supporting a family. I am sorry for putting that on you. It should be a shared responsibility.

But I have been working very hard to support myself and D, and I haven't asked you for much.

I have made lots of changes H.


I guess you haven't noticed, because you haven't been around much in the past three years.

You have done things that have hurt me too.

You don't have a monopoly on sin.

I figure we are even.

We have both made mistakes H. We are both human.

I have see you at your worst and I still love you. That will not change H.

You said that you don't want to be responsible for other peoples happiness, but I can't conveniently make myself and D disappear so that you won't have to feel guilty.

Running away will not solve your guilt. Time will not fix it. Like it or not , what you do affects other people.

We are joined together by God and the only thing that will end that is death.

I need you , I miss you, and I am willing to make a fresh start with you.

I am not willing to go back to the way things were between us before- there is no point. But I am willing to forgive and forget and put the past behind us, and start over with a clean slate.


I am offering you my love, my support, my faithfulness, to honor you, and meet your needs, to be a partner, to be at your side.

And I want a man who will love and honor and respect me, cherish me, be honest and faithful to me also. There needs to be honesty and commitment and faithfulness. No more lies or hiding or cheating.

Who will protect me and D, and be a father to her.

I want a strong man,who I can depend on for guidance in things, who I can walk beside.

I see a good future for us H.

You have so many gifts and talents and strengths .

It is what I love and respect about you.

But you are wasting precious time.

You are responsible for your actions,and for some of our problems. no matter how much you would like to blame me for everything.

You need to get right with God, H.

I know that you will. Why do you think you are so unhappy?

Its because you are doing things that are conflicting with your own sense of righteousness.You know that what you are doing is wrong, and you won't have peace about it until you stop.

Take a look at the past H. You had a home , a family, a wife who loved you and a child who adored you.

You didn't want that. You wanted freedom, to live like a single person with no responsibilities.

You wanted freedom .

Well now you have it. You have your van, money, a relationship with no love or commitements that you can walk away from anytime and feel nothing. You are totally free.You can go wherever you like and do whatever you want.

So why aren't you happy?

It is your own conscienc that is bothering you because you know that what you are doing is wrong.

I am not forcing you to come here or call or see us. I haven't made any demands on you. I have only called you a handful of times over the past year.

I love you and I need you, and D loves you and needs you and misses you, but I can't force you to love me, and I haven't tried to manipulate you in any way. It is your own conscience that is making you feel convicted.

I haven't condemned you. I have forgiven you, the same as I have needed forgiveness.

Like I said you don't have a monopoly on sin.

Many of the things you are doing, I did.

I have needs too H. I know how much it hurts when those needs aren't met. This past year has not been easy for me, wanting you and knowing you are with someone else, wanting to give you love, and knowing you are giving your time and energy to someone else.


I have offered you my love, given it to you freely, and I haven't asked for anything in return.

Yes, I am hurt, but it is you who are hurting your self mostly. You are missing out on the only good things in your life H..Every day that we are apart, you are cheating yourself of the good things that have been given to you.


You are not this person H. You are capable of being a better man than the way you are living right now.

You can turn around at anytime, and stop what you are doing and make a fresh start.

I tried to show you that it is safe for you to open up to me H. I have welcomed you and loved you, knowing full well that you were with someone else, no matter how much it hurt me.

And I could probably go on doing that, but what is the point. As long as you are lying and hiding ther can't be any real intimacy between us. And the sex might be fun, but it is pretty empty without the trust and commitment that goes with it.

I think you would feel the same if I was spending half my time with another man,giving my body to him, and my friendship, and my time, and then dropped by on my way home from being with him.


You are sharing the things with someone else that you are supposed to share with me.
How am I supposed to listen to you and love you when you won't even talk to me about your life? All you are giving me is scraps.


I want you , but I won't be someone elses leftovers.

I know there are other things in your life that you need to deal with, and I think those are between you and God.

I told you that I am willing to make a fresh start with you H.

But we won't get very far while you are lying to me, and hiding; until you are free of her.

It is up to you if you want to see D. She wants to see you.




I will have to do some praying.

He is seriously nessed up. I feel we are too messed up for MB, actually.

