This is my first post. One of the recommendations is to return to your first love. The feelings you first had for each other. Sounds good doesn't it? BUT...what if you never had those true feelings? What if you started out with a physical attraction ...had pre-marital sex and your future wife was so "guilty" she married you out of shame and obligation? Didn't know what else to do. So, you create a marriage of caring but no romantic feelings involved? Years go by actually decades and the H gets healed of his emotional brokeness and starts to "emote" to his W. Reads books on love and how to reach a woman, make her feel cherished and loved and secure. For 5 1/2 years I poured my heart out to my wife...could write a book on things a H can do to show his W love and affection. BUT it never got through. I asked her to give me a list of 5 things ..that I could do ..that when I did them...they meant "love" to her. She said she couldn't make a list. I said give me 5 things I could do to be a better H. She laughed and said why would I want to do that. So, after 20 years of marriage and 5 1/2 years of emoting and getting no response or worse rejected. Someone was kind to me. Words of affirmation and appreciation...it hit me like a ton of bricks. I had no idea what it was like to have another human being be kind to you and make a loving gesture. Made my head spin. Wasn't about sex or good looks my wife is by far prettier. This OW has buck teeth and a mole on her face. So, A ended. I'm now back to where I've been for nearly 6 years. Loving everyone ...getting respect and admiration from all but W. Who I really wanted it from all along. She can't give it now after "wounding" but I never had it anyway. I know the love of God...but gave up a good friend and someone who did care.

So Rob, if things were so bad before, why didn't you split up with your wife BEFORE cheating on her? I'd have thought all that reading about how to have healthy relationships would have clued you in on that one.

Let me get this straight. Your wife - the one you lied to, betrayed, and cheated on - is the bad guy here? Good luck with that.

Welcome to MB. You can find help here. I'm sorry if I have a rotten attitude. I'm tired of seeing people step on each others' hearts.

GC

Does she know, fully? Why will she not help in improving your M?
Ask your self what you realy want.
By posting here you are telling us that you want to save your M. Here is were you can get the support and roads to do that.

Welcome

although i am not denying that GC has a valid point, i didn't want his post to be your welcome to MB post!!!

i am sorry you and your marriage are in pain. What can we do to help you? i know how frustrating it is to feel that you tried for years to improve the marriage without the help of your spouse. i know i felt that way too. but then we come back to GC's point. why not divorce before having an A? it's been sometimes hard for me to get past wanting to say, "I tried and tried and you wanted nothing to do with improving this marriage" when i am tempted to think/say that i force myself to also say to myself. that is NO excuse for the A.

but, the bottomline is, here you are now. you are not in a position of asking us "should i have an A??" what is done is done. so that brings me back to... What can we do to help you? what do you want to see happen in your marriage now? what are you willing to live with? what are you not willing to live with? answering these questions will help us understand how we can support you and it might also help you get some clearity as to what you want.

