I’ve been in a pretty strong plan B for nearly 3 weeks. WW seems to be playing by the rules and has not initiated any contact other than an Email I promptly sent to a friend who has agreed to filter the chafe out. Transfer of the children is face to face, but is unceremonious and quick without conversation.

I'll cut to the chase.

WW is going to her sister's wedding in Sept. She wants to involve our children as ring bearer/flower girl. I was going to be the MC but.......

Anywho, I get the children every weekend according to the separation agreement. She wants to have them for the weekend of the wedding and our agreement states “liberal access”. I told her I need assurances that our children will not be exposed to her adulterous relationship with the OM at a sacred event joining two souls. I've said that without those assurances the children stay with me. I re-emphasized this in the last communication my friend E-mailed her. She is completely ignoring the issue choosing to merely responds to the pick-up/drop off times and has not addressed it other to say we're separated and she may do as she pleases.

So here's my issue.

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• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I cannot back down from a previously stated boundary without having to turn in the vestiges of my manhood. If she doesn't back down too, I'll alienate a good portion of the in-laws, who seem to have accepted this scenario with open arms.</font></li>

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• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I cannot legally prevent her from slowly introducing OM to our children. I also cannot reasonably grill her with what she intends to do with the children each and every time outside her specified times.</font></li>

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• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sooner or later she will be exposing the children to the OM. What do I tell my children when they ask about mommy's new boyfriend?</font></li>

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I've got some well appreciated feedback on another thread touching these issues, but wanted a few more opinions and experiences regarding this in a stand alone topic.

Binder,

First things first. Congratulations on doing a strong Plan B. Lots of times, people are not courageous enough to do the hard work they need to do to end the affair and save their marriage. So GOOD JOB! I'm proud of you!

So your question is basically: do you stand firm on your boundary or not? Right?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Binder, remember that a boundary is NOT telling your WW what she can and can not do--that would be controlling. A boundary is a fence around yourself and what you will and will not allow into your life (and by extension, in your kids' lives). In this instance, your boundary is that you will not allow your kids to be exposed to the OM or to an uncommitted, sexual fling.

Your WW has complete freedom to accept this boundary or not accept it...but she is also just as free then to experience the consequences of her own choice.

For instance, if she decides it is her priority to have her children participate in her sister's wedding (their aunt), then she only has to choose to put her sister and children ahead of her own lusts. My guess would be that if she were to give you the kid's complete schedules, show you that she is not taking OM, and prove it to you by making her promises and actions match...that you would have NO PROBLEM allowing the kids to be with her that weekend and participate in the wedding.

However, if she decides that no matter who she has to hurt or what she has to do, her lusts are her priority, then it is reasonable to allow her to experience the consequence of her own choice. Her own children will miss her sister's wedding because of her lover. She may blame you and she may try to shift focus to you...but in the end she made the decision.

And Binder, the BEST part of Plan B is exactly this dynamic: allowing the WS to suffer the consequences of their decisions. I'm telling you right now, it IS going to hurt her. Your WW is going to have a rude awakening when she and OM are faced with the death of their "fantasy." No...they are NOT going to get everything they want. Yes...they are going to have to face loss. He will not be able to fill her EN's as perfectly as she fantasized. The illusion will crumble.

But...it will only crumble if you are brave enough to watch as your WW suffers the consequences of her own choices. You must be courageous and let her shoot herself in the foot. It's hard, but it's the most loving thing you can do for her.

Enforce your boundary and let her make her decision.


CJ

Binder,

Can you contact the bride and groom to let them know that the WS is w/OM so u feel the children are not safe since the WS refuses to address the request to assure you that the children will not be around the OM? You can even hint that there c/b questionnable character issues with the OM (you know there are because of the A, but who knows what other undesireable qualities he is hiding). You don't have to give examples, just raise the doubt/question.

So if your WS won't give you that assurance, maybe her family will. Also ask for a back up plan in case the OM shows up at the wedding.

JMHO,
L.