But I welcome any thoughts.

Shul

It's too long, Shul. It tries to address issues that cannot be dealt with outside recovery, I think. Want to see the prototype letter from Surviving an Affair? Or do you have it? There are some beautiful things in there. I'd like to parse it more when I'm not at work.

Your pain needs to be put more simply. "Your affair hurts me too much, and so I can't be with you while it continues." End of story.

GC

The Plan B letter shoudl be like this. Generally not more than one page side & handwritten.

1 I love you.
2 I apologize for the past. I'm learning new relationship stuff.
3 You affair hurts me. Because of this, I will end all contact until your affair is over.
4 You can see the children by contacting mr. x.
5 We can work it out and I'll wait for that chance.
6 I love you.

Double post.

<small>[ August 04, 2004, 10:19 AM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

shul...

you are so far into just justifying and rationalizing this guys behavior...

it's like you re-write it yourself...so that it becomes tolerable....
to you....

the only thing that you should be focused on is the FACT that this guy HAS abandoned his young daughter...

every interaction where you profess love and intimacy with him is a slap in the face to your daughter...

that until he does right by the children..
you should not even be contemplating a relationship with him...till he proves himself in the child arena to be consistant and compassionate to the child....

all this other fluff..
you know you he loves his daughter...well if that's how he shows his love for her...by going months without seeing or talking to her...
who needs him...

I'm sorry but I can not let go the importance of the damage this does to children..
and I find your excusing and acceptance of contact with you while he still dismisses his own daughter very frustrating....

put your daughter and her needs first...
work only with your husband to facitilate consistant, productive contact between them...and once he established constancy in that arena....
then see if has grown at all on the maturity meter

you write him a plan b letter now... and he won't see your daughter for months..
he will blame you for that fact..
.and you will have no control over when he does....
and who he exposes her to....

I can not stand the victim status you apply to him in the face of his actions...

Shul...
do right by your child first first first....


ARK..............

Thank you Chris,

He saaid last night , and I agree, that the ow is jsut a small part of our problems.

Even if he dumped her today , it wouldn't get to the root of things.


But until he does I don't see how we can even begin to address those other things.

And I don't know if we can anyway.

I think this is a matter between him and God.

He is coming here tonight to fix something.

I guess its still plan A for now.

I wil hold off a bit longer on plan B.

At least I have made it clear now that what he is doing is wrong and huritng himself and us.


I was trying to give things time , esp. for him adn our daughter to build a relationship agian after he didn't see her for so long, adn it was getting better. That is one of the areas that bothers him alot- he was telling himself that sh was better off without him. Copping out.

But after I talked to OW I thought that he was only coming here to alleviate his own guilt.

Mabye that was true partly, but he was starting to want to be with us more.

I guess I will back off a bit, be nice, but not over do it.

He has to see that we can be together in a new way, thats what I was trying for in plan A, but I know we can only go so far while he is still with her.

He was very clear that he has no feelings for her. So what is stopping him from ending it?

He was starting to want to be here with me , more than with her, but he was still scared, and stuck in the past, all the baggage.

I will have to keep walking on eggs.

I can plan A until the cows come home, love him expecting nothing in return, but we can't have a marriage while he is with her.

I had been trying to look at this as though he is a guy I met and was dating. It made it easy to be with him, to plan A.

Back to square one I guess.

Ark is of course speaking the truth.

Your DD is at risk for having problems in her own relationships with men as an adult.

Your WH is terribly negligent as a father, and has only himself to blame.

Love must be tough, Shul. Trying to understand why he's screwing up and trying to be sympathetic is good, but don't let it excuse him.

GC

Shul, be a lighthouse tonight. Be glad to see him. Look good. Try not to make it solemn or awkward. Be cool and sweet and clever, and please oh please avoid R talk. I know you can.

GC

Ark,

yes, you are right.

I will concentrate on that aspect of things.

He has hurt her so much by abandoning her, but its true that if I plan B he will take that as a way to blame me and feel sorry for himself.

He was starting to ask about her the past few weeks before our recent blow out.

He was starting to involve himself more in her life.
I think he was starting to see how much he is missing.

