<img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> AND ANOTHER THING THAT REALLY BURNS ME! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Anyone ever notice how frequently the dad/husband is portrayed in popular culture as some bumbling idiot who needs his wife to steer him through life?

Homer Simpson and Tim Taylor come to mind. Or that guy on “Everyone Loves Raymond”

Or how about the defective dad that is hindering the progressive family?

Or watch almost ANY commercial with a family in it. Goofy, unskilled, or clumsy dad makes some ludicrous mistake and the rest of the family, kids included, just smile knowingly with the “that’s just dad” look on their faces.

Don’t believe me? Watch TV tonight and consciously look for this.

And then WE ourselves run around and say how funny the show is, or even make self-deprecating jokes when we fit that typical model.

And our wives tease us in front of our kids when we make a mistake. So do our neighbors. Even our pastors will do it sometimes when they make a joke and say “Can I get a witness, ladies…”

And then we wonder….

Why do kids these days not respect the elderly or even the adults for that matter?

Why are the wives “dragging” the families to church while the husband begrudgingly goes?

Why is society so desensitized to wrongs?

It is because we have taken the HERO out of our kids lives. Yeah, they can still idolize Spiderman, or Neil Armstong, or Michael Jordan, but their REAL LIFE hero is now gone.

We have programmed ourselves to look at dad as “bumbling dad” and we are not outraged by it.

The real life hero has been relegated to the comedic sidekick.

Want to see something amazing, watch the movie “October Sky” and THEN tell me dad shouldn’t be a hero.

NCWalker – apologizing in advance for the tangent.

I don't disagree NC. I read the book "Bringing up Boys" by Dobsen, and he talks a lot about that as well. HOWEVER!!! I think if you REALLY look from ALL perspectives, men and dads are not the ONLY stereotypes you will see. Women, people of different races and colors - have ALL been stereotyped in the name of comedy. How about how all turban wearing men must drive a cab and be clueless, or how any pretty women must be ditzy or slutty. Inappropriate messages are everywhere. Just the other day there was a commercial about M&M cookie bars with kids in it that said "Just a little naughty, and naughty is fun". Great message, huh??

NCW & H4F - I totally agree, there are so many "stereo-typical" situations that we can relate to - we must be careful not to bring our mates down...just because someone in the sitcom says something like our S, we must remember that our S is not really that person. Our big one is "King of Queens" - except that they don't have kids, those two characters are me and my H made over - right down to the sarcasm - and my H is bad to say "she sounds just like you!"

My H and I have had this discussion for years, so maybe you can shed some more light, and help me...it is a HUGE LB for me to say anything derogatory about my spouse in front of anyone. So, for a few years now, I have been very conscious not to do that.

2 questions: (since you can "speak" for the male population)

1. What is a good response if your H is down-right, blatantly, absolutely, obviously, absurdly wrong about something? (Example: my H is convinced that his opinion is the only right one, in certain situation...and sometimes facts are there that he's not aware of)...what can I say the? I've tried everything from correcting him (which he says is treating him like a kid) to the other extreme of rolling my eyes and motioning for whomever he's arguing with to just let him win and shut-up!!!

2. What if the H is comfortable with that? I get the impression that some men like being treated that way?! (Example: I am (almost) solely responsible for running the household - from buying groceries, or cleaning, to dividing up the $$ for bills. Have repeatedly told H I would like for him to take a more active roll, and short of me throwing the checkbook at him and going on strike, he doesn't budge. Says he doesn't like being treated like a kid, but won't take responsibility for ANYTHING!!)

Any advice?

H4F,

I understand there are lots of stereotypes. Take the ditzy blond. But there are also shows that portray the pretty blond as competent and confident. That movie about the blond girl who becomes a lawyer for one.

I can't remember a show since the Cosby Show where a DAD has not been portrayed as either bumbling or incompetent. (As a major character). But I don't watch that many Sitcoms though.

Have seen the commercial you talked about.

Nice message, indeed.

