NC letter sent last week. Ow called to say received and contact ever since. Sometimes H says he understands NC need but weakens when she calls or e-mails. Other times he blames me for snooping in his e-mail and says they are just friends. I tell him that friendship is not an option since they were once lovers. He wants the M but can't/won't stop C with OW. He is too nice to hurt her and she is sooooo understanding.
Where to from here, I am so sick of the pain, the lies, the betrayal. I want a relationship that is full of caring for each others needs but I am not sure whether he can give this to me. I would rather be alone that being lied to and feeling that H would rather be elsewhere. H says I am destroying a M over simple contact [no sex] and will hurt our kids because of my unreasonable demands on him. Yes, he is clearly in a fog but how do I deal with him, I can't manange not to love bust - I am busting with anger that he lied to me about her and us. Any suggestions? How do you move to next recovery stage with so many lies and mistrust? How do I know he has had NC and plans to keep it? How do I attempt to meet his EN when he is spending time doing things he knows jeaopordize our M?
S

Hi there,

I know all about the lies and betrayal.. I have had it for 7 years. It is tough enough to get over alone, but while he is still in contact its not gonna get better. He needs to worry about your feelings and not hers. Its called sacrifice. He is the one that screwed up and needs to get your trust back, not worry about her. No contact is a must.

Hi to you,
And thanks for the reply. I agree with you 100% but how do I make WH see it our way? He either tells me they are only friends now. Or when he uses his head he admits that contact want help us rebuild but then before I konw it, he replies to her e-mail or answers her call. He came home from work today to say that OW called and he explained his and my position again. Apparently she cried and said she will respect his wishes. I am untrusting to say the least. Now what do I do? Do I take his word on face value, as I have numerous times, only to be betrayed and lied to? Or do I keep snooping and questioning his every move - which will irriitate him because 'I am a control freak and take away his privacy'? It seems that I am stuck ina no win situation. Any advice guys?
S

Arty,

NC should be a simple thing. Everytime he contacts her he hurts you and your chances of recovery. Someone is going to be hurt. He either hurts her by ending all contact with her or he further hurts you.

There is no way that he can come out of this by being a nice guy who doesn't want anyone to get hurt. He has already hurt everyone involved, including himself.

If he is in love with you and is committed to making you happy and your marriage work, he stops all contact. Pure and simple. If he is more committed to her then that is something he needs to talk to you about. She is not his friend and can never be again. She stopped being his friend when she assisted him in committing adultry.

A friend helps you, gives you advice and wants you to do the right thing. Adultry is never the right thing and a friend would not encourage it let alone be involved in it. She is an enemy of your marriage, she is poison to it. The marriage will never heal unless the poison is removed completely, otherwise it will eventually consume and kill it.

Your husband has a choice to make and he need to stick to it once it is made. No back up plans, no faultering, he needs to stand up and be a man.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Arty – I’m so very sorry to hear that this has happened to you, yet again. If you remember, I’ve been exactly where you are and I know just how you feel. It gets more and more impossible with every discovery of renewed contact. I know, I couldn’t have and wouldn’t have put up with one more. I just didn’t have it in me.

It’s unbelievable how your H can say that YOU’RE destroying the M over simple contact. If it’s really that simple, then he’d have no problem giving it up. Typical fogspeak! I think he knows that OW is the enemy of your marriage, but he will push the boundaries for as long as you’ll take it. He doesn’t want to lose you, but if he can keep her in the loop, then he will. He probably also feels guilty for hurting her, but someone’s going to be hurt and so far it’s always been you. She CHOSE this path. She CHOSE to get involved with a married man. She deserves the pain, you don’t. Besides, if he really cared about her, he would cut off contact and allow her to move on with her life. Instead, he keeps her dangling while he gets whatever selfish need met by her.

I think it’s time they both had a dose of consequences. I don’t believe you’ve done any exposing of the A yet and I really think it should be done now, especially to people who know OW, who is clearly never going to respect anyone’s wishes. As far as I remember you saying, she’s been promising that crap for months.

As for being a control freak, you may remind him that he’s ripped any control you had over your life away from you. You’ve been manipulated, by his lies and fake promises, into hanging on to the M while he does what he likes. He’s been the one doing all the controlling.

I’m sorry if I’m making you more angry Arty. I’ve been following your struggles and I’m absolutely livid for you. It’s time you stepped up things a bit, because plan Aing for too long can result in enabling the A. Other than exposure, I don’t really know what else to suggest. Is it time for plan B? I really don’t know. Perhaps some others will offer you better advice.

Hey there. Well, I guess I will start out by saying that you cannot move to the next stage of recovery. You haven't reached the first stage yet. NC MUST be established. Until it is, you are spinning your wheels, girlfriend.

First off, have you read the book "NOT Just Friends" by Shirley Glass? It is wonderful. Could answer many of your H's questions regarding inappropriate friendship. Unfortunately, once that line has been crossed in a friendship, when one of more of the people involved are married, it can never go back. It is just a fact of life. But it is VERY common for the WS to want the M and the OP. VERY common. Your sitch is not unique.

