you would think i would be a natural for this. i know she has been unhappy with the marriage for many years. maybe the point is i should have gotten more involved then. her H got laid off 2 yrs ago. they both worked at same place i work. she still works here but is about to leave.

H did not deal well with getting laid off. He became very depressed but would not seek help. Then he was unable to find new work and just kept getting worse. they have 3 boys. H was not even capable of caring for the boys while she was at work. H would not do any kind of counsoling, would not admit to depression, did not do much around the house to help with kids or general house stuff.

the wife is a good person! she is someone i confided in about my A. i must admit, at this point any friend that did not continually badger me to stop my behavior didnt do the right thing. many times she would tell me, i will support you in any decision you make, i'm here for you.

she confided in me right before i left for work yesterday. this morning i contacted her again, telling her i was so worried about her. she said don't worry i'm ok. i said as long as you are doing this you are not ok!! it goes against your inner moral beliefs and it is wrong. i told her i was on her side. she said she knew that, she knew i would support any decision she makes.

i told her: "i don't think i am here to support you in whatever you decide to do, i cannot support the idea that continuing in any way shape or form is ok on any level"

we are having breakfast on monday.

the other part of the story is that about a month ago, she and her H both got job offers at a company out of state. they are moving on tues. i was so happy for them when i heard about the jobs, i figured they made it thru, H has a job again, things will get better. how can she have choosen to do this now??? she says it started 1 1/2 weeks ago, but i would have to think their friendship was developing the wrong way before that. the OM is a friend of her H. he works here too. i know him, we all used to be on the same bowling team. he is single.

she says they are leaving tuesday, she and OM will be seperated so she will have a chance to think objectively. i told her as long as there is contact between them, the A continues and she will not be able to think objectively. and the decision she is looking to make is if she will be staying married or not.

we all know you cannot make this kind of decision in the midst of an A.

i so desperately want to get thru to her!!! i know the OM, part of me wants to find him at work today and talk to him. tell him to GO AWAY!!! if he is truely a "friend" of hers, he would stop this second and cut it off 100%, no discussions, just do it.

i know he is not a monster. he is very close to them both so he has seen how much she has suffered in the marriage. i don't know how much he has actively tried to help the H with his job loss and depression.

i'm stitting here watching the train wreck occur and i don't know what i can really do.

should i confront OM today?

Wow, FL.

Know what? - I am willing to predict that you will know what to do given your current knowledge and prior acquaintence with all these folks.

We can't know better than you on how to go about it, just that as a friend, you would be right-on to apply your knowledge.

<small>[ August 13, 2004, 10:39 AM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

wat, that's too easy!!! actually i feel too close to the situation. do you have an opinion on confronting the OM?? i guess that is my first decision to make. do i try to get thru to him and convince him that the best thing he could do for her (and for him) would be to remove himself from the equation.

See? I told you you'd know! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Yes, I believe that's the no-brainer default choice, assuming you've already done the same thing with the woman. Grab him by the throat and ask him what in the heck does he think he's doing!!

The tougher next step is how long to wait to see if they come clean with the BS, I believe, before you're confronted with that dirty job.

That said, I have never had this, er, opportunity to help a friend and I hope I'd be willing to do the right thing when the time came.

WAT

What would you have done in that situation, FL? Talked about how unhappy she was and about how you loved her, maybe? Or said, bug off, it's none of your business?

How would you expect this guy to respond?

GC

FL,
First, pray about it so you can clear your mind and focus on how you can be God's tool in this mess.

You know she has an emotional attachment already and it probably really began months ago. She has no idea how much emotional trauma she will experience when she moves away. The pull of the A will leave her depressed and miserable. Also, try to help her see the impact of D on her boys. You know she loves them and does not want to hurt them. She needs to see the literature on the effects of D on the kids.

I would go to OM and confront in a way that explains that it is not his W. She is married and has 3 boys. Would those boys ever respect him for what he is doing. Please point out that only 3% of affairs ever work out and actually result in M. Remind him that will he be able to trust a woman who has betrayed her current H.

Finally, they both need a dose of reality. They need to come to this site to see the devastation of an A. I believe that ahe needs to go to her H and confess the A. Why? So he wakes up and sees how he has failed. She needs to confess so she too can wake up to the reality. Remind her that affairs are fantasy and escape, not reality.

