Love you too, Pep. That was the nicest thing anyone could say to me--'full of the light of God'. That is pretty much the sum total of my intention these days...

and I know from 'the damage to individuals' even while the affair is undetected.

So I hope people will listen. I post on 'that other board' sometimes but my black and white thinking is rejected and scorned pretty much universally, sometimes even by those who are trying to get out of affairs. I would guess that there have been about 3 women there in the last year who have seemed of a mind and spirit to do the right thing.

But, what can I say? God is very much a black and white thinker on eternal matters. Repentance does not feature shades of gray.

:-)

so far all i have done is talk to the wife including sending her the email (i wish i would of asked for feedback before sending it!!)

i have been very vocal to her about my opinion about her behaviour.

they left this morning. i don't understand how she can be moving out of state with H if she wants to divorce him. she is taking a job at a new company where they will both work. she has left a job where OM currently works. my only thought is that she will feel less guilty about leaving now that he is no longer unemployed?

in talking directly to her i asked her to remember back in time when she had feelings for H. i did try to work on her perspective too and the concept that loving feelings leave when loving actions stop and that they will come back if loving actions are done again. i certainly don't want to reinforce her neg thoughts about her H. the stmt: "but I doubt his goal in life was to drive her away." is a very good thought. i doubt that was his goal in life too.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Her H needs his perspective changed big time, but an ultimatum is not going to do it. His defenses are up. Knowing he is going to lose his W will probably do it, </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you seem to be contradicting yourself. isn't giving him an ultimatum telling him he is going to lose his w??

with H and W now in their new town (about 4 hrs away) i have been seriously thinking about talking to OM who is still here. i don't know if i can really be effective in impacting his perspective. there is no reason why he should lose his job, i don't know for a fact if they took away time from work in order to be together. she is already gone now. yesterday was her last day in the office.

regarding my H, he does not want to hear about this. he is not telling me to not get involved but he did tell me to keep him out of it, including talking to him about it. i wish he felt differently about it but what am i supposed to do? i want to respect his wishes. he has never been the type that believes in getting involved in other people's business anyway.

this is very frustrating.

by the way, yes i do think my perspective was changed by reading here. but i don't think that would of been enough on its own. i don't know, maybe i am just too close to all this still. my head is spinning, that's for sure!!

you didnt really give me an answer to my question. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am curious to get an answer from you. How does a spouse get the other spouse to wake up and get into a marriage if "plan A" (i.e. being as loving as you can be for an extended amount of time) does not work???
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">if the answer is, change your own perspective, you are basically telling the person, enjoy life with or without having a spouse really participating in the marriage. i don't think that is very realistic.

FL,

Sorry for not answering your question </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am curious to get an answer from you. How does a spouse get the other spouse to wake up and get into a marriage if "plan A" (i.e. being as loving as you can be for an extended amount of time) does not work???</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You don't "get" your spouse to do anything especially wake up. Here is where perspectives and expectations come into play. Yes, you should be loving to your spouse, no plan A needed here. But, at the end of the day, YOU must make decisions and one of them may be that you are not looking at things correctly. Hence the change in perspective.

As for your friend, I think having an affair is a wake up call, but it is not an ultimatum. "IF you don't do this, I am leaving you." is an ultimatum.

FL, I think one of the things that is hardest for people to understand is that you cannot "make" people do things. You can set your boundaries, you can treat people as you would like to be treated, you can change your perspective and see things in a more "global" way. You can HOPE that your behavior will change the behavior of your spouse. But, they have to want to change and often what makes people change is the realization that their spouse is not happy with them. If it does not change them, then one has another decision to make.

The first decision is "is this a deal breaker?" I never expected my marriage to be perfect and it is not, but it became better when I changed my perspective about my W. I quit expecting things that she could not or would not give, and I started recognizing the things that she did give and would give.

I think what bothers me about the situation with your friend is that it was clear what the cause of this behavior was. And yes he should have changed it, but it is like saying to someone who is sick: "Alright I am tired of this, get well and let's get on with it." It does not happen that way.

I truely hope the new job will help him. I also hope that the separation will help your friend with OM.

FL, I have spent my life moving to new places and meeting new people. So what you are hearing is my adaption to that. If I sense a "flaw" in someone and most other people seem to get along with this person, it is clear it is MY problem. IN most cases that is the assumption I make.

