Please see my earlier posts about my H's past A and his relapse after 4 years. We are in individual counseling to try and figure out whether to stay together. H says he doesn't know if he wants to stay married because he still has desires to have sex with other women and knows this is not fair to me. 13 years of marriage and two great kids. Happy most of the time or so I thought. We are truly in crisis and things are very sensitive as we both know everything is on the line.

Tonite H calls home after his workout at the gym to tell our 10 year old he is going to the mall, be home soon. His wallet is on the counter. He doesn't answer his cell phone. 2 hours later he calls to tell me he is having a drink with OW, no biggie, just hanging out, nothing to worry about, they are just friends.

Excuse me? This is the OW who almost destroyed our marriage twice, who had a 2 year affair with my H, and who he was ready to run off with a month ago after a 2 week relapse. H is proud that he told me he was with her, he is telling me the truth, as his counselor told him to.

He'll be home soon, he tells me. Wants to watch a movie with our daughter. Did I notice how great the sunset is tonite? They are sitting on the patio of our favorite local bar. He calls me back 10 minutes later. She is worried that I might call her H and tell on her. Can you believe this? My H is asking me not to ruin things for her and her H! Then she gets on the phone and drunkenly reassures me that she and H are just friends, that our problems have nothing to do with her, that she hopes we will work it out, that she loves her H and they have a great marriage.....this is totally unbelievable! She tells me how she just wants to be there for my H if he needs a friend. I say something about this being rather unhealthy if she is really serious about her own marriage. She says she knows it but whatever.

I am appalled at myself for even talking to her. H comes home and acts like nothing is wrong. 5 years of supposedly no contact, and I find out they have been "friends" or whatever, all this time! I see an email sent today where they talk about "just being friends" after their latest entanglement, and she makes a reference to another woman I have always been suspicious of - he has confided in her about my other fears of other infidelities since their affair!

H is truly proud of himself for telling me that he was out with her - his new honesty as a result of counseling. Tells me that she is his only friend, the only one he can confide in that really knows him. Totally platonic he tells me, and yet, he was ready to run off with her a week ago.

I have given up, I'm afraid. The man doesn't have a clue, and the OW is his confidant and best friend! They are not even having sex, he tells me its all about the conversation and him being able to confide in her. She is the only one who understands him. The man has totally lost it - what is he thinking? One MORE time, he lies, leaves his wife and family alone for the evening while our marriage is hanging on by a thread, to have a few drinks and a heart to heart conversation with the OW. We are in counseling to see if we can save our marriage, and he pulls this.

I told him I have had it, I can't be hurt like this anymore. I tell him that he must be willing to go through counseling to find out why he doesn't want to be faithful, and he says he doesn't want to find out why - he is fine with himself just the way he is. I tell him that we are hopeless unless he tries to figure this out. He says he is trying to make up his mind about trying to be married or unmarried, due to his desire to be nonmonagamous. He does not want to figure out what crap in his childhood caused this "short curcuit". I give up. We have a great marriage, love each other and our kids, but this can't go on like this - I cannot believe what happened tonite! Its like he just totally lost touch with reality, total disregard for what this was doing to me at home when I was already traumtized by the current situation. And he thinks going out for a few beers and spilling his guts to OW is OK cause he had no one else to talk to! This is a sick situation.

Then I find out they "ran into each other at the gym" He admits he runs into her all the time and I have run into her too, and never recognized her! What the H has been going on all this time - 5 years of what I thought was recovery and no contact and they have been friends or whatever, all this time! I feel like his bond with her is stronger than whatever he feels for me, his loyal loving wife, mother of his kids, who has put up with this sh..t and tried to be supportive and understanding all these years. What a joke. I love my H, love our happy family, but our life is a total joke. He is capable of acting totally loving and happy but he has always had this secret relationship with the OW. To find out your H considers his ex OW his best friend is the ultimate insult.
I think I quit. This is a total joke.

EH - I am so sorry to hear of your pain. I have a Wayward wife (WW)but no kids. She is subjecting me to a similar humiliation and torture knowing that she is still seeing the OP and that I know his spouse.
She also is asking me to keep quite about it. I have not told only because WW says she would harm herself if i did. The counsellor agreed that however small the chance it's probably not a good idea at this stage for me to tell. Apparently if someone else found out and tells the other persons spouse it's not so bad <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . Having said that, 2 MC's (as well as just about every person on this site that has read my posts) have told me that it really is important for the OP's spouse to know that this is going on. Once the spouse finds out about the affair it kills the secrecy and takes the gloss off of the affair, not mention that it's much harder for them to see each other. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Whatever you decide I hope that it is the right path for you and your family.