One could say that the advertisers get paid to sell stuff. To me it is akin to paying people to run around and hurt others so the hospitals stay busy. They gotta work too, right? LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I agree NC, but it's just the opposite here in my household. I support my W, but the children don't see her as an equal to me. I'm not sure they're supposed to. Dad lays down the law. Mom plays detective and then dad does the enforcing. I remember "My Three Sons" albeit the memory is mighty fuzzy at this point still I don't recall dad being so bumblingly (word) depicted in past hollywood. Does life imitate art or does art imitate life? NC, I think there are alot more bumbling dads these days and it might be due partly to society's not-so-funny exploitian of core values. TV no longer portrays most dads as wise, probably not much ratings in having dad make good decisions and lead his family in a spiritual, god-fearing manner, but as I recall some of TV's depiction of family had W's playing sub-servient (sp) roles, bystanders who baked cookies all day while gossiping with nosey neighbors. I don't know what worse NC, but I always admired Bill Cosbys role as Heathcliff Huxtable, then I found out in real life Bill has children outside of his M... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I realized Bill Cosby wasn't even Bill Cosby and that's when I threw in the towel on TV dads having an impression on my ideology of what a dad should aspire to be.

"JOHN Q" starring Denzel Washington, now that was a dad!

<small>[ August 06, 2004, 12:50 PM: Message edited by: FamilyMatters ]</small>

While waiting for NCW to type his book to me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I wanted to respond to what you said FM...there are lots of dads willing to take the lesser role. My own dad?? He was my Hero!! Unfortunately, I learned things about him after his death that really turned my stomach, but after a lot, A LOT, of searching and soul searching and crying and more crying, I came to the realization that the man who'd done those bad things wasn't really my dad...My dad was the man who's picture rests on my dresser - the man who raced tricycles with me when I was 4yo (and allowed my mom to take his picture); he was the man who carried me on his shoulders into the water at Daytona because even at 6yo I didn't want to get my hair wet; he was the man who helped me polish my nails when I was a teenager, just so he could steal a few minutes with a daughter that was growing up too fast! He was the man who insisted we have a devotional about the Saviour's birth before opening the first Christmas present; he was the man who made sure mom had help with me, so she could tend to herself - he'd fix breakfast before church, or dinner at the end of a long work day!! I miss that man!!

And I hate the fact that my H does not have that kind of dad to look up to. His mom was the one taking the kids to church while dad stayed at home and got drunk. His dad was the one who let "momma" make sure everything was taken care of, and still does. PTL, he is saved now, but 20+ years - all the crucial years for my H - are lost...sure, he showed my H how to tear down a motor and rebuild it; he taught him how to fix stuff - everything but his relationship with his W and with his God!!

I had a GREAT dad to look up to, and don't get me wrong - my H is a great dad, and I understand personality differences - just sometimes makes me sad that my daughters are not gonna have that same "someone" that I did. I've prayed - continue to pray - for a H that will lead our family spiritually, physically, financially - God hasn't answered yet...though I know He's working on him! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I too wish it wasn't so easy to stereo-type!
and, BTW - I loved D.W. in that movie - GO DAD!!!!!!

<small>[ August 06, 2004, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: YL ]</small>

YL, it sounds like you had a great dad role model. I wish my W had one, she never met her dad and from my understandings he has mental issues. I love the things you described about your dad! I do the dishes, I clean the house, I cook most dinners, I taught my kids to ride their first 2 wheelers and I'm still the major bread winner, though I've hit a rough patch over the last 2 months. Sometimes I feel like I'm stretched too thin. My W's role is somewhat narrow, more like the one who smiles and kisses the boo boos so to speak. Right now that she's in an A and during this entire thing she hasn't been much of anything to anyone, me or the children.

Back to the point of this thread and a question for anyone responding:

Is is the lack of positive family portrayals in media that has caused the rapid increase of failed marriages and broken families or is it the decrease of family values simply a reality of our culture and the media is now just depicting more reality-based programming?