Offer your support in a way that says you will only support her if she chooses the right path. Anything else would betray your own convictions. Let her know that if she ends it now, the pain she will encounter will be alot less than if she continues. You cannot control her decisions, but you can influence her. If she chooses to end it, offer yourself as an accountability partner. Then you can help her through withdrawal. I think one thing that helped my W was to choose an accountability partner.

Remember, God allowed your A and you have learned from it. I think you could really honor Him for His faithfulness by helping your friend choose thr right path. It is fruit from a very painful growth experience in your life. There are no accidents, God sent her your way for a purpose.

Christ's Love,
Roman

hard to believe it but H does not think i should get involved. i first told him last night, and i asked him if it were ok that i tell vicki my first hand experience. he said no.

but here is where i screwed up already, vicki already knew because i had confided in her long ago (obviously, she didn't get involved to the level of blowing the lid off the A by telling my H, instead she said she supports me with what ever i choose to do. don't get me wrong, she acknowledged that an A is wrong, but she knew how unhappy i was and hated to see me unhappy, i actually had another co-worker/friend that encouraged the A, "it makes you happy, why not?" that person is single and younger)

anyway, here is another twist, i didn't tell H that she knew back when he asked for all the names of people that knew - i shortened the list Roman. do i confess that now?? it would mean having to give him a complete list. which includes lets see, the neighbor across the street who is the wife of the guy he golfs with every wed morning. and it would include a very good friend of ours, another guy he golfs with, someone i went to college with. the list goes on... i confided in so many people but none of them choose to blow the lid on it and if H has those names, it would be hard for him to continue knowing them.

the amount of mess i made will never get cleaned up. and now i am supposed to help a friend without it neg impacting my H? he was stressed out just to hear it at all, said talk to her if you want to, but don't tell her about you and he didn't want to hear about any of it anymore.


i have a mtg now, got to go...

FL,
Yes it may take a few years to unravel all the stuff, but at least you're headed in the right direction. I see your H's response as an emotional answer. Your M should come first before your friends. You should honor you're H's wishes. Also, I think you need to pray about this some more and see if God open's your H's heart to the idea of at least giving your friend a warning. I wonder if he is concerned about your emotional state and what effect your friend has on it. Maybe you could approach him one more time and tell him how you feel, but if he does not agree to your involvement, leave it alone and honor your H. Tell your friend about MB. She can find help there. You can still be friends, just do not support her A in any way.

As far as who knows, you have a real problem. It would be a bomb. Is this info that will help your M? I originally asked my W if anyone else knew, she lied and said no. I have not asked since. I think there will be a time and place for that in the future. I know there are others who know, but it is not important right now. Recovery comes before anything. I would think he would be disappointed that other people actually encouraged the A. So there may come a time to tell him others know and you should offer to tell him who if he wants to know.

I think it is amazing that no one told your H. What do you think of those people? Do you think they should have gotten involved? What do you think of a friend who minds his own business in a matter like this? Like they say, with friends like that, who needs enemies? I'll bet his golf partner knows. I would think a W would not keep that from her H. Maybe you could ask your H the same questions. Just proceed with caution.

Christ's Love,
Roman

i see H's response as an emotional answer too. he may come back and change his answer, i don't know. my marriage is definitely priority over friends, the problem is i cannot honor his wishes of not telling her about me, she already knows, maybe i did not make that very clear to you. she is someone i confided in but did not tell my H when he asked for a list of people who knew.

H has no problem with me having breakfast with her on monday to talk about her situation, he just does not want me to tell her about my A, says i should present it like there is another friend that i know that had an affair and this was her experience, etc. etc.

I ask H this morning his opinion about talking to OM and trying to work it at that angle. he said my friend is fully capable of doing that. i said, "don't you see, i wasn't!!! and neither is she now. i see this train wreck happening, shouldn't we do something. wouldn't you have wanted someone to have done something more in our case?" he didn't respond much, i know it got him thinking, i'm not sure if i should bring it up more or not. i'll see how it goes.

i guess i have decided i will not be talking to OM today or anything. I have plans to see friend on monday for breakfast. then i will take it from there. the best case scenerio, in my mind, is that once she moves out of town, if i talk to OM and get thru to him, he completely shuts himself off to her. it will break her heart but it will give her marriage a chance to get put back together.