Binder, believe me when I say I know how gut wrenching this is. Your kids under the influence of pond scum. I live with this constantly.

I'm sorry to say that I think there's nothing you can do about it. This is really hard to accept and I frequently resist this reality, causing further heartache.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Binder:
<strong>I told her I need assurances that our children will not be exposed to her adulterous relationship with the OM at a sacred event joining two souls.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sure she received this as your selfish attempts to control her - from her perspective. If she's defiant like my XW is, she'll do it anyway just to show you she can.

I recommend you state your boundary as, "I object to our kids being in OM's presence." She'll still ignore you, but she'll know your feelings.

Wanna hear a good one?

My WS was well aware that I wanted OM to have no influence in my son's life. (It was tough enough that they were already well acquainted.) My WS "became" Catholic when she began the affair because OM was Catholic. Accordingly, she steered my son to go through the Catholic rituals to get confirmed. I was well aware of this and encouraged my son to do this if he wanted to. I even attended his first communion, sitting next to WS (this was before Plan B). Eventually, it came time for his confirmation and WS arranged for OM to be his "sponsor" - or whatever it's called for the person who represents to the church that this child should be confirmed. Imagine that - a Catholic man going through a divorce, leaving his family for an adulterous relationship with the wife of another man, representing Catholic virtues in a confirmation ceremony. Needless to say, I wasn't aware of any of this at the time. Why? Because I had set my boundary with my WS, she understood it, and as a result had to do all this behind my back. I eventually found out from my son, who was coerced by his Mom to not telling me about it before hand, because I would have objected.

Hmmmmmm. Who do you think made a lasting impression on my son?

WAT

Orchid, I appreciate the suggestion, but her soon to be married sister had no problem meeting OM 3 weeks after D-day and partied with the two of them. She helped keep her dirty little secret too. Just so you know, her sister is actually her ½ sister and the result of daddy’s affair/marriage after dumping WW’s mom. This is status quo in their family.

Also, WW also comes from a very blue collar background. OM is a physician/pilot and I’m sure in their eyes she has in some peculiar way “traded up” even though he too is married. Though I doubt they would raise their eyebrows if she showed up with someone in an orange jumpsuit and leg shackles.

The wedding will be about 5 min. away from my cabin at a retreat/conference centre. Last year we suggested her sister to have it there for the beauty of the area. I will take advantage of a weekend without children to go to my cabin. I don’t plan on crashing the wedding, but I’m sure it will be in the back of her head. The fact it’s hunting season there will also nag at their sense of security. Probably will be reluctant to stand on the outdoor deck together. My only option may be to allow the attendance for the ceremony, but ask they be dropped off at the cabin right after prior to the reception.

WAT, I hear you. Your scenario is bizarre and revolting. I think God will want a word with your X and her PS husband when he gets his chance… and he will get his chance.

My WW will no doubt be stomping around muttering the controlling mantra and will make this a battleground to showcase how willful she can be. I’ll consider your point of view, but do not see how to back away in this instance after specifically addressing this situation. Let me ask you this, if you had prior knowledge of his sponsorship and held sway to prevent your situation from playing out as it did, would you have?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Binder:
<strong>Let me ask you this, if you had prior knowledge of his sponsorship and held sway to prevent your situation from playing out as it did, would you have? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes I would have.

And it would have been ugly.

But my intervention would have been because my son was directly involved. It was his confirmation.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to crash this wedding with you to keep your kids away from OM. But they're really just spectators and OM is not involved as anything other than a spectator either. Further, I know you will not be able to keep them completely away from OM. I shudder to think what you'll feel like when you hear about their airplane ride with him.

WAT

My only option may be to allow the attendance for the ceremony, but ask they be dropped off at the cabin right after prior to the reception.

I sorta like this choice... but I'd take it a step further...