Hi Everhopeful...

I have 2 thoughts for you...

First, if it's such an innocent, platonic, friendship, no biggie, then why can't OW's H know about it? Why keep it a secret from OW's H?

And second, I don't think you should give up until you've exhausted all your options. This would include telling the OW's H.

I have not read any of your earlier posts, but I gather you have not told OW's H about it? May I ask, why haven't you told him?

I am so sorry you are going through this...

Isleepwithacat

EH,,,


It is very clear what has to be done. I think you fear your husbands wraith if you do it though.

You said you cannot take his crap anymore are you prepared to leave him?

Are you prepared to leave him with his affair in tact?

"TELL THE OW'S HUSBAND!"
EXPOSE THIS TWISTED AFFAIR!

Immediately tell her husband. Today. Right now.

WAT

Yes, I agree...you immediately tell OW's H, exposing the affair to the light of day.

If you feel prepared to follow-through, it's an appropriate time for a Plan B letter and separation until he properly ends the affair for good.

Expose! Tell everything! you're not the liar here.. please do tell.. she will have something to lose. It seems your H loves the security of a wife and a home to come to, but doesn't want to be monogamous. Personally its not really a mental problem.....I doubt either a counselor would help him, even if he goes back to his childhood. He has to make a CONSCIOUS decision to be faithful, once you make a commitment, you need to stick to it. It's hard to give a relationship (oh boy do I know, and I dont even have kids)

Well courage.. expose to OW's H.. because they are having an emotional affair if not physical.. OW's and WH should never meet !!! EVER! maybe you need to move or something!

Well keep up the battle.. after 5 years... uhmm I'm wondering... keep up as long as you can. We only have one life to live..... so you choose your path!

I'd like to think that I am above that kind of pettiness, its just game playing, heightened theatrics etc. Her H knows about the H, in fact he sent an emailto my H telling him to stay away from his wife, or he would tell me! Its like a big soap opera. I will ask my C about it, but I don't think it would really do any good at this point. H really thinks this new "honesty" - calling home to tell me he is out with OW, and so proud of himself cause they are just friends - its so twisted I can't believe it. And he is so proud of himself for doing what our C told him to do - be completely honest! So now I hear that he runs into her at the gym all the time, and she runs into me, only I don't recognize her!
He also told me that "we" won't have to worry about her much longer, as she and her H have applied to work abroad. What would telling her H accomplish - the satisfaction of getting her in trouble and maybe breaking up THEIR marriage?
Having her H come after my H as he threatened to do? This is high school theatrics.

H's actions, instability and tendancy to think only of himself are the facts I need to keep in mind to decide what to do, even if he decides he wants to stay. Last night he told me that he doesn't think he wants to change, likes himself the way he is - that is, likes the fact that he wants to have sex with other people. He knows I cannot tolerate this, so if we stay together, he will lie and try not to get caught. And I will live in fear. Its very sad, because he really does love his family, including me, and doesn't intend to hurt me - just can't help himself.

He has two more counseling sessions, and of course, has only been to the one, where he basically told his story - nothing was really accomplished other than he has this new resolve to be honest with me, regardless of how the honesty hurts me. Unless the C can somehow get to him in terms of making him see that he needs to WANT to change if he wants to save his marriage, I don't think there is any hope.

It just breaks my heart to see our two wonderful, vulnerable children act so stoic when daddy is "missing in action", not home where he should be, and see mommy all stresssed out. They, like me, are still hoping for a happy ending and that everything will turn out alright, that we will be the happy, loving, secure family that we can be, that they have grown up with all these years. And that is real to them - but unfortunately, much of the happy loving relationship I thought I had with my H is a lie. I can never trust him unless he gets some help and shows me that he is really committed to change. Its just so damn sad for us as a couple, and all of us as a family.

My heart goes out to you Everhopeful.

I would expose this to OW's H. Like Isleep said, why the worry over OW's H knowing about their 'friendship'?.

This sounds like they are both playing the "we're just friends" and "look, I'm so honest" game...covering up an ongoing EA. Using an IC session on honesty to their advantage.

Expose it.

