RW...Wow! read the whole thread finally (along with the MB site being down for about 24 hours!)...along with deviantart.com. This is going to be a *LONG* response. Like I said, I had cut and pasted some of the things that jumped out at me.

I'm still on the perverbial fence. (I'm glad in the later pages, the counselour had suggested the posiibility of a P/A ersonality.)

It can be several different things, or a combination. Absolutely, right up there would be P/A. Other things that brown and I noticed were, possibly OC, maybe, just maybe even bipolar. (Although that may have been the fog interacting with the the P/A. Some things she said/did were out and out cruel, like a completely different person.)

I also checked the website she liked/likes (not sure what tense to use <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> )--I'm surprised nobody has responded with the possibility...maybe a sexual deviant? ("We took the digital camera into the backyard and took pictures of her feet! She's got a foot fetish, and wanted to share on the deviant art website. Of course, it's distressing to see the things OM has to say, but oh well, not much I can do about it...yet.) (S&M, et al.) I don't know...I may be way off on that one...but it *did* cross my mind.

You definitely have your hands full. (For whatever reasons, artists (and your wife certainly has some talent!) are not "normal." I know they have done studies on this, and they certainly march to their own drummer.) That, coupled on everything...wow, what a great "job" you have been doing! I admire you!!!!

OK...now for some of the lines I've excerpted (and they're all chronological)...


"But I feel so responsible for not being there for her in every way. I wish I could go back in time and change it."
***You have been. More so than I *ever* was. I hadn't a clue of what I was dealing with, and after a short amount of time, I got tired of hearing "It's not you. Really." (Had to deal with a huge dose of depression as well.)

"I've decided to focus on the problems that caused the riff in my marriage. Regardless of how this ends, I'll be better for it."
***I'm not sure if you posted to how you contributed to your M's demise, but...This is an illness she has to conquer head on--no time frames, no help--just support. You've been there for her.

