Wow! I think that's the shortest reply you've ever had!! Congrats!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Ok, honestly - NCW - my post was in no way meant to be a 2x4!! Honest!!! Just, from your other posts, I was really thinking this was what you wanted to hear - more so, what you needed to hear! I truly hope it helps!! shoot, I was saying it to me as much as to you!! I needed to "hear" it too!

Praying for you and your strength, and your family!! {{{NCW&RAP}}}

NCW, I'm glad to hear you don't want to accommodate RAP's wish for OMW not to know any longer, but you still seem a little uncertain.

I must not understand the circumstances, because it still seems to me it should have happened long ago. I have the impression it's all about protecting OM and protecting RAP from feeling embarrassed in the community. What about protecting NCW and OMW? What about humility? RAP seems to say I'm no good, I'm rotten, but I sense she still has all this pride that is her #1 reason for not wanting OMW to know. She needs to reject pride and embrace humility. To me, humility is one of the most valuable things that religion teaches. RAP needs to drop to her knees and seek redemption, no matter who might be watching.

Bottom line, if RAP is willing to leave you over the question of whether or not OMW knows, then her brains must have fallen out of her nose. It's time for her to make a statement, to take a stand or be released.

I like "If you love something, cut it loose" much better too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Good luck with whatever happens next! I do hope it works out for you two.

GC

GrayCloud,

You are right. I have "heard" sorry, but I haven't "seen" sorry. I'm not talking doing things for me, or SF, or that stuff. I am talking reaching out and taking some pain to prevent me from having some. THAT says I love you and am interested in the marriage working. She just doesn't seem to have it in her. She has been in the "fog" since I have come back from overseas. She is breaching NC. She did again this morning to "warn" OM that I was trying to get in touch with him again.

She actually apologized to the b@st@rd for how I acted when I confronted him. I was nothing but civil and simply made it clear he was to stay away from her. I didn't raise my voice. I was cool as a cucumber. She risked hurting me to apologize to a man not fit to drink my toilet water for something she ASSUMED I did. So where is her heart?

YL is right. We have to walk in peace. We have to be humble. We have to be meek. But that doesn't preclude standing up for what is right. Scripturally, we are to turn the other cheek. I wonder - does that entail taking another blow, or does that mean move on. I would like to study the Hebrew/Greek on this and see in the context of the day what that means.

NCW

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She actually apologized to the b@st@rd for how I acted when I confronted him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would ask you where you find your patience and your courage, but I already know where.

I'm so sorry for what you're enduring.

I also believe you've done more than your fair share, I believe it's your way or the highway. RAP isn't obviously in a place she can think or feel objectively.

No more Mr. Nice Guy.

I hope you emailed Pep....whatever advise Pep gives...is pretty much right on target.

NCW, please know, no matter what, you are in our prayers. I hope everything works out one way or another.

NC...

I remember when you told me you would give anything to be in my position I was in.

I truly thought you were just trying to cheer me up.

What advice can I possibly give to a man who helped me walk back in to the light of my Wife and family.
you know how weak I was. It feels like I am a student trying to instruct the teacher.
I dont know why but I have a picture in my head of you and RAP. Rap is in the house peaking out of the window,, you and your children are on the front lawn,,, you are standing guard over your family.
So what motivation can I give to a man who has (and still continues) to be trampled on?
Neitche says "even the strongest of men have thier moments of fatigue." Man you have to be so fatigued. I would have broke a while back.
From your words it sounds like you are cracked but not broke.

I really guess the best thing I can say to you is "I am sorry" I know you are not a man who welcomes pitty but I am truly at a loss for anything else to say.
May God bless

NC, sorry you’re going through this but also not at all surprised. You’ve talked about words vs actions in terms of RAP. You know now that she’s not the only one who should take some action. You did neglect to do your part.

That said, get it done, put a stop to this nonsense once and for all. TODAY. TONIGHT. Do not wait any longer! Set the meeting up, no more RAP mollycoddling. Get in the driver’s seat and DRIVE. How many more "walks" is she going to take, how many more phone calls is she going to make to OM before you do?

Have you completely forgotten that Jesus said the truth shall set you free? I know this was not what he was referring to but it certainly applies. The OM’s wife can ONLY take care of her house after she HAS the truth, once she does you can begin to take care of yours.

