I just registered here...I am in a mess.
Still think I love my husband, 29 years together is a long time to give up, even if it IS only habit, not love! But I have always been 'looking" for someone else, since almost day one. In fact, had an affair while we were going together with a guy we worked with, then when it didn't work out, decided to marry my husband. He never knew about it.

I was never very sexual with him, he is not the sensuous type, and sex had dwindled to once every couple months, until he found out about my current affair, and now he seems to want sex.

I lost respect for him over the years, he is so needy, and insecure, i feel like we have reversed roles; I am more like a man and he like a woman.

my affair partner of 4 months fulfils much of what i have missed in this life; things I have given up to be with my husband. And yet, i still feel love for my husband, like an old dear friend, when he's not attacking me verbally, or having angry outbursts, or making me feel violated by telling me what i'm thinking/feeling/doing or whatever.

I told him before anything sexual happened, that i was falling in love with someone else. It still didn't make any difference, i literally could not control myself or keep myself from following through with the other man, i think I was just too starved for just too long, it was too powerful to stop. that's the same way it still is; I know that if it wasn't for my husband, i could substitute this guy and live fairly happily the rest of my life. he is more like me, and more of what i respect in a man than my husband is.

So I just don't know what to do; i can't even picture life the way it was; my marriage counselor is useless; everything seems hinged on giving up the other man to start to work on the marriage. This seems like death itself to me now, after having experienced love, and hope and
what it's like to look forward to each day again.

My question, I guess, is, at what point do you just give up on a marriage? Obviously, those based in religion say never, but if you're so unhappy, and it took an affair to make you feel so good again, that speaks volumes to me! I don't know if things can ever be fixed to where my husband behaves like an adult, or redeems himself in my eyes again.

Thanks for any replies or advice.

You've asked a question: "At what point do you give up on a marriage?" Well, considering this is a site dedicated to the saving of marriages, I won't tell you when that is.

What I will tell you is this: if you put the same amount of energy into your marriage and your husband as you have into this other man and your relationship with him, and if you and your husband honestly sat down and evaluated your individual needs, as well as your Love Busters, you would fall in love with your husband again. This has happened time and time again through the work of this website.

Do some reading. Read Surviving An Affair, Read His Needs, Her Needs. You will learn that love is not just a feeling, but love is a verb. You can love someone and eventually feel that love with the right amount and type of work and effort.

Your marriage counselor, rather than being useless, is right on target. You cannot work on a relationship with your husband as long as there is another person in the picture.

I'm hoping sincerely that you have come here for help in saving your marriage. There are many here who will gladly help you get there and accomplish that.

Whocares

I have read your post and plan to reply, but I would like to give it some thought first, please do not be offended if it takes a while for posts to collect...you seem to have several issues all within the same post, and I would like to give attention to each of them
until then--Noodle

Wow...a lot going on here.

I think you still love him. Love him, love him, not habit love him, or old friend love him, or whatever demeaned type of love you wanna say you have for him, love him. I think you truly love him.

What is sounds like to me are there were issues in your marriage that were preventing your needs from being met. Sexual Fulfillment may be one of them, and there are a couple of other things that may have been depleting the love "bank account," if you will. His less assertive behavior, maybe he was not providing that domestic security you sought, etc.

The thing is, sometimes we betrayed spouses (BS) can be pretty thick skulled when it comes to seeing or guessing what needs we were lacking at filling for our spouses. And you wayward spouses (WS) can choose some pretty destructive ways to go about getting those missed needs met (i.e. an affair).

I would wager that your husband is willing to use this as an opportunity, the wake up call, albeit a very hurtful, destructive wake up call, to make the changes that you have not articulated very well up until this point. You can think you communicated these issues, and maybe you did do it in a loving, calm, adult way (most people do not), but I would wager that now he is REALLY ready to listen. Really ready to own his part in this mess. And ready to fix his mistakes. Ready to meet your needs. He, too, wants something better.

