Hi folks, I'm new here and not too sure how to get around this forum yet, but I would like to be upfront from the onset-
I am a woman in my late fifties, in relationship with another woman in her early fifties. We are both divorced from long term heterosexual marriages and have been together for 9 years.
We are experiencing all the same sorts of problems that any other couple might face, but before I continue , I would like to know if I am in an accepting environment. Thanks, Warm Ashes

Warm Ashes,

I can only speak for myself. Yes, you are in an accepting environment.

That said, there have been a handful of threads on the gay marriage issue here recently, and judging from those, I think there are some who might not be inclined to participate in helping with your struggles. However, if anything, those individuals will refrain from responding on your threads. The individuals here at MB are incredibly kind, and even in those gay marriage debates, I didn't see anything posted that was offensive or hostile.

GC

Warm ashes,

I think you need to address this question directly to JustJ. She could offer you her insights as to how this has worked for her.

As you clearly are aware there is some controversy about situations such as yours, but I think you will find that most of the people here are surely willing to offer advice and answer questions concerning your relationships.

GC gave you a very good response. Some will not approve but may be inclined to help just the same, others who don't approve will probably just leave your thread alone.

I must say as a male, I often wonder if my insights would be useful in situations as yours, but if you ask questions I beleive I can offer some insight on, I will do my best.

Over the years we have had posters in relationships such as yours, posters that were losing their mate to a homosexual or lesbian affair, and some where the situations were ambigous.

So the call is yours. There are many here who are devotely religious, predominately Christian but not all. These situation being painful as they are tend to reinforce once need for peace and spiritual guidance. Sort of like the bumper sticker: As long as there tests, there will be prayer in school. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

So my recommendation is try it out and see how it works.

Best of luck,

JL

Thank you for responding so quickly and so positively.
My partner and I spent the first 6 years of being together raising my infant grandson (unexpectedly). We were a great team and knew our way around children. There were many very difficult legal battles, but we supported each other well and protected the child. Two years ago he returned to his mother and although we believed the timing might have been better, things have worked out reasonably well.(Mother straightened out her life). Our relationship changed drastically however. We did the best we could under the circumstances, but many things changed simultaneously. We went into bankruptcy, lost our home, lost my car, lost my income, and the power balance shifted tremendously.I was independently financially secure before this nightmare began, and now I am fully dependant. It was a mutual decision, due to our earning capacities, ages and personal lifestyle interests. We have been in marriage counselling for several months, as well as individual psychothrapy. There is still a strong desire to stay together, but there are many, many battles. I seem to get taken down more easily, as I am more sensitive and tend to sacrifice and repress my own needs. She on the other hand, although interested in the Marriage Builders material, says that she likes who she is and doesn't want to make many (any?) adjustments to her independent behavior. I have studied the material closely from the web site, and I know she will be unwilling to work with things like the Policy of Joint Agreement.I have given up almost everything that I can to make her happy, but she gets very angry, if I try to get some of my own needs met and accuses me of being petty and critical. Is there any point in trying to use this tool with such resistance ? I am getting so desperate. I don't know what else I can suggest to bring a happier more eqitable solution to our relationship.

Thank you JL for responding also. I am encouraged to try ! Hence my next posting.

From the perspective of giving/taking and emotional needs as they're discussed here, where does each of you feel you stand in that balance? Does she feel she's giving enough, and do you feel you're giving too much? It sounds like you need more from her if you're going to feel that the relationship is satisfying to you.

What does her financial support mean to you? Have you looked at the emotional needs questionnaire?

It is very late, Warm Ashes, and I have to go to sleep. Things will remain pretty quiet around here until morning in the U.S. You may want to bump your thread then and see if you get more responses. Know what it means to bump a thread?

I'm sorry if I'm not much help. I have learned so much about marriage and relationships here at MB since my own troubles started, but I'm no expert. JL is a wiser man than I am, and maybe he can help some more.

GC

Dear GC,
Please go to bed. It is very late and just because I am a nighthawk that doesn't mean I expect others who are not, to stay on board.Thank you for taking the time to respond, I'll follow up tomorrow. Just to answer your questions before I leave this post, Yes we have done the Emotional Needs Questionaire and her needs are better met than mine, although we both would have some work to do in this area. Secondly, she provides me with financial support in exchange for all domestic,property and running of the household responsibilities (which she hates). This was never and still is not (as far as we truly believe) part of the problem.