There are few things I know for sure but here are some of them.

1. Credit is not a conserved quantity so be generous with it.
2. There are no experts in unsolved problems.
3. Life is a team sport.
4. No one leads their life like I would lead it for them.

Give those things, you can see where my advice is coming from.

I understand your H not wanting to get involved,clearly from your experience many are like him. I admire that you were willing to get involved and have spoken up. If I were you, I would speak to OM and let him know you don't want your friend or her family hurt,especially the children and he is/was contributing to just that outcome.

He needs to know you know and what you think of it. Beyond that there is little you can do. It is up to your friend and her H. Hopefully, he will wake up and start to see things differently. Hopefully, his depression will lift. Hopefully, your friend will wake up and start seeing things differently as well.

After you talk with OM, there really is little else you can do,but you have done more than many would and I admire you for that.

God Bless,

JL

JL, as always you have given me great things to think about. for my own growth more than anything else. thanks.

really the beauty of your thoughts are that it sure puts a person totally in control of their own life.

only other thing to say is i sure am glad i am still here. i like learning <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> thanks.

FL,

Are you to the point yet, where you realize you are NOT defined by your A, but you are being refined by the experience? Your problem is that you are a good person and you don't seem to know it.

It seems to me you have much to be proud of within your marriage and outside of it and yet you let your mistake drag you down. It is time you did take responsibility for the fact that you are a good person, you should be a relatively happy person and let the rest of the world go pound sand if they don't like you that way. I am serious.

You need to decide to see the good things and enjoy them while realizing that nothing and nobody is perfect. And I said NOONE RUNS THEIR LIFE, LIKE YOU WOULD RUN IT FOR THEM. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> That includes your H, but it his life to run. I would recommend that you enjoy the good things about how he does that while enjoying your life as well.

That is that perspective "thang" again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> The simple pleasures in life a worth far more than the grand ones IF they ever come.

There was an article on the web a few days ago about people who are happy and what they found is that the happiest people seemed to NEED less, than those that were not. The analogy was going out once a week to dinner vs. going out every night. At some point choosing another restruant becomes more of a hassle than the enjoyment one gets from the meal.

Just thoughts. Again, I really think you have done well on this and I admire you for doing it.

God Bless,

JL

hi JL,

once again i first read this last night but didn't respond right away. after reading

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your problem is that you are a good person and you don't seem to know it </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">everything turned to bla bla bla, kinda like how the grown ups sound to Charlie Brown.

so i came back to read it again this morning and tried to turn off the "bla bla bla" voice and really read. I will say I do certainly agree with:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You need to decide to see the good things and enjoy them while realizing that nothing and nobody is perfect. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">including looking at the good things regarding how my H runs his life. i do think i am getting that perspective "thang" down somewhat.

i do want to back up a bit with you regarding how a spouse can help another spouse get on board regarding making a marriage one that both are comfortable in. i agree that if a person works on changing their perspective to find the good and not focus on the bad their marriage can become more comfortable to be in with out any changes, however i also believe marriages can get to a state where the current conditions as a whole become a deal breaker and before one justs ups and walks away without looking back they want to try to do something to get their spouse to understand how they are feeling with the hopes that once the other spouse understands he/she will help. so what is a person to do???

i think i seek this answer more because i feel that knoweledge is exactly what i was missing in order to have steered my marriage out of the shark infested waters it was in.

i acknoweledge that maybe the point is that if i had had the right perspective all along, my vision of the marriage may not have ever gotten so negative but i'm not yet convinced that all that is needed is the right perspective in order for a marriage to be fufilling. because then it sounds like i am saying every marriage is good if you just look at it in the right way. sometimes marriages are NOT good and if all you do is change your perspective to be ok with the things that bother you, that is wrong!! as i write this, i realize that is exactly what my H did (and that is why it hits a nerve so strongly), he has stated that, it is true, he was not happy with everything in the marriage but he didn't think anything was a deal breaker so he just learned to live with it. the end result: he became comfortable in a less than fufilling marriage, and he disconnected from me and that became very uncomfortable for me to the point of being a deal breaker.

i have had a really hard time getting over his decision to do nothing. doing nothing is an action in and of itself

so i do get caught up internally with the question, what should i have done?