Also NC, would you please, please stop trying to rationalize, explain, and continue to make excuses for RAP, you’ve done it even throughout this thread. Stop it! You don’t need to defend or explain why she’s doing what she is doing.

She’s acting exactly like a WS acts in the fog and that’s that. Your inaction towards exposure unfortunately contributed to this going on longer than it would have if you had followed MB advice to expose.

BTW, the question of “moving on” is totally premature until you do YOUR part. You’re jumping the gun here if you haven’t even done all the basics. EXPOSURE IS A MAJOR BASIC.

No more excuses, no more hiding behind the “Christian“ thing. There is nothing Christian about keeping that kind of secret from someone whose life is impacted by it, no matter which side of the fence you’re on.

There are NO shortcuts in recovery, NC. I think you have now found this out the hard way but now is your chance to pull up your bootstraps and really have a real chance at full on recovery.

Less words NC, more action, ok? You CAN do this, you NEED to do this if you at all expect or want your marriage to survive. Sorry if this comes off as frustrated but I'm starting to get black and blue marks on my forehead! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I just KNOW you can do better. I am pulling for you both, KB

Call OMW, set up a time in a public place to meet, accompany RAP, and have her confess.

It's the right thing to do.

PS ... if RAP won't go along, do this yourself.

It's time this affair was completely out in the open.

I don't think you have a chance without complete exposure. RAP's fog may very well lift with exposure. It can often work that way.

You do this with love to save your marriage. This is not a vindictive act, but a loving consequence delivered by a loving husband.

Pep

BetrayedInJersey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I also believe you've done more than your fair share, I believe it's your way or the highway. RAP isn't obviously in a place she can think or feel objectively.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are correct about RAP. She is very confused. She also put herself in that situation. Robby13 (WAY above) had an excellent point about an addict and I sort of cowed him. YL skirted an important point as well – being Spirit led. That means acting like Christ in any situation. You seem to think I have done more than my fair share, I have not. I spit in my wife’s face last night I was so angry. Christ like? No.

I was prideful and haughty with her today. How do you think she feels towards me after last night? Justified or not, she does not feel too kindly towards me. I feel like she has satisfied her whims at the expense of my heart. She wanted to talk to him again, risking great pain in me, to essentially satisfy her own curiosity. Do you know what I told her today? I said – “I don’t care how you feel, you have the kids down by 9 pm, pick out something ‘nice’ to wear and some music because you are going to dance for me tonight.” I said that to hurt her. I said that to show her what the receiving end of what she has done to me feels like. She needed to hurt. How Christ-like is that? Is that my fair share? I had another opportunity to reach out in love and I blew it. Why? Because I was angry and I wanted her to hurt. That is selfish. What did it accomplish? I have actually posted that to someone somewhere. What did my anger accomplish? Beyond bringing her to tears. It actually was an excellent example of what her betrayal felt like – her whimsical needs above my feelings. But did it witness to her? No. Will she change her behavior because of this? No. I made a choice to put a wedge between us. Hurtful, shameful, retaliatory.

Please. No pedestals for me. I am sure there are quiet lurkers out there who would have refrained from essentially tormenting their spouses. I just post and am held in regard for it. I try my best. I failed today. Miserably. All both my wife and I accomplished was adding more cr@p to forgive to an already bad situation.

Sure. She is going to have to earn some “stuff” back from me. But I am going to earn some stuff back to her to. Because of my choices. I will only “quit” when I feel like I have done my best. I haven’t yet.

“No more Mr. Nice Guy” probably should have read “Why weren’t you Mr. Nice Guy.” <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

eric n.: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> you know how weak I was. It feels like I am a student trying to instruct the teacher.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">INSTRUCT AWAY. That is the great thing about God. He can use ANYONE. Why not Eric N.?? He can. I have my greatest successes with the Lord when I look in unlikely places. And don’t take that to mean that you are unlikely as a teacher, I mean that in the sense that you should not be surprised that you can. Know what your best lesson is? You appear to be on your way as a success story. Keep it up.