I didn't suggest it, or say anything about his lack in this area, all I said is that she misses him- but he said last night that he will make more of an effort. (I thought to myself if it is an effort..don't bother!)

But I don't think that is what he meant.

He is running out of ways to blame others for his own crap. I have never stopped him from seeing her, and I haven't insisted or put pressure on him. I have invited a couple of times.

While he was staying with ow it was way toomessd up for him to see D, but now he has no excuse.

I am still livid that he allowed her kids to be there at his place.

He will be thinking about that.

Thank God D wasn't with me whe I showed up there. I said that to him last night, and it went home to him.

He has come very close to doing irreversible harm to her.

She is used to him being away because of work, so she doesn't feel the rejection as much as she might have .

But he needs to smarten up pronto.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> be a lighthouse tonight. Be glad to see him. Look good. Try not to make it solemn or awkward. Be cool and sweet and clever, and please oh please avoid R talk. I know you can.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I had to call him about the plumbing, so I said to him,

"can we call a truce for a minute?"

He said, "sure, whats up?"

So I told him about my problem (I have been in the basment all morning trying to install a sump pumpm, and I was just about in tears), and he said he will be out tonight.

I hav called in reinforcements to help with work b/c I am overwhelmed, anad I am going to do my best to be fresh and calm and serene, and gentle.

Part of his attraction to ow was his 'knight in shinng armour' bit. Well I will let him know that he is my knight in shining armour, come to the rescue.

Admiration is one of his big needs. This is an opportunity and I hope I don't blow it.

My boss might be here, with his mom. They really like H, and all the other guys that have worked for them have been useless at this sort of thing.

Also they are believers, very nice people.

I need to create a harmonious environment. I think a truce will help to do that, what do you think?


As for the relationship talk, I guess I will leave it alone. Really it is up to him to bring it up, at this point.

If he does wnat to talk, I have been thinking about what he said last night and how I can respond now.

He talked about feeling guilty. I have been there. I did the same things over and over for years when I was a new believer, and finally got so tired of feeling guilty that I gave up and tried it Gods way.

But the guilt made me angry too, and I wanted to blame someone else. I can understand that.

I figured it out and he will too . this is between him and God.

As for not wanting to be responsible for other peopels happiness, well that is the guilt talking.
But while we live in this wrold we affect other peope for good or for bad.We cant escape that.

I cant make myself disappear or erase tha past. He will either have to deal with it, or live with it.

He said he tried God and it didn't work. Well no one said it would be easy. But its aloit easier than the crap he is putting himself through right now.

He has everything he wanted, freedom from responssibiilty , a van , a job, money, a place. someone to sleep with. He should be happy.

I'm not asking him for anything. I have taken on all the debts, and the care of his child. He has no commitments to meet.

He is free as a bird. (He also doesnt have any part of his childs life. He is missing out on riasing her. He doesnt have anyone to care if he is alive or dead. He doesn't have anyone there to greeet him when he gets home from work. He is alone. the woman in his life does't give a darn aobut him. She is only interested in what she can get from him. Using him. If he dropped dead tomorrow who would care.)

He can fix all this veyr easily. Have his famly back, a future full of love and joy. All he has to do is end the A and make peace with God, ask for forgiveness, and start to spend time with us.

I am not asking him to move in or support us, or acount for his every minute. I am asking that we start out as friends, but we cna't do that when we can't talk becasue if I am honest he will feel guilty. and is he is honest he will hurt me and he will feel guilty.

I think he will get sick of feeling guilty soon and give up.

Its either that or he will have to live with it. He has tried to drown it out with dope, but its not working anymore.

He can't escape it, and it will only get worse.

When he is with us or when he is away from us, doenst matter. He still feels guilty. Ow tried to make him think it is ok, but he knows better.

Go back to your two line letter... and send it.

Truces won't help.

Making nice won't help.

Feeling guilty won't help.

Plan B will help YOU.

Gray,

I did it. He was here for a short time. I looked my best, (considering when he came I was standing in water up to my ankles in the basement).

I apologised for my angry outburst last night, and he said "I am sorry for mine too".