Good luck and take care.

sss

everhopeful....

I would let him go on his merry empty way....

Thank him for his honesty in what he wants out of life...
thank him and tell him that you

1. have no interest in being with someone who has that value system

your husband doesn't have a clue...you are correct...

what he is seeking is the easy stuff...
multiple liasons...
fluffy easy no committment stuff....

let him have it...
it is toxic to you and your children....

he will either learn this lesson himself...
or be lost to it forever....

I would choose out of this situation
and choose out of being exposed to this as well...

I would go plan b...but not necessarily with a plan b letter...
I would tell him that the real truth is that it is too painful to be exposed to his chaos...and that this is not the type of person that you would even be able to value as a friend....

that would be how I feel...

he is so lost.......
and he will agressively seek those that think as he does...

for you and children cut him free...quit towing him around in the wagon....

the other option is that you set him free...and then give him glimpses of what he is leaving...and take control in cutting his access to it short...

that he leaves...
that he can come for dinner in the evenings now and then...but then send him on his way.....

lots of ways to play this out...
but right now his blatant flaunting of his chaos to detremental for you right now....

ARK

I just finished HNHN last night and I thought I would bring Dr. Harley's viewpoint on to this thread.

I belive it is the last chapter (I don't have the book in front of me so I cannot quote) surviving an affiar, Dr. Harley states very emphatically that your H will be IN LOVE with this woman forever. He will ALWAYS want to engage in the affair and will relape into the affair at his weakest moments. It says in the book the contact with OW has to end COMPLETELY and quickly and your husband cannot be trusted with this person.

I just wanted to let you know that perspective. When I read that the WS will NEVER fall out of love with the OP I was surprised, it puts a perspective on what needs to be done.

Complete exposure. Complete separation from the OW. Even if OP is moving this probably should be dealt with extreme disclosure. What happens if the OW comes back to town? Your husband and the OW will still love each other.

P.S. I want to add that the more time they spend together, the more EN's are being met. The more EN's that are being met the fuller the Love Bank gets. The more they will love each other.

<small>[ August 04, 2004, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: Julius ]</small>

Dr. Harley suggests complete exposure of affairs. It is radically honest. It is allowing the LIGHT OF DAY to hit the situation...bringing it out into the open to INCLUDE the responsibilities affair partners are IGNORING. One person out of four doesn't know? He should.

EXPOSE

When you do make sure you express that you are exposing to save your M and that you love your H and are willing to forgive him.

EXPOSE
EXPOSE
EXPOSE
EXPOSE

Exposure is not pettiness and it is not a game. When you keep their secret you become a third party in the affair and an enabler.

*because affairs work like addictions, telling the spouse ensures that the A has pressure on both ends to stop. When BOTH marriages have accountability...contact becomes twice as difficult to resume. The results of resuming an affair are so devastating, that it's a necessary pain.


*Without her husband knowing, and with secrecy intact, no accountability....what's to keep her/him from repeating this with someone else? Don't assume that this is a one time thing. Or that there is no possibility that it could happen again. When you keep this information from the people directly involved, you set those people up for a repetition of it. No accountability=vulnerability.

*Her husband deserves the option of being tested for STDs since she has been unfaithful....how do your know your husband is the only one?

*You have the information to make a good choice, her spouse deserve the option of making choices now as well. Truth is often incredibly painful...but living a lie is no less painful. Eventually....truth will surface anyway.

*Her husband deserves the option of repairing his marriage knowing what condition it is in. How can he change, meet her needs, understand the vulnerability without knowing the facts? My husband's affairs are one reason I have become the wife that I am. I have faced these demons and changed myself and my marriage so that we don't repeat the same mistakes. Honesty saves marriages...not lies. Lies undermine the very foundation of marriage...in fact, marriages can survive affairs...but not dishonesty.

*growth is painful. Learning that actions have consequences is what shapes our futures and gives us the opportunity to grow. If he/she walks away from this with just happy memories...what do they learn? They learns that he can have affairs with no accountability. She learns that she can lie without consequence. She learns that some how she is outside of the rules.

I do not want you to take responsibility for his actions....and really, telling her husband assures that you will not. I hope this helps you to remember the reasons for doing this. Don't expect much support for these things outside of here....Most people...even ICs simply do not understand the dynamics of affairs. Talk to someone who specializes in infidelity. I recommend Jennifer Chalmers and Penny Tupy.