Knewbetter and Pepperband:
You both have pulled the rug out of every reason I could give not to tell. I love her and don’t want her to feel the shame of being the new mom in school that, oh by the way, screwed the husband of this nice mom over here. (I have not met OMW, but by all accounts, she is a very nice woman). (An aside – do nice people finish last? Sure feels that way). I don’t know why my reluctance. Maybe I am buying in to RAP telling me it will really be over and I am all hot air and afraid to act. I am wrestling with what would serve MY recovery and I don’t see that it would. But I say that with egg on my face, as she DID contact him again knowing what it would do to me. Her gamble was that I would find out, and she lost. I am struggling mightily with the fact that she made the gamble at all.

I guess I am holding out because I need a sign from her that she can put me first. And her telling of her own accord is about the last opportunity she has to do so. Is that wrong? What happened to unconditional love? Why should I require a sign? We all say that love is a choice. So I either choose to love her no matter what, or I don’t. I, too, said a vow. Please answer me. Is “needing a sign” from her wrong? I just don’t know. If it is, this is probably the last shot she will get. Can I look at her and say “Honey, it has been lie, lie, lie by your actions. SHOW ME.” Is THAT Christ like? I mean, if she loves me, she should do what I ask out of love. I don’t think she will. She would do it, but this “seed of resentment” would be there. She would say I am doing to be vengeful and hurtful towards OM. And part of me right now wants to be, I was so easily vengeful and hurtful towards her. There is no go reason for that behavior. I can preach the message, but fail in the execution.

I am not mollycoddling anymore. I am mentally ready for this marriage to be over. I am spiritually ready for it to be over. That is not my desire or wish. I am just saying I am ready to deal with it. I think the ball is in her court. Her actions have been contrary to expressing love. Not entirely true. She has made attempts. But then she has these negative actions that so eclipse the good she has done, it is as if she never did the good. But I have done the same. I mean, she looked at me with indignation that I would dare call the OM last night. Really, a wrong response on her part and I spit in her face. I could have done 100 other things. Like walked away. I chose the hurtful route. I have to be sure that is not the path I am on in telling the OMW. Right now, only she could tell without it being hurtful because she cares FOR the OM. But she won’t. For exactly the same reason. How can you do this and not have it be with a vengeful or hurtful reason? Please tell me. I am really struggling. I was ready to tell this morning. To make her. Now I am not sure because of how I behaved.

NCWalker

PS - Please don’t be disappointed. I am not saying I will not tell. It will probably come down to she tells or I go. I just don’t know. I will probably end up just disappointing everyone. Strong words of agreement with Top Rope higher in the thread. Where are they now?

NC and RAP -

I am so sorry to hear what happened. Of course RAP feels even worse now. And she was feeling bad enough before. Please tell her I am praying for her. I know she must feel horrible. Another would be Proverbs 31 woman detoured.

However I do have a warning for you NC. I know you love RAP and your family and want to stay together. But if you are like me, the constant relapses will make you start losing your love for RAP.

My WH told me over and over that he would not see OW anymore. Then he continued to break my heart over and over again. I stayed strong in my love for a long time, but it started getting less and less. Now I don't think of him at all.

And even if he did come back and was telling the truth this time, I would not believe him. It is very sad, but my trust is completely gone.

So I hope that you will find a way to make contact impossible for RAP. As long as she is nearby him, the temptation will always be there. Is there anyway that you could move to a different (far away) area?

Please tell RAP I suggested that. And it is because I care about her. I'm afraid that if this goes on much longer that you will lose your love for her. And that would be very sad for her and your boys.

<small>[ August 09, 2004, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: believer ]</small>

ncwalker, I don't think she can put you first until contact really does end and she withdraws from the OM. That will happen when contact really ends and there is NO HOPE of future contact.

I think that by not telling the OMW, you have made it easy for RAP to continue seeing him and to continue the fantasy by holding out hope for future contact.

On the other hand, exposure would have been the shocking slap that would have put an end to this a long time ago. I suspect that the humiliation of exposure alone would do that.

Your W does not want to have to face the OMW and look at the consequences of her actions. By protecting her from this, you have all but enabled the fantasy and prolonged this thing.

I think it would be an act of love to go tell the OMW yourself and cut off that path. That way you protect yourself from potential future contact and expose RAP to the ugly consequences of her chosen behavior.