(Gonna collage here...)
"However, last night she wasn't feeling well, and was online long enough to let OP know she wasn't going to be online because she wasn't feeling well."
"She never really said why her strange times are strange."
"Oh, and she talked about her mean side too. Personally I think it's a result of her childhood. I told her there are times I'm afraid to touch her, hug her, kiss or, or talk to her. And she said I shouldn't be afraid to talk to her.
So, I explained about some of the hurtful mean things she's said to me. They're all here in this thread, but that's when she started talking about her mean side. WW indicated sometimes she means those mean hurtful things, and other times she doesn't. I really think she's messed up. Not just the fog, but some serious mental issues."
"WW is really grasping for things to complian about where I'm concerned."
"She even asked why I love her like I do. This was a hard question to answer. I told her when me and my first wife went our seperate ways, I told her there's the door, don't let it hit her on the way out. I knew I didn't love her, but with WW it's different. I don't know how to explain. I told her it's like somehow I've managed to seperate all the pain I feel from her actions from the love I feel for her. I don't know, self preservation?"
"I think as long as she questions herself, then her own self doubt grows. She's afraid of making the wrong decision. She actually said at lunch today that she wished she had a crystal ball."
"I asked do you want me to choose? Her response was yes. I told her that my making that choice only makes things easier for her. She then admitted it would."
"She said she wished I handled yesterday differently, it would have been easier for her to make if I had blown up and lost control. I think she expected that, and she expected me to try and kick her out or leave with the kids. She was not expecting me to behave with detached reserve. I think it confused her. I can't think of any other reason why last night would have changed her mind."
"WW actually said she thinks she's been sabotaging our efforts. Well, no duh."
"I explained why I was still here, since she didn't understand because any other guy would have been gone by now. I told her because when I married her, I married her for better or for worse."
(Jenn):"--She told him it sounds like I'm behaving like my dads did. I didn't much care for that comparison at all.
--Sigh. I think of all the things I could lose, and then all the things I could gain. I could lose my comfort, my horse, my girls, my vehicle. I could gain my freedom, my happiness, a sense of "self" that I've lost. How do you make this kind of decision?
--I hate it when my mom is disappointed in me, I've always tried so hard for her to be proud of me, and this would just be one more thing that would let her down. I've spent most of my life letting her down, so this wouldn't be anything out of the ordinary."
"I'll be honest, I have no idea why she sent me a copy of her online journal post, but it hurts my feelings."
"Of course, there's another issue now, she expressed being mad and resentful that I wasn't the way I am now all along. She even asked the counselor if that could be preventing her from feeling anything positive about me. The counselor told her yes, she's going to have to get over it if she wants herself to be receptive to any growing feelings of love. The counselor also agreed with me when I said, she won't know she's feeling anything for me until one day, BAM, she'll miss me when I'm gone somewhere."
"Of course, trust is an issue. WW is concerned about being questioned all the time like a child. Obviously, feeling that way isn't going to help. The only thing I can think of is letting her give me some ideas on what she thinks she can do to help with my trust issue. Of course, there is the possibility this is all just a ploy to buy more time. Oh, and another thing, I said if she was going to give this an honest chance, she needed to stop wearing his necklace." (As a side note to this one, as trust is so darn important in any relationship: the P/A person barely trusts herself. Just something to think about.)
"How do you express your love, affection, and everything else to someone who isn't receptive?" (RW, another side note, goes along with trust: brown actually said (and I don't know how many times!), "How can you love me if I don't love myself?" Your W hasn't seemed to verbalize that, but she sure has showed you in her actions!)
"The reason I think she's doing this is to prove to herself that she CAN'T fall in love with me again vs. doing this to see if she CAN."
"Appearantly, she's still holding on to a lot of anger for the last few years, add to that she's angry I'm now they way she feels I should have been all along."
"She also reiterated yesterday that she doesn't hate me. I'm not sure why she thinks I think she hates me."
Wtchywomn: "I don't know what I'd do without Jane around to listen to me ***** and moan and cry about the bull**** in my life. When I'm feeling down and depressed and forever trapped, she reminds me that I'm the one in charge of myself, no one else, and if I can't stand it any more then I'm the only one who can make the changes. Sometimes I get so trapped in my negative, unhappy feelings that I forget there are things I can do, that I don't have to live unhappy or, in her words, martyr myself for the sake of my kids' happiness. Thank you, hon, for always being there. I appreciate you more than I could ever, ever tell you."
More from wtchy: "Apparently I don't listen, I'm overly emotional, I make too many assumptions and because I didn't come with a proper instruction manual, I'm impossible to get along with. Once again, I just can't do or say anything right."
And..."I'm not less of a person, or less of a journalist, simply because I have boobs and no penis. Women in this newsroom (myself included) have been blatantly accused of sleeping with sources, or using our sex, to get stories, as if our intelligence alone just doesn't cut it."
And one more..."I could barely get out of bed today."
Forgot this one, "Why does it feel like he's trying to control me?"

These were the ones that jumped out at me--and *all* great examples of what and how the P/A thinks and reacts. (Not acts--most of it is reacting, not acting.)


I have individual comments to the next set:

"I saw that as an opportunity to cater to her. We have our first counseling session tonight."
"I put DD(3) in the bathtub and WW finished bathing her. Of course, I vaccumed the entire house, inlcuding her room. I also cleaned the garage. Didn't even get an acknowledgment for any of those things.
she doesn't want me to give her a list of things we can do for her to pick from. She wants me to pick one and then ask her hey how about we do this?"
"I've got plenty of things to do until WW gets home. Her horse stall to clean, meals to cook, baths to give, cleaning to do, laundry, cutting the grass."
"The counselor said it was normal for relationships to become complacent, and it takes a lot of hard work to keep things alive."
"I can do those things, but every rejection just pushes me away. I don't expect much, except a legitimate chance."
"Seems Work or the barn are preferable than being home with her family."
***These are things which I *RESENTED* towards brown, and still, quite honestly, learning how to deal with. I had to take care of everything! (HA! Imagine a gambler taking care of the finances! Does it surprise you we had to file for bankruptcy?!?!?) It seems as if your W does do things--but at the minimum. Please RW, if she is diagnosed with P/A--it's not her. Not her fault. She is incapable of caring for anyone/anything, including herself. Everything is an escape.

