<small>[ August 05, 2004, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: rickster9 ]</small>

Enid:

I find this remark of yours very telling:

I have Plan A'd for the past six months [...] and I just don't know how to get the message across to him that there are things I need to know about the A to give myself some kind of closure.

I think you can Plan A yourself to death, and you will never get that message across to him. Instead, your love for your husband will dwindle away, and your pain will grow and grow. You need to Plan B to protect your love and to give your husband an understanding of the costs of his behavior. And you need to start Plan B while you still love him. Otherwise, you risk him coming around, but you don't have it in you anymore to work on the marriage.

Please consider getting some marriage coaching from the Harleys or Penny Tupy. Your husband does not have to participate for you to start coaching.

enid,

Sorry for your enduring pain. As for your H, well you need to find another way to communicate with him without bringing out his anger. Do you bring it out? No he let's it out but the secret is for you to get your info and bypass his anger button.

How? Well from what you posted thus far, it appears the A is not dead. At least not in his heart or else he would be welcoming your questions so he can help you get closure. Also he would welcome an IC or MC to help both of you.

The fact that he is angry shows he is still harboring some unhealthy feelings. He knows it and when you show you realize this, he wants to be in denial.

Here are some suggestions:

1. You keep a journal on his A and current events.

2. You find a sign, behavior mode or saying when you approach him. ex: May I ask you a question? In a very gentle voice. Initially use this when to discuss all different topics (not just those hot and hard ones), Even like, 'may I ask you a question? (wait for his response or nod), then say: 'would you like rice or potatoes for dinner?' Something simple.

This will indirectly teach him that he has to respond to you and it isn't bad when he does.

If he doesn't respond, don't follow through. Walk away and you decide. If he grumbles, gently remind him you did ask him how come he didn't respond. If he doesn't, let it go. Continue using this technique. It takes a while in some of the older more stubborn ones. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

3. Get with a good MC or call Steve Harley. Do the phone counseling within

4. Recommended reading: Surviving an Affair, His Needs Her Needs, Giver/Taker (all by Dr W. Harley), Love must be Tough (by Dr James Dobson).

5. read the concepts section above.

6. Take the EN questionnaire.

7. Leave the book His Needs/Her Needs lying around for him to be able to browse through but in a safe spot (away from the chlidren and dog).

8. Learn to give short responses. Quiet and calm. Let him ask you. That will show he is somewhat committing to hearing your response.

NOTE: Your H may have a real issue on how to translate your requests in his mind. His Needs/Her Needs maybe real helpful.

9. Be prepared that his A is not done. Either physically with EA/PA contact or even in his head/heart. Either way, he is still waaay out there and you need to adjust how you deal with him.

10. Learn about plan B and keep it an option. Don't be afraid of it.

11. Secure your financial status and learn your legal maritial rights.

12. Don't be afraid to call 911 for any domestic abuse issues.

13. You may need to go to counseling at a local women's abuse center to know what is abuse and how to deal with it.

I will share a brief experience. My WS had moved back home (after being gone for 4 1/2 months). 3 months later, he was accusing me of being crazy (as I was throwing his clothes out the door - this was the 3rd time I caught him back in contact with the OW and no longer gave him the luxury of packing his things nicely). The WS called 911 on me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> The police arrived (2 officers) just in time to see him push me back into the house. It was not hard but he is much taller than me. I was not bruised or cut. The officers called for backup and he was arrested for domestic violence. He spent 2 1/2 days in the local jail with a 10 day RO against him. The charges were finally dropped by the DA (not on his record) but he was instructed to go to anger management classes (he went to an iC).

The anger was due to the fact that he was caught beause the A was still continuing even though he was home.

I immediately went to plan B and he lived out on the streets and with OW for a while. He and the OW did not even last out 1 week. He called me from her house begging to come home and the OW in the background yelling at me to take him back :take him back L, take him back.:

That was waaay tooo funny and scary. I told him to stay there a bit longer since I did not feel safe around him. He begged and begged, even cried to come home. He eventually brought his things back and moved home.

That was a hard lesson for him but the contact did not stop there. When the WS and OW felt safe again, the A restarted. In a different mode (by that time, the sex was not as exciting, I guess so they met less frequently).

When I detected contact, again, he was out the door and plan B went into effect. Each time it got easier for me. Didn't matter whether it was easy or hard for him.

Looking back, he spent parts of 3 winters off and on in his truck with no place (other than the OWs and his moms) to go. Neither place was suitable enough for him so he opted to sleep in his truck.

As long as he was sleeping in his truck, I allowed him to come home and bathe, collect his mail and take care of some of his work. He was to do this when the family was not at home. He also could lose that privilege if he pulled any angry episodes.

He was walking a fine line at that point. Each time plan B was enacted he had to prove more value to warrant us letting him back in. It was hard for him. The stakes for his return went up not down.

This made it quite hard for the OW to make me out ot be the bad person. Also impacted the A because I now had the upper hand on the safety of my family.

Still do. If H steps out again, plan B is in my back pocket and he knows it. All that malarkey about the BS being in control should not be argued. If you feel threatened, you should take steps to gain control. I told the WS that very point and he could not argue against it. I even threw back the scenario back at him with a question, if someone where attacking your family, how would you handle it? I used his answers to plan my defense.