If the OMW knows about the affair, I think RAP will be much less likely to contact him and stop holding out hope for future contact. You say that you wanted to protect her from humiliation, nc, and I can understand that, but is that really the compassionate thing to do? Maybe she SHOULD be humiliated for her actions? Maybe that is the best medicine? To just let her suffer the consequences of her actions.

As an addict, I can only tell you that for me exposure [of my drinking problem] was a blessing from God that changed my heart. It was damn hard at first, but it motivated me to really change and get honest with myself. My pain and humiliation were DRIVING factors for change - I desperately NEEDED to regain self respect and I so wanted to prove to myself that I could be respected. I so wanted to look in the mirror and not feel revulsion anymore, so I was willing to do what it took to restore myself. Please don't deny her of that gift from God by protecting her from all this. It will only work against you and her. It IS working against you NOW!

I don't think you should demand that she tell the OMW herself right now. I think YOU should go tell her alone. It is just too much for your W at this point. If you DEMAND she do this, all you really do is warn her of your intentions and give her a chance to call the OM and warn him. Or even worse. force her to run. If you just go tell the OMW without warning, she just has to deal with it after the fact. It will already be done so there is NO reason to run.

I say call the woman up and tell her the truth. Get it over with, nc. Protect your interests and help ensure that contact ends. If you are in contact with the OMW, you can help each other make sure this all stops. I also seriously doubt that the OMW wants to hear this from your W. Granted, your W owes her a face to face apology and she can do that some day. But please wait until she is OVER her addiction and the OMW is over the initial shock of the betrayal. It is just an awful lot to ask RAP to bust herself in this state of mind.

<small>[ August 09, 2004, 06:13 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

NCW - just another point of view - hope this helps - You mentioned in an earlier post - something to effect of "how's that for Christ-like love?" - I know I'm pulling your statement a little out of it's context, but in general, it appears that you have basically given a Christ-like love. You've forgiven her many times. And, now you're trying to forgive her again. How about anger? That's not necessarily not a Christ-like response. How about His reaction to the money-changers in the Temple? He was furious!! These men were defiling (?sp) His Holy Place!! This affair is defiling your marriage!! How much closer to God can you get than within the sanctity of marriage?

Secondly - as for the Greek/Hebrew/Latin for the day regarding husbands and wives - my understanding (please feel free to research it further) is that this was more to show where the woman stood with her husband - not in front of or behind, but beside. (God chose the rib on purpose, but that's another lesson! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) All I was trying to point out, is that she may be 1 forgiveness away from "eternal life" i.e. "eternal marriage".

However, I must agree with the others - she's put you through hell, and continues to do so, I would expose! Not to put her through the same hell, but to end this for good. How many people, after being made to publicly apologize for something have reverted to that same behavior? Not many indeed!! I'm not saying put her out with a scarlett letter on her chest - I'm simply saying tell the OMW...sure, she'll be enraged, but likely, she will be just as embarrassed that she couldn't keep her man at home. I for one was terribly embarrassed to find out that my H was having an EA, and that it was quickly progressing to PA. Thank God he woke up and realize what he was about to loose! But the idea that all the people he worked with knew, and yet no one told me. And to top it off, they surely thought I couldn't keep him happy - otherwise why would he stray!?? Well, truth was, when he strayed, I WAS doing my job...and doing it well!!!! It simply was too little, almost too late!! Again, maybe your W is more worried about saving-face than the other woman's feelings? jmvho

Good luck and God Bless!

NCW, you want RAP to tell OMW. You feel this is a necessary amend she needs to make. I see your point. Recovery is a time for making amends.

But you also have a more utilitarian goal here - for OMW to know.

Now. Why must these two objectives be achieved at the same time? It may in fact be somewhat cruel, unfair, and humiliating for OMW to get this news from RAP. A FS tells another FS about an affair, they have common ground by definition. An OP tells a FS, and the FS has to suffer the shock of the news coming from the person who caused it. I don't know if RAP giving the news is all you've cracked it up to be.

GC

All,

I agree about having RAP tell OMW. It would be unecessarily cruel to OMW to hear it from the woman who caused it (or, more appropriately, was part of it).

I was speculating that she is running out of milestones? (not sure if that is the right word) that could be associated with HER reaching out to ME.