Plan B is not plan B without a letter....it is only withdrawal without the letter and more likely to just be a precursor for divorce.

My recommendations are to:

*expose the affair immediately

*write a plan B letter and post it here for editting

*set up a mediator for communication so that you can go to contact with your H until he is willing to a) end the affair, b) write a no contact letter, c)set up extraordinary precautions to avoid her including....finding a new gym, blocking her email, new cell phone#, joint counseling with good marriage coach etc. d)accountability for time and money.

Good Luck

I think he just drained your lovebank to a serious degree. If you want to stay at a point where you have some love for him, some hope of later reconciliation, you need to go to Plan B.

Send him off to live his ugly life.

I have no doubt that at some point he will want your marriage, but I do doubt that when that time comes you will want him back if you have contact with him during the time he seeks out what he thinks he wants.

It will be empty and lonely if he's sober enough to see it.

I'm so sorry he's put you in such a difficult position.

Yes - I think Plan B is the only way to go at this point. The more I talk to my H, I believe he is just going through the motions with the counseling, and is certain that to be "unmarried" is what he wants. I also believe that OW is just a symptom of his larger problems, which he admits he is not interested in facing. I actually doubt if he will spend much time with her after we separate.

So the issue seems to be, when is the best time to do this? We have decided to proceed with our annual family vacation in 2 weeks, and then see where we stand when we return. We agreed that if we are over, we want to go out with a "bang" and that this is precious family time together that we may never have again. He agreed that he won't hang out with OW during this period, for whatever that promise is worth.

I guess I need some advice now about where to go about not only info about Plan B, but practical info on separation. I have an appointment with an attorney, and will continue my own counseling.
I also made up my own list of issues for us to consider - how to tell kids, visitation, finances, rules for our relationship, friends, family, work (we work at the same company) and what our relationship will consist of. Any advice on getting a good book or checklist for things to consider? One thing I know for sure, this will not be ugly. I don't want to make things too easy on him in terms of what needs to be done, but I am going to do whatever it takes to make this is smooth as possible for me and the kids. When do you tell them? When you are considering, or when you have definitely decided? Don't want to drop a big bomb on them, but don't want to unneccessarily traumatize them prematurely. I would like to get them prepared and protect them as much as possible. They adore their dad, and have always seen us as a loving, happy couple and family. Girl 10 - Boy 14.

Any advice on where to go? I'll check the rest of the MB website as well.

Thanks to all - sorry this does not look like it will have a happy ending.

I'm probably posting the following in the wrong topic here, since our split seems inevitable at this point, but not sure where to go next, and need some advice.

The bottom line for me now is the kids. We agree that we need to do all that is possible to make this as easy on them as we can. After we split up, I'm not sure how to do this without doing some family things together once and a while, but I fear this will compromise my Plan B, if I have any hope of any future reconciliation. I know that doing things as a family is what the kids will want - but is this really best?

If I have no hope of reconciliation, I guess it shouldn't matter what I do as long as it is best for the kids and makes me happy. Will it make me happy spending time with my family when that includes my H, or will it be too painful, or make me feel like I am letting him have his cake and eat it too? I definitely don't plan to spend one on one time with him alone, or "date" as he would like to do.

He is quite adament that he does not want to be married. Not just because he wants outside sex, but because he wants the freedom to come and go as he pleases. The only thing he is not comfortable with is 1)not being able to have sex with me 2)me dating other men. Both of which would be a given for me after we split up.
He has always seemed so happy to come home to me and the kids, always told me how great it is to have the secure, happy family that he never had as a kid (coming from a broken home where his mom was an alcoholic)

I really, really want to make the kid's happiness my first priority, but not compromise myself in this break up, not for the hope of reconciliation, but for the sake of my own future happiness.

In six weeks, H has gone from happily married to wanting to run off with OW, to wanting to stay with me and work on the marriage, to wanting to leave me to pursue OW, to wanting the marriage again, to deciding that OW is not for him but he still wants out of the marriage. He has changed his tune every few days. But after seeing a counselor, he said that by the end of the session they had both come to the conclusion that he doesn't want to be married and he should leave.
I guess I am holding out hope that he still is not completely stable in his desires, and does not have a clear picture of the reality of being "unmarried" to me. But he actually told me this morning that I should not hold out any hope that he will change his mind. He says he is sure he wants to leave, that we should move forward based on this reality, and it is obvious he is already thinking through the practical details - finances, living arrangements etc.