Warm ashes,

Let me ask you some pretty mundane questions. If you were to leave her, could you survive financially? Can you get a job? Is this important to you? I am not sure why you feel the need to 'sacrifice and suppress your own needs' can you explain it?

What battles need to be fought? What has happened to your relationship?

Now a few comments. If you and she decide to use the tools here, there is something that you MUST understand. The major change that will occur will be your perspectives, not either of you in any substantial way. If your perspectives change your actions will automatically change. That is really what this is about. It is what the needs questionaire is about.

People often feel the MUST meet all of the needs, but really all they are is a channel to show ones love. I know this example doesn't apply but let's say you and I are in a relationship, and you like flowers, cards, things of that sort. Now I care for you deeply and I am uncomfortable with flowers and cards, but I like to show my affection via actions, so I change the oil in your car regularly.

To me that is me showing that I care and that I am protecting you. To you I am just this greasy guy, who did NOT bring the flowers or the cards. Is there no love, of course there is, but we are not showing so the other can recognize it. Hence the needs questionaire, it allows each person to more accurately target their show of love and affection, but doing it in a way the other recognizes.

Has anyone changed??? Not really. So her fear is unfounded. Now let's look at something you said at the end. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have given up almost everything that I can to make her happy, but she gets very angry, if I try to get some of my own needs met and accuses me of being petty and critical.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, trying to get your needs met, is not going to work, because it seems like a demand. The relationship needs to be rebuilt so that she WANTS to meet your needs. Further, if you give and give, you actually will destroy this relationship. Because it builds resentment in you and it puts her on the defensive. There is a saying that </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is where "radical honesty" and the POJA come into play. If she doesn't want to negotiate then the solution is that nothing happens. You just do what YOU want to do. When she gets tired of that then you two can negotiate. So your giving is very likely what is killing this relationship.

I hope you have read Harley's articles about the "giver" and "taker" part of each person. There must be a balance, if it is not balanced trouble will occur.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Is there any point in trying to use this tool with such resistance ? I am getting so desperate. I don't know what else I can suggest to bring a happier more eqitable solution to our relationship.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah! Young Grasshopper (Warm ashes), you cannot resist yourself you know. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> The point here is that you make the changes you feel need to be made in YOU. You develop a more balanced approach and your changes will cause a change in the relationship. Her resistance or accceptance are not really important at this point. You become more balanced and the resentment will fade. You become more balanced and you won't feel the need to beg for your needs.

I don't know the issues here, but these things are pretty universal. Lift yourself up, hold yourself in higher esteem, do things that make you happier, and there will be a response.

Think about it.

JL

<small>[ August 04, 2004, 01:08 AM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

Dear JL,
Thank you so much for taking the time to give such a thoughtful reply. I read and re-ead your message several times and this is the best response I can think of at this time.
I would be hard pressed to survive financially. Any job that I might be able to land at 58yrs. isn't likely to support me very well (I mean below poverty line). I had quite comfortable means before I was swindled out of everything I owned. At the time we met I was supporting the household from my portfolio.If I decided to work outside the home she has already told me that she wouldn't like it and would not share the load at home. And then in the next breath tells me to "get a life" !! I am so confused !!!
The battles we engage in are largely about me asking for her to negotiate some of her plans or ways of behaving. She doesn't seem to care too much what I do as long as I carry out my responsibilities reasonably. She is very bitter about the way her ex-husband ripped her off in the divorce and has major trust issues as do I.
From Harley's material, I was under the impression that asking in a respectful way for what you want or need is acceptable. Not demanding per se !
You are right about the resentment factor, it is a growing problem and I'm well aware of it's destructive potential. It is so hard to shut it down when I constantly get trampled.
Generally speaking, it's me that asks to negotiate something or other and she generally refuses. She calls it being autonomous!
So it isn't really about not doing what I want to do, it's about not being given any choice but to accept her life, ways of being and sit co-operatively on the sidelines, or ignoring her completely. (She has already made it clear that she likes to spend 50% of her time alone, so ignoring her would have little effect)
Yes I've read about the "Giver/Taker". I have been working hard in my personal therapy to change a lot of my ways of being and I am healthier now by far. I am alone 80% of the time and have adjusted to that quite well, but to be "more balanced" in my own life I would have to care less about the survival of the relationship.
This may, in fact be the secret of it's success, but I have no idea how to execute it.
I am really in no position to support myself (I never have done so) and in order to stay with my partner, I feel as though I have to remain silent, smiling and compliant.