I would wager, that he, too, does not want what you used to have in your marriage. I can bet this, because he was probably hurting from some needs not being met in the relationship, and it created a viscious cycle.

And the thing is, if you give your marriage a chance, a REAL chance, you may find the same joy, love, and hopefulness. But, you will have to put aside your affair partner. You do have to put that aside. You cannot know if your marriage, although it seems down right impossible now, may just be all that you dreamed it can be, if you stay connected to this other man.

Now, don't you think 29 years, your family (assuming you have children), you, your dear husband, and your future happiness deserves this?

As far as where to go to get perspective....you came to the right place. There are lots of WS and BS who have weathered this storm, repaired their marriages, and looked back in AWE at what they were about to throw away, and what amazing life they built for each other instead! And that is no joke...they will come on this thread and share their stories, and you will see that what you are feeling is not new and unique, and the pain in all the prospects and choices you have in front of you are not new and unique, and they can help you get through it. Additionally, Steve Harley can share some insights, through his articles on this site, or even better, through one on one counseling, which will at least allow you to make a well informed decision.

I wish you the best of luck...welcome to MarriageBuilders.

Welcome to MarriageBuilders. I'm glad you found this place. Try to read some of the posts of some of the other women that have gone through the same thing. Hopefull some will post to you.

You will have to have no contact if you want to save your marriage. I know that is not what you want to do. But please consider that you have only been with OM for 4 months. Of course he looks great right now. You two have not had to go through a lot of the day to day problems, and boring routines with each other.

But at any rate, hang in there. We will do our best to help you.

You know, .... I hate these posts... <wink, wink>

First off WhoCares.. you got some good advice from ISgirl and DipiT.

ISgirl said:
What I will tell you is this: if you put the same amount of energy into your marriage and your husband as you have into this other man and your relationship with him, and if you and your husband honestly sat down and evaluated your individual needs, as well as your Love Busters, you would fall in love with your husband again. This has happened time and time again through the work of this website.

Do some reading. Read Surviving An Affair, Read His Needs, Her Needs. You will learn that love is not just a feeling, but love is a verb. You can love someone and eventually feel that love with the right amount and type of work and effort.


DipiT added:
The thing is, sometimes we betrayed spouses (BS) can be pretty thick skulled when it comes to seeing or guessing what needs we were lacking at filling for our spouses. And you wayward spouses (WS) can choose some pretty destructive ways to go about getting those missed needs met (i.e. an affair).

You can think you communicated these issues, and maybe you did do it in a loving, calm, adult way (most people do not), but I would wager that now he is REALLY ready to listen. Really ready to own his part in this mess. And ready to fix his mistakes. Ready to meet your needs. He, too, wants something better.

There are lots of WS and BS who have weathered this storm, repaired their marriages, and looked back in AWE at what they were about to throw away, and what amazing life they built for each other instead!


I wish I had something more worthwhile to add. Sometimes it is better to just keep repeating the good advice and the possibilities that exist for your marriage. I too believe your husband doesn't want the old marriage back, he wants a better one ... he just didn't know how to go about it, neither did you. With the help of marriage builders you can both learn and grow together.

whocares,

I like the others would like to welcome you here. I think you will find a lot of good information here. You will also find some very frank assessments of your situation. I think mine may fall into this category.

You really did NOT ask if you could save your marriage or make it better. But, the news that many are giving you that OM must go is correct. Nothing good can happen when there are three people in the marriage. And NO you are not justified in having this affair.

Having said that I think I would like to acquaint you with the goals of this site and Dr. Harley's counseling. It is not that a marriage survive, most here are not stay in the marriage at all costs. The goal here is to make the marriage much better than it was or has been in years. So when people here talk about saving your marriage, we are all talking about you saving a marriage that is something you enjoy and your H enjoys. It can be done.