it was too late to have gone so far back in time to not allow the distance between us to have grown so much, that was not an option at that point in time, just as it is not an option for my friend right now. she can work on changing her perspective but she really needs her H to wake up too. the current state of things is a deal breaker for her. as was the current state of the relationship between my H and I. I should NOT have choosen to deal with the pain by having an A. prior to the A i tried to get H to go to counsoling with me, he refused, it was not until i made it clear, this is the end of the road for me, i want to seperate that he jumped on board. i guess i did not state any ultimatum at that point, i just said this is it, i want out. so are you saying that is what my friend should do? if she reviews at the end of the day and concludes that this is a deal breaker, should she insist on seperation without the offering a solution. that is what my "ultimatum" suggestion was about. offering a choice.

isn't that exactly what Plan B, as defined here, is? an ultimatum? it is stated nicely, "ok, heres the deal, i cannot continue to expose myself to your hurtful actions, i love you i want to protect that love, until you agree to NC, i do not want any interactions with you"

so my thought was to use the same concept in a different way. my thought is if i had done that, if i had not let my bank be completely dry but i had said, i need to protect the love i have left for you by distancing myself from your current state of detachment from me until you agree to work on re-attaching. living like we were was a deal breaker for me.

if i had done that without having the A, he would have responded the same way (since he didn't know about the A this is a concrete fact, me wanting to seperate jump kicked him into action, but not until he knew i was 100% serious about seperating)and i would of been able to respond to him finally getting on board quicker. as it was, the A made it so much harder for me to turn back around.

i don't know JL, this post turned out so long, too long. maybe i am trying to find something that just isn't there. but so many marriages seem to be in the state mine was in, so bad that one partner feels it must end. seems to me that before they really do decide to end it, helping them come up with one last action plan would be so good.

i had gotten my friend to admit that she still loved her H, my thought then was, ok, lets protect the little love you have left, seperate yourself from him until he wants to work on the marraige. and let him know that is what you are doing, tell him lovingly, i love you, but the way we have been living is hurting me too much. i have tried to tell you this and i have not been successful in getting thru. i need us to seperate until such a time that you agree to do these things. i acknoweldge that i should of kept the divorce word out of it. not saying do this or i'll divorce you, instead until we do this i need to seperate from you, making it clear i do NOT want to divorce.


thoughts?? or i have made your head spin too much?

Ah Young Grasshopper, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

What you need to understand is that perspective and a good perspective allows you to make the decisions you MUST make and then act on them in an appropriate way. You may find this surprising, but I am NOT a marriage at all cost sort of guy. In fact, I came here contemplating that possibility in my life. But, I realized I was making that decision without the proper perspective on things and it changed me.

Now read these two quotes from you </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i had gotten my friend to admit that she still loved her H, my thought then was, ok, lets protect the little love you have left, seperate yourself from him until he wants to work on the marraige. and let him know that is what you are doing, tell him lovingly, i love you, but the way we have been living is hurting me too much. i have tried to tell you this and i have not been successful in getting thru. i need us to seperate until such a time that you agree to do these things. i acknoweldge that i should of kept the divorce word out of it. not saying do this or i'll divorce you, instead until we do this i need to seperate from you, making it clear i do NOT want to divorce.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There happens to be a weekend in Grand Rapids MI scheduled for Sept 24-26. Please pray on this decision. Be flat out with Dave, either he goes or he packs his bags, bottomline, no negotiating.

Don't say it meanly in the heat of any argueing. Tell him it is the only way you can continue being his wife. Tell him your love for him is pretty much gone and unless you protect yourself from his refusal to work on this marriage it will be gone 100% (don't tell him it is already 100% gone, i know it feels like that for you but i think if you dig deep you will find you must have a small amount left in you that is willing to keep trying, even if it is just for the kids right now. again, this is not to say you are willing to stay in a bad marraige for the sake of the kids but you are willing to try just a little more for their sake.) So he either goes to the weekend and gets on board to improving your marriage on a substantial level or he moves out until he is willing to do so. After the weekend there are 6 follow-up sessions, make that manditory too. I would also insist on marriage counsoling. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You see from MY perspective the later is an ultimatum and the former is a clear statement of feelings and her perspective of the marriage. The former will NOT make him feel he is forced to do a "specific" thing or else while the later is like "marching orders."

Ideally, he should be given the opportunity to discuss with her what could and should be done and that MAY include going to the retreat, but it may include some other action. Finally, she needs to realize that some of this is her problem because she did NOT adequately state and enforce her boundaries especially with respect to his treatment of her and how her kids treated her.