WoW! My first response back. GC let me try to help you understand. You don't "just divorce" without trying everything else first if you truly love that person. I (in 25 years of marriage never once dropped my guard or even looked at another in that way) and even though you can't see me or tell what I look like...I was a model in college and a movie actor and have worked in television all my life..with some of the most attractive women you'll ever see.Some of which made advances to me that I can't even print here. You said you're "tired of seeing people step on each other's hearts?" How do you think my heart felt when I read your response to my "first posting"? My wife emotionally abused me for years and even physically at times but I kept going. (And so should everyone reading this) I tried making deposits in her love bank but she had the bank closed. To God first because of prior sin and me second and her family and friends third. I found out that the hard way. "Hope deferred makes the heart grow sick" is a true statement. Your spouse will send you a message everytime you try to "love" them. Rejection...ambivalence...lack of enthusiam. You will eventually get the message they don't want to be with you if you ask and ask and they live their life without emotionally attaching to you or anyone. I wanted more than that for her ..I had been healed by God and saw the way he intended our lives to be and I wanted her to experience God's love and His love through me. But came to the conclusion after 5 1/2 years of working at it that she had lost ..or never developed those feelings for me. We were never "joined together" and there for could not be pulled asunder. It became very obvious. I didn't go out looking for someone else. This is a learning process and the more you know about affairs ...you'll soon learn that they take most people totally by surprise. I know I've been in counseling for 14 months and have read a dozen or more books that confirm this fact. I was hoping against hope ...that what the books said would work. That I could love her back to me. Don't you believe it. IF THE OTHER PERSON is wounded or has mental problems from the past you could very well be wasting your time. They can block whatever effort you make to "deposit" or speak their "language of love" ..oh yes I read that one too! There is no justification for an affair. I did it and I am solely responsible for it. I shoulder ALL the blame. BUT....don't you blindly follow an author's advice ..even a seasoned counselor... and think it will always work. It takes two people to get in the gym to get in shape. Can you get in shape??? Yes , but don't try it alone you'll only get exhausted. That other person has to be open to your efforts and if they block you you'll eventually get a clear message. On another note..FL thanks for loving me...I didn't divorce because I kept thinking that the next thing I did would get through... silly huh!...I went back to God and prayed and sought counsel on how to make her feel loved. Thinking if I could create an atmosphere of love and appreciation I could become her "irrestible" man. That was wrong thinking and bad counsel. I later asked her what could I have done and she said she didn't know. She had no idea what anyone could do for her to make her feel loved. Intersting huh. FL you also said .."you are not in a position of asking us "should i have an A??" I NEVER asked my self that question. Do people actually do that? Do you sit in your room and say " I think I should have an affair?" I never did. I ALWAYS thought the real answer was in loving her more ..better...and in a way she could receive. But nothing could get through.. you guys ..trust me I tried it all. I'll post a few things for you to review and you tell me if...as a woman.. they would have touched your heart if your husband would have done them. I rest my case your honor...thanks for listening or reading I guess. This is my second post and at times the abbreviations you use are hard to decipher but I'm learning.

Hey, "knowtomuch" didn't mean to ignore you...HI!
What do I really want??? I want to love and be loved. Like everyone else in this world. To share the love I feel from my relationship with our Father God ...with all of those I come in contact with..including all of you. He loved me and saved me from death on two different occasions and I know I'm here for a purpose ..His purpose. And GC let's change your name to "silver lining" every dark cloud has a silver lining... I know you do too!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I didn't divorce because I kept thinking that the next thing I did would get through... silly huh!...I went back to God and prayed and sought counsel on how to make her feel loved. Thinking if I could create an atmosphere of love and appreciation I could become her "irrestible" man. That was wrong thinking and bad counsel. I later asked her what could I have done and she said she didn't know. She had no idea what anyone could do for her to make her feel loved. Intersting huh. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">not silly at all, i would think it must of been very frustrating for you, i know. i do believe you when you say you tried your best. and i know you agree that having an A (affair) was still the wrong choice to make. even if the opportunity to have an A snuck up on you, on some level you have to accept the fact that you did choose to have the A and to choose to have an A while married is wrong. right?

and yes, there are some people (i am one of them) that did on a more concious level search out to have an affair. guilty as charged. you will find there are many many stories here.

regarding my quote
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "you are not in a position of asking us "should i have an A??" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">by this i only met to say what is done is done, no one can go back and change history. so having GC(graycloud) say what he said does not help anything. to GC's defense, he is very beat up right now and hurting. there are a lot of hurting betrayed spouses (BSs) out there. You must learn to duck the 2x4s sometimes. i hate it when the someone's first post is responded to in the manner GC responded to you

(GC, if you are reading this, please don't take this personcally, i like you, and i understand your post because i know your history, i just didn't like how you choose to respond to this post since it was the persons very first post. we as a board have gone around and around with this topic... i may very well get my own 2x4s coming my way for saying what i have said about my opinion about what you said... well except i did not tell you NOT to say what you said so maybe i am ok. sorry rob, you can ignore all that if it sounds too confusing! trust me, you will understand if you stick around here, and i do think you should stick around here, it has helped me immensly)

back to you...

you do NOT have to defend yourself here Rob and it does not really matter if the things you did would touch my heart or not. everyone is very different. how effectively you can touch your wife is what matters. right?

once again the bottomline is still the same: here you are... what can we do to help you?

Hello Rob,

Welcome to MB.