I would like to join the others and suggest that you read Surviving an Affair and His Needs Her Needs by Harley. But, really these books will only make sense to you when you decide to give your H a chance and move OM out of your life. There is a lot more to say, but I thought I would respond to your post on a point by point basis,so that you can see where my thinking is coming from.

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I just registered here...I am in a mess.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This single sentence is the ONLY reason I responded to you. I realize you want your affair affirmed and your decision to have an affirmed. That is NOT going to happen here. But, you stated you are a mess, and that suggests that a part of you knows this is NOT the right course of action and that you are at least aware that you are hurting your H.

Based on this sentence alone I will respond to the rest of your post, because I think there is a good way out of this mess and in the end you will be happy, your family will be happy, and your H will be happy. It really is simple, but it definitely NOT easy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Still think I love my husband, 29 years together is a long time to give up, even if it IS only habit, not love!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh yes you are confused. You "think" you love your H of 29 years, but then you think it is only a "habit". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> You are actually not so different from many of the posters that come here. We'll see if we can sort this out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But I have always been 'looking" for someone else, since almost day one. In fact, had an affair while we were going together with a guy we worked with, then when it didn't work out, decided to marry my husband. He never knew about it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, there are several ways to look at this statement. To me it says that this OM is NOT the guy nor were any others because you have always been "looking" for someone else. This suggests that many of the problems in this marriage are not your H's but yours. My guess is that you have always feared commitment and feared that you had "settled" for your H. Yet, in 29 years you are still with him. When will it be time to admit that through thick and thin, he is still there. The commitment issues, perhaps your fear of being let down, was NOT founded.

Time to back up and look at this from different angles. Your fear, your "looking" suggests many things but one of them is NOT that your H is the wrong man for you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was never very sexual with him, he is not the sensuous type, and sex had dwindled to once every couple months, until he found out about my current affair, and now he seems to want sex.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This statement implies to me something very different from what you are saying. Being a man and married for 28 years I can say with certainty if you "never very sexual with him", he probably backed off because he did NOT want to force you, but he craved you and wanted to be much more sexual with you. Want proof???

Look at your last statement. Your "current" affair has led to him wanting sex. Do you know why? Part of it competition, but part of it is he NOW KNOWS that you do like sex and by golly he wants to have sex from you. So I doubt he was not sensual, he was taking cues from you, and when you shut down, he backed off.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I lost respect for him over the years, he is so needy, and insecure, i feel like we have reversed roles; I am more like a man and he like a woman.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He is so needy and insecure??? Let's see you have had how many affairs on him, including before the marriage started. You failed to meet even his need for sex, and he now knows what he has probably feared for 29 years you cannot be trusted. Do you suppose that would make you insecure if you were in his shoes??? I think so.

Further, you are making what is called a "disrespectful judgement" about your H. You assume you know what he is thinking and what he feels. If you want to understand the power of a DJ to destroy a marriage read the articles on this site about Love Busters and particularly DJ's.

Finally, there is the issue of transference. It is very common in affairs. A W will cheat on her H or an H will cheat on a W, and then come back to the marriage and NOT trust the spouse that was cheated on. I suspect if you were honest with yourself, the insecurity and the neediness are really as much your issues as your H. After all you were always "looking" which suggests these two treats.