I am just feeling that if I do all this work - MAKE this happen and MAKE that happen - the dust will settle and I will look back and reflect. And have nothing to grab on to, to hold and say that in the midst of all the turmoil, she rose above and did THIS (whatever this may be) and that showed she really loved me.

Those of you with success stories, how do you quiet the demons that are surely coming that ask "Was that the right choice..." Or even better, "If she had only done this, then you will KNOW she loved you ..." The way I see it, my forgiveness is about the strongest statement of love for a spouse I can think of. Short of sacrificing my life for hers. There is no question that I don't love her. I don't act that way sometimes. She doesn't really feel it right now as the days have been tense. But in sum total, I don't think there is a question. But what about the reverse? She can say she told me all day long, but she did not end it and I would have eventually figured it out.

What large swallowing of pain/pride/self-principle is there for HER? What is my "fleece" that I will know her love is sincere? The fact that she stayed? I don't know. Maybe she stays for the kids and out of convenience. Maybe she will go as soon as the last DS is on his own and be a cold, distant wife until then. I'm sorry. I don't want that. And there I go. WANT. I am trying to do this according to biblical principles. It is almost as if it is a cruel test for me.

All of you have helped, but my answers, alas, may not be on these boards, but in the Word. As corny as that may sound. I just don't know what to do.

In my mind, not talking to him seemed such an EASY thing to do. If she was so concerned about the OMW being angry, she could have asked me and I would have called him for her. I don't buy what she is telling me. But I "have to," you know? I have to trust her again at some point. But I can't. She deliberately misled me and lied to my face upon confrontation. "At least I didn't sleep with him" is the response I get. There is some solace there. Would have been a lot of solace two months ago. Now? It is like the last withdrawl.

I can still find the joy in life. Just had a really nice walk with DS 1&2. Nice talk too. Talked about young boy stuff. My wife? Don't know. Can't "feel" anything for her now. Don't know if it is my psyche in protection mode. Don't know if it is gone. Scared as he11 either way. To have my feelings so easily cast aside. And I lashed out because I was angry. OK. Maybe she defiled the temple of our marriage. I don't know. I just don't know.

To quit now would be really easy. Like on an emergency room show. Someone comes in really torn up and the work and they work and the work on the guy. Fervently. And the chance is really slim, but still a chance. And then that beep-beep thingy goes boooooooooo....flatline. And they all quit and move on. I look in her eyes and I see anger. And I don't see a glimmer. And I think booooooooooooo. And I need a good drink of hope and it feels like I have used up all the bottles I had hidden away over the years.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ncwalker:
<strong>
I will only “quit” when I feel like I have done my best. I haven’t yet.

Good to hear that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I don’t know why my reluctance. Maybe I am buying in to RAP telling me it will really be over and I am all hot air and afraid to act.

That about sums it up, NC. Now it's up to you to change all this. I am concerned that your desire to have RAP do the exposure is another copout in a way. You don't like being the bad guy and no one wants to tell another spouse this kind of horrible truth but making RAP do it herself is somewhat overkill IMO. It smacks of extreme punishment and seems vengeful and anger based rather than healing.

I guess I am holding out because I need a sign from her that she can put me first. And her telling of her own accord is about the last opportunity she has to do so. Is that wrong? What happened to unconditional love? Why should I require a sign? We all say that love is a choice. So I either choose to love her no matter what, or I don’t. I, too, said a vow. Please answer me. Is “needing a sign” from her wrong?

Perhaps it is the timing of your request that you need to consider revising. You must have done enough reading on this site to understand what Fog is all about. She very simply has shown herself once again not capable. Her alligience is w/ OM all over again due to contact. B/c she is back to contact as of this morning, you asking for a sign is just setting yourself up for failure. Is this your version of a fleece? Don't do it.

I mean, if she loves me, she should do what I ask out of love. I don’t think she will. She would do it, but this “seed of resentment” would be there.

She'll get over it once the Fog lifts. You don't seem to want anyone including RAP (or maybe especially RAP) to think you're this "bad guy". I could be wrong but I'm certainly getting that impression from you. Is there something to this? You are pretty darn hard on yourself IMO.

