Shul,

I'm worried about my feelings going out the window without any warning, too. It's all so academic now, the idea of my WW returning, that I'm honestly not sure how I'd feel about it. I still can answer the questions I ask every morning the same way, but we're so detached, it's kind of hard to know.

Maybe you need to plan B him after all. But he's got these emotional problems outside the A that may lead him to respond differently to it than the textbook case. Maybe that's just another excuse I'm giving you for not doing it, but I know it's a concern.

GC

You know, I still love my wayward partner. It's been more than a year since we separated. I am able to speak to her now with kindness, compassion, and all those good things.

And I understand that compassion sometimes says "No, that does not work for me."

And I understand that the risk here, for you Shul, is that you will lose your compassion for your husband. That it has not happened completely yet is a testimonial to your strength and faith.

There are cracks in your compassion. I'm not talking about the "I never want him to touch me again" stuff.

I'm talking about the real risk you run -- each day -- when you have contact with him and are unable to enforce your own boundaries in a conscious way.

Eventually your unconscious and subconscious will take over and protect you in spite of your conscious self. They will be right to do so. However, the unconscious and subconscious are exactly those things. They act without conscious thought. Because of that, they are both powerful and dangerous. They can cause tremendous and unnecessary damage.

Listen to your pain very very carefully Shul. Listen to it and understand that this is NOT a time to be hanging on the cross and suffering. Your pain is, plain and simple, a warning to you. Get out of the situation that is injuring you. If you do not, your body will eventually do it for you.

I am NOT advocating divorce. I am advocating you having the courage and taking the steps necessary to protect yourself.

The first thing they teach in lifesaving classes is that you must, MUST be safe yourself, or you cannot help anyone else. You are not safe right now.

And have you read Tough Love yet? Love is not squishy. It is not weak. It is not a doormat and it does not cave in to pressure, demands, or coercion. There is a huge, huge difference between being "nice" and being "loving."

My 19 month old daughter loves to climb on tables. If I were "nice" to her, I'd let her. But I love her -- so when she climbs on the tables, she gets down and she gets in trouble.

Your husband is climbing on things that are a lot higher and more dangerous than my dining room table. And he's an adult, which means you cannot force him to come down. He has free will and must choose that path for himself.

The question is, what are you going to do to protect yourself? Because he's not only endangering himself, he's endangering you, too.

Just J,

Yes, I agree that I need to be protected from unneccesary emotional pain.

I think I caused alot of this myself by snooping, and insisting on knowing what was going on.

I knew that it was a bad idea.I just get hurt and then it is so much harder to bear all this.
I think over the past year God has been trying to tell me to leave it alone. He has been trying to protect me.


So much of my pain would have been avoided if I had just not looked.

The dilemna is this for me: In order to show him love I risk getting hurt and rejected. It is a risk I am still willing to take.

When I was in the dark, in terms of his activities with ow, I took the things he said at face value. I believed him. Now after speaking with ow, I am second guessing everything he says-I should not have talked to her.

I will have to choose to believe him and not let her influence my thoughts or attitude.

He denies that the reason he comes here is because she encourages him to.

It is not for me to make him climb off the table. I see that as Gods department.

It may be that he has to experience natural consequences, such as falling off the table, but I see that as Gods area; to discipline him.

I keep thinking of how my cell phone disappeared the other day, just as I was praying about whether to text my H.

I think I have to be very sure of these things right now- when to call, what to say, what not to say.

I am thinking that I have chosen this cross, but there were also times when Jesus withdrew himself, escaped through crowds unseen.

He knew when it was time to disappear, that it was not time yet.

Maybe I have been going ahead of God.

I am going to back off.

He is coming here tonight or tomorrow. I really need to hear from God today on how to handle this.

It might be better if I didn't have him coming here to do this maintenance stuff, but I saw it is an opportunity to show him love.

Maybe that was a mistake. It might be better if I am not here when he comes.