Finally, you are NOT more like a man. No self-respecting Man would act like you are. All you are is a W that is cheating on her H, and trying to justify it. You are not unique here. In fact, imagine what it is taking for your H to stay with you now. You don't have a clue because he has been strong enough to hang in there while you have cheated him of years of love and affection that he should have received from you. Time for a perspective change, whocares.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">my affair partner of 4 months fulfils much of what i have missed in this life; things I have given up to be with my husband.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, of course you missed many of these things with your H. You said yourself that you NEVER gave to your H what he needed or talked to him about what you needed. You cheated your H out of the opportunity to fulfil what you were missing. This OM is just that, he will pass along because you are just "looking" as you always have been. Has it occured to you that your H gave you far more than you realized or you would NOT have stayed with him and gone with another man, because after all you were "looking" and clearly the marriage vows did/do not mean an awful lot to you. You could have left any time, but the reality is your H was more to you than you want to admit especially while you are in an A. The data says I am more correct than you are, whocares. Please think about this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And yet, i still feel love for my husband, like an old dear friend, when he's not attacking me verbally, or having angry outbursts, or making me feel violated by telling me what i'm thinking/feeling/doing or whatever.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah! so he is not taking this very passively is he? Imagine that. You want to change the interactions with your H?? We can help you with that if you want. We can offer you strategies that will change how your H respsonds to you. As for feeling violated, it works both ways, and since you are the only person you can control why don't you stop violating him, and he just might change. You can always send him here. We will talk with him as well. It is done here often.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I told him before anything sexual happened, that i was falling in love with someone else.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And what was your H supposed to do?? Did you offer him any advice that could help you and he work to make the marriage better?? No I doubt you did. You just sort of dropped the bomb and kept right going with the affair right? Tell me you actually tried to help. I will say this, it was at least an honest thing to do, and that is a good thing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It still didn't make any difference, i literally could not control myself or keep myself from following through with the other man, i think I was just too starved for just too long, it was too powerful to stop.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To starved for something you would never let your H do. It is a sad think Whocares, it really is. But, again you are not unique here, and yes this feeling is fairly normal among wayward spouses, WS.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> that's the same way it still is; I know that if it wasn't for my husband, i could substitute this guy and live fairly happily the rest of my life. he is more like me, and more of what i respect in a man than my husband is.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your OM is more of what you respect in a man than your H? That is an interesting statement. You think a man that will have an affair with a married woman is something to respect? You think a man that will lie and cheat is something to respect? Frankly, as a man, I think your OM is a scum and would NEVER measure up to what a real man is. I realize this is your "fog" talking, but this man is no bargin, we already know he is a liar and a cheat.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So I just don't know what to do; i can't even picture life the way it was; my marriage counselor is useless; everything seems hinged on giving up the other man to start to work on the marriage.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, explain to me how you would expect to rebuild your marriage with OM in it? I am sure this hurts your H deeply and it will make him less likely to endure what he will have to in order to rebuild your marriage and become the H you need. Oh, yess he has changes to make as well as you do. Your counselor is telling you the straight skinny.


[qoute] This seems like death itself to me now, after having experienced love, and hope and
what it's like to look forward to each day again.[/quote]

I am sure it does. You are deep into the affair and it is great your H covers your basic needs and you can go off and be romantic with OM without worrying about any realities of life, other than life threatening STD's such as HIV. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My question, I guess, is, at what point do you just give up on a marriage? Obviously, those based in religion say never, but if you're so unhappy, and it took an affair to make you feel so good again, that speaks volumes to me!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, you certainly can do it anytime you want to, but giving you are a mess you KNOW in your heart although you won't admit it now, this affair will NOT fix your life or you issues. You are unhappy with your marriage because you have never committed to it, after all you have been "looking" since it started. This suggests that your relationship with OM has no chance. IN fact only about 3% of marriages coming from an affair succeed. So the odds are you would be out of the relationship with OM sooner than you will be recovered from destroying your marriage.

Will that make you happy.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't know if things can ever be fixed to where my husband behaves like an adult, or redeems himself in my eyes again.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I am sure you don't find this statement as amusing as I do, but it is so perfect in defining the term "the fog". You are having affairs on your H. YOu have always been "looking". You have denied him sex, you have gone out of your way to belittle him, and even throw the affair in his face, and he needs to "redeem himself in my eyes again." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

That is rich, Whocares. It really is.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for any replies or advice. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, are you still thanking us for the advice?? I think you really need to stop and think about what you are doing and what you have done. If you could bring yourself to read the books recommended and offer them to your H, I think you will see a lot can be done with your marriage. But, first you will have to stop the affair, and then go through withdrawal and that is not pleasant. You can read about it her as well.