"Last night I wrote her a little note, telling her how wonderful she is, and how much I love her."
"Imagine my surprise Sunday morning when she climbed into the shower with me."
"I was so relieved to find out I wasn't hated."
"right now it's all about whether or not she can even be honest with herself."
"Surprising how she notices the freaking coffee's not made when she hasn't acknowledged it being made for the past few days."
***I collaged these together, just to remind you, Jenn is still in there! It's more than just "fog" you have to deal with. And, my friend, you are doing a heck of a job!!!

"I realize what she's going through is an addiction, but you can't save someone that doesn't want saving."
"Sigh, all I know is I'm going to give her time to deal with whatever demons she's battling with."
***Don't forget: *you* said these words. It's difficult, and [censored] me, BTW, turned his back. You're doing fine. It's difficult.


OK, if anybody else reads this (and both of our situations), I may be hit with some 2X4's. BUT, IMVVVVHO, my EA and your W's EA's/PA ar ejust a side effect of what's going on in the marriage. Me? I took the easy way out (what I guess any A would be) any your wife? She's got a closetful of baggage she needs to address. The A's are just a side effect. And I think I got "beat up" a few times on this site because noone could understand the situation I was in. Who knows? I may be wrong...


"I tried explaining every person has the capacity within themselves to forgive, and I don't want to forget, this is my eye opener, my learning experience, and I'll never forget."
***RW, if you really want this M to work, you also cannot forget the *real* reason of "why".


"The counselor believes some of WW's issues stem from childhood, and recommended a book for her to read. I would have to agree. WW has some seriously messed up issues."
"Here are some things the counselor said:

She pointed out to WW she could see when WW hears something she doesn't like, that she looks away and goes defensive, and attributes it to her being Passive-Aggressive. The counselor told WW that's why I'm so hesitant to bring up anything with her.

I have a link I want to share, it's about passive/aggressive disorder, which our counselor diagnosed WW with. The counselor hasn't decided if it's just P/A traits, or if she actually has a disorder."
***Methinks the counselour is onto something! I don't mean to sound harsh like this, but regardless of what Jenn wants to do with your M, it is mandatory for her to go to IC. BE PREPARED, however. Lots of nasty $hit will be unearthed (mainly, about her past.)


"I've got lots of anger, frustration, fear, sadness, lonliness, and lack of self esteem."
***And this is why I am where I am today. You are alot stronger than I was. Just remember: this isn't you!

"ConfusedScott: I can believe she suggested bypassing counseling, it's a way for her to avoid being confronted with and accepting responsibility for her actions in front of a 3rd party. Don't let her out of it and make it easier on her."
***Your buddy is onto something! Just know, that it's also because of the P/A--not just her actions.


"I expressed I wasn't as mad about what happened, as I was mad at the premeditation."
***This whole Memorial Day event is what I had the most confusion about. I hope and pray it was because of the self-destructiveness that P/A's often have. Otherwise, well, I can't post what I want to say. The same for the whole necklace thing: "Well, WW is sporting a new necklace from this weekend, it's OM's, and last night before we left, I requested she not wear it." And, "Not to mention, she come home wearing his necklace, but she did take it off before going to the rodeo and put on a different one."


"I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop."
***No other way of saying it, but, get used to it. (Brown just had an episode this weekend. Had nothing to do with us, but, nevertheless, J&H showed her ugly face. I must admit, she worked through it a lot quicker than in the past!)


And on a final note, I just *HAVE* to respond to this: "WW told me where a man doesn't take much prep, that a women has to be physically ready, emotionally ready, AND in the mood. To me, that is incredibly complicated."
***Well, maybe I won't!!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


I hope I helped somewhat. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Our counselor is actually a general counselor. When this all came up, I went through my company's EAP (Employee Assistance Program) and they arranged for the counselor. The EAP program paid for the first 6 visits. After 6 visits, we decided to stay with her rather find another counselor and start all over again.

I went back and read through my thread after I became more aware of what P/A is all about. I have to say there are so many things that say, hey! I'm P/A! that it scared me.