I will pray about it.
One of my mistakes has been that I lay my marriage on the altar, and then I take it down again. I have to learn to leave this with God and trust him to know how to work it out.


Just J, thankyou for replying. It helps me so much to get a perspective on things. It helps me so much to talk about it. I think I would crack up if it were not for this place and all those who pray for me.

My arms get tired, you know?

Shul, you're confusing a couple of things out of your desire to avoid pain.

You HAD to know the truth. That's what this is really all about -- the question of whether your husband is able and willing to be radically honest with you, and whether he is able and willing to truly take your feelings into account.

You know the answer to that now: The answer, in this time and place, is no. Most certainly and emphatically no, in fact.

Your desire to not know is completely understandable. The truth has not yet made you free, because you haven't let it. Now you have choices and knowledge that you didn't have before. Like Eve, you're regretting that whole Tree of Knowledge deal.

But you can't take it back, nor should you desire to. You have the opportunity, as with all knowledge, to learn wisdom and to gain strength from accepting what you know.

Accepting does NOT mean not doing anything about it. It means, "Huh. Here I am, here's what's going on -- and here's what I'm going to do about it."

shul...

I can not get past the areas in your postings where you just continue to deny and rationalize the actions of your husbands....

I am very concerned about you...and believe that you are in as much fog as some wayward spouses in your thinking and logic....

I am gravely concerned that your husband has for years had alcohol issues....(severe enough for SEVERAL DUI's and lost of drivers licensure)
your recent alluding to other things used as well.......

and the using issue is important...but so are the strong willed character traits of abusers to use....their ability to escape and manipulate...and believe me when I say that I say that without malace....addiction is a horrible thing with many facets that are the nature of the beast...
but one thing that often occurs in my opinion is the sober spouses...
excusing
and
denial of such behaviors....

you can't plan a an abuser...
it doesn't work...

your words frighten me at times...
you talk again and again of love with a man whose actions are not lovable...
and I fear your need to connect puts you in a position where you give warm fuzzies and ego building encounters that totally deny the reality of some of his actions....
in a sense excuse and reward..

plan a about giving, is also about clear clear boundaries....

your post on how your whole husbands affair was explained because all he was doing was using the OW to get vehicle...and once the vehicle obtained she would be dropped and abandoned...
was to me just another stab at rationalizing...
and look at the reality of where we are today...

and even more important...can a person who would use people the OW AND put his family in pain...all in the name of getting a vehicle...be any more selfish??

is there any honor in thinking that's what he did....
to me...
the blatant use of other...you, daughter, OP..is more insidious than a true EMA/EPA

he has his van...
and still sees the OW's children more than his own....


When I was in the dark, in terms of his activities with ow, I took the things he said at face value. I believed him. Now after speaking with ow, I am second guessing everything he says-I should not have talked to her.

I will have to choose to believe him and not let her influence my thoughts or attitude.

rad what you said ..
I will have to choose to believe him and not let HER influence my thoughts or attitude...!!!!!!!

there is ...
you fog speak....

why in heavens earth would you CHOOSE to believe someone who has proven in ACTION that they are not trustable or believeable....!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you should believe nothing he says...
his mouth open and moving.....equals ....babble speak!!!!!

shul

again and again...my advice to you..is drop the plan a and plan b pretense...

go for establishing consistant contact with him and daughter...build you and him by building her and him....

until that man does right by your children....
I don't even know how you can apply the word love to him.....

weekly visits...with daughter...
how is he ever going to be a dad
when is he ever going to be a dad...

when everyone just glosses and ignores his role as a father.....

shul you are way to close this....
i am no professional ..
but I think you need clear assistance in grounding yourself...

I think you need ALA-NON....

ARK

thread killer strikes again...
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Ark

I'm not going to say I'm stalking you, but I do read everything you write, and if you are somewhat of a thread killer it's only because -

What more is there to say, you pretty much said it all!

Weaver

There is one thing to say.