YOU be there at the church steps to pick the kids up immediately after the ceremony .... wearing your hunting clothes, of cource <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> (j/k about the clothing, but not about picking them up yourself) Tell the kids before the ceremony you have a BIG surprise planned for them, and then do something fun, like a water park, or canoeing, sumpin'.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

FaithfulNewsCJ,

Sorry, I missed your post earlier as I skipped to the last one. I appreciate your input and agree with the philosophy behind your response. It may become unworkable eventually. If I grill her for every meeting with the kids outside of her scheduled times, she has the option of going to a judge to change the schedule somewhat if I don’t give her “liberal access”. She also will refuse to answer my queries to deprive me of the reason to say “no”.

The plan B is actually pretty easy from an emotional perspective. I feel far better saving myself from me and hanging on every word in her “we can be buddies right?” attitude. I would remove all contact if possible, but she does live all of 200 meters away and that would be tough with a 2 and 7 Yr. old.

My longing for contact is being replaced by a cold bitterness I’m afraid. I am angry. I feel myself wishing them misfortune. I don’t like this headspace. I feel it, but will act above it and redirect my focus.

WAT, thank you for opening up that big ole can of reality and giving me a heapin helping. I have already thought of that very scenario and also shudder at my reaction. Don’t worry, I will not overtly take any action to satisfy my visceral longings.

However, I have stated this particular boundary and if I back off now, the Association for the Right to Own a Penis (AROP) will seize mine and disqualify me from getting it back. That would make parallel parking impossible. (Just kidding ladies)

Pep, I might be able to live with that compromise. Her mom, the BS from 35 years ago is disgusted with her daughter’s antics. She will leave the ceremony ASAP when it’s done as she and her present husband want nothing to do with OM. I may get them to drop off the kids at the cabin right after without the assurance I require.

Binder,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I cannot back down from a previously stated boundary without having to turn in the vestiges of my manhood </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My WW will no doubt be stomping around muttering the controlling mantra and will make this a battleground to showcase how willful she can be </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Who's making this a battleground? Her, or YOU?

It sounds to me, an unknowing bystander, that your ego and pride are getting in the way of your decision making abilities.

If the children are the real concern, then I would assume that your efforts would be directed at making this as easy as possible for them. Causing scenes, raising of voices, etc., over who did what and how that violates a certain agreement will only cause emotional trauma for them. I agree with the previous poster who said that this is one of those things you really have no control over. She IS their mother...she HAS certain rights. You may not like it, you may have been terribly hurt by her choices, but Plan B is all you can do.

I guess I just interpret what you are saying as rationalizing the fact that YOU will be uncomfortable seeing her at the wedding with OM, and that, by using the kid's as an excuse, you see a way to possible prevent OM from being at the wedding altogether. Thus protecting your "last vestiges of manhood".

No one can take your manhood away from you...you can only give it away.

~sm~

sm - I believe much of your response to Binder is understandable given your admitted unfamiliarity with his story thus far.

However, I would counter the notion that he doesn't have his kids best interests in mind over his own pride. Like me, he'd like to protect his kids from bad influences, of which there are plenty in the presence of affairees in the act. That's his real concern.

FWIW, the "battleground" was created solely by his wife and OM who chose to conduct an affair.

WAT,

I understand what you're saying, and I understand that Binder wants to "protect" his children. But his by his own statements...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I cannot legally prevent her from slowly introducing OM to our children. I also cannot reasonably grill her with what she intends to do with the children each and every time outside her specified times.


Sooner or later she will be exposing the children to the OM. What do I tell my children when they ask about mommy's new boyfriend? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">he admits that there is little he can do.

If his W is committed to marrying OM, then this bridge will have to be crossed at some point. My point was simply that if one side refuses to "fight", then it can't be turned into a battleground. As painful as it will be, Binder needs to accept that his kids will be introduced to OM, and his relationship with their mother. I don't believe that restricting their access to their mother is the way to deal with these issues, however. For one thing, you CAN'T deal with this issue with a 2 year old. You can barely deal with it with a 7 year old. You can only scratch the surface of it.

Please understand that I am not bashing Binder; I am only trying to help him take an honest look at where his own emotions may conflict or influence actions that pertain to his children. Actions based on his own pain and hurt could possibly make things worse, rather than better, for his children.