From your postings I would say that you are going to be here a while if you want to learn and get support from us.Your marriage and all that has happened is going to need some time and effort to figure out what went wrong,how to solve the problems and how to repair your marriage if that's what you and your W(wife) want.

I too just wanted to say that there are many hurting betrayed spouses(BS's) here like GC so I am sorry your first post was not as warm and welcoming.It is a place of sadness but also survival,stength, care and support.

I would like to mention a couple things right off the top of my head.Many people believe that other's do not go out "looking" to have an affair(A) BUT an A cannot happen without 2 willing partners.It is a monster that is fed and grows with attention.It is a decision made by two that leads to unimaginable pain and destruction.

As an example,my WH and the homewrecker actually discussed! committing adultery beforehand and admittedly DID NOT CARE that they were about to embark on a selfish journey that would destroy lives.This is a man,that was willing to give up his wife and children,his home, everything he held dear,everything he believed in,even his health for a woman he knew only WEEKS.He had sex with her UNPROTECTED because he "trusted" her that she was "OK".

So,to answer your question: do people actually ask themselves if they should have an affair? Well,in my case,it wasn't those exact words but the outcome was the same.

The answers do not lie within another being but it resides within yourself.Adultery is a choice that should NEVER Be made.For any reason.

So,if you want to save your marriage and find in love feelings,try this site and Dr.Harley's advice.

O

rob, just wanted to add, i'm leaving for the day now. i'll look your post up again in the morning.
p.s. i must have this thing about the name rob, there is another robby on this board, he has told me how i was the first to respond to him and how much that helped. my dearest friend from HS is named rob. stick around rob, there is a lot of hope to be found here.

I do apologize for the harsh tone, Rob. But I don't take back either of my points. I'm glad you stayed.

GC

It's true, too, Rob. Your W has to participate in recovery or it's no good.

If your A is really over, and you can't recover your M, then you can't. Are you still searching for a way to reach your W?

The point about the A taking you by surprise: all the information out there also emphasizes - and we see evidence of this here at MB every day - that the perspective of the WS during an affair and in its aftermath is worth about the same as a bucket of spit. It is admirable that you've searched so hard for answers.

So how long since the A ended?

Robnow99

First of all, welcome to the board, I hope that you are able to find solace and help.

Next up..your marriage...wow. So you now are several steps further along the broken road due to your A ..but that things have never been right, not from the very beginning. I am not going to discredit this. I am going to treat it for the time being as though it is true. If at a later time you feel differently I will understand that as well. People's perspectives are sadly affected by their emotional position at any given time.

I have known of couples who have had long term marriages who were incredibly mismatched and did not attempt to fix things and possibly had never been really joined and they are truly miserable specimens. Locking themselves out of one of lifes greatest pleasures and comforts. I can understand how this would make you vulnerable. I can also understand how your wife must feel..her greatest fear come alive..you weren't true to her after all. She did settle for less. Self fullfilling prophecy, but carried out in the cruelest manner possible.

So 20 years huh? That's a long time to be so unhappy. When did you discover your wifes feelings and uncertainties? How did you react? Have you considered the possibility that the ways that you are trying to meet her needs, are more of a reflection of what would satisfy you and not her? Maybe you have..you certainly seem to have investigated your options. Have you identified the root of her dissatisfaction with her life?

Such a difficult and complicated situation, I will be following as closely as time permits. Best of luck--Noodle

Noted...you say her marriage to you was rooted in shame and guilt..and the shame was sexual in nature..now you have had an A..more sexual shame and guilt...I don't have an opinion formulated here, but it stands out from your post demanding to be addressed...will be thinking about this, what do you think about it?

