Some of you may recall my situation. Approximately 30 days since D-Day of WW EA with family friend, co worker OM and also WW bail-out of 13+ year business partnership with me. WW told OM of NC on phone including “I Love You’s” and I will miss you’s” and so on.

Went to Plan-A, however WW refused to make proper NC with OM. For last 3-weeks, WW has been going to Bible Study with a F-teacher of MB 8-week in-home class. I have also been to 3-Bible Study classes with F-teacher and H who helps with 8-week MB class. WW and I do not go to these classes together. Bible Study is good. WW and I actually took same class 14 years ago when WW did similar betrayals.

F-teacher tells WW (and me) that EA was not infidelity and that it is not as serious as I am making it out to be. (WW has told me she is sorry for allowing her emotions to get so deep for OM. WW lied to OM about several issues of our M for sympathy and affection. WW admits to “loving dearly OM”). F-teacher and I get to the point of getting Strongs Concordance out debating whether it was actually an affair! F-teacher says there is no such thing as EA, only PA is considered to be infidelity by God-that WW was “wrong” to do this-but clearly no infidelity and that I should “forgive as Jesus forgave and move forward in our M immediately”.

I suggest: WW and I counsel-call SH, tell him we agree that each is 50% responsible for damaging M. Then we accurately describe recent EA and job (bail-out) situations to SH and let him advise both of us whether EA actually happened; whether WW should continue with proper NC letter and also to advise us about business bail-out. I offer that if SH says I should do as F-teacher suggests; that I will seek proper counseling to help me with emotional damage. WW refuses to call based on F-teacher’s “knowledge and opinion” that we should not call SH as no EA actually happened!. F-teacher says we should take MB home class in Fall with them and until then I should pray for “supernatural healing” from God!

Can someone please explain this to me? I have now gone to Plan-B and asked WW to move back out tomorrow. There is 12 YO DD involved.

Matt 5:27-28 - "You heard that it was said, 'You must not commit adultery.' but I say to you that everyone that keeps on looking at a woman so as to have a passion for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

So ask her.... what does 'looking at a woman so as to have a passion for her' mean?

L.

Fishracer, first of all, what is a F-teacher? Maybe I'm a little slow here. Second, whatever an F-teacher is he or she obviously knows nothing about As. Is this an MB class, as in Marriage Builders? If it is, why is this person teaching it? If you read Surviving an Affair it clearly talks about both EAs and PAs.

Before you do anything I would call Steve Harley yourself and get his advice. My H and I have counseled with him. I spoke to him 1st several times alone when H was still very fogged out. This F-teacher's words are just what your W wanted to here. My advice is dump F-teacher. You don't need someone who is going to confuse you both.

Also isn't there a commandment that says something like, "Though shall not covet your neighbor's W?" I would say stating love to another person while married, and they're married, might fall into the covet category.

I just hate it when people counsel others on such serious issues and don't know what the heck they're talking about. Take Care! CV

Orchid:

OH yes: I referenced Matt 5:27-28 and was told that this passage considers “the thought of fornication”, and by definition helps to prove that an affair must be sexual which WW and OM were not doing. Interestingly enough; the Greek meaning of “fornication” includes a reference to “lust” which F-teacher would not consider. It’s a strange deal! The thing is; WW is very smart and I’m surprised that she is buying into all of this. In an earlier post; I talked about the power of denial. I’m still in a state of disbelief over all of this!


CV55:

F-teacher is a female teacher. Yes; she and her husband teach the 8-week in-home Marriage Builders Class and probably do OK with it. However you're exactly right. F-teacher is way out of bounds about this! It's about out of control. I wonder if Steve Harley and/or the moderators ever read these posts and offer comments!

Fish, first off, HARLEY himself does consider an emotional affair to be a legitimate affair and so do most trained counselors. I don't know what F-teacher's qualifications are, but she doesn't sound too experienced.

Secondly, it doesn't matter what you call it, she can call it a damn baloney sandwich if she wants, it is still destructive to your marriage and needs to be stopped. However, changing the name won't change the truth of her behavior, its still bad. Bastardizing the English language won't change that.

If I were you, I would just call up Steve Harley and get his assessment and advice. He is a professional counselor who has a strong, successful background in marriage counseling.