I want to explain why I'm still here doing this. I grew up in a broken home, WW grew up in a broken home, and DD(12) has only heard from her real mother like 3 or 4 times since she was 4. She sees WW as her mother, and doesn't want to be abandoned again. I'm still very much in love with Dr. Jekyll, and I owe it to my kids to do everything I can to keep them from having to grow up the way their parents did.

Let me give a little history about WW's family. This is personal, and if WW ever read this would probably be mad at me, but I think it's important to this.

WW's Mom and Dad were friends with another couple. WW's Dad started having an affair with the OW. WW's Mom and Dad eventually divorced and WW's Dad married OW. Here's where it gets crazy. WW's Mom married OM. Yeah, WTF?, they swapped! WW's new StepDad is/was an alcholic, and a cheater as well, and they spend many years dealing with alcoholism and infidelity.

I know the woman I fell in love with is still in there. She's the woman who, since this started still does things for me. Like this, we went camping over Mother's Day weekend, she bought me a new shirt. For Father's Day, she bought me a card to send my Dad, even though, she knows he knows the truth about what's going on. For Father's Day she helped DD's pick out a new pair of boxers and a T-Shirt. Now you might not think too much about that last part, but what she did was narrow the choices down to 2 or 3 things and then let DD's pick. WW really had to put some thought into what *I* like.

I know I've mentioned the counselor expecting WW to make a decision at the end of October, but WW talks like she's staying with me. Here's the problem, things CAN NOT remain the way they are. At the end of October, WW is going to have to fomally declare if she wants to stay married or not. If she does, then we're going to have to figure out how to help WW's P/A issue. I believe the P/A issue is the CORE of the problems in our marriage, but I'm also responsible for my actions that fed the P/A issue.

I'm going to give you guys another insight, a link to WW's online journal. You won't be able to see any of the entries she's made private, but there really aren't that many that are these days.

WW's Blurty link

You can read some of this stuff in WW's own words.

The show must go on...

RW: Hey. I actually did take a look at her journal when I was lurking on that website she likes. I quoted a few things from it. So, yeah, it just puts an exclamation point about everything.
I empathize with you, friend. You just were/are a heck of alot stronger than I was during the initial 'diagnosis'. Just know, that until she gets help and admits there is at least "something" wrong, she will not change. Parallel to 'fog': until there's admission, nuthin's gonna change.
I hope the best for you and J. I'll be back in a few days.
LINY

Well, for the moment, I'm doing my best to avoid Mrs. Hyde. As a result, I'm seeing a lot more of Dr. Jekyll, and trying to make those times as pleasant as possible.

I taped the 2004 Summer Olympics Equestrian Cross Country event, which we watched together last night. She was actually quite talkative about it. She brought home a schedule of the things she'd like to see, and it's my job to program the vcr and DirecTv to record them.

When she came to bed last night, she was interested in SF. Of course, as sparse as that's been lately, I'm not going to turn her away. Sent her an email to discuss what we're going to do for Friday Date Night, and there's been some SF suggestions mentioned there. As a matter of fact, nothing's been really talked about as far as Date night other than my original suggestion, but SF.

I'm feeling good, the stress is low with Mrs. Hyde being absent. DD(12) is back in school. At the moment, I guess I'm happy about life.

Things I've learned about my P/A H...

His P/A behavior is at it's worst when he is under stress or feels pinned to the wall. It is a defense mechanism he learned when he is young and although the threat of harm is no longer there, whenever he feels threatened he will return to the behavior again. What helps is reassuring him that I am not out to get him...that I mean him no harm. To reassure him that even though I'm hurt, angry, asking questions, I will not punish him, but want to work it out.

Reminding him when he is being evasive by saying the same thing to him. I have a few pat statements that let him know he is doing it again... When he says "I don't know" I will say, "Can I have more of an answer?" Or when he is silent because I've LBed or said some things too quickly, I will ask "Am I being punished for saying...?"

I apologize for every LB.

When a discussion is getting heated and he is starting to backpedal and want to avoid the conflict I will begin to reflectively listen...by bouncing back to him what he is feeling, "You sound angry" or "You seem like you don't want to talk about this right now, and I do, what are we going to do?" or "This is really hurtful for you to talk about". Sometimes we let a conversation go, and sometimes we don't. If it is something that has been put on the back burner many other times I will remind him of the times we have tried to talk about this before and if this is not a good time, then when is...

