Atta girl. I am very hopeful for your marriage. And remember, the longer your husband stays with you, the more likely OW will give up and find somebody else. That can only be good.

FIM
Next time he says that you can't fight the divorce because you "promised" that you wouldn't, remind him that before God he promised to be true to his marriage vows and forsake all others. Amazing isn't it...

I honestly don't know how you've kept up Plan A this long. I know you must be frustrated beyond words can describe and can completely understand the temptation to tell him to hit the road.

I wonder if the trip to the court house is nothing more than an appeasement to owchild...a way to keep her hanging on just in case. Cakeman.

I remember those days when you know there's contact and there's nothing that can be done about it. It's maddening! I heard, "I don't want to marry her, I just want to date her." She's was/is married with at the time a toddler that they used to occasionally take on their "dates" to throw off her husband. Who in their right mind would take their son on a date with a married man? Now both of their lives are in the toliet.

I admire your convictions and ability to stay on task. He's a fortunate man who doesn't have a clue how blessed he is. Sigh....

Thanks for the support guys! It's been the counseling and this board that have kept me sane. Well, sane may be a strong word actually <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> It's kept me going though.

I just have to get this one out. A small drawback to having WH read SAA.... he's thinking that Plan B might be [here comes the sarcastic voice again!] just what he needs. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Yeah! Maybe he needs to see if she CAN meet all his EN. That REALLY could be what he needs to realize what he really wants and needs is me. [end sarcastic voice]

Boy, oh boy, do they see what they want to see in things, or what?!?!

I suggested he maybe go back and read some of the book over. Plan B is NOT about going back and forth and seeing how long you can play around.

If I thought that wasn't what he is thinking, well...I wouldn't wanna SMACK him right now.

That's what's going through that brain of his right now though. "Cool! I can stay here a while, go down and see how things work out with her and if I want to come back, I can."

I'm smiling though <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Understanding, smiling and envisioning his head popping off those shoulders from all the hot air filling it!

Other than that, he didn't go to the courthouse today. He thinks he'll put it off since it won't do him any good right now anyway. He keeps asking if I will go along with things if I realize that things really won't work out.

So, I smile and tell him that I can't imagine anything that would take away my faith that we can work through whatever comes and that I know he wants the best, and he will realize he he has that in me. (That one is from Steve <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

He is still here though. He doesn't have a court date. And we'll just see who has more stubborn staying power.

FIM-

I'm so proud of you! Hang in there. Your WH is deceived and will wake up at some point. The longer you stall the more chance he will poke his pointed little head above the fog for a moment and realize "What the heck am I doing?"

That's when it really gets fun. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I am jealous that my W doesn't have your attitude.

2scared

Faith, he is going to thank you someday. He will wake up and see the truth, but it does take some time. I hope the child OW is staying away.

Irish-hope he's Catholic-nothing like the guilt of being Catholic-if he is, it will get to him over time.

In a few years he'll be hugging you tight thinking of what a fool he was and praying that you have enough love left for him. Remember-You are doing this for the kids most of all. You have to fight with all your might to keep your family intact. He will be greatful-my H looks at me sometimes and I see the look of Oh my God-what was I thinking. Yours will get there too. He's classic MLC compounded by the fear of dying in war compounded by the fact that he was isolated from his family. It will just take a little time. Hand in there. Hugs-Jersey Girl

The way I see it right now.... the biggest potential threat is YOU faithinme!

Your strength is what is holding this M together right now.... so stay strong. Don't let your pride take over. Don't allow your sense of "injustice" and "it's not fair" rule your choices.

NO, it is most certainly NOT fair.... but it is what it is... a struggle.

I am sooooo happy you told WH that you will fight the divorce.... now THAT is standing up for your marriage and for your MAN!

Pep

amen

PS.... WH will probably tell OW that "wife" is going to fight a divorce tooth and nail...

OW will go .... "hmmmmmmmmmm?"

an extra added bonus! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep

Wow, you are doing so FANTASTIC in Plan A...stagnant, yes. The seeds that SH and you are sowing will reap someday.

So what about Plan B? Has SH mentioned it to you at all? I know it seems to come as a last resort, but it's useful when the WS can't make up their mind. WH is right, maybe it's just what he needs.

My FWH was anxious to get out of the house, to move out, to live his life the way he wanted to. We talked about a trial separation...then I found this site. I started a Plan A, he sent a NC email and life was good...yeah right...he got surlier and angrier as the days wore on until I couldn't take it anymore, I asked him to leave.