Hi Warm Ashes,

Welcome to MB!

I often wonder if I belong here too. I am not in a gay relationship, but I am not married and at one time was the OW in my relationship. I was very trepidous (is that a word) about posting here, but after a few months of reading and posting I am in a much better place emotionally and I feel now that I have the tools (knowledge) to get what I need out of a relationship, and just as importantly to give love in a way that is fulfilling to both.

I really have no helpful advice except that if you stick around I think you will get your answers and be in lot better place emotionally to either improve your relationship, except it as it is AND BE HAPPY or move on.

The people here are incredibly wise, helpful and compassionate. And you have a lot to offer others in the way of support so you are needed here as well. Since you have been in a gay relationship for so long then your skin is probably way thicker than mine, and you can take the occasional flaming if it happens.

So don't leave and I am glad you are here!

Weaver

warm ashes,

It sounds like you're in a relationship where you are clearly submissive and your partner likes it like that. How is marriage counseling going? What does your counselor say to her behavior (it's my way, and you like it or tough?).

Normally, I'd suggest that you work hard with Radical Honesty and the Policy of Joint Agreement, and get your partner to at least hear you. Then when she does something unilaterally that hurts you, you let her know (without lovebusters). But without her changing, you'd be facing a Plan B separation down the road, if you cannot stand the current situation.

Hmmm. I'm alone 100% of the time (WH living with OW), but I have a very happy life, thanks to marriage builders. So I think you can stick with us and start working on the things you can change.

I would encourage you to get a job, outside activities, or some other way to help meet your needs. No partner can take care of 100% of their spouse's needs.

Once you are happy and enjoying your life, things may change in your relationship.

Warm Ashes,
I've been reading your posts and it seems to me that the issues your mate is having are HER issues, it just happens to be directed at you.

You mentioned her bitterness over her divorce, and how she "lost everything". I'm going out on a limb and guessing she herself may have been in a very controlling environment ?

This is classic, I've had bosses like this, they get bullied at home, so come into the office and bully everyone one, to "even" out the balance of their own life.

Have you said POINT BLANK... hey look I'm trying with all I have, but I feel that we need to make some changes in the way we interact, or I feel that our relationship is heading for doom.

Turn the tables, ask her what YOU could do to make the relationship more even. Ask her what she thinks YOU are doing that makes her unhappy.

I hope you find something that works, everyone deserves to be happy.

p.s.
no problem with the nature of your relationship, we actually have a couple that we are VERY close to. I wasn't raised to judge, and it's really not my place now is it ? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

WA,

Is it possible for you to do volunteer work? I ask this question because if you don't have work experience working as a volunteer is a good way to build this. Of course so is just looking for a job.

My point is that you may be expecting more from this relationship than your partner can deliver. Further, she may not appreciate what you do for her.

An interesting thing about baggage is that only airlines seem to be able to lose it. Your partner apparently has considerable baggage, and perhaps you do as well. She won't address it until she is ready to. So my initial advice is protect yourself by developing a means to take care of yourself.

If it means the house is not well taken care of and the beds don't get made as often so be it.

As you can tell, you are talking to your typical problem solving male here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Think about this and let us know what you think.

JL

Dear Weaver, K, Believer and Betrayedinjersey,
Thank you all for your time thoughts and warm acceptance. Each response has given me new perpectives and I would like to respond.

To Weaver: Our therapist has clearly said that at this point the issues are significantly hers to deal with (i.e. that is why she too is in individual therapy, but she started about a year after I did so she needs more time and my patience). I loved the parachute quote.

To K: I hear you so well, but I love my partner and also have little means to "move on".