currently i have no thoughts of talking to her H. seems like priority #1 is to see if i can help influence the ending of the A first. then ideally she can confess to her H herself and they can move into a recovery together.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As far as who knows, you have a real problem. It would be a bomb. Is this info that will help your M? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">no. but that answer should not play into the equation, now should it? i should be 100% honest for the sake of being 100% honest, not only if it will help my M. that would be following radical honesty 100%. i have not done that. i truely am trying to do my best but truth be told i have failed in the 100% honesty category in a few ways. i don't see how i can every really be 100% honest about the past. the future is another story, i will be 100% honest from here on out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i bet his golf partner knows. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i do not think this W told her H, i could be wrong, she and her H seem to have a very solid marriage but i still think she would not tell her H for the mere purpose of not putting him in the middle of it.

how do i feel about people who did not get more involved? truthfully, i, too, am disappointed in them, it is for this reason that my relationship with my sister has suffered, but at the same time how can i hold it against them?? i am responsible for me, not them. and then i also look at it this way, i put them in a terrible position by confiding in them. so i feel ashamed to have brought anyone into the mess.

i think my H has plenty of reason to be disappointed in them.

I am extremely disappointed in my pastor, he never did any type of followup, i came to him very early on in the whole thing, in early 2001, granted at the time i said the A was over (technically it was, for the moment), his advice was to not tell H. he did not question me as to how long it had been over, if i was struggling with ending it or anything like that. and he did absolutely no followup.

and now, here i am, in the same position i put some of my friends in. i want to do what is right.

FL,
Yes i understood that H does not know that your friend knows. I was saying you should honor his wish for you not to get involved unless he has a change of heart. I really think that most people are not equipped to handle these situations. Even your pastor was not equipped. Most just want to avoid the confrontation. You are equipped with knowledge that can help your friend if she wants it. She sees this as a chance at happiness and it is pure deception.

It is good that your H is okay with the breakfast. The problem is you know about withdrawal and addiction. Your friend will go through both and you know full well that they will continue the A even when she moves. She may even find reasons to visit home by herself.

You need to tell her you cannot be a part of this unless she is willing to stop the A and be held accountable. Talking to OM will not help much. His life won't be ruined. But your freind will risk everything to keep the A going if she is left alone. Their marital problems will not be fixed. All I am saying is try to come to some type of agreement with your H before you get deep into this.

If this is right for you, the doors will open for you to help save a marriage. Your M must come first. Except for God, it is your highest priority. Pray alot for the Monday meeting.

Christ's Love,
Roman

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> All I am saying is try to come to some type of agreement with your H before you get deep into this.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">agreed. and i will pray about the monday breakfast.

i'm heading out. have a nice weekend Roman.

well i really hate to have to admit this here. I missed the breakfast. I got so caught up with a squirell (we found a baby squirell sat morning, eyes still shut, very very young. took it in cuz it was sure to die outside, it is doing well, took in liquids, i have found a re-hab place that will take him. going to bring him there this evening) and then i got so caught up trying to finish something for a 10am mtg. i was up at 5am working on the computer. While i was driving into the office at 9:15, i rememmbered <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

i talked to my friend a little more over in an IM. her day was too full. It's hard to say if anything i said helped her but she was open to having me send her info about retrouvaille. I sent her this note along with it...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Vicki,

The website for Retrouvaille is http://www.retrouvaille.org

There happens to be a weekend in Grand Rapids MI scheduled for Sept 24-26. Please pray on this decision. Be flat out with Dave, either he goes or he packs his bags, bottomline, no negotiating.

Don't say it meanly in the heat of any argueing. Tell him it is the only way you can continue being his wife. Tell him your love for him is pretty much gone and unless you protect yourself from his refusal to work on this marriage it will be gone 100% (don't tell him it is already 100% gone, i know it feels like that for you but i think if you dig deep you will find you must have a small amount left in you that is willing to keep trying, even if it is just for the kids right now. again, this is not to say you are willing to stay in a bad marraige for the sake of the kids but you are willing to try just a little more for their sake.) So he either goes to the weekend and gets on board to improving your marriage on a substantial level or he moves out until he is willing to do so. After the weekend there are 6 follow-up sessions, make that manditory too. I would also insist on marriage counsoling.

Write him a note if that is a better way to keep it from going a bad direction. Make it a LOVE NOTE. i know that sounds crazy based on how you are feeling right now, but you can choose to act loving even if you don't feel love.

If you give him this choice and he chooses to move out then the first step towards ending the marriage has occured. He will either quickly come to his senses and then agree to your conditions in order to move home or you two can choose to continue the path towards divorce. Given that is your current desire, you are no worse off than if you don't give him this option. BUT, this action may just get the ball rolling for you two to seriously get to work on the marriage. If any small part of you would still like to see that happen then do it. For me, it was even less than that, i had no desire to work on the marriage. i only had a small desire to want to have the desire to want reconcilation to occur (hope that made sense).