In the past I had talked with him about a trial separation, live apart for a few months. he moved form his parents house into our house and never lived on his own...thought he could learn from it, but he never thought it was a good idea.

The day after I asked him to leave he had cleaned out ALL his clothes and was set up in an apt...I guess he had planned this for awhile. It was time for Plan B, I new contact would begin (and what I found out later was that contact hadn't stopped.)

Plan B was what we needed right then. I had nothing further to do with him...no more hugs or gentle words, he had to be satisfied throwing himself into emails, dates, and IMing with the OW, and "She wasn't what I thought she was." He was miserable, in a rathole of an apt that was MUCH trashier than our house (having a clean house was a top need of his) and no SF with this wife. Living alone he got more and more depressed. It was a week or two into the move that I gave him a PROPER Plan B letter (had tried other versions but they didn't come out right) in which I spelled out EXACTLY what he would need to come back home. He resented being told what to do. I explained that it wasn't my choice. I would live with whatever he decided. He said he would do it...

It was a month later after he fulfilled most of the conditions (honesty and accountability were ongoing) that I asked him to move back home and recovery started.

I don't think we could have started recovery...and a TRUE recovery without a Plan B. And I don't necessarily think it was my choice, he had planned to move out. He needed to have this chance to see what life was like as an XH.

You may not have the choice of whether you want to Plan B or not. He may move out anyway (Yeah FIM, the only job I could find is in San Antonio). Be prepared, work on your letter, an intermediary, what you will need when he returns.

The WS thinks they can just come back after they have their fling...Plan B spells out that they are NOT welcome back until they are truly committed to the M and each BS had a different set of criteria for what it will take to prove they are committed.

Each A may very a bit. In my H's most serious 'Love', 'Soulmate', "we connected" A it took my H finally moving in with OW (and her 3 kids) and letting her fill all his EN's for him to be able to finally end it after a month or so of that. We had already had a couple of false recoveries the last one a year or so before where he had moved into an apartment that OW cleaned for him. OW did his laundry too.

I didn't let him move right back in. He stayed at his business partner and wife's house for another 2 months. Received IC, recommited to the Lord, joined the church choir...We did some MC. But he still didn't really get the bounderies thing and what he had to do to avoid further A's. We did have a wonderful honeymoon phase after that..but I would LB occasionally mainly from triggers. He thought I'd never let really get over it.

The next A with a different woman...3 yrs after we renewed our vows...that one lasted 8 months...he succumbed to temptation...(she initially pursued) thought he could keep it a secret 'innocent' friendship..EA but then fell in love and she started to pressure him to end his marriage. He says they had sex 2x within a month before D-Day and it wasn't good. I found MB website and plan A'd. I also told him he needed to make a choice. He was free to go. We'd split up the household. I was calm and level...(but tired of it all). A few of weeks post D-Day he was willing to go NC and end the A. We saw a therapist. We have been in recovery since. We went to MB weekend within three months or so.

I think he gets it this time...but time will tell.

Your H may need to go to SA and play it out. I hope he doesn't. If he does, it still may not be the end..that would be up to you and your level of patience. I would think he is still in some contact with OW, but maybe not It would be great if she would get a chance to LB instead of you. He may still be afraid to lose her.

Keep being your best.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2scared:
<strong> I am jealous that my W doesn't have your attitude. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And I am jealous my WH doesn't have YOUR attitude!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Originally posted by new jersey:
<strong>Irish-hope he's Catholic-nothing like the guilt of being Catholic-if he is, it will get to him over time. </strong> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm Irish Catholic. He comes from a Latin America Catholic family. The guilt will eat at him. The first thing his mom asked him to do was go see a priest. The old time hispanic catholic moms are great for reminding their sons about their responsibilities.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Originally posted by pepperband:
<strong> The way I see it right now.... the biggest potential threat is YOU faithinme! </strong> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're right. And that's a bit scary. I'll see it through though. If this ends, it will have to be HIS actions that end it and HIS actions he has to live with.


Right now, I know he is talking with OW. It turns out he has been talking with her since the day he came back. The cell records show he talks to her on average about an hour a day over 5-10 conversations per day. The most in a day, 2 1/2 hours.

This from a man who would tell me how hard it was on him to be having NC with OW. JERK!

SH has said to just deal with it right now since we are in couseling. He's not a the point to make a decision yet and since we are in counseling, let that have time to work.

I'm surprised at the fact that I'm doing that with relative ease right now. It bothers me and upsets me, but not to the degree it could. I guess because I expect it to be happening.