First off, you will need to expose. Yes, your H will become angry with you. Why wouldn't he? What does a kid do when you take away the candy they snuck away with and were enjoying with abandon? They scream and kick and pout. And it passes.

I know a lot of the vets have suggested to others in the past that contact made by OP should have a reply sent by both you and your H. OW must know that he is telling you everything. She needs to know that their fantasy bubble has been burst, and perhaps a bit of shame to keep her away wouldn't hurt either! She is manipulating your H with her "understanding" and tears. She is playing right into his hands.

You are too, though. Each time you complain, become hysterical, whatever, you are reacting just the way he thinks you will. It is good that he is telling you about the contacts, you do not want to lose that. Have you talked with H about how you BOTH can reply to emails or phone calls? Just blocking her number and email address from those couple accounts she uses most would send a HUGE message to her.

If she feels enough rejection from your H, as much as he can muster at this time [remember, he still sees this WAY different than you do - my H did this SAME thing - it just takes TIME] with your support and understanding, she will begin to get the message. With the decreased contact, your H will begin to find his center again, and he will begin to see the whole picture, not just his little piece.

I am not condoning, saying be a doormat, nothing of the kind. You are a great woman, and you do not deserve to be treated like this! Nobody does. But,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">but how do I make WH see it our way? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you cannot make anyone do anything. You can influence, encourage, support, love, but you cannot MAKE. I know, frustrating. The first thing I learned in an 8-week long parenting class H and I took several years ago is: If it is alive, you cannot control it. Whether it is a plant, a dog, a kid, or a spouse.

You know your sitch best. Your H is having real difficulty doing this on his own. Begging, nagging, crying is not working. Expose where it could do the most good. If OW is M, tell her H for sure. Tell your H you understand he is doing the best he can with her continued contact, you appreciate his honesty about that, but it is hurting you deeply. You think you should be able to let the OW know that you know what she is doing - the OW needs to know there could be repercussions for her continued involvement!

Take care, and read read read, pray pray pray!

sS

To boobyprize:
What a clear, concise statement you just made! I have copied it and saved it as a document, so when WH is ready, I can give it to him to read. Way to go!

To arty,
Don't give up. I am facing exactly the same situation as you are. I know things are going to be very, very bad for both of us. Hang in there.

Hi Arty,
I agree with what everyone else has said. Don't give up! I was where you are and it was tough day after day to know that he was seeing OW then coming home to me but I played the Plan A game and once I fully understood the plan, did a pretty good job of it most times. The A lasted about 1 year, D-Day #1 came after 3 months, NC lasted about 2 months then it resumed, and D-Day#2 came almost 1 year to the day after the beginning of the affair. The exposure it critical. Our situation was being rumored about for a while but not too many people knew for sure. OW's parents thought it was great that she was happy so there was no pressure there. She left her husband almost immediately thinking my H would leave me immediately too so there was no pressure from him. She really doesn't have any close friends and the people she is friendly with at work were glad that she was finally happy too.
My H, however, was getting pressure. He's in a public position and many of his colleagues disapproved. Our children (early 20's) were totally upset with their dad, to the point of hardly paying any attention to him. My sister and brother-in-law were cool to him, and his family was upset too. My brother and sister-in-law are really religious so they pretty much disowned him for a while although they also tried to help him with the moral dilema.
What really was the catalyst for WH ending the affair was the day he was supposedly taking a shower and called OW from the bathroom just as I picked up the phone to make a call. I, in a very cheerful voice, let them know I was there and played into the conversation for a minute. My H was embarassed beyond belief, especially since the night before, we had been discussing how he was going to end A, and OW felt threatened by being exposed to me. It was the first time she was caught in the act! Her reaction was to love-bust him like crazy, trying to pressure him into leaving me. It had the reverse effect and he broke it off with her a few days later. Once our kids knew the whole story ie who OW was, they pressured their dad too. Exposure under the right circumstances can help.
I did learn, though, that NC can be extremely tough on WS. H is still in withdrawal and some days he really pines for her. It's heart-breaking to watch but so far he has managed to resist. If we make it another week or so, I think we'll be through the worst of it. H knows he did the right thing for the family and the overall "package deal" but he still loves her and that hurts!
If you haven't started on an anti-depressant, I strongly suggest it. I am not a drug person at all and resisted for a long time but starting on Zoloft has really helped me be the cheerful Plan A-er! I take a low dose (50 mg per day) but it allows me to think clearly and sleep at night.
Good luck with your situation. Hang tough!

Arty -

I'm a FWS, I hope you don't mind if I reply to your post. I'm sorry for what you're going through. I know the h*ll of establishing NC.

I agree that exposure, or even threatening to expose, could be the ticket to stop OW from continuing C.

Also, once sincere NC has been established, your H's e-mail address needs to be changed, with OW's address blocked. New phone numbers would be good, too, if possible! Are you in MC? A counselor could maybe help convince your H of this.

I also agree that you cannot make anyone do anything, and that your H is extremely foggy right now, and needs help. But OW and WH both need to know there are repercussions for their actions.

This is just my experience, and what worked for us, but my H told me, in no uncertain terms, that we could not stay M if I continued C with FOM, because he considered any kind of C (even without sex) a continuation of the A.