~sm~

Hi Binder,

I can see you're in a tough spot.But,there's no way in the world that there is any reason for the kids to be exposed to the OM anywhere or anytime right now(Melody where the heck are ya?)

Since you are separated,it may be worth your while to investigate the possibilities of a court order barring the OM from the children.Judges look at what is best for the children and that can mean not having them around the catch of the day.There is no reason to believe that the OM is going to be around long enough for introductions to be made.I feel strongly about this.

If your WW cannot have the decency to put her kids best interests first instead of her own selfish needs then I would do everything possible to prevent their attendance at the wedding.

Whatever the age,what parents do in front of their kids is being absorbed even at age two.A child may not understand what adultery is but they do understand when a mom or dad is trying to involve another person in their lives.From there it can only get ugly and more sickening as more explanations must be made and more lies are told.What should happen rightfully even at this point in time is that your WW keeps the OM the he** away from the kids until and only if and until YOU and she are D'd and she can pursue her disgusting "relationship".

I am really fed up with these WS"s going above and beyond reprehensible behavior and involving children in A's.That is one point I give to my WH because he has not ever tried to bring the homewrecker around my kids and does not talk about her at all and so far,I think he will not until we are D'd,although I don't think she likes kids and certainly not mine.She calls my WH to come to New York and they plot and scheme and heaven forbid if he needs to talk to one of them in her presence.He always has to go right away.

See? Even in remote ways,OP do not belong anywhere near children in such a disturbing mess as an A.Binder,stand your ground on this subject.Each and every time YOU compromise your integrity and your rules because of your WW's attitudes and temper tantrums,you fail your children.Don't let her do that.

O

<small>[ August 11, 2004, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

sm - I am positive Binder is placing his children's best interests ahead of his own. He wasn't trying to restrict access to his children from their mother, only wrestling with the gut wrenching reality that he can't keep a scumbag from his children.

And what's your story? Do you have kids that have the potential to be irrepairably harmed?

WAT

Simple Minded

I appreciate the observation and your opinion. Though posting here is somewhat cathartic, I really gain from getting a third party perspective on the situation as best as I can relate it. If I only had needed encouragement and unconditional agreement I would hire a cheerleader or buy a black lab.

I have never overtly subjected our children to any of this nightmare. The only raised voices were during an alcohol fueled loud argument right after the initial confrontation regarding the EA and they did not hear that. After that the kids knew nothing was wrong until just before WW moved into her house. In fact the only time my son saw me cry over this was when we had to tell him we were separating. There are no loud finger pointing profane laced battles nor will there be. They have no idea this wedding is even an issue.

I am not trying to keep WW from going to a wedding with OM. Guess what? They’re doing a lot more than that and it’s really starting to affect our marriage! I am simply trying to protect their values during their formative years. WW’s father may have given her the template to do what she is now doing. I’d like to prevent that from dogging the next generation if I can. It may be futile given that WW has our children ½ time, but I do have control during this one instance.

I don’t expect this situation to arise again, as I am in plan B and have almost no communication with her. I initially set up this boundary in plan A and feel compelled to stick to it as any other boundaries I may have may otherwise be ignored as stated by Octobergirl.

Plan B sets my WW free to pursue the profane lifestyle she has chosen. It does not free me from looking out for the well being of my children. I would get as involved as I could if she began drinking to excess or using drugs as well. I am constantly questioning myself in regards to my motivations to ensure they are virtuous and not vindictive or petty.

Tomorrow I am going to my cabin and meet with a dear friend of mine who lost his wife last year to breast cancer. I will seek his counsel as well. He has become such a support for me throughout this mess and has always given good advice.

Octobergirl,

Bless you and your grit. If going into battle I would want someone beside me with your spirit and fortitude. To be perfectly honest I’m a little scared of you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .....that’s always a good influence to have over people. I wish this was all so clear cut to me.

Oh yeah, looked into the court assisted aspect of preventing contact. It's a no can do.