To Believer: I am puzzelled about what kind of a relatonship you are in that you are alone 100% of the time or did I misunderstand you ?
I have no independant transportation, we live in a rural location with no public transit. I have developed a lot of interests at home like writing, poetry, painting, researching and reading about a host of things. We also have 4 geriatric dogs that require a lot of care. I would not expect a partner to supply 100% of my needs, that would be most unfair, but some would be much appreciated.
Beautiful quote, thank you !

To betrayedinjersey: You are partly right about her former relationship. Although she did as she pleased,(exercising her automomy) she explains that her ex-husband did nothing for or with her to show that he loved or cared for her. I have clearly asked what I can do to make her happy and have been making every effort to meet her requests. As long as I do this all is well, it's when I ask for myself that trouble starts. One of the greatest difficulties here is no matter how carefully or diplomatically I bring something to her attention (i.e. so and so upset me, or I'm feeling that I need whatever need met) she takes it immediately as a personal criticism and becomes rageful. (This is a big hurdle for her in therapy.) She has made it clear that she loves me , but expects unconditional acceptance of her behaviour. Very little room to negotiate here.
I am very happy to be amongst others (MB) who can offer perspective and I am always open to changing me if I can.
I have two questions- What are all the letters and numbers, dates etc. that follow some of the postings ?
Do you think others could benefit from my perspective about anything on this site ? I am wise about life, but really new to MB.
Thanks again.

Dear Weaver, K, Believer and Betrayedinjersey,
Thank you all for your time thoughts and warm acceptance. Each response has given me new perpectives and I would like to respond.

To Weaver: Our therapist has clearly said that at this point the issues are significantly hers to deal with (i.e. that is why she too is in individual therapy, but she started about a year after I did so she needs more time and my patience). I loved the parachute quote.

To K: I hear you so well, but I love my partner and also have little means to "move on".

To Believer: I am puzzelled about what kind of a relatonship you are in that you are alone 100% of the time or did I misunderstand you ?
I have no independant transportation, we live in a rural location with no public transit. I have developed a lot of interests at home like writing, poetry, painting, researching and reading about a host of things. We also have 4 geriatric dogs that require a lot of care. I would not expect a partner to supply 100% of my needs, that would be most unfair, but some would be much appreciated.
Beautiful quote, thank you !

To betrayedinjersey: You are partly right about her former relationship. Although she did as she pleased,(exercising her automomy) she explains that her ex-husband did nothing for or with her to show that he loved or cared for her. I have clearly asked what I can do to make her happy and have been making every effort to meet her requests. As long as I do this all is well, it's when I ask for myself that trouble starts. One of the greatest difficulties here is no matter how carefully or diplomatically I bring something to her attention (i.e. so and so upset me, or I'm feeling that I need whatever need met) she takes it immediately as a personal criticism and becomes rageful. (This is a big hurdle for her in therapy.) She has made it clear that she loves me , but expects unconditional acceptance of her behaviour. Very little room to negotiate here.
I am very happy to be amongst others (MB) who can offer perspective and I am always open to changing me if I can.
I have two questions- What are all the letters and numbers, dates etc. that follow some of the postings ?
Do you think others could benefit from my perspective about anything on this site ? I am wise about life, but really new to MB.
Thanks again.

Dear Weaver, K, Believer and Betrayedinjersey,
Thank you all for your time thoughts and warm acceptance. Each response has given me new perpectives and I would like to respond.

To Weaver: Our therapist has clearly said that at this point the issues are significantly hers to deal with (i.e. that is why she too is in individual therapy, but she started about a year after I did so she needs more time and my patience). I loved the parachute quote.

To K: I hear you so well, but I love my partner and also have little means to "move on".

To Believer: I am puzzelled about what kind of a relatonship you are in that you are alone 100% of the time or did I misunderstand you ?
I have no independant transportation, we live in a rural location with no public transit. I have developed a lot of interests at home like writing, poetry, painting, researching and reading about a host of things. We also have 4 geriatric dogs that require a lot of care. I would not expect a partner to supply 100% of my needs, that would be most unfair, but some would be much appreciated.
Beautiful quote, thank you !