Hope this helps.

L.

Enid, I think that there are some similarities in this thread.and your situation. There are some big differences of course, but neither you or the thread author Warm Ashes, has any leverage in the relationship. The advice is very good and I think you'd get a lot out of reading it. Personal growth and recovery has to be a priority for both of you.

I think I remember posting to you months ago concerning your H's Viagra usage. The whole ED thing can be (is?) a huge LB from the man to himself and b/c of the age difference between him and the "girl" it is possible that he was severely humilitated in the course of the affair. It is entirely possible that he got dumped on his a** (or not), that he was used as a sugar daddy, he could be currently be in a blackmail situation, in fact any host of bad things could have happened.

If this is the case, he is not going to want to humiliate himself further and therefore will react in anger at questioning. Don't take it personally, stay low. Work on yourself first and let him see you change. He may not have accepted what has happened himself yet and until he does you will not be able to get the answers you need. Time will tell if you do. Either way, you need to rebuild YOU.

Read the thread I referenced ok? Best, KB

Enid,

You said among other things </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">His whole attitude is that if you ignore it, it will go away. . .that is how he has dealt with any problems in his life.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So how does he feel if you go away?? Has it crossed your mind to tell him that you fear this marriage, and that you fear him, and that you fear since he is NOT honest with you, he will cheat on you again?

Print out Joesph's letter and let him read it and perhaps he will understand.

You need to talk with him about the future, about wanting to be happy with him and then explain your fears and then ask him simply "What are you going to do to help me with these?" He put them there, he needs to address them.

I suspect you are not the type the needs to know ALL the details, but you surely need to know the motivations, what he is thinking NOW, and what he is doing to protect the marriage.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Or at least to know that he cares how you feel about things.

How did it go Enid. Did you ask him to read the letter?
C&S

He was still very sulky when I got home last night but I remained calm and just chatted about the day. When I asked him if he was okay, he said he wasn't and I said that I wasn't going to apologise again, that I had already apologised for upsetting him and that I would hope that when he was hurting I wouldn't react with the venom and viciousness that he acted with. He didn't answer that.

I gave him Joseph's letter to read but up until we went to bed last night he hadn't bothered to read it. I am hoping he will read it this morning. As to whether the A is still going on, I have no way of knowing because he is extremely clever and managed to fool me for 4 years. I found out purely by accident and have no way of checking on him now, short of having him followed by a PI.

Yes, he has to take viagra to get an erection so the whole A was a premeditated A. He first took a pill and then when and visited her. . .she did not know that he was taking viagra.

I think I would not have hesitated to Plan B if I was a little younger but being nearly sixty has its disadvantages. . .starting over again alone is a daunting prospect.

He read "Joseph's Letter" this morning and said it was a nice letter but that he didn't agree with it. He thought the less we spoke about the A the better it was for our relationship.

I told him that I never said anything to him to cause his extreme anger and that maybe he should look to himself and ask himself what caused the extreme anger. He didn't answer.

Well I guess at least he read it. Its a shame that it didn't get through to him. Its a shame he won't do counseling because his mindset is not going to help you recover and your resentment will only grow.

Reread what ark posted. While it may have sounded hard, maybe you need to take a harder stance with him.

I guess at least he also listened when you asked him to look at his anger. Its a small start.

Hope you can get through to him. Hope someone here can help you.
C&S

Dear Enid,

you'll have to walk carefully but please do not stop walking here.. I had a H like yours for 9 years. He couldn't face up to anything he might have done wrong and would get angry at me instead. He never apologized, not even when he broke my nose.
Some family history with a very dominant father was at the cause of this I guess, he hated himself but turned this anger outwards to others.
When I finally got out of that marriage he mumbled something like "he would have preferred that I would have stood up to him more".

Having had a dominant father too, who had no love for my mother, I found it very hard to stand up to him. I cringed when he got angry and he knew he could always have things his way like that.

It will take a lot of courage from you to stand up to him but you must, for yourself, your M AND for HIM. He can only be released from his feelings of guilt if he can work this through with you. If he learns to face the consequences of what his "ego" made him do. If he did it for 4 years... his "ego" is pretty inflated.

Talk to your counselor on how to approach your H and make him feel safe enough to open up. He'll have to face the hurt he's caused if it is ever to heal, because yes, this wound will fester and not heal unless it's properly cured. How does he know that it will all go away if he doesn't talk about it? Maybe that seemed to have worked for him - that doesn't mean it works for YOU.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by enid:
<strong> He read "Joseph's Letter" this morning and said it was a nice letter but that he didn't agree with it. He thought the less we spoke about the A the better it was for our relationship.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He means better for *HIM*. He isn't concerned about his marriage or your feelings. He is concerned about himself.

Well, there is your answer, Enid. I don't know what to tell you to do, but at least you know where you stand.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by enid:
<strong> He read "Joseph's Letter" this morning and said it was a nice letter but that he didn't agree with it. He thought the less we spoke about the A the better it was for our relationship.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did you explain to him that you don't agree and that you need to talk about it in order to recover? What was your response?

He needs to know that you must know about the affair in order to recover.

Is he REFUSING to help you recover from the damage he caused?

Enid,
Just wondering how you are going and how things are there now?
thinking of you
C&S