My advice is that you tell us if you have children together, and how many affairs you really have had. Then you need to do two things. One is make a list of the ways you feel you have failed your H. THen make a list of the ways you feel he has failed you.

Then look at these lists and see how many of the issues could not be addressed. Bring them here and let us see them. You will be surprised how easy it is to change around a marriage once you get the concept of love busters down. When you do that then you need to read about "radical honesty" and the Policy of Joint Agreement, POJA.

I know all of this is premature, as you are still in the A, but let me assure these measure while simple sounding can completely change your marriage if you and your H decide you really want to rebuild it.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by whocares:

until he found out about my current affair, and now he seems to want sex.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How did he find out?

PS.... "he seems to want sex"... what does that mean? He's asking for sex? He's parading around naked in front of you? He's asking to give you a massage? What exactly does "seems to" mean... How is his desire for sex with you expressed by your H's behavior or words?

Pep

<small>[ August 02, 2004, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

whocares - Have you been unhappy, really, for years and years? Or has it just been since the affair? Can you think of any happy times with your husband?

I do thank you all for all the answers/advice/and yes, honesty-after all, i admit my life is now a mess...

I'll try to answer as many things as I can remember being brought up..

My husband never wanted sex...it was an issue since day one--even in our early 20's he would say "it's too much like work" and that sort of thing. I didn't care as much back then i guess. We could go weeks at a time without sex and it was ok with me for the most part. But as we got older, the time between "encounters" became longer-the normal was once about every third month-and when I would try to initiate things, i would be rebuffed, which really hurt, so i quit trying.

He himself went through what I am now going through 15 years ago. We separated for a couple years. He thought the grass was greener, he admits, and dated lots of women, while i found one guy and stayed with him the whole time. I guess it was his midlife crisis or something. So maybe I didn't really forgive him for that, but I think i have; I just maybe feel more justified with what's happened to me now.

And that's also why he is being more understanding that another partner might be, because he knows what it's like, and knows he did it. I was faithful all the married years until this happened.

I don't really try to justify this affair at all; I know it's the wrong thing, and wish it hadn't happened, but it did, and there you have it. i can't honestly say I will ever regret it; it just feels so wonderful to be alive and in love again, after so many years of misery. And yes, my husband and I have had LOTS of great times! if it was all bad, the choice to leave would be easy! he is my oldest friend, and I wish we could have changed things before this; i asked lots of times to please not scream and freak out and do the things that have always scared me, but he couldn't stop, until lately when he knew how serious it had become for me; serious enough to find someone else i guess.

my therapist says this means he CAN change, and it's basically my fault for allowing him for 29 yrs to control me and keep me from having friends or going anywhere, and I admit I am to blame for that. In stead of allowing these things, i should have politely said i was going to do things I wanted sometimes, instead of caving in to him, because he was insecure. Now at this age, i just want the things I have given up I guess.

And I don't think he has ever been aware of my "looking" over the years. The truth is, i no longer know which came first--so much control on his part that i was desparate to break free, or him afraid to give me freedom out of fear i would leave him. I am all for being with each other most of your time, I also think that makes for a good relationship; but i also feel it is normal to have occasional get togethers with same sex friends, maybe a lunch or something, or to join an excercise class, that sort of thing, and I am not allowed to do that without him freaking out. it's just become like a prison, and no, we also do not have couple friends either, it is simply him and I, and any hint of anything or anyone new being added into the mix causes him to freak out and wonder 'what's wrong with us". Believe me, it is very difficult living 24/7 with that kind of no boundry person.

My only friend acceptable was my mother who is now gone.

Yes, i think you are all right, i do still love him, and wish i hadn't have gotten into this mess, but I really did try to fix things, and then i guess I just couldn't take things anymore, and wanted something good in my life, something that was just mine, all mine, and I really will not regret it for that reason. Too many years of misery, and even though it's wrong and is a mess, I don't regret the good feelings from it. I'm not trying to justify it, it's just the truth as I see it. Like I deserved some fun.