To betrayedinjersey: You are partly right about her former relationship. Although she did as she pleased,(exercising her automomy) she explains that her ex-husband did nothing for or with her to show that he loved or cared for her. I have clearly asked what I can do to make her happy and have been making every effort to meet her requests. As long as I do this all is well, it's when I ask for myself that trouble starts. One of the greatest difficulties here is no matter how carefully or diplomatically I bring something to her attention (i.e. so and so upset me, or I'm feeling that I need whatever need met) she takes it immediately as a personal criticism and becomes rageful. (This is a big hurdle for her in therapy.) She has made it clear that she loves me , but expects unconditional acceptance of her behaviour. Very little room to negotiate here.
I am very happy to be amongst others (MB) who can offer perspective and I am always open to changing me if I can.
I have two questions- What are all the letters and numbers, dates etc. that follow some of the postings ?
Do you think others could benefit from my perspective about anything on this site ? I am wise about life, but really new to MB.
Thanks again.

Thank you JL, for your comments. I guess our postings crossed in cyberspace. Needless to say I agree about volunteering (done many many years of this), but am limited at the moment by lack of transportation. Another part of this however, is my longing to have some quality time with my partner when she is available (works long hours and a lot of overtime). One of the reasons she likes me at home is so that I can be there when she is. Its one of her "perks" for being the financial supporter. It gets "muddy" however as she also wants/needs her "alone time" and I don't know if it would make things better or worse even if I could get out. It's unfortunately not as simple as, she would be O.K if I wasn't home, because she changes from day to day. If she was willing/wanting to spend time with me and I wasn't able to be there on a regular basis there would be a whole new set of problems. Work around her schedule ? Almost impossible. She works constantly changing hours and shifts, taking O/T when she can and rearranges her schedule with fellow workers from time to time. I NEVER know when for sure when she is going to be available or for that matter when I will have the use of the car. She is exhausted most of the time. Works in a high stress job and does her best to provide for our life. I have suggested she consider other employment and I would work at something too, but it is totally non negotiable.She likes her job.

WA - regarding the abbreviations, this forum is part of the Infidelity section at MB, and so most of that stuff refers to affairs affecting our marriages.

I'm a 33-year old betrayed spouse (BS).

I discovered my wife's emotional affair (EA) on "d-day", which was April 22, 2004.

She tried to come back to me, but was unable or unwilling to go through withdrawal from the other man (OM), and this "false recovery" ended when she left me for the last time on May 31, 2004, after a month of me busting my butt to show her love and understanding while she wrote him love letters and saw him in secret and sulked.

Her EA became a fully blown affair, with living together and sex and the whole nine, and though OM has since booted her out of his house, my wayward wife (WW), who I call the sparrow, filed for divorce last week.

I'm in plan A, meaning that I do my best to meet her emotional needs and show her I'm the man she wants to be with and demonstrate that I'm willing to forgive her and I'm changing the things about myself that made our marriage vulnerable. She's "plan-B-ing" me because she never calls or comes to visit me, or responds to gestures from me.

Okay enough about me. Check out the "Just Found Out" section under Infidelity if you need to look anything up.

Your S.O. needs to realize that love between two adults in a committed relationship is not unconditional. Sorry to bust her bubble, but it is not not not unconditional. We must choose to nurture this kind of love. If a person refuses to do the work necessary to protect and preserve her partner's love, she does so at her own peril.

GC

Hey Warm,

If you have a big heart, a computer and some time then you are definately needed here. So many people logging on here who just found out their spouse is in an affair or who has left, and don't know how they can make it through the night let alone the next day.

I really have no advice to give people although I am completely convinced the MB program works. Every time I think I going to leave this forum, someone logs and posts their heartbreaking story and it's like Oh Geewiz, I gotta reply just to let them know people care about them.

Gotta a feeling you'll be around a long time too, like most of the folks here.

What is up with the "warm ashes" name. What does that mean???? It reminds me of the stuff left in my fire pit after all the wood has burned. Is that how you feel, like the fire has died and only the ashes remain? Well atleast their warm, heh? - won't be too hard to get that ole fire flaming again.

Also the numbers at the bottom represent how many posts a poster has under his belt, and the date is when they registered on the forum.