As for a PLAN B? I'm not sure how that would play out. I honestly don't believe I can take him back if he leaves for San Antonio, AGAIN. So, I don't know what a Plan B would entail or when exactly I would implement it. SH hasn't even touched on that happening right now since we are trying to still find a 'roadmap' to falling back in love.

So, for right now, I'm not looking at Plan B. If he decides to go, it would take a few weeks for him to actually do it. I'll cross that bridge when I come to it or if SH recommends it. For now, I'm in Plan A and hoping that the longer he is here, the harder it will be for him to go.

<small>[ September 29, 2004, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: faithinme ]</small>

After I wrote all of that ^ up there, he came by to bring me lunch. Then he tells me that he has decided to not go down to the courthouse at least for this week. So, now I know we're safe...until Monday. Jeez.

He's still bringing up the whole, "If I do leave, you'll be civil about it, right?"

Um. Nope.

"You'll know I at least tried."

Um. Nope.

I told him that I might be able to let it go if we didn't have hope or if we had not discovered a way to make things better than they were. But as long as we have not exhausted all possibilities and hope...which we haven't since he has not committed to me or this marriage yet by ending the A to truly work on it.... I won't believe a divorce is needed and will not participate in it.

So he says, "I just don't know that I'm willing to work on it that way."

"EXACTLY. It's not that we can't make this better. It is about your willingness at this point. You are so right. I'm so glad that you understand that! So, since we know we have a way to make it better, the sooner we start, the sooner we can move past this and start recovering."

I think it hit home for about five seconds before he put up his titanium logic blocker deflector shield.

All I can hope is that it will pop into his head every now and then. The more he realizes he is making a decision to abandon his wife and children and future for no reason except to pursue something that doesn't hold a candle to what he has, the better our chances.

I know his OW has said that children will be allright when their parents divorce (didn't you note that way back on one of the first pages?!)

Have you discussed with your H how he treats you will show his daughters the type of treatment they can get from a man? If he leaves you for OW, they will be abandoned along with the woman who they look up to and identify with most in this world (even if daddy 'keeps in touch')

He is playing with the stakes of his daughters world view and self-esteem.

picklesaresour -

We have had that discussion. We've talked about the girls basing their expectations for men and relationships on their father and the way he treats me. We've talked about the way they will come to view marriage and its importance.

I've tried to talk with him about security, love, self-esteem and other life issues being affected by a divorce.

I've also talked to him about the example he is setting as a man for his son.

It gets through....while we are discussing it.

Then he talks with her again and it's gone.

I have a feeling though that all of these things swirl around his head more than he lets on and that one day they will all simply be too much to continue to put aside and finally help to dispel that fog.

I hope.

FIM-

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It gets through....while we are discussing it.

Then he talks with her again and it's gone.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No it's not. Trust me...it's still there eating at him. He try's to make it go away, but it doesn't. It might disapear while he is with her...but when he's alone, it eats at him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have a feeling though that all of these things swirl around his head more than he lets on and that one day they will all simply be too much to continue to put aside and finally help to dispel that fog.

I hope.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh Yeah... It's swirling. The fog is thick but you're doing good. I'm seeing cracks in the wall. He's going to poke his little head out of the fog every now and then... and then...Poof. The aliens will vomit out this half human remains that resemble your WH. He will stink and look like crap...but the fog will begin to lift.

Oh yeah... Fog puke. Gosh it's so cool when it happens.

Hang in there FIM. I believe!!!!!!

2scared

Dear FiM -- Hang in there. I know it sounds like he thinks he's doing you a favor by not filing anything this week. How thoughtful.

Does he know you know that he's had daily contact w/OW? If not, you may sweetly let him know that of course you know, and while you're not suprised, that you understand that this is obviously the reason why your marriage isn't improving as quickly as it should be and why you just can't see agreeing to let go when you know that the two of you haven't given it a fair shot without her in the picture.

His children and your children need to know that you've both done absolutely everything in your power to make this marriage work before traumatizing them for life by breaking up their home and him leaving you for another woman. And tell him to make no mistake -- it WILL affect and tramautize them. WS so often minimize that. Tell him to ask any of his adult friends who come from a broken home and the effects of their parents' divorce on them. I don't have any friends who says it was clear sailing.

Hang in there! Even with her still in the picture, keep chipping away. So glad to see you're still so strong! I wish more of us were like you.

Shellybird

What i have said to my FWH before:

"Would you want your DD to M a man like you?"