Let her resent away, you just go ahead and do what a godly man should do, protect his family. That includes protecting them from themselves, so don't feel bad.

I am not mollycoddling anymore. I am mentally ready for this marriage to be over. I am spiritually ready for it to be over. That is not my desire or wish. I am just saying I am ready to deal with it.

Great! This is what has always been missing according to my BH who has stood in your very shoes. Time to get down to business.

I chose the hurtful route. I have to be sure that is not the path I am on in telling the OMW. Right now, only she could tell without it being hurtful because she cares FOR the OM. But she won’t. For exactly the same reason. How can you do this and not have it be with a vengeful or hurtful reason? Please tell me.

Why are you asking this???? Who is it vengeful to? RAP? Obviously not, since she needs a village to watch out that she doesn't keep contact going. You are doing her a favor, not a disservice. She won't get out of the fog by herself, so help her out. Remove the probablity of contact with the OM, and if it makes him P/Oed at her so what?

To the OM? Obviously not since in all probability he needs the same. You'd probably be doing him a favor too. Last but not least, telling OMW is no way, no how, vengeful towards her. Not telling her is in fact, a cruelty on your part. She does not deserve to be kept in the dark about her H when you are fully aware of his actions then and now.

I fail to see how you can consider this a vengeful or hurtful act. [i]I understand it is your own heart that you are concerned about but surely you know what to do.

Ask God to change your heart, it is a request that is in the spirit of love. I doubt very much that any of the believers on this site have attempted this awful task without praying first. Ask Him to renew a right spirit in YOU, He is faithful. [/i]

I am really struggling. I was ready to tell this morning. To make her. Now I am not sure because of how I behaved.

Your behavior has zip zero to do with what you need to do, completly unrelated. RAP plays your "Christian guilt" pretty well, doncha think? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

PS - Please don’t be disappointed. I am not saying I will not tell. It will probably come down to she tells or I go. I just don’t know. I will probably end up just disappointing everyone. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You don't need to worry about dissapointing us. We are hoping you see the light and end up having a happy future with the bride of your youth. It is your choice how you handle things but as you can see, not listening has cost you once again. Let this be the last time, ok? We want you guys solidly on recovery road. Best, KB

NCW,
I'm at such a loss for words here I'm not sure it's in anyone's best interest for me to post or not.

I'm reading your words about exposure, and I am sure you're missing every point why the OMW should be told.

Here are some of your very own posts in this thread:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I got a phone call that night. “Mr. Walker. Sorry to bother you, but I just thought you should know. I’m not even sure if I’m right. I’m pretty sure I saw your W hugging another man in a parking lot.” A friend of mine. A person who loved me enough to tell. God bless them. They were so afraid to hurt me, they almost didn’t tell me. Took them a week to screw up the courage. My shame was unbelievable having to hear from someone else. But they knew what is right and what is not. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That person cared enough. Did they wrestle with it? But they called. There's a sign and a message in that phone call. Listen to it.
Your words:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Expose, expose, expose. If you want to examine something, put it in the light. If there is a faithful spouse reading this, learn from my mistake. Top rope is exactly right. You as the faithful spouse are having to forgive a HUGE transgression. If you are worried about exposing the affair because your wayward spouse may leave, I would ask you this: If you keep it under wraps and your wayward spouse STAYS, how will you know they stayed out of love? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She told me last night she would leave me if OMW found out </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Threats ? Think about this.... why does she so badly NOT want his W to know ? Because she is SURE it will end the A. She's heavily addicted, her supplier will not be so readily available.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> don’t know why my reluctance. Maybe I am buying in to RAP telling me it will really be over and I am all hot air and afraid to act. I am wrestling with what would serve MY recovery and I don’t see that it would. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So you are at the mercy of lies and betrayal?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I will probably require that she now tell the OMW. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This isn't a punishment. It's not a deal maker or a deal breaker.

You have every right to try to end the A, albeit it's not a PA, isn't still very much an EA ?

I know you're trying to do the right thing by RAP, but does that mean sacrificing what's best for your M, your future, your children's lives ?

The very last thing I want to do is offend you or insult you, because I know where you are, I know the pain, and it's like salt in the wound.