God bless you as you go through this.

Rose55

Hi All,
I just had a few minutes to check this sight and was so excited to see so many responses to my post. I can't express how it feels to have others understand and care about my disaster. I often feel like I am going to explode with all the thoughts that I feel my friends can't understand and my family could not cope with. It is weekend and the kids need my attention- I will respond more personally at a later time but I had to stop and say THANKS SO MUCH for being here for me. I am stronger only because of you guys.
S

Hi all,
Let me update you on my never ending saga. I explained to H that I had 3 states of being.
1. A little sad but cope alone.
2. In recovery and both of us working at M
3. H still in C with OW yet at home with me.
I explained to him that option 3 is not open to me because I become like a wild animal feeling trapped. I then behave in ways I am not proud of and end up love busting as well as being un unattentive mum.
Whether we choose 1 or 2 was up to H but he knows I would prefer 2. He explained to OW that he must give us a chance to be the best we could be and that meant NC. I am pretty sure he will not C OW but am as sure that she will C my H. Now the more she disregards his request for NC she will begin her LB and hopefully he will get sick of her and eventually hurt her instead of me. This is my short term plan and I will keep plan Aing.
I think in his head he knows he can not be her friend but he wants to try juggling everyones pain and that is impossibe. He sees her as someone who helped him through a difficult time rather than someone who helped create a difficult time.
I am not sure who to expose to, I do not know her family, she is not M. I have threatened to tell Boss and co-workers (some already know). She told me her mum knows and is not judgemental!!!!!!!
I know she is manipulating my H with her "understanding" and tears but hopefully he'll get sick of it.
H won't block her number and email address or change his he says he just has to be stronger in his conviction and that is what counts, I agree but not sure he can do it.
Thank you all for your input and Rose55 I do not mind your thoughts I am not even judgemental towards you or her just sad for those of us that find ourselves in these hurtful situations.
S

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by arty:
<strong> Do I take his word on face value, as I have numerous times, only to be betrayed and lied to? Or do I keep snooping and questioning his every move - which will irriitate him because 'I am a control freak and take away his privacy'? It seems that I am stuck ina no win situation. Any advice guys?
S </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Arty, no you don't trust an untrustworthy person, that would be insane. He has to EARN trust. NO ONE has the right to the privacy to destroy you behind your back, so tell him that you DAMN WELL intend to protect your interests.

If he is irritated at being caught, then he can start doing things to earn your trust so you DON'T HAVE TO SNOOP anymore. Tell him you are more than a little irritated about being put in this position and don't appreciate it one bit.

Have you exposed the OW? Is she married?

Dear Arty

Please, please expose this A and don’t bother any more with threats. You can’t keep doing the same things and hoping for a different result. Tell her boss. She maybe e-mailing and calling on company time. Also write or speak to her mother. Don’t believe a word she says about her mum not being judgemental. My Hs OW introduced my H to her parents and told them he was separated and that we’d drifted apart long ago. When they found out the truth, they were disgusted with her and insisted they call it off. Of course they didn’t, so I wrote to her parents and filled them in. Seems to have worked this time. They’re sick of the hassle. If OWs mum finds out that both of you are trying to work at this and her daughter won’t allow you to, I can’t imagine that she would be OK about it.

If your H won’t block her number or email, he may as well be telling you he has no intention of stopping contact. You can’t trust his words, only his actions and his inaction is telling you all you need to know. If he was serious about ending it, he’d do these things in a flash. Why wouldn’t he? Perhaps you can hack into his e-mail and block her address yourself. Or better still, redirect her e-mails to your address (if that’s possible). Then you can send them on to her mother each time.

You need to take control of this Arty, you’re H is too fogged up to do anything of substance. Don’t worry about making him angry. You are fighting for your marriage at a time when he just can’t. Don’t rely on him getting fed up with her either. You won’t get anywhere while she’s in the picture, only more frustrated. Also, he seems to be getting a kick out of her attention and is unwilling to lose it. Please don’t leave it too long to push him off the fence. You don’t want to reach the point where you no longer care.

MelodyLane & Horizon,
I agree with you both that his word is nothing to go by and some of his actions have been distructive.
I played around with his phone and can't find how to barr her calls nor do I know enough about internet to do that on my own.
About exposing A - She is not M. I'm not sure her boss wouldn't think I was crazy for telling him - how does it effect him. She also has a very common surname, how would I go about contacting family members? The only option I can think of is to get a PI to follow her until I get some addresses. Is it worth the great expense and do I then look like the crazy one.
I feel that I need to move very carefully to make myself look calm and her crazy. Although he says he has made his decission to stay in M, I know he is still in fog and we are not in recovery. I know he is still not telling me everything although more than before. I am pretty sure he does not initiate the C and would like it to end. He is still scared of being seen as the bad guy ( and is still fond of her) and so won't tell her to p**s off.
What do you think I should do? I am still doing my best at plan A (although I can't say I have perfected the job). I will not rest until I feel he is working as hard as me at recoverying our M. Until the I can't help but snoop and question. But I try to do it calmly without LB in the process.
S