I have only come to realize his position in the last 24 hours, so I am going through some crazy emotional swings - total dispair, disbelief that our happy home and family is breaking up, hope for myself and the kids for a better future, tiny glimpses of hope that my H will "come to his senses". Figuring out how to handle the relationship with my H will be the most difficult. Sometimes I think we need to strive to be best friends, sometimes I think I need to distance myself as much as possible from him emotionally. Staying together as we sort through the decisions that have to be made with this break up is painfully sad, as we continue to be affectionate - each time he holds me and touches me I have to tell myself that this will soon be over and he will be gone.

He says he loves me and I believe him. I guess it boils down to the fact that he believes his decision is best for him, dispite the fact that it is going to cause me and the kids great pain.
Good for him - but not good for his wife and two kids. I just have to figure out how to make the right decisions about how to treat him that is best for me and the kids.

We have decided business as usual until we have decided when he will move out, and then give the kids some advance notice in whatever is the current recommended advice about doing this. Any suggestions on books? I guess I should be posting in the divorce section.

Oh please
They don't want you to ruin things for her and her husband by "telling on her".

Just how childish are they. Has it not occurred to them that the fact that they are sitting there together drinking is what is ruining things for her and her husband, not whether or not they get told on. And maybe the continued contact over five years might just have an effect too.

I can't believe this. And your H so proud of his honesty. Boy got to give it to him. Sure is being honest. He's got you there.

Seriously, I am so sorry Everhopeful. This just so sad for you.

Expose to her H. Consider that you might actually be able to help him.

I don't think I could continue to try faced with your H's attitude. If he cannot see himself monogamous and is now just flaunting his affair in your face with his newfound honesty, then I guess it is going to be up to you as to whether you can live like this. Has this really been going on for 5 years or had it stopped and restarted. Don't know that I could Plan A for 5 years or even consider it again if I discovered renewed contact. Although I have learnt the hard way that you don't know what you will do until you are faced with it.

I am so sorry. I hope whatever happens now with you and your marriage that you draw the strength and love you need from your children, your family, your true friends and fron God to carry you through such a difficult period in your life.
C&S

EH,

Wow, your husband sounds positively delusional in his thinking.

He has this fantasy of what life will be like "singe", whether or not he continues seeing OW. He hasn't a clue of how it's going to feel when your friends and family learn about this.

Please don't protect him from the consequences of his actions. Telling OW's H is necessary, as well as telling your friends and family. The A continues as long as he is in contact.

Don't make it easy for him to destroy your family. I would like to think that if I were in your shoes I would be able to detach and make logical decisions. But I'm sure I would be absolutely crazy, especially hearing the nonsense your husband is saying. But if you can, ignore his "affair/single speak as babble...". He has taken leave of his senses. I hope Orchid comes along to share her babble lecture!! She has a reverse babble strategy.

My thought is for you detach emotionally, sort of a "hope for the best, but plan for the worst". See an attorney to help with the plan...and for the rest of it simply stall. Let him take the initiative to tear your family apart. Don't help him by protecting him from any negative consequences of his actions. He's in a fantasyland that simply doesn't exist. I think by stalling and feeling the consequences of his actions, his head might clear just a bit.

He's not comfortable that after separation he can't have sex with you and after divorce he's not comfortable that'll you'll date others?

Cake eater.

I think you should stop having sex with him NOW.

I think you should set his move out date AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

Give him the consequences he is "not comfortable" with.

I know you posted about going on family vacation...we went to Disneyworld between our 5th & 6th separations, with my H telling me he would move out when we returned home. I just wanted to spend the time with him. We had a really great time. It's among my favorite trips.

Still, he moved out about 10 days after we returned.

So, go on the vacation if you want, but don't expect that to change his mind, no matter how fun it is, no matter if you have sex with him. I think your H won't stay until he's lived this fantasy life.

I would start agreeing with him that he will never change and of course he's moving out. (I think Orchid would <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

Book recommendations:

Divorce Busting by Weiner-Davis
Crazy Time by Abigail Trafford
Your Husband's Mid-life crisis by Sally Conway
Hope for the Separated by Gary Chapman

But the more "uncomfortable" consequences you can make him feel, the better, just don't date until after the divorce. But, you can be very, very busy and in Plan B he will not have the details.