I'm not saying any of us are the Tim Allen bumbling idiot type or the belching, alcoholic Homer Simpson, but in my own personal experience in real life I've met more lousy dads then notable dads and I've had dumb associates who think cheating is no big deal, it's what MEN DO and the only downside is getting caught! When you decide to have high convictions and to walk a certain path it becomes painfully obvious many people chose otherwise and to me that's not TV that's just destructive and selfish thinking.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Geez. I need to stop this and get back to work.

OK YL, here you go.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">1. What is a good response if your H is down-right, blatantly, absolutely, obviously, absurdly wrong about something? (Example: my H is convinced that his opinion is the only right one, in certain situation...and sometimes facts are there that he's not aware of)...what can I say the? I've tried everything from correcting him (which he says is treating him like a kid) to the other extreme of rolling my eyes and motioning for whomever he's arguing with to just let him win and shut-up!!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you are amongst friends, in a social setting, and just goofing on each other that is OK. The key is that it is not done in front of the kids. From Proverbs 31 – “She shall declare his name at the gates..” or something like that.

BUT – and this is a HUGE BUT – HE HAS to be the servant head as well. It does no good if he is saying the “I am the man and I have spoken” (like I do here) in front of the kids. You need to talk to him about the role model he is being for the kids in a loving way. He needs to understand this concept.

Your behavior, in truth, should be to honor him in front of the kids. Regardless. Two wrongs don’t make a right. VERY hard to do, though. Spouses tend to drive each other nuts.

We all have to improve our marriages. And there are lots of things to improve. But you can’t work on ALL of them at once. So pick you battles. If this is a battle you choose to fight with him, you are going to have to come up with a plan TOGETHER and execute it. You do your part and he does his part. Make it a habit.

What if he refuses completely? If he understands the MB concepts he should not. If he does refuse completely, then you have a choice. Are YOU going to do the right thing? By letting your “light shine” you have the best chance (scripturally) of leading him to where he needs to be. If not, you can always leave. Sort of like Plan A and Plan B to a lesser degree.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2. What if the H is comfortable with that? I get the impression that some men like being treated that way?! (Example: I am (almost) solely responsible for running the household - from buying groceries, or cleaning, to dividing up the $$ for bills. Have repeatedly told H I would like for him to take a more active roll, and short of me throwing the checkbook at him and going on strike, he doesn't budge. Says he doesn't like being treated like a kid, but won't take responsibility for ANYTHING!!)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hee hee. Prepare for the lightning to strike. I too, left all the “household operations” to RAP – she is a SAHM. She wanted, probably actually needed, me to take care of the bills. I didn’t want to. I take care of that cr@pola at work and did not want to do it at home. So I just refused to do them. She eventually had to. (Not one of my prouder moments, but we learn and grow). The point is, I had the staying power so she had to do it. Fortunately, I had somewhat of an epiphany and made the conscious choice to take this burden off her, but I am going to have a long haul ahead of me (justifiably) in this area to win her trust.

We knew a couple who faced exactly the same problem with the bills. The wife said to the husband that she was not going to do them anymore and if bad things happened, then they just happened. (Bear in mind, this husband also knew he should be doing them). And that’s what she did. I can’t remember if the electric got cut off or not.

It is a team effort. Get your hubby on board with this. Use the speaker-listener technique and work it out. WHY doesn’t he want to do them? Maybe he really can’t. Is he working two jobs and you one? Maybe he would do them if you had a system he could fall in on. Maybe he doesn’t want to fall in on your system. That was a problem with RAP and I. She wanted me to do them, but do them her way. I don’t normally do things her way. (Her way is not wrong, just different).

One more comment, I will quote you again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I get the impression that some men like being treated that way?!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Who wouldn’t. If by “that way” you mean every time I drop a ball, you will always be there to pick it up. Let the ball fall. Will be a big wake-up call for him. Don’t believe me? How many FS here have said the A was a “wake-up” call for the condition of the marriage? You are not letting the ball fall because YOU do not want to face the repercussions of it falling. But not facing those repercussions INCLUDES him continuing in his habits. If you can’t explain to him rationally and lovingly that he needs to do this because he won’t listen (after your careful self-examination that you are NOT LBing him over this), you just might have to let a ball fall. Better one now than the marriage when YOU reach your breaking point. Have you told him that?