Everyone here isn't telling you the same thing for different reasons. It's part of Plan A. It's a tried and true method. YOUR methods aren't working, give this at least a shot.

What do you have to lose at this point ?

Honestly ????

Nc, looks like we posted at pretty much the same time. You just take one step at a time. Do one thing and then the next. Try not to overthink this. Do what you need to do with exposure and then go from there. The fog will lift someday, and you can begin to work on recovery TOGETHER. That will be the time for your "fleece", not just yet. Meditate on Psalm 51. It will help. KB

NC-

RAP is obviously still in the throes of addiction. My WH is the same way. He will do nothing for me. He doesn't want to hurt the OW. No matter that I had no choice in the situation. He does not want to hurt her, and does not care if I hurt. That is just the way these things go.

RAP is probably feeling awful. You know Romans 7:15-24? "What I do, I do not understand. For I do not do what I want, but I do what I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I concur that the law is good. So that it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. The willing is ready at hand but doing is not. For I do not do the good I want, but I do the evil I do not want. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. So then, I discover the principle that when I want to do right, evil is at hand. For I take delight in the law of God, in my inner self, but I see in my members another principle at war with the law of my mind, taking me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Miserable one that I am! Who will deliver me from this mortal body?

I don't think RAP can overcome this on her own. And please tell her that we are not singling her out. All of us deal with this, in one way or another. I have struggled for many years.

So please try to move from there. Remove the temptation. I know that this will be hard for you and RAP and your boys, but it is necessary. In the long run, your family is the most important thing.

NCW: Maybe I shouldn't start this post this way, but I feel the need to. I apologize for not giving you better advice. I've read almost all of your posts here and have felt that you have grasped the MB principals better than I. I've also felt something missing but wasn't able to pinpoint it until TopRope, Knewbetter and others hit on it in the thread today.

Exposure. Exposure. Exposure. I think you've been hit with enough 2x4's today and have gotten the point. I also agree with Graycloud about telling OMW. Do it yourself and get it over with. I think it's more important to accomplish this first and worry about the consequences later. If you still feel the need to have RAP apologize or notify OMW, wait a few days or a week and see if the need is still there.

Now let me respond to a few of your questions:
You said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I guess I am holding out because I need a sign from her that she can put me first. And her telling of her own accord is about the last opportunity she has to do so. Is that wrong? What happened to unconditional love? Why should I require a sign? We all say that love is a choice. So I either choose to love her no matter what, or I don’t. I, too, said a vow. Please answer me. Is “needing a sign” from her wrong? I just don’t know. If it is, this is probably the last shot she will get. Can I look at her and say “Honey, it has been lie, lie, lie by your actions. SHOW ME.” Is THAT Christ like? I mean, if she loves me, she should do what I ask out of love. I don’t think she will. She would do it, but this “seed of resentment” would be there. She would say I am doing to be vengeful and hurtful towards OM. And part of me right now wants to be, I was so easily vengeful and hurtful towards her. There is no go reason for that behavior. I can preach the message, but fail in the execution. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, alot was said above. First, why do you need a sign? Have you read somewhere that you should receive a sign? I only ask because, it appears that you are looking to something else to make your decision. You can ask God for help and that would be ok. Just curious, have you asked? OK, that said, I think you need to step back. You think you are further along in your recovery than you really are. Every time there has been contact, that has pushed your recovery back to the beginning. Every time this has happened, RAP has to start withdrawal over.

Now, if you get OMW involved you will have another set of eyes to "look out" for you to help prevent contact.

Also, I believe it was believer who asked, are you prepared to move? Hopefully, it won't come to that, but I know you considered it when you were visiting your father. No contact is imperitive to your goal here. That doesn't mean they can't look at each other in passing, but RAP's not even close to being able to handle that yet.

Exposure while it may feel like it's vengeful. Done right, it is done in love. I think she is just trying to guilt you in to stopping this action and she has succeeded so far. This man, while he may not know it, has his emotional hooks so deep into RAP that she can't resist.