Hope these ideas help!

Hey RW. I'm back. Service was touching, beautiful, funny--everything my Uncle would have wanted. (It just brought back alot of flashbacks.) And I know he was grinning ear to ear when I95 was closed because of him! And so it goes....

SHMI: some good observations and suggestions. Roles are flip-flopped in my sit so it's, well, alot different. Hopefully, RW, you can use some of them, though.

SHMI: I always apologize for anything I perceive as a wrong by me. You have some really good suggestions. I think my biggest problem will be remembering them during that brief moment when you realize things are quickly escalating out of control.

LINY: Welcome back! Everything seems to be good with you. I'm glad it went well.

Quite a bit happened yesterday, and I never got a chance to get back on here. I'm going to try and keep this in the order of events as they happened for me.

WW called me at work around 10am, she appearantly stopped by the local college and picked up the fall schedule. She started the call off by asking me what I was interested in. I believe I've mentioned before about wanting to go back to school. This phone call was probably the most shocking to me, because she's NEVER taken an active interest in pushing me towards reaching academic goals.

Let me explain what going back to school means. I'm able to use something called the Montgomery GI Bill. This is kind of hard to explain to people who aren't familiar with what it is, but it's something I got into when I first joined the Air Force. For every $100 I invested, the Air Force matched like $1000. I did this for a year. Let me explain how this helps me. They will pay me a certain amount of money depending on how many semester credits I'm working on.

3 semester credits is viewed as 1/4 time and the GI Bill will only pay at cost.
6 semester credits is viewed as 1/2 time and the GI Bill will pay me $500 a month for each month in the semester.
8 semester credits is viewed as 3/4 time and the GI Bill will pay me $730 a month for each month in the semester.

Ok, so the classes I want to take will give 8 semester credits, and cost me about $600. The GI Bill will pay me a total of about $2900. That means I put $2300 IN MY POCKET. It's like having a part time job.

So I take 2.5 hours of vacation time, and I go and sign up for the classes. I'm excited, WW is excited, things are really feeling good. WW asked me to come by her work and bring her a pack of smokes. I did this, now you all should know, WW has expressed not wanting to have any public displays of affection for me, but she kissed me bye in the lobby of her work.

From the SF the night before, to the academic push, to the public display of affection, makes me wonder what the heck's going on. Then I remember the events prior to the SF the night before.

DD(3) woke up unhappy, and WW brought her into lay with me so she'd go back to sleep. While she was in there, she asked why I gave her ID to ex-stepmother, and I responded because she asked for it when I told her WW uses Yahoo. WW didn't say anything but left the room. I had forgotten I even gave my ex-stepmother WW's chat ID. Well, I called my ex-stepmother to inquire about their conversation the previous night. My ex-stepmother couldn't remember the entire conversation, but she said she kept it light because she didn't want WW to know she knows about our situation. She told me something that's really got me thinking. WW asked my ex-stepmother what kinds of things her husband does to make her happy. I asked WW the other day if she could make me a list of things I could do to make her happy, and I would pick one from the list every day. I expressed my concern to my ex-stepmother because she's treading on dangerous ground, especially if she begins to question WW's actions,or implying she's doing something not good. She said she'd becareful. I want to point out, I've not asked my ex-stepmother to talk to WW about anything.

WW went to the barn after work, to clean her horse's stall, and she said she was going to ride for a little bit. So, I got to fix dinner. Just as me and my DD's were sitting down to eat, got a call from one of my creditors. This creditor insisted on not being able to wait until my next paycheck, and the amount of money they're asking for basically kills my plans for starting classes for the fall semester. I started trying to figure out what I could shift and rearrange in my budget to accomodate school and this unexpected creditor payment. Well, as soon as I told WW about it, she was like, well, we're not rearranging anything, or putting anything off, so I guess you'll just have to wait till the spring semester. There was a lot more discussed, and it never got out of hand, which is very surprising because it's usually a trigger for Mrs. Hyde. Bottom line though, is in this particular situation WW is right. My current financial crisis is of my own making, therefore I must suffer through setting it straight. Yeah, I was upset, and I told WW I was upset, but not at her, but at having this really great day and being up in the clouds with the balloons and then lightning popping all of my balloons as I came crashing back to earth.