My husband would now like to maybe find someone else too-which, if I was in his shoes, the last thing I would think of is THAT; so it makes me wonder if he really does love me, or if what we have is actually love, or some sick kind of co-dependency.

The idea of him with someone doesn't make me jealous, although thinking of the OM with someone drives me crazy, which i also have read is sort of normal reaction, because it is the early stages of "love".

So, no, I'm not justifying something I know is wrong; i know in my mind it's wrong, but yet, I feel like I deserve something good too.

yes, maybe the marriage can be put back together , in a way that would be acceptable to us both, but i just don't feel as confident of that i guess; i feel like it will be just back to business as usual, everything his way. So at least I'll have these great memories when it's over. That's the only way I can think of it right now, and if that's the "fog" you're talking about, I am thankful for it at the moment. It gives me hope, and I haven't had any for a very long time.

I guess in a way, after thinking about it more, I feel like I have been hurt so much, so long, that I am not as pained by hurting my husband right now, I know that's not nice either, and wrong also, but I can't help it, it's how i feel. And I do thank you all for replying and trying to help me...

PS: We have a 20 year old son together, that's it. I am a decent looking woman, by the way, of normal size and weight, so no repulsive issues by why he never wanted sex. It just kind of always felt like maybe I was his mother or something, in his mind.

Pick one.....

A) Stay with marriage and husband and flawed marriage, work toward rebuilding retionship and never see OM again.

or

2) Divorce husband. Have legitimate relationship with OM or anyone else of your your choosing.

Both choices involve losing something you want to hang on to.
Both choices allow you to maintain your integrity.

Staying unhappily married while remaining an adulteress is not a valid choice, is it?

Is OM also married?

Pep

<small>[ August 02, 2004, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

wc:

"So, no, I'm not justifying something I know is wrong; i know in my mind it's wrong, but yet, I feel like I deserve something good too."

And so you ARE justifying something you know is wrong.

"So at least I'll have these great memories when it's over. That's the only way I can think of it right now, and if that's the "fog" you're talking about, I am thankful for it at the moment. It gives me hope, and I haven't had any for a very long time."

The fog gives you hope??? Gadz! Where's your integrity? Where's your honesty? What are your morals and ethics?

"I guess in a way, after thinking about it more, I feel like I have been hurt so much, so long, that I am not as pained by hurting my husband right now, I know that's not nice either, and wrong also, but I can't help it, it's how i feel. And I do thank you all for replying and trying to help me..."

And so you are justifying your cruel treatment of your H.

wc, you ARE in a fog. An insideous, horrible fog. You "feel good" because feeling good is more important 2 you than being good. I feel sorry for your H. I know exactly how he feels.

-ol' 2long

Whocares,

Well, one thing I know for sure, is that he is lousy at controling you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> After all you did find time to have an affair, and he could NOT control that could he?

This suggests that your counselor is more on the ball than you think. You allowed this, and when you decided not to allow it you simply had an affair and what did he do? So actually, your counselor seems to be pretty sharp.

But, now let's look at this again. Your H now knows he cannot control you. You now know that shutting your H out was not a good thing. It is time you two had a few very honest and frank talks about what each of you want out of a marriage.

There are a few counselors and Dr. Phil is one, that states one should "earn" their way out of a marriage. Frankly, I don't think either of you have done that.

So is it possible for your counselor to talk with you and orchastrate a discussion of what both of you would think the ideal marriage would be? Is it possible for you to think about this?

As you stated your H can change and so can you. The idea is for the two of you two change in a way that meets each others needs and is within behavior patterns that you both can feel comfortable with. Hence the POJA, please read about it.

Time to talk Whocares. You are not the first that found that somehow the A catalyzed the situation. An A never helps a marriage, but how people respond can completely change the marriage. So look at what your separation did NOT do, it did not open up the communications in the marriage, and you can see the results.