First no contact, then withdrawal, then recovery. Remember that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am not mollycoddling anymore. I am mentally ready for this marriage to be over. I am spiritually ready for it to be over. That is not my desire or wish. I am just saying I am ready to deal with it. I think the ball is in her court. Her actions have been contrary to expressing love. Not entirely true. She has made attempts. But then she has these negative actions that so eclipse the good she has done, it is as if she never did the good. But I have done the same. I mean, she looked at me with indignation that I would dare call the OM last night. Really, a wrong response on her part and I spit in her face. I could have done 100 other things. Like walked away. I chose the hurtful route. I have to be sure that is not the path I am on in telling the OMW. Right now, only she could tell without it being hurtful because she cares FOR the OM. But she won’t. For exactly the same reason. How can you do this and not have it be with a vengeful or hurtful reason? Please tell me. I am really struggling. I was ready to tell this morning. To make her. Now I am not sure because of how I behaved. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, you need to get to the point of no contact first, then you can deal with withdrawal and recovery. It's not time to give up yet. It just feels like it, since your emotions have been battered all over the place. You still have some work to do. I also, think you need to go back and re read Plan A. Your disrespectful judgements are killing your good work. One thing you have going against you is that RAP is as aware of the MB principals as you are. Once her goals get on the same page as yours, your recovery will truly fly. However, (and you knew there would be one), RAP NEEDS NC in order to break her addiction to OM. See what I'm saying?

One last thing, this site has listed a process to recover your marriage. If you try to take short cuts, your short circuit the process and sometimes have to repeat certain steps until you get them right.

Time to get back to work NCW. You can duhit,
Rich

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think she needed to “know” that he at least cared for her.

She wanted him to be as in love with her as she is with him and show it by “risking all” to see her again. He was not going to do that. She was a “fling” to him. A meaningless vehicle for him to relieve himself.

She could not do a simple thing like stop trying to talk to him.

“I didn’t want to hurt you,” she said. Why did she do it then?

She had a right to know if he cared. She NEEDED to know.

She had to know if he cared at all.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All of this makes perfect sense to me as a FWS. In ways I wish there were feelings. It would help ease my pain. I have done the unthinkable to my W. I have hurt her in unimaginable ways. And for what? For nothing. For fun. I don’t know if RAP feels the same way but I submit that she might. I don’t think she is proud of what she has done, not gleefully smiling at the face in the mirror. It was for nothing, wasn’t it?

I hate myself for it. For the pain caused over nothing.

But I would ask you – how much of a leash would you give a heroin addict?

None.

If you committed them to a hospital and “locked them down” for three months to get over the addiction, would that be seen as cruel, or necessary?

Necessary.

My wife had the option to live somewhere else. She did not take it.

Of course not.

In fact, I have given her numerous options to help her break her cycle. Every option I freely gave and did not force, she has turned against me. Each one involved ME suffering through questions, not knowing what she was up to. Me reaching out and extending love and trust where it was not deserved by grace. And she took advantage of it. And now SHE has been unable to suffer through a question to protect my feelings. She has not been able to give in the least where she has received in abundance. What now, Robby?

More.

At what point do you say my way or the highway? If I took all the phones out of the house, would that be too much? What about her car keys? What if I insisted one of the 3DS had to be with her at all times? What now is too much? Are you asking if I would be willing to stand up and take the 7th bloody nose without changing MY behavior because she was addicted? Or do I get to tie her hands so I don’t get punched?

Tie her hands.

I hate to go back to the drug analogy but I am…

A friend of mine’s <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> W had a real problem with booger sugar. She would go out with her friends, get high and sometimes stay out all night. H was worried sick. W wouldn’t answer cell, call to check in, nothing. W was confronted and she admitted she had a problem. She would stop. She knew she was hurting her H and her marriage. She knew the pain her actions caused. She would stop. “I’m going out, you need to trust me.” H let W go out with friends, she was better, she was going to stop. She didn’t. This pattern continued and escalated. H, not knowing what else to do, threatened to tell her parents. “Don’t you dare!!! I’ll never forgive you. I’ll hate you forever. I’ll leave you. It would kill them. I’ll stop.” She didn’t. H told parents, W went to rehab. That worked for a while. Then along came an excuse, which was quickly nourished into a reason to relapse and the State Troopers.

She quit. But not only because of H or even parents…

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please answer me. Is “needing a sign” from her wrong?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, but I’m afraid you may be putting faith where it does not belong. RAP may be as unable to expose as above W was to quit.