If the answer is No, then I ask:

"Would you become the kind of man you would want your DD to M?"

I also tell him very postive and hopeful things, like:

"I see such goodness and a wonderful man, but I get sad and distressed when I see you do things that don't match the great person I know you are."

Now is THat a backwards compliment...

He's so typical. I know it's OK in the Latin culture...raised in a latin culture myself and Dad was a cheater...funny I should choose one myself...hum. Yes it does affect the kids.

I figured he was in contact. She's going to try and show up when he starts moving closer to tell her to bug off. This is moving in the right direction. Hass to expolde and OW is putting up with more because shes young. The fog is thick because he keeps adding to it. Hang in there. By the way, Latin men get VERY jealous.

I'm Latina and I hope we can refrain from saying that As are OK in our culture. You could say this kind of thinking is "okay" in many cultures, but it's not really needed and doesn't serve anyone.

But, yes, the whole shame/guilt thing can work on a Latino Catholic. FWS had some kind of spiritual breakdown and feels like a new person in our recovery. I'm not so religious myself, but if it helps in rebuilding our M, I'll be in Church every Sunday.

I'm afraid I don't know your story, faithinme. How long have you been in Plan A? I had to endure it for 4 1/2 months. I don't wish that on my worst enemy (okay, maybe just the OW). Just want to let you know that your WS sounds just like mine did.

Have you tried Retrouvaille? Even though it didn't end the A, it gave *me* hope to continue Plan A.

I'm so glad you are in counseling with SH. I wish I had that opportunity. And my FWS agrees with him now: his best chance for happiness is with me.

And oh yes, during Plan A the OW is wondering why WS is staying if the M was so horrible and OW is his soulmate. It puts doubts in her mind as well.

I think your Plan A is working. He is not sure he is doing the right thing by having the A. It very clear from his reluctance to file for a divorce.

I don't know about the Latino culture aspect of this. I'm not Latino. But, I can tell you my WH can't put this on anything having to do with his upbringing or culture.

Both of his parents were born in Guatemala. His father moved here as a young man and joined the military. He met my MIL when they were seated on a plane together. She had visited a sister in the states and was going home, he was going to visit his family. They barely spoke on the plane. He asked if he could visit her home to see her after they landed. They were engaged a week later and he left for the States again. They didn't see each other again for almost a year, until the week before the wedding. They had three children, moved around the world for his military career and when my husband was 15, moved back to Guatemala. My FIL died March 9, 2003 just shy of his 40 year wedding anniversary. He was truly one of the most upstanding men I have heard of in my life, let alone known. His commitment to God and family should have been a shining example to my WH. I know it eats at him though.

I have never met a man as great as my late father-in-law. I believe he would be shamed by the conduct of his son, and my WH knows that. He is aware that he is shaming not only his fathers memory, but his entire family. There is no example in his life to be taking this avenue.

His mother has said, flat out, she will not attend any wedding or even his home should he divorce me. His sister and brother will also shun him. This is just not acceptable to them....in any way, shape, or form. They really do look at it as tainting the family name and his fathers memory.

What is Retrouvaille?

I do believe he is reluctant and that Plan A is working. I have been doing it now since Aug. 8th, with a couple of short lived detours along the way.

He has filed for divorce though. In a nutshell, he was a reservist who was deployed last Sept. (2003) while I was six months pregnant. He came home, still totally in love and impatient to get home to his family, for 8 days for the birth of our son on Jan. 2. Then, in late Feb./early March started an A with a girl (she's 22, he's 30)he was deployed with. He called me May 13 to tell me he didn't think marriage was for him and wanted a divorce. One month later I found out about the A.

He came home to visit for 1 week in July, filed for divorce, and went to visit OW for another week (after not having seen his kids, newborn, or wife for 6 months).

She had left their duty station 2 weeks before his visit home. He then came home on Aug. 8th to "see if we could work on things", but on Aug. 9th told me he didn't want to work on anything, LYBNILWY, blah, blah. As it turned out, OW had flown to see him while he was debriefing on his way home for a few days.

So, his plan on Aug. 9 was to stay here until Sept. 15th, go to live with her out of state and then come back here Oct. 6th for a divorce. He did go see her under the pretense of a job interview on Sept. 30th for 6 days.

Currently, he's here. We are working on things. He goes back and forth and is still in daily phone contact with her. He has not gone to the courthouse to obtain an actual date for a divorce proceeding, although he could have on Sept. 21. He may next week or the week after, who knows. He's still on the fence and doesn't know what he wants to do.

Time will tell.