Again I am so sorry I missed our breakfast mtg. I hope this note is not too pushy, i've been writing in and re-writing it off and on all afternoon.

love to you and dave and the boys,

Karen </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

i also had a 30min talk with her husband. not to tell him what is up but to wish him luck with their move. it was 30 min long, floated in and out of personal issues, made comments about how hard marriage can be at times. i almost wanted to say "WAKE UP!!!" but i never actually did.

Dear Finally Learning,

I want to make a suggestion to you.
I think you should consider telling your H about the other people that knew about the A. Have you kept other things about the A a secret from him? I hope you think about telling the entire truth--radical honesty! My husband kept a number of details secret about his A. It was devastatiing to me to found out he was still lying to me while I thought we were in recovery. We were not in recovery with lies still between us. This contintued lying is as bad as the A for me. I don't believe you are protecting your H. You don't get to make that choice.

Gillian, BS
PA Nov-Dec 18, 2003
d-day 1: Dec 18, 2003
EA: 1996-?
2nd d-day: (EA and details about PA): 7/7/04

FL,

I know I am late coming to this thread (I have been out of town and touch for a week), but I think you need to rethink your advice to your friend.

He did NOT brake up this marriage. He has been depressed and I know why he won't see a counselor, he fears he will NOT find a job again. YOu may not realize this but there are many employeers that view someone needing counseling for depression as not a good option, plus he was let go.

Yes, he needs to work on the marriage, but he had NOTHING to do with your friends choice to have an affair and she needs to accept that. Giving him an ultimatum without telling him the truth about her present affair and likelihood for another one is NOT productive nor is it fair.

I realize you empathize with her for how hard she has had it, but you need to realize he has had it very hard to and in ways you don't realize. I also know that she like you has been the breadwinner for the past years and you think that is a bad position to be in, but being in her H's position where he wants to be the breadwinner and cannot is very demeaning to him and he has not handled it well, but she has not handled things well either.

As for advice about your friend, I think you do know what you need to do. You need to talk seriously to your friend and to OM. Whether they know or don't know about YOUR situation is not relavent. The fact is that you do know about THEIR situation and they need to stop it now.

Further, you know she needs to tell her H what has happened. It will just about kill him, but he needs to know who and what is moving with him to a new place. He needs to know that she has already given up on the marriage and he will need to bring her back into it, as your H did for you. And YOU KNOW he shouldn't be doing this work while she is still in contact with OM.

As WAT said, you know what to do,and you know why it needs to be done. Your situation is not part of the discussion but the insight you have will help you help them.

But, do you know the worst part, neither she nor he will listen to you and it will just drive you crazy. Trust me on this one. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> But, still unlike your friends, you do need to try. You need to include your H in discussions as to what to say and how to say it. I think you can safely say you will NOT bring your situation into it. Your friend already knows and OM does NOT need to know. He just needs to know that you know about it and you don't approve of it.

Good luck and keep us posted. If we can offer you any help let us know.

God Bless,

JL

JL, when i read your post last night i got rather agitated, so i choose to hold off on responding.

i realized i was agitated for a different reason. on a personal note, going to the dr today is stressful for me. intellectually i know it should not be but it is. i confided in H that i was uptight due to dr appt, H, of course, tried to convince me i should not be. then i asked him if i could just have a backrub instead and he was happy to give me one. it helped and i thanked him. feeling calmer this morning.

my first response to your post is "great... i have obviously learned nothing, i am doing it all wrong here".

i did not mean to sound like i think H has caused W to have A. i certainly know this is NOT the case. i came down extrememly hard on W telling her how wrong it is to have A, how damaging it is to her personally. i agree she should tell him about A but i don't think this is the way to wake someone up.

i struggle with this... lets say W did not have an A. Lets go back a bit to before she was even getting ENs met in any way by OM. lets go back to the point where she knows H is depressed, she knows marriage needs help but H is 100% refusing. she makes C appt, asks him to go, owns up to being the one who needs the help but asks him to support her by going, he refuses. i know having an A is not the way to wake up a comatosed H. My thought of the ultimatum was my way of applying plan B to this situation. H is refusing to do what must be done to have a good marriage (much like when a WS refusing to stop A). first concept, do plan A. try to be the most loving W you can be (i believe W did this at first, when he got laid off. of course i used to believe i did a good plan A, so to speak, when i was first trying to improve my M, now i am not so sure i really ever knew how) but lets continue on. nothing is getting thru to H. He is treating W worse and worse. My friends biggest complaint is how he totatlly disrepects her in front of the kids and how the kids are now speaking to her in the same mannor. so what do you do??? what is wrong with implementing a sort of plan B option. either you start to do what is necessary for this marriage (whether that be counsoling or stopping an A) or i must seperate myself from you in order to preserve the love i have from you which is quickly being drained due to the way we are currently existing.