On a side note, WW didn't get on the computer at all last night.

This morning, my new perspective is to attempt to make a business arrangement with a friend of mine to borrow the money for the classes, and then pay him back when I get my first GI Bill check in a month. If not, I guess I'll be waiting for next semester.

Just read through the links on P/A. God, that pretty much sums me up. After reading through that stuff it makes me see what lead my WW to seek comfort elsewhere. Maybe I did completely alienate her and push her away to the point of no reconciliation...Of course I can't totally blame myself. She is not willing to go to counseling nor try to figure anything out since A started. Is it possible to recover a marriage when a P/A H drives his W in to the arms of another man? I would like to think so. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Park: First, welcome to MB! You will get alot of advice from people here, but please--it does *NOT* take the place of professional counseling. (It sounds like you understand that, already, though! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> ) There are alot of good people here that *CAN* 'talk' you through some things, though. Good Luck!
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by parkem1:
After reading through that stuff it makes me see what lead my WW to seek comfort elsewhere. Maybe I did completely alienate her and push her away to the point of no reconciliation...Of course I can't totally blame myself. Is it possible to recover a marriage when a P/A H drives his W in to the arms of another man?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES!
I hope to think me and brown are an example. (And soon to be RW! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) However, regardless of the "why did this happen?" it is difficult and requires 100% on both sides. It requires WORK.

I would suggest your wife posting here and/or reading up on everything she can regarding P/A. And of course counseling. And of course *YOUR* understanding that even though you may have "driven your WW into the arms of another man" IT WAS HER *FREE WILL* TO DECIDE TO DO THIS.

Communicate with her. You sound to be in the real real zygote stages of all of this. You need to better understand everything about the entire situation.

GOOD LUCK AND GOD BLESS! Keep posting and let us know how things are going!


RW: I empathize with you regarding your financial sit. (We had to file for bankruptcy 'cause of my gambling BS--some would say the easy way out for a gambler--but we are still young enough I didn't want to F' up our lives forever--it was a joint decision.) Hope things work out with this!

One thing I didn't mention about your whole sit: she really needs to stop (completely) with this internet thing. it's just another avoidance/escape to fixing you guys.

Like you said, I too am scratching my head over going to your xMIL (did I get that right?)

Keep it up RW--you are doin' OK, my friend!

<small>[ August 19, 2004, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: LINY ]</small>

Thanks for the encouragement LINY. The one problem I have is that my WW is completely against any kind of reconciliation, counseling or anything and wants to file for divorce. I am going to be meeting with her sometime soon (was supposed to be last night but she canceled) to give one final push for working things out before she files. I have a very clear understanding of what lead us to this point and know that we can work through this and come out much stronger and more in love at the other end, I just need her to see that. It is hard though because she is in the 'fog' of her A and we have been seperated for 3 mos with very little contact. Any advice on things to say or ways to approach her would me much appreciated.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LINY:
RW: I empathize with you regarding your financial sit. (We had to file for bankruptcy 'cause of my gambling BS--some would say the easy way out for a gambler--but we are still young enough I didn't want to F' up our lives forever--it was a joint decision.) Hope things work out with this!

One thing I didn't mention about your whole sit: she really needs to stop (completely) with this internet thing. it's just another avoidance/escape to fixing you guys.

Like you said, I too am scratching my head over going to your xMIL (did I get that right?)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LINY: It's actually my xstepmother. My friend came through for me, so I'll be going to school and making some extra money as a direct result and should have all my finances back under control by the beginning of October.

As far as the internet thing is concerned, I'm not so sure I'd go so far as to say it needs to be gone completely. I definitly believe it needs to stop being as much of an escape as it is.

Also, before I asked my friend for the money, I checked with WW first to make sure she was ok with it. I like to practice POJA even if WW has not a clue what that is.