Wellllll. This sure is an interesting place.
Hi, October thanks for responding. I would love to hear from a husband who was cheated on...and was able to find forgiveness. Here's why. My A was very short n nature with a friend's wife. I was closer to her at work than him although all of us worked at the same place. Now only he works there. I am the type of person that doesn't allow conflict to exist between me and any other human being. If I or someone I know have a conflict I "take" it to them in a loving way and get it resolved. Any thing. From an unkind statement to opening my car door in to theirs. I am at peace with all people on Earth except one person. Do you know who that is? Yes. Her husband. my x-friend(for which I am truly sorry) I wrote to him and stopped by to see him a few weeks after D-Day. He with much negative emotion took my letter and my heartfelt apology but I know he was and is badly wounded. My question to someone who has walked it out is. What is the successful process for reconciliation with someone you have hurt soooo badly? This forum could be a place for answers to difficult questions. I hope.
On another note...Finlearning..what does: PA mean??? see below.

led to PA: 7/2001 - 11/2003

Also: to GC from rob ...better known to you as "the bucket of spit" I think there is some validity to your statement about WS not having perspective during the A and maybe after. I believe it may have to do with riding the emotions. BUT I also believe the same could be said of the BS that "their" emotions after discovery also may color their perspective. I have been out of the A for over 8 months and believe what DR H says in his book is true. My wife and I recently attended a weekend seminar it gave us both some hope.
Hey noodle..here's my answer to your question. My wife grew up in a religious family ...not close to God but "religious". Lived by rules not by grace. She thought she had committed the "unpardonable" sin with pre-marital sex with me. My family never expressed love openly and when my older sister's friend introduced me one night at a slumber party to sex it was the first time I felt "love". I learned to express love by having sex. I also learned to receive love that way. So, for me...I told my future wife that I wanted to marry her and we were meant to be together. I expressed my deep feelings by having sex with her. Big Mistake. Meant love to me ..meant shame and disappointment to her. Let her Mom down herself down..and most importantly failed God . We had a pastor tell her "you'll pay for that mistake the rest of your life" and she believed it. AND has. But that was ridiculous. There is nothing we can do that the death of Jesus will not cover. His blood will cover over every sin but one. He died for your sin but not your pride. God gives grace to the humble but opposes the proud. **note to self...(careful Rob sounds like you're preachin')... The point is she didn't believe God could forgive her for that and remained for 24 years estranged from the love of God and His forgiveness. And it effected every relationship she had with other people. Low self worth creates massive insecurity. "I'll put up a front and create a person every one will like but it isn't really me. Because if they really knew the real me they wouldn't like me ...because deep down inside I don't like me." But recently she has found forgivenes from God and it's like someone flipped a switch. She's learning now to "be herself" which I've told her I like much better than being married to a "chameleon" ..her words.
Also, you asked if the way I was meeting her needs was a reflection of how I might want mine met. No I explored that right from the begining. It's funny with a "people pleaser" personality. If you ask them what would make them happy they can't tell you. They find their "happiness" when they have made everyone around them happy. They live for contentment and peace. And the "feedback" they get when temporarily they made those around them "happy". It's not their job but their insecurity feeds it.
As far as for me ..shame and guilt of the affair. Yes, much shame and guilt. But you'll never have a moment of failure in your life if you know what to do with it. I took it to God and those around me and asked for and was forgiven several months ago. I believe what the Bible says is true that "God casts our sins in to the sea of forgetfulness and remembers them no more". I am forgiven and free. If I'd have to continue to suffer that tells me that what Jesus did wasn't enough. That's not what God says. Do you know that freedom? It's humbling. Undeserved grace. Remember this my friends...God's love did not come because of what I was ...and cannot stop because of who I am.

OK here's a question to the ladies. What special thing can a husband do to make you feel loved. Here's one I did. I often send her flowers for no reason at all except that I'm thinking about her. BUT I never send them to the house. She's usually not home and a neighbor get's them first. So, I learned a new way. I wait until she's going to the hair salon and I pay $5 extra to have them delivered at a specific time. So, there are about 10 women getting their hair done sitting in the chairs and a delivery guy walks in and says I have a delivery for: as he reads the card.. "they all hold their breath"... Mrs. ROB...and I make sure the flowers are big and unique. Now, who feels like the most loved woman in the room??? And I make sure the card is full of my feelings for her. Hmmm. That was my goal to make her feel "special". More than once she's heard the other women mutter "I wish my husband would do something like that or they've actually said to her ..he must really love you." Ronald Reagan one time said after a speech ..."they often won't remember what you said but they'll never forget how you made them feel."
Anyone have any other really good ideas I could use in the future? C'mon ladies I'm sure you have some.