Now the lines of communications are open, use them and see if you and your H can finally have what both of you wanted all along. Oh! and by the way, if his drive is low, it can be tested and in many cases it can be addressed.

I think it is time you both started to earn this divorce if it is to occur, and the first step is open, honest and respectful communications.

Give it a try.

God Bless,

JL

Yeah I guess you're right; even though my husband had affairs first during the marriage, two wrongs don't make it right, and my having one now is still wrong, no matter how wonderful it feels. The OM is not married, his wife cheated on him and he got divorced after 19 yr marriage. That's the funny part. maybe that's his "justice".

i have morals and integrity somewhere, always did anyway, just sick of the status quo i guess. I was also betrayed but don't hold a grudge about it, and if we work through this, I doubt if he will either, although the male ego usually has a worse time with that sort of thing.

yeah, it's really probably time to give up my fun and go back to the living hell i know is the right thing to do. I always do the right thing, except for this time, and unfortunately, it feels great enough to not want to give up.

So, if I can even break it off with the OM --which feels at the moment like I'd rather die--my husband may not be able to change his ways enough to make me happy anyway, (or me change to what he needs) then i'll lose my one shot at happiness, but I guess that's the risk involved. I just have a hard time believing
anything will change after all these years. I'll just always be miserable, i need to be stoic and accept that, it's my lot in life. I loved being totally selfish this few months, doing something wonderful for myself, t's been the most freeing, incredible, wonderful experience of my entire life. This is what makes it bad, when it is compared to all the years before. My husband can be a nice guy too, but there was never anything physical there with us, just wonderful friends.
I guess friends is what makes a long term marriage work, but it sure shakes you up when you get to experience passion for someone. It is addicting. I can understand now. thank you all for your advice, please wish me luck.

Yeah I guess you're right; even though my husband had affairs first during the marriage, two wrongs don't make it right, and my having one now is still wrong, no matter how wonderful it feels. The OM is not married, his wife cheated on him and he got divorced after 19 yr marriage. That's the funny part. maybe that's his "justice".

i have morals and integrity somewhere, always did anyway, just sick of the status quo i guess. I was also betrayed by my husband, but don't hold a grudge about it, and if we work through this, I doubt if he will either, although the male ego usually has a worse time with that sort of thing.

yeah, it's really probably time to give up my fun and go back to the living hell i know is the right thing to do. I always do the right thing, except for this time, and unfortunately, it feels great enough to not want to give up.

So, if I can even break it off with the OM --which feels at the moment like I'd rather die--my husband may not be able to change his ways enough to make me happy anyway, (or me change to what he needs) then i'll lose my one shot at happiness, but I guess that's the risk involved.

I just have a hard time believing
anything will change after all these years. I'll just always be miserable, i need to be stoic and accept that, it's my lot in life. I loved being totally selfish this few months, doing something wonderful for myself, it's been the most freeing, incredible, wonderful experience of my entire life. This is what makes it bad, when it is compared to all the years before.

My husband can be a nice guy too, but there was never anything physical there with us, just wonderful friends. And with his control and abusive tendencies, it sometimes makes me hate him.

I guess friends is what makes a long term marriage work, but it sure shakes you up when you get to experience passion for someone. It is addicting. I can understand now. thank you all for your advice, please wish me luck.

Whocares:
No one wants to sentence you to a lifetime of a loveless marriage. We want what will make YOU happy too... And your marriage will not be happy for either of you if you are not both having your needs met...remember that viscious cycle I was talking about. Your BH probably got real clingy and controlling because he felt you were emotionally detached, and the cycle fed itself.

The principles of this site are designed to build a marriage of love, friendship, companionship, and yes, passion, for both of you. YOU CAN HAVE THIS....if you are both ready and willing to work on it, you can both have it!

Can you send him here for some help and guidance?