Mrs. Hyde is still absent, and seeing more of Dr. Jekyll. I'm not complaining. Enjoying the wife I fell in love with. She's called me twice today for no reason, and on the last call, she actually ended with a "love ya". Those are so rare, so I almost fell out of my chair.

<small>[ August 20, 2004, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]</small>

Well, it's been a few days, here's my latest. Things continue to go surpringly well with WW. Mrs. Hyde is still absent. I'm hopefully optimistic, and excruciatingly wary at the same time.

I can't say she isn't spending as much time on the computer, but I can say it's being spent differently. She's not been chatting till the wee hours of the morning, and we've actually been playing a game together a few nights.

I had my first class Monday night, only it was more of an orientation so I was only there for about an hour. Tonight however, I should be there for about the full time, from 5:30pm till about 10pm.

On Monday, took WW on a nice picnic lunch, and actually it was a long lunch, because we went and purchased grain for her horse.

Also found out on Monday, WW's best friend showed up for work, was handed a check worth 2 weeks of pay and was told her dept was going away. I personally have no sympathy for best friend, but I do feel sorry for her kids. She has joint custody, and they will be the ones I worry about.

Counseling is tomorrow, and I'm considering bringing up terminating our 6 month agreement if WW is commited to our marriage. I'm considering this because she's mentioned she felt we are "treading water" where counseling is concerned. Sounds to me like she's ready to move on and do the relationship building the counselor has been holding out on while waiting for WW to make a decision if she even wants to stay married. A lot of things WW has said and her actions say she's in it for the long haul, there's just not been any straightforward verbal declaration of her intent. Guess I'll have to see how counseling starts.

Miss you all, been incredibly busy!

My WW declared last night at counseling she does not want a divorce and committed to our marriage 100%. We ended our 6 month agreement 2 months early. I guess this makes her my FWW. I'm moving all my stuff back into the bedroom.

Anywho, this is where we really start working on our relationship. My only problem is I feel the affairs are loose ends that need wrapped up. I'm hesitant to bring them up again, but still feel they need addressed. I will probably talk to the counselor about them in IC the next time I have IC.

After my FWW declared her commitment to the marriage the counselor admitted there were times where she didn't think we were going to make it. She's happy for us, and we will continue to work on things. Think it's time to let her read my HNHN.

Thanks for all your support, I really couldn't have done this without the support from this board, all of you.

Robert

RW! Great to hear from you, buddy! And even better news! Keep up the good work!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by RWukovich:
After my FWW declared her commitment to the marriage the counselor admitted there were times where she didn't think we were going to make it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IMHO, VERY inappropriate of the C to say something like this. (I know she is only human and wanted to show her emotion, and in a warped sorta way, her support, but...) Don't mean to make a big deal over it and certainly not going to harp over it.

Excellent to hear. Keep us updated! (Is your W going to IC and taking care of "everything" else?)

LINY

IC wasn't mentioned, but our next joint session is in 3 weeks, at which point I'll ask the counselor if we should have any individual sessions. This should open the door for her to ask FWW if/when she'd like to schedule something.

AH my friend! you are one hard man to track down! Ive spent a week just trying to find you lol.

It is so good to see you guys doing so well,it is still a work in progress but one that is definetly goin g in the right direction! well just letting you know im still lurking and watching.... be good my friend.....

RW - Seems like things are improving for you. I read your wife's journal. She is really a good writer, makes common things very interesting.

It does seem like she needs more time alone. She seems to enjoy that. Artistic people are always kinda strange.

Cliff: I never go to far. I owe so much to this site. But I don't see myself being out of the woods yet. I'm hopefully optimistic, but excruciatingly wary.

Believer: I wish you could read the stuff on her journal that is locked to just her friends. What you see now is what she wants the world to see, which is pretty much harmless.

Online, things are not the same as the are Offline. They aren't as bad, but enough for me to continue to be wary. One of the locked posts on her journal included something about one of those Dear Abby type columns about what women should watch out for before "hooking" up with a guy. I'm sad to say, I qualify for more of the things on the list than I like. FWW posted she wished she had seen that list 7 years ago.