NCW

PS – FamilyMatters, I would agree “John Q” is a good example of a father. Would be wary of trying that myself though, end of the movie hinged on a corporation having compassion. Not likely.

FM - some one once told me: Opinions are like armpits - everyone has a couple, and sometimes they stink!

Having gotten that out of the way, here's my opinion:

Our world is spiralling (?sp) downward, and fast. It is too easy to see how today is so easily comparable to Sodom and Gomorah, and "Noah's day". I think America lost a lot when they took formal prayer out of schools. And, I believe that the "one-eyed monster", as the "boob-tube" was so lovingly referred to in the early days, has a lot to do with not only how we view each other, but also how we view ourselves. Satan has found an awesome, and very attractive, decoy to get out his message. And, no, I'm not some nut or overtly religious person who doesn't believe in "all that" - we have a tv in our house, in fact, we're blessed (haha) we've got 5 of them!! BUT, one of the best things I've ever done for our family was to disconnect the cable. It's much easier to police what my family is being taught, and also easier to get family time together - it use to be no big deal for everybody to sit together and watch a movie, cuz nobody wanted to - now it is, and we (H and I) can pick the movie based on what values our family needs reinforcing at the time...not just what's on HBO, or even "Nick"!

Also, I do think the lack of positive role models does drastically influence how our children will view us, and how they'll act when in our shoes! (My FILs favorite thing to watch, and always has been, a western. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but too much of "ok woman, get me my drink, take of my shoes, and where's my dinner" and they start to act like Fred Flinstone, and treat their Ws like Wilma.) I truly wish there were more positive shows for the kids to watch.

How about the music videos???? I've got a neice (8yo) that runs around the house, Wally-world, wherever, singing "Save a Horse, Ride a Cowboy" - What?!?!?!?!?!!?! I don't even want my 12yo watchin/listin to/singing that and she (12yo) is more likely to understand it...there's another problem, not only do they imitate it - they don't even know what they're doing is wrong! Now, how wrong is that??!!

OK, just my vho <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> YL

Nice comment about the book. Look, I am trying to WORK AT MY JOB here.

RAP will never let me live that down. Thanks.

YL - OFF the help list. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I think a big contributor to "spiraling down" is the neighborhood/community itself.

Gone are the days where you lived in one house for 50 years and KNEW your neighbors.

Somewhere, men have lost accountability to each other. We don't seek it and we are too afraid to hold each other accountable everywhere but at work and only for what we do at work.

We just don't know our neighbors anymore. And it shows.

OK, lost a book, I mean, post of my own - but in a nut shell, it said this:

I've never thought of it as enabling, just cya, or in this case, cha (his), maybe if it's something not affecting the household, I may just try that.

As for the neighborhood/community thing I don't think there is any accountability - I don't know what my H was telling his former co-workers about why he left the company, but I sure got a lot of those "you poor thing" looks, and a few of our former friends/acquaintenances will only talk to him if I'm not around, as soon as I walk up, they walk away! No accountability there, I'm sure! In fact, a friend of his/ours was sitting in our living room one night (before I knew what I now know) and we had been talking about a guy that cheated on his wife, I made the statement, "Well, if you ever find out that "H" is cheating on me, you'd BETTER beat a fast path to my door - I DO NOT want to be the last one to know!" - all the laughter stopped, and he excused himself, faked a phone call on his cell, and left. Surely, no accountability there!

OK, go back to work - I'm leaving my office now!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

edited to add: Before you all think H is a lousy role model - he really didn't have anyone to show him, but he's learning...in fact he did something that 'bout knocked me off my seat!! (he got this from his brother, but WHO CARES!!! it's great, and made me feel good too!!)...one of our nephews was giving me a hard time and shooting lots of dirty looks when I told him to pick up his toys...hubby said to him, "Look, she might be your Aunt, but that lady is my WIFE!! and nobody talks or looks at my wife like that - now go do what she said!" (Major love bank deposits there <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> - GO HUBBY!!")

<small>[ August 06, 2004, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: YL ]</small>