PA = physical affair

robnow..

we gotta figure out a different game plan for ya...

see I believe you when you say for years you tried to reach your wife...

that you pursued her
and did for her...

and got little to nothing in return....

yep affair wrong wrong wrong..you get that ..
and certainly not saying just move on from it...
you two need recovery....

I am saying that the definition of insanity that we adore round here...

is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result...

ie asking us ladies what YOU can do to reach YOUR wife...

haven't you tried...


My real question are more focused on what is the pulse of the relationship between the two you..

what does she say.
and what is she willing to change about herself..
and you really should have some expectations about not going back to the same marriage as before...even though you are the one that strayed...

so how are things between you two
how much time together
what's the mood
oppressive, guilt laden, falsely quiet...falsely upbeat...or even better than ever..

you gotta pick through this find what is working...and build on those...

ARK

Robnow99

Thanks for taking the time to answer, I have a somewhat clearer picture now.

So, correct me if I'm wrong..but it sounds like you are unable to return to your first love..because it never developed. You two had an immature attraction that was inappropriately consumated. Fruit picked before ripeness and now so bitter. Hmmm. Compounding the problem is your wifes religious, but not faithfull state of being. So it's mostly a social thing, and since the social aspect of it is so very important to her..being second class in the sex department has got to sting.

I'm gonna shock the dickens out of everyone here by saying that I think her pastor was correct in sentiment, but not in expression. He communicated badly. I have always acknowledged two consequences for sin..one God paid the penalty for..the other he allows us to shoulder, but does not insist we shoulder it alone. Natural consequences...fun game. If in a moment of passion I punch a hole in your wall and am immediately sorry..you may forgive me, but there is still a hole in the wall. In your situation I think the same paradigm is at work. You may have been forgiven from the eternal penalty of your sin..re both the premarital sex and the affair, but there is still a hole in the wall.

A woman who certainly didn't love you in a truthfull mature sort of way, may not have even liked you at that point..married you because she felt defiled by you. So she associates you with her greatest regret. Badly done on her part, yet so sadly common. She appears not to think much of herself, and certainly doesn't think much of you, and is frankly unwilling to accept even the possibility that she is getting anything but her just deserts, and serving you up a slice as well. [Takes a breath and scratches her head.] Have you ever, in the course of your marriage..rather than try to ply her with emotional candy, told her what your needs are?? Does she know that you equate sex with love? Does she know that you are withering on the vine? Did you sit her down and tell her, that you were so unhappy, and so unfullfilled that you were having the desire to look outside of your marriage before you engaged in the affair? Did she have the opportunity to either try to fix the problem or to walk away from you? There has been a lot of either deceit or denial in your history together..from the very beginning. Twenty years later you are still paying for it.

If you are both willing to really work honestly on the marriage..I think you have a real shot. I think that the marriage builders structure could be helpfull to you both. If it's just you though..and with this history.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

So she's found the real macoy now and things are improving for her..she is becoming more at home with her genuine self. That's a positive step. Is she more willing to allow you to meet her needs now? Is she pleased to receive flowers while having her hair done? I ask because social gratification seems to be high on her list of needfull things. I'd like to point out though..that things of that nature..while great..are merely gestures. Speaking of buckets of spit..gestures aren't worth half of one when your relationship is in the toilet. What about her real needs? Have you ever apologised to her for your role in what you consider a done deal and she has wrapped herself in bile as a result of? I ask because for you..and I suspect less because of your faith than because your personality is predisposed not to dwell on the unpleasant, but rather to seek new opportunity....it is something that while you have regret, it certainly isn't eating away at you..and to be frank..you really don't seem to regret it all that much despite what it has cost you both. It definately is eating her up though, and consuming your marriage as well. Have you apologised for dishonoring her? Both for the affair and for the past sexual situation? Sex is a binding act, perhaps she feels she bound herself to someone who would not be her choice if she had it to do over. In this case, she should have been very frank with you and refused your proposal..but alas, human weakness..if this is the case you are owed as much of an apology for being defrauded in a lifelong contract as she is for the initial inappropriate SF.

Such a tangled and incoherant post, I apologise, still digesting...but no less tangled and incoherant than the situation surrounding it.