Actually, I believe that if you look through the bible "lusting in the heart" is an A and a sin. Further, the exact words also say something about being of a "hard heart". Check with your minister or Bible.

If this lady proports to follow MB principles then she should know there is such a thing as an EA. It is in Harley's books.

Must go.

JL

I agree with Just Learning and Orchid… EA’s lead to ‘adultery/lusting in the heart’ and IMO Matt 5:27-28 teaches that ‘adultery/lusting in the heart’ is infidelity and just as damaging and wrong in God’s eyes as a physical affair.

Fishracer,
EAs lead to PAs. Anytime your W shows more care for someone other than you it is an incredible offense against you.

So what if F-teacher disagrees? Read Harley's material. Look at the Bible.

Cherished

Thanks all to the posts. I have read HNHN, and since D-Day have read all of the MB infidelity section and have SAA on the way. WW refuses to even look at MB site; much less read a book.

Bottom Line; WW wants a D and is listening to whoever will support her stories. (Just as she did when lying to about us and forming EA w/OM). WW is moving out again today. I am this close >< to D and moving on.

Absolutely amazing.

These charlatans have done WAY more harm than good.

More evidence that counseling should be sought from trained and educated counselors, not self taught Elmer Gantrys.

Would you hire a plumber to represent you in court, or a lawyer to fix your leaks?

Do not seek any more advice from these quacks.

WAT

<small>[ August 04, 2004, 07:33 AM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

I'm with Melody - whatever it is called, it is destructive to your marriage.

Have you done a solid Plan A?

believer:

I'm with Melody - whatever it is called, it is destructive to your marriage. Have you done a solid Plan A?

Yes; I've done a solid Plan A. Since WW does not believe EA actually happened, she refuses to make proper NC letter; leaving open-ended "I Love You" filled phone NC. WW says her actions with OM "were wrong" and has apologized, but will not consider any further responsibility and will not consider talking to SH. Note: I have asked MB for a call with SH; if for nothing more than my own peace of mind.

As for the semantics about scripture; I'm over all that and will sever contact with these people. They have no responsibility with the problems in our M; but the opportunity to help our marriage was definitely there with WW. To get caught up in the "Greek" vs. "Hebrew" definition of "infidelity" and allow that to affect the life of our 12 yo DD and damage emotions so much makes little sense to me! I gues WW is back to deep in the fog again!

Thanks.

FR, very disheartening to hear to say the least but SH can really help you turn things around. counsel w/him, even if it's just you. he will help you find some clarity and remain focused. even though SH hasn't come right out and said he is a Christian, I believe he is. After all, how can some one counsel someone about being Christ-like and not be a Christian? SH has even compared to what i'm doing (plan A, etc.) to witnessing to a friend about Christ. Again, this would have only been brought up by a Christian. SH can offer you immediate, professional feedback, specific to your situation.

get the appointment asap. have you counseled w/SH before? if not i would just like to kind of warn you that most of the first session is spent primarily on you telling SH your "story" or background information. you may have time to ask a few questions. i would have these question written down and i would be prepared to take notes when you are able to speak to him. it's not ideal for the counseling to just be you but none of us are in the ideal situations. but even if the sessions are just w/you, you can still find a tremendous amount of peace and support when talking to SH. He has a view point that is incredibly insightful.

i've counseled w/SH a lot. my H has talked to him 2 times. i've been very diligent in posting my sessions w/SH in order to allow me to refer to it for things i need to remember and to help others as well. that thread is titled "sessions with steve harley and the plan." it might be a couple pages back but it may be worth reading for you even though our situation are very different. but anyway, just try not to do anything right now, don't make any decisions and put things off as much as possible until you can talk to SH and make a follow-up session really soon after your first one. prayers to you, RR

Fish, I'd really like to know what Steve would think of people teaching a MB class that are not qualified? Isn't there something called infringement rights? It just seems wrong to me.

Hang in there. Steve has a way of explaining things that really brings clarity, and for me, a certain calm. He just really gets the dynamics of these As. And your W is in deep fogland if she thinks saying "I love you" to a man who isn't her H is not an A and damaging, well HELLLLLOOOO! Earth to Fish's W!!! CV