There are times where I'm entirely uncertain why she chose to stay married to me. I thought about asking that question at our next counseling session, but I think I'm going to wait a bit longer before asking. I'd really like to know if she decided to stay because she WANTS to be with me or if she NEEDS to be with me.

This is a difficult situation still, and there is still a long way to go, but at least for the first time her actions and words are saying the same things. She's really working on this with me.

Last night would be a good case in point. FWW and our DD's went camping over the weekend with FWW's Best Friend and her DD's. The left Saturday morning and got back yesterday afternoon. I had the house clean and smelling real nice. I went to Wal-mart and bought stinky carpet stuff and stinky candles.

I planned dinner, and started making it, FWW came in and helped me on her own. Also I did all of the laundry from their trip. Normally, when I fold and put away clothes, I do it in the bedroom, so I don't have to go as far to put the clothes away. FWW requested I do it in the living room, and she helped me with EVERY load.

To top this all off, she did turn on her computer, to check mail, posts, etc. But she didn't stay online. I imagine she'll spend some time online tonight though. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

In between loads of laundry, we cuddled on the couch. Ok, maybe cuddled isn't the best word. At one point I was her foot stool, and ended up being her pillow. I'd much rather be the pillow than the foot stool.

Oh, and I bought her some new sleepwear, which she wore last night. It's matching shirt and shorts. They are a subtle pink edged with black and have the zodiac all over them. I think she liked them.

I've run into a personal problem though. At least I think it's a personal problem. Saturday while at work, I was working with a female on the phone. At one point she said something about me yelling at her. I apologized profusly and attributed it to the white noise of the Computer Network Operations Center where I work. Well, yesterday, FWW's mom called and I was telling her about the camping trip and how I felt about not getting to go. She said I was yelling at her too. Now, I know I'm not mad about not getting to go, disappointed yes, but not mad. But that's 2 people that have accused me of yelling at them. I'm wondering if I'm developing some sort of hearing problems.

Anyway, this whole recovery process I think is far more difficult and patience wearing. The affairs have NOT been addressed, and I'm not sure if they will through counseling. What we're working on are the problems with our relationship before the affairs ever took place.

I conveinently placed my HNHN's in the bathroom reading basket. It's a good place for me to pick up and stay focused, at the same time it's available to FWW without me pushing for her to read it.

You've heard the statement, "if it seems too good to be true, it probably is".

You see what this whole thing has done to me? I used to be an optimist. I believed if at first you don't succeed, try, try again. I believed where there is a will, there is a way. Gah, the pessimism is creeping in. Actually, I'm not surprised. I've read many, many posts/threads on these boards and the pessimism is frightning.

Counseling is every 3 weeks now vs. every 2 weeks, so my next counseling isn't until next Thursday. I'll be back in a few days. Take care everyone.

Hey RW! Good to hear from you. Patience, my friend. Sounds like she's going in the right direction. Still, like you said, would be very "cautious" (is that MB/PC correct?) about everything. Isn't that normal? She is the one that needs to rebuild the trust.

Glad to hear from you again!

Oh, and was that one to many concerts you went to headbanging in front of the speakers???? (Sorry. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> ) In all seriousness, yes, get it checked out. You could ask your wife, but she may be just "used to it" if there is a problem.

Best wishes as always!

Well, I'm really shocked. I know FWW feels I'm not very fun to go camping with due to past experiences, but how can I change that if she doesn't give me the opportunity? She thinks when I say I want to go that I'm still just trying to prove myself to her.

FWW sent me an email yesterday asking if I wanted to go camping in a couple of weeks! We're working out the logistics of that right now since we have dogs, big dogs, that we can't take with us, much less want to take with us.

Things are really good, and I do my best not to allow doubts or suspicions interfere with us getting along. I act/react to them as I feel necessary to include doing whatever snooping I feel is appropriate. So far, I'd have to say, we're exactly where we should be, working on things honestly. She expresses love and affection, granted not to the level I would like, but I think that's something that will change in time, especially if we continue to go to counseling. She needs to understand meeting my EN's is just as important as having her EN's met, and she should make every effort to meet them. She's doing better. At this early in the stage, I'm doing my best not to expect too much.