Ah..just one more thing. Your former friend..the othe BS. He should never, ever have to look at your face, ever again. I understand your difficulties with your wife..but what was he supposed to be paying for? You do realise that he too now is suffering fallout from your marriage troubles. Also..if indeed he is your friend, how could you so callously disembowel him? Do you see the betrayal? Both by you and his wife? I think it would really behoove you, to go against what seems to be your MO..and start to show some genuine and considerred concern for what effect your actions will have on other people. We'll forgive the youthfull indescretion of premarital sex..but I would think that if you knew then what you know now..you would have reconsidered having done it. Now you are older but seemingly no wiser, you acted just as impetuously and have shucked the burden of the consequences of your actions with your *faith*. This is cold comfort for the people who will be spending a good amount of time and effort rebuilding their lives as a result. I really think that while you are game for gifts and special moments..what may be lacking is restraint and the sacrifice of your impulsive and self gratifying nature. Perhaps your wife would be more impressed with a concentrated effort on your part to make wiser choices than she is with flowers and candlight dinners. If her emotions run deep [and it appears that they do or she wouldn't have the wherewithall to hold what is essentially a grudge for 20 years] and her sense of duty is strong enough to keep her [faithfully, btw..and I suspect she has been at least as unhappy as you have been] in an unfullfilling marriage, then your ministrations will look cheap and paltry to her. Remember, if it didn't cost much, chances are it isn't worth much either. More thoughts to be thunk as this unfolds..is there any chance your wife would be willing to join and to post? --Noodle

Hi Ark...a few comments since you don't know me. My question to the ladies was a general one. Really more of a research project. I'd like to someday write a book on how men can love their wives in special ways. And your experiences would be a good thing to hear. Or even just your imaginative ideas. I'm not trying to woo her back anymore it didn't work. But I am hopeful she will sometime let down her guard to God and then maybe I can follow him to her heart. I think the more we talk she sees (as I do) there is plenty of blame to go around. I was unemotional at the beginning and she's been that way ever since. But honestly in the past few days things seem to be getting better. Following SH's advice. BTW He's the best coach I've seen since Lombardi.
and NOODLE..(are you a man or woman?) here's what Id say about that...
(but there is still a hole in the wall) How long do I have a hole in my wall? Yes, you put it there but God can and does take it away. The old saying...time heals all wounds isn't true...or is it time wounds all heals...either way you can't make the pain go away but God can heal the brokenhearted and he does. He's done it for me several times. I wasn't able to get rid of the pain when my father died of cancer but God eventually did. I don't equate sex with love anymore ..I equate Graycloud with love. Just kidding GC. I was healed of that early misconception about sex. So, I should just walk away from the BS I hurt and let him deal with it. That would be the easy way out. Most people would love for that to be your response. Ever make a mistake in your life Noodle? Just leave them wounded and bleeding..huh? Not me... I want to help anyone I see wounded and ESPECIALLY if I happened to be at the other end of the knife. Wouldn't the world be a better place if we all worked hard not to hurt one another BUT if we do to not abandoned each other but to do whatever it takes to help them heal. What's the ARMY'S code ..."no one left behind". I know what I'd want if I was hurting. And she's not worried about my choices. I made a bad one 25 years ago...and another bad one 8 months ago.And about 10,000 good ones since we've been married about 25 years. I'll stand on my track record and most of my choices. It still amazes me sometimes that people will ruin a perfectly good day ...(today) by living their lives in yesterday. We cannot continue to live in the past. That is a place I will not live much longer. You only have today... God to mold me in to the man you want me to be. Not yesterday or even tomorrow ..only today. So, let me trust you to do it and not try to do whatever "I" deem is best. She might join the post. I'll ask her. She read your responses last night. I love you guys and this is a good place.

Re: hole in the wall

I just disagree..I believe that God does not take away natural consequences. They are a tool of growth, not a damnation. You don't leave the hole there if you want to have a wall that is structurally sound..what it takes and how much effort to fix all depend on the hole, the materials, and your expertise in the area. So if I stretch that analogy out any further it will cease to make any sort of sense, all done with it.