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?



Whoso is forgiven much ,loves much.


I have been forgiven much, Ark.

Shul

uggh....
the judgement card...


excuses and explains e v e r y t h i n g....

dead beat fathering
marijuana and alcohol ABUSE
infidelity

no accountability
no responsiblity
no consequances.....

cause expecting anything similiar to that is ...
judging....

isn't there also something about "suffer the little children?"

I have been trumped...

ARK

Shul.

Okay, I'll take this one on. "For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."

I judge with THIS measure: HARM NONE.
What measure I shall receive in return: HARM NONE.

I have the courage, the strength, and the knowledge to know that I FAIL this test. I accept it and God and I will work on the forgiveness and Her judgment of me another day.

I still judge, and here I will stick. Your husband is causing harm. Huge, tremendous harm.

I can and do have compassion for him. I can and do understand that he is in a terrible and difficult place.

And so fine. Love him all you want. Have compassion for him.

And understand that you are enabling and encouraging his behavior.

Like Ark^^ said, please go find out about Al-Anon. They are good folk. Many of them are Christians like you are, and will be able to help you understand how to love without enabling and without sacrificing.

"Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?"

Compassion does not hand a child a loaded gun and say "go play outside."

Compassion does not encourage a grown man to act in ways that are harmful to himself and those around him.

<small>[ August 06, 2004, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: Just J ]</small>

I am not excusing his behavior, past or present.

He knows himself it is wrong, harmful.

He said the other day that he doesn't want to be responsible for other peoples happiness or unhappiness. He is deeply convicted about the way his behavior has affected those around him.
But he is trying to get his needs met in ways that are destructive.

The bottom line is that we all have to choose between self and love; life and death.

He is struggling with that choice.

For years he has expereinced consequences of his actions, mostly to his own harm- loss of employment, no car, loss of freedom, poverty, watching his family do without which has been hard for him.

The more he tried to find a way out, the worse things got. He has tried to escape his guilt through alcohol, drugs, women, internet and so on. He has pretty much run out of places to hide. Nothing has worked, nothing has given the peace of mind , freedom and satisfaction he craves.

He spent more time in prisons when he was young than out of them. He wants to be in control of his own life. He sees marriage as another sort of prison.

To his credit, in the past year he quit drinking, quit the internet addiction, and he tells me that he is smoking alot less dope these days then has been his habit in past years. He is working every minute he can, and he is frankly scared. It seems he realised not long ago that he is 40 years old, working as a labourer with very little to show for his efforts and hard work over the past 20 years, while other men his age are comfortably secure, enjoying their toys. He has no toys.

He had to come to this on his own. And one day soon he will realise that his free single life was a bad bargain.

He will realise that marriage is not a burden, a trap; something to escape from, but a precious gift from God. That he doesn't have to be responsible for other peoples happiness- that he gets to be .


As with the other things in his life that seemed to promise good but were a lie; this freedom , (including the ow) are like an apple that looks good to the eye, but turns out to be plastic fruit.

I am neither forcing or trying to coerce him to be with us. I can't force my love on him.

I am also not rejecting him, or giving him an ultimatum.

The choice is his. I am here if he wants me. If he doesn't, it is his loss. Up until now I have been available when he has come around. I have offered him love. He knows what is on offer, I think.(I needed to make changes in myself and he has just started to see them.)

Maybe he has taken the gift for granted.

I am trying to be sensitive to Gods leading in this.

Where I was pursuing a relationship with him before, now I am staying quiet, letting him come to me.

As for loving without sacrifice, there is no such thing. Love is costly. Forgiveness is costly. It is a form of giving , and giving has a price. But God has promised that in the long run it is worth it, and I believe him.

Maybe it will turn out in the end that all I needed to do all along was...to do nothing. To let him go, and let him figure this out on his own, him and God.

Roughroad wisely said the other day that you can't push them, they have to get there on their own. I think she is right.