this the the thought i had as i proposed the ultimatum to go to retrouvaille and C or seperate.

i agree confesing A is manditory and should occur at the START of counsoling. I also agree NOTHING is worth doing if it does not include her having NC with OM. I did talk to her about this. The note i sent her was strictly about retrouvaille and thoughts on getting H to it with her because we discussed the other stuff already.

I am curious to get an answer from you. How does a spouse get the other spouse to wake up and get into a marriage if "plan A" (i.e. being as loving as you can be for an extended amount of time) does not work???

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But, do you know the worst part, neither she nor he will listen to you and it will just drive you crazy. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i know <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> i spoke with W late last night, she was extremely determined divorce was the only path, more determined than when we spoke in afternoon. which says only one thing to me, she was with OM after work. i know she left office at 3:30, sounds like she didn't get home till more like 7:30.

Gillian,

i didn't mean to just ignore your post and your suggestion. i have been thinking about it. i need to continue to pray about all this. thanks.

I did not read the whole thread but I am assuming you haven't done anything yet.

My advice: continue to pray, but don't let it be a reason to delay. Talk to the OM and tell him that you know and that your desire is to help your friend and to do the right thing as regards marriage (in general, as an institution). Then tell your friend that you have talked to the OM out of concern for her.

You are the only agent of change in this--since you know, you really cannot keep silent. If an affair is allowed to continue things just get worse. Regardless of your friend's circumstances in her marriage this is *not* the thing to do. It is a black hole, a crippler, even if it were to go undetected. The damage to the participating individuals is reason enough for anyone who knows to do what they can to stop it.

Even if you lost her as a friend, it would be worth it if it stopped the affair, imho.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Originally posted by everlong:

Even if you lost her as a friend, it would be worth it if it stopped the affair, imho.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I love you Everlong.... you are so full of the light of God.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi FL,

You know when I see the word agitated, I think of a washing machine. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> So have you been through the spin cycle yet? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I think you missed my point and that probably has to do with my "deathless prose" not being so "deathless".

Do you remember what we all said to you when you came here? Do you remember what we were trying to do? We were trying to change your perspective on things. ONly you can judge whether we were successful or not, but we tried.

My reaction to your letter was that it reinforced this woman's view of her H as the bad guy. When in fact the "bad guy" is the OM with respect to this marriage. She is supposed to be moving when??? This week? Next week? ANd now she wants a divorce?

I know you understand the dynamics and I know you understand far more than you realize, but your job is to get two if NOT three people to change their perspectives about this mess. You will NOT be successful until at least two decide to do so, but you must shine the light on this.

1. Her H needs his perspective changed big time, but an ultimatum is not going to do it. His defenses are up. Knowing he is going to lose his W will probably do it, unless she has been a worse W to him than you realize. But, he needs to understand how his behavior has eroded the marriage.

2. She needs to change her perspective because while all of this seems overwhelming the root cause of his behavior was the job issue AND her failure to set boundaries within the relationship. She then compounded this by choosing to have an A in the workplace. Frankly, neither of them should be employeed there after this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> So where to do you start with the perspective on her?

Well you start with the affair, and you start to get her to see her H and her family from a different point of view. You don't need to make him a saint, but I doubt his goal in life was to drive her away.

3. The OM's perspective also needs to change. He could and should lose his job. He is meddling in someone elses marriage and he WILL hurt innocent children with his selfishness.

My suggestion is to go after all three of them. I would also counsel you to talk to your H on how to best approach the H, the OM, and yes even the W. He knows more than your realize and he can give you a different perspective.

I know you don't need to take this on and I know you will find it very frustrating as the two trains head toward each other. But, I think you will regret not doing what little you can to help all three of them. I also think your H might get on board as he realizes that you do KNOW what she stands to lose and how it could hurt the children.

FL, this may be an opportunity to not only help your friend and her family, but also help your marriage by proxy. Please think about that.

OK, is it time to put the stuff in the dryer yet? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

FL, your heart is in the right place, and so is your head do your best. It is all you can do.

God Bless,

JL