I agree that living in the past without regard for the future can be a destructive thing, but so too can forgetting the past and the lessons learned in it to such a degree that we suffer a lack of hindsight..which will in turn affect our foresight. I think that some people [purely opinion here] have a much easier time living for the moment than others..not a right or a wrong, just a personality type. You seem to be one of those few, those lucky few..your wife..not so much.

Something about your post rings true..not a common thing for a WS to say that they have tried everything that they could think of to try, and for a sustained period of time, and to be believed.

I don't think anyone [certainly not me] has suggested that you walk away from your BS on grounds that you have done irreparable damage to the marriage. MB concepts are pretty straightforeward in that area..where both parties are willing to overcome their [sometimes crippling] incompatabilities they can arrive at a pretty good destination together. I agree though..that choosing to work through something does at least appear to be the more difficult path and also the more rewarding. [Clarification about the appearance of difficulty... the choice to rebuild and /or work through difficulties is perceived as the more difficult, however I suggest that if you look at the long term ramifications for people who run from and do not face their demons..it would show that they actually suffer the greater penalty ..so although the gratification or relief may be more immediate..it is not lasting and ultimately the effort and pain was indeed [imo] the smaller price to pay]

As for leaving people wounded and bleeding...nah, I'm a practical sort..kill it or leave it the h*ll alone is my approach to large predators. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Never know what will happen if those you have wounded will come limping after you some day when you least expect it. Slight correction on the army code..I do now observe it to be "we band of buggerred"..I think the new pamphlets are still a work in progress. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

One thing though..about wounding..if you had stuck a knife in me..I wouldn't trust you anywhere near my vulnerable points..nor should I..you have just proven yourself unworthy. Attempts by you to recover my trust and touch me in wounded places would only further distress me..but that's just me.

I'm glad your wife isn't woried about your choices..I do hope that you are though, especially since you do seem to recognize that your hands are bloody, forgiveness notwithstanding. The bad choice of years past...or the series of bad choices..were made by both of you, some together, some without relevant information that may have changed the decision for one or both parties. Your decision to have an affair was an independent one. Your BS had ZERO choice in the matter, but will be paying the toll right along with you nonetheless. Please do understand that this will not be living in yesterday..it will be present in her everyday..to some extent..forever. God can use this vile act to good purpose..but he can not rewrite it for her. Sometimes God does choose to leave us a little broken for his own purposes.

I'm glad to hear that you are no longer trying to woo her. Wooing is something that you do when you want good results..sort of nowish. I want to do this thing, and have an immediate positive response. I agree that if she opens her heart to God, and you follow his leading..you will have a much more successfull re-entry. Flowers pale in comparison to grace. I'd also agree that if you are looking for a place to shelve blame..both people in a marriage have adequate storage space to say the least. The important thing..is that you embrace the fact that while your wife certainly did contribute to the state of your marriage leading up to the affair..the affair itself was an independent action for which she bares absolutely no responsibility whatsoever.

One last thought re..your former friend...the only possible reference that I have seen made to him..is that you couldn't just leave him there to bleed, so to speak..I answered tongue in cheek..but seriously..if indeed you meant that with regard to him, please note that you have only stated what you want. You want to help..you want to rebuild...what does he want? What if what he wants is your unequivacle absence in a permanent way? Is that acceptable to you? Would you think less of him for it if he never welcomes you in his life? If he chooses someone that he trusts more to be his aid and his comforter and just leaves you out in the cold? Harsh, very harsh, but also just.

I do hope that your wife joins the board and that you both find help and solace and wisdom and companionship with others who are really able to understand at a gut level so much of what you have both been through. Cheers, Noodle

Rob, just to clear up one thing. GC didn't call you a "bucket of spit" he said that what comes out of WS's mouths during and after an affair is worth no more than "a bucket of spit" and that is the truth.

I'm a FWW (former, VERY former, wandering wife). You ask how to get through to ladies. You know you can look like Brad Pitt and it won't make a blind bit of difference if you aren't meeting what YOUR wife actually needs.

It's such a common misconception that all women want flowers, what women want is what they need. It's covered so often around here - we had a thread about what your spouse does that really filled your love bank. Top for most women was having their feet rubbed - romantic huh?

His Needs/Her Needs by Dr Harley covers this in a great deal of depth.

Jenny