I have been trying for so long, and I have made lots of mistakes, said and done all the wrong things. But I haven't given up on him or stopped trying , as all the other people in his life have done.

Maybe I have been trying too hard.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The bottom line is that we all have to choose between self and love; life and death.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess, or we have to discover that when we give all the love we can, our "self" is most content. Drugs, leisure activities, infidelity - all are poor substitutes.

GC

shul

I know you must view me as thorn in your side...
but gosh the stuff you say...has no actions or plans behind it...

it's fluff....

He said the other day that he doesn't want to be responsible for other peoples happiness or unhappiness

too darn tooting bad....old man's got a child/children...a daughter for Gods sake and he IS responsible for her...
and if he CHOOSES for WHATEVER reason not to be accountable...

then YOU must choose as well based on that...
choose to protect the innocent
choose to protect the powerless
choose to nurture the child that needs it and let the man live the consequances of his CHOICE

not ignore the detrimental affect this has on his daughter...
not you choose him OVER your daughter..in her mind
in her yound adolescent ego driven brain that's what she will see....

The bottom line is that we all have to choose between self and love; life and death.

I can't even begin to understand what that sentence means...

watching his family do without which has been hard for him.
or does he NOT watch that..but turn and run from that....??
be honest

And one day soon he will realise that his free single life was a bad bargain.

why do you say that...how do you know...you and he could spend your whole lives locked in this powerstuggle of futility...
he can chase this illusive butterfly to his grave...

he can shul
and he might
so what is your plan....

I am also not rejecting him, or giving him an ultimatum.

I am not talking about rejecting or ulitmatums I am talking about you setting boundaries for you and your daughter that are safe when he proves over and over again that what he brings to the table is destructive....

be wary of condoning poor parentship and values with your silence...and unconditional love which serves no one...human....in action...but begets uncontolled and disrepectful behavior and actions tied up with a bow called.....love me no matter what I do....

that type of love is toxic...
especially to children.....

shul if he wants to be part of your life...then there should be boundaries and expectation and all those things he doesn't like...
too bad for him..
booo-hooo

shul I keep on you....cause I have great faith you will see your own participation and acts in his sick world.....
and remove yourself from your actions that send confusing mixed messages to someone who is spinning in circles....

ARK

Ark,

I haven't really had time to process this yet, but an interesting thing just happened...

He caaled a few minutes ago. He had been on his way here to do some work, and had taken a detour (I think to get something for ow) when he had a car accident, and smashed up his van.

I don't know about you , but I see a lesson in this, a boundary, a consequence if you will.

I see Gods hand in this.

He had been on his way here to do some work, and had taken a detour (I think to get something for ow) when he had a car accident, and smashed up his van.

I don't know about you , but I see a lesson in this, a boundary, a consequence if you will.

shul i do not believe that God has anything to do with him wrecking his car....
if that were the case....if people were in accidents based on their poor behaviors the roads would be impassable.....


consequance of someones bad driving perhaps....

not a boundary.....

hope he is OK....

ark.....

Shul,

That is remarkable that he smashed up his van.

The idea that the invisible hand of God directs events is, I have to say, something I'm very uncomfortable with, Shul. As you know, I struggle with my faith and don't practice a religion. But that's not what makes me uncomfortable. I won't go into all that, and I don't suggest you reject any of your beliefs. But - I do suggest you be careful not to dismiss simple human responsibility and freewill from your interpretations of events.

GC

Personally, I see the hand of alcohol and marijuana use in the current car accident. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I hope he's all right -- and I hope that this activity eventually ends. He has many accidents and DUIs in his history. There are only two ways to end that kind of behavior. Either stop doing the things that get you there.... or die trying.

I hope he learns. I really, really hope he learns.

And I want you to learn, too -- there is no rescue that you can offer him from this pit he's in.

Here's a link for you, Shul. Please go investigate.

Online Al-Anon Outreach

well shul

how is he?

ark