No relationship talk, but it was a close call!

He toild me I can call him anytime something goes wrong if I need him.

He told me that he is trying to decide with his next check whether to pay for D to fly to another city to see her sister, or use the money towards a better car for me.

I said that is very generous, and asked him why he is doing that. I said he doesn't have to. He said its a trick and there are strings attached: I have to stand on my head and rub my tummy and wink, lol.

I am wondering if this is his way of trying to feel less guilty. I guess I should just be gracious about it.

There was an awwkward moment when he was leaving. I didn't kiss him hello or goodbye as I normally would .I don't know why, but I guess I want him to initiate it.

Oh, I asked him to droop something off near where he lives when he gets back, and he said something about this was one way of me makig sure he wasn't going to visit ow in the other city.

I didnt' even think of that. I replied , "well I guess it prety much guaranteed that you wouldn't be spending the night. He said "No, I guess not". I said " well I wasn't expecting you to but I was hoping you would. The invitation is open." But he said not tonight. I told him thats ok, no problem. I know he has to work .

He is coming here later in the week to install a hot water tank.

It will give me a couple of days to recover from this one.

I as so stressed all day.

But I did figure one thing out. I love him, and there is no reason why I shouldn't be loving to him when he is here and there is an opportunity. I am his wife. Knowing he is with her doesn't change that. That is his problem. My conscience is clear. If he is willing to let me love him , than I will.

I guess what hurts me the most in all of this, (part from concern about his relatioship with D) is that I am frustrated. I have love to give him. The things that I want to do for him, he was letting her do.

I miss out on loving him and he misses out on being loved by me.

Its his loss, right?

He is getting his needs met by both of us, a cakeeater, but he is feeling very guilty about it. Good.

Soooner or later he will be able to let me meet all his needs, and she will be history. I think it is a question of takig time to let him start to trust me.

Anyway, he didn't know it before, but now he does- that I knew what he was doing and I chose to show him love anyway.

I just have to be sure that he understands that it is freely given, not a trick to manipulate him or trap him.

Which it isn't.

I am not doing this to get him back, or get him to move home. Ultimately I am just doing it because I care about him and want to meet his needs.

One of the big problems was that he was LBing because he was hiding his activities. Now he knows that yes it hurts me, but I am still here. and he doesn't have to get angry about it.

I think he needs to learn that I am not his mother or his jail guard. He still had this idea that he had to hide everything. If he is being honest with her, why not be honest with me? Maybe he will stop seeing me as this clingy person who he has to be so careful around.

I should mmention that just before he got here I was praying for guidance and the the Lord once again reminded me of this verse:

Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.

And this one:

This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for] our sins. Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

We love because he first loved us.

And I am to show love to my husband- not judge him or condemn him, that is Gods privilege-I am just supposed to love him.

Anyway that is what the Spirit was telling me to do tonight.

Well done, Shul. You did everything you could. It sounds like a good encounter.

You're on such friendly terms with him. My situation is entirely different. I'm a complete saint when my WW sees me, but it freaks her out so much that she stays as far away as possible. She is very cold and unfriendly until my kindness breaks her armor.

But up it comes again after she leaves.

Has your H talked about getting a D before? He must have, because you seem to have not been too bothered by his mentioning it.

GC

Gray,

(D was for daughter , not for divorce). We have never talked about a divorce. It is a moot point. He isn't supporting us anyway, he won't need to be free to remarry- if he wanted to be with someone he would just live with her commmonlaw.

Yes, I did well.

And I woke up in the night picturing them together and thinking that I don't want him to ever touch me again.

I don't want to be her leftovers.

He says he doesn't care anything for her or her kids but he has spent the past two weekends with her in his bed.

And he doesn't have time for us.

I think I am starting to hate him.
I guess I have some forgiving to do.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She is very cold and unfriendly until my kindness breaks her armor.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, my husband said almost the exact words about us a short while ago. That he tries to be cold and hard hearted but I get to him.

That is the love working.

Shul

Shul,

I replied to you on the Prayer Request forum. Hugs to you!!! {{{{{{{{{{{{{{Shul}}}}}}}}}}}}}}