It would be real hard to send him here for guidance, because I can't tell him the truth about the ways I feel,I can't be myself, I never could be-because "myself" is not acceptable to him. it's been a lifetime of false fronts. False fronts to reassure him, false fronts to keep him happy by denying wehat I want in life. it's been the only way to make it work.

As it is, I will probable have to delete all these posts, if that's possible, because he will track down anything I do on the internet and read them; in fact, i am risking it just by reaching out for help here! I honestly have no private thoughts-he feels the need to know everything in my mind, my life , this isn't just because of the affair, but has gone on since day one, it's just the way he is.

Whocares,

I think you are missing something. When you spoke up and you told him, he had to listen. You don't seem to understand your power in your marriage and it is more than you realize. He wants to remain married to you. If he states he does not, the accept that go for the divorce.

You are painting yourself into a corner needlessly. Talk with your counselor, have your H talk to the counselor, and the you two talk seriously about marriage, what it means to you, and what each of you want. If he is unwilling to change, or forgive, then you might need to move on. But, the reality is he knows how he hurt you and he is understanding this.

You don't have to been mean to him but you MUST be radically honest with him, or he will NOT know what you need from him and the marriage. HE IS NOT A MIND READER and you have failed to speak up and as you said you have presented a false front.

I mean seriously if you lead him to beleive everything is cool, why would he change?? You would not either. Clearly from his affair you should have learned that he needed something in this marriage he was NOT getting. It is time to discuss that as well as what you are not getting.

This is NOT a hopeless situation, but it is one that requires that you two be honest with each other. If you are nervous talk with him in front of your counselor.

But, talk to the man, you just might be surprised.

God Bless,

JL

wc:

"even though my husband had affairs first during the marriage, two wrongs don't make it right,"

No, but three lefts do!

"and my having one now is still wrong, no matter how wonderful it feels. The OM is not married, his wife cheated on him and he got divorced after 19 yr marriage. That's the funny part. maybe that's his "justice"."

This isn't "justice", it's revenge. One of my favorite 2uotes is "Revenge is like taking poison and waiting for the other person 2 die." Like you, your OM never learned the RIGHT way out of a horrible si2ation. Rather than blame others for the hurts you experience, OWN your part in getting your M 2 the point where you make harmful choices. THEN, do something about them.

"i have morals and integrity somewhere, always did anyway, just sick of the status quo i guess. I was also betrayed but don't hold a grudge about it, and if we work through this, I doubt if he will either, although the male ego usually has a worse time with that sort of thing."

Don't assume. TALK 2 him. Work WITH your H.

"yeah, it's really probably time to give up my fun and go back to the living hell i know is the right thing to do. I always do the right thing, except for this time, and unfortunately, it feels great enough to not want to give up."

Own your part in making your M a "hell", 2. Then change that.

"I just have a hard time believing
anything will change after all these years. I'll just always be miserable, i need to be stoic and accept that, it's my lot in life."

You have built a self-fulfilling prophecy. Now it's time 2 toss all these assumptions out the window. Currently, they're clouded by your illicit relationship. You don't WANT your M 2 be fullfilling, and so it isn't. You WANT 2 "feel good" and so your A makes you feel good. YOU, and only you are responsible for making yourself happy. Not your H, not your OM. YOU. Penny Tupy has this 2uote from Frank Pittman ("Private Lies") on her homepage:

"“Marriage is not supposed to make you happy. It’s supposed to make you married, and once you are safely and totally married then you have a structure of security and support from which you are free to make yourself happy, rather than wasting your adulthood looking for structure”. ….. Frank Pittmam'

"I guess friends is what makes a long term marriage work, but it sure shakes you up when you get to experience passion for someone. It is addicting."

Heroin and crack are like that 2. Since you can't effectively divide your affections like you are, why not try 2 focus all your affection on your primary relationship, where you CAN devote yourself and be passionate without feeling like a jerk for living a lie?

-ol' 2long