<small>[ August 11, 2004, 11:58 PM: Message edited by: Binder ]</small>

Binder,

I appreciate your ability to understand that I wasn't attacking you. I have not been in your circumstance, so perhaps my entire point of view is worthless. Who knows.

If I am reading everything correctly, your W is openly seeing OM, while still married; which befuddles me. If for no other reason than she will be crucified in D proceedings; which is minor compared to the pain and suffering she is causing.

To answer WAT's question, I do have two children, but mine are older than yours. I have a 16 and 19 yo. And to further provide information, I was a WH, but on D-Day I had a choice to make, between OW and my W. I chose my W, and one of the reasons was for the very reason you are experiencing. I didn't want to cause the continued suffering and pain that two D's, step parents, etc.,etc., etc. would have caused my teenage children and OW's little children. See, had I continued the A, I would have been the same as the OM you can't stand right now. The way it went, neither of our sets of children have ever found out...only both spouses, and a couple of very close, very tight lipped friends. I can't speak for OW, but time has proven to me how stupid I was, and how selfish. I will never take my W for granted ever again, and I will never be able to repay her for the pain I caused her, and her unbelievable willingness to take me back and work on the M.

I hope that your W comes to her senses at some point, and realizes what she is throwing away, and all the harm she is really doing. Unfortunately, though, that happens too late in too many cases.

Again, thank you for your mature response to my comments. Stick to what your gut tells you...we here only know part of the story...you know ALL the details. You are the only one whose opinion really matters.

Good luck and prayers,

~sm~

Hi Binder,

"He** hath no fury like a woman scorned"! HA!

No really.You and I(like other's here) do know right from wrong and what's important in life.It IS clear to you,I can hear it in your posts.Don't fool yourself into thinking otherwise.That's why in some of my posts to people,I may come across as harsh or opinionated but I know a fraud when I see one and I know when action needs to take place and rules should be upheld.

It's no secret that I feel very strongly about children's welfare in general but when it comes to Infidelity there is no room for consessions.Children do not in anyway shape or form need to be exposed to the horrors of an A.Too many are because adults are doing what they feel they want to do and kids are along for the ride.Not in my book!

If jurisprudence is not the way to go where you live then the children do not go to the wedding without you unless WW can guarantee without a doubt,OM will not interfere.How ever she wants to work that scenario out is her decision and who cares if "they" gripe about it.Hold tight to your beliefs.Let no one sway you.Your children must be the priority here.

O

So yesterday was the big wedding out in a beautiful setting with a view of the mountains. The weather was great and apparently my son and daughter were absolutely gorgeous and well behaved. I told my WW via my MIL that the children were not to attend the reception and are to be brought to my cabin immediately after the ceremony. My MIL and SFIL were only too happy to use that as an excuse to get out of there. They were very apprehensive about OM being there and what they might say to him.

So the children arrived to the cabin around supper time. I had the BBQ going as well as a campfire for marshmallows. MIL told me that OM was not there. I doubt he ever planned on attending. MY WW’s resistance to my boundaries were likely just that, just resistance for the sake of resistance. Her stubborn pride and indignation will not allow any limits to be placed upon her actions and/or judgments.

So I continue to plod along in plan B awaiting the next “test”. Meanwhile hockey for my son is getting into full swing with 3 practices next weekend with one at 7:45 on a Sat morning. Two kids to get up, breakfast in em, hockey equipment on, out the door....I can feel my hair turning grey just thinking of a winter of this.

Hi Binder,

It was nice to get an update from you.It sounds like everything went ok for the kids at the Wedding.I am glad you stuck to your boundaries.The OM really had no business being there anyway,the hypocrite!

I went through Winter myself last year while I was a few months into all of it and I survived.It was actually good for me to be inside a lot,I just wanted to curl up and lick my wounds.I made many fires in my woodstove too.I don't think I left my house much until March of this year.Then Spring came and I had a new outlook and a new strength.

Just keep at it one day at a time.Keeping busy with the kids is important,they need you.It also helps me.I have to get my oldest daughter out and running by 7am! Snore.....zzzzzzz.

O