FL, my feeling about the "perspective" issue is that it is what you need to have before you make any decision and a good perspective allows for better decisions. I realize that you picked up part of the message and not all of it and I realize that is because I failed to convey the message. A good perspective leads to good decisions and thereby good actions. I assumed (incorrectly, I apologize) that with perspective it would be obvious that decisions would follow.

Does this make more sense? This is very much like your work. First you must isolate the bug in the code and ONLY then can you decide on a patch, and that requires the perspective of what this piece of software is supposed to do. One needs to see the big picture. It is not just an issue of compile and execute.

Frankly I think many people view marriage that way. We compiled it and it executed therefore it must be good. Gargage in, gospel out.

In your world "perspective" comes from testing protocols, and then constant testing right? Then and only then can you make a decision as to what to do. I don't view marriage as much different in many ways.

I think you are right. First she must decide if she really loves him. Then she must decide what particular behaviors are bothering her. Then she must decide if he is doing them to hurt her or because he is hurt. Then she must decide if it is possible for him to change, and if he was a good guy before losing his job the odds are high that he can and will. Only after all of this does she gain any perspective on the issues and the marriage at hand. There is more, but I think you see the point. It really is a PROCESS.

Once all of this is done, she needs to talk to him, she needs to be honest with him, and he in fact may decide that he cannot be married to a woman that has cheated on him so her decision is made. If he decides that he will try, she still must make decisons, but hopefully she will have gain some much needed perspective on the situation, her marriage, and her family in order to make the best decision.

I hope this has cleared up my previous statements a bit.

God Bless,

JL

I think you should look at your husbands advice on this, he prompted you to stay away. If he wants nothing to do with it, do you really think he wants you involved in it. Look at the weight it is putting upon your shoulders. I think he may be passively trying to protect both of you in distancing from it all.

Secondly, I think you see God working on you in a very specifc way. You have lied to and betrayed your husband again, in a state when you are trying to restore trust. I have seen your post on your bible study. My fww went through that not long after coming home. She thoroughly enjoyed it. I suspect that as you delve deeper and deeper into that study, God is gonna work on that whole truth issue, I'm sorry to say. I'm not sure how you bring that conversation up even, I know my wife isn't completely honest with me still, and it hurts like hell, it would even hurt more having her admit it to me. So, be prepared for him to have to cope with it all. I wouldn't try to sugarcoat it with anything. It would be like trying to lie to God about your motivation or justification for sinning, and honestly, there isn't a good enough reason.

My advice specifically about your friend, and you should know this by now, tell her husband. Let's face it, until he knows the truth, they aren't fixing anything. Even if she moves on from other man, they still have that issue on their marriage, and he won't even have the liberty of knowing why he just can't connect with his wife. Then, when you have told him, (with your husbands help), you should wash your hands of it all. help point him in the direction to get help for his marriage, but then, clear yourself of it. If he comes to you ---- YOUR HUSBAND ---- for advice (you should never counsel a man in marriage trouble, as I know you know), then your husband can guide him. The truth will set you free.

As for your friend. Well, why would she tell you? Interesting isn't it? Think about it, why does someone tell? Is it perhaps that it was too much weight for her? Perhaps she is begging for you to do what she can't, and tell her husband? Perhaps she needs someone to know for the affair to be exciting? I Don't know, but I think she told you specifically because she knows you are a survivor of this and she wants your help in survivng, no matter what she says on the outside.

Hang in there.

JL,

Grasshopper is stressed out finishing a test plan before she can go jump out of the office for a mini vacation (although i have to interrupt it by coming in for a lab session at midnight on Sat!!)

i see your point about how the request can be seen as an ultimatum, which will not be effective. in both cases, the same request is being made but how you make it is very important. point understood completely.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Finally, she needs to realize that some of this is her problem because she did NOT adequately state and enforce her boundaries especially with respect to his treatment of her and how her kids treated her.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">very much agree with you on this point. this is what i failed to do as well. in IC we have been talking alot about boundaries, and how there were none in my family when i was growing up (especially apparent by what i let myself be "talked" into doing for my brother, not like he physically forced me, which bled right into how i interacted with my first boyfriend and so on...) and how i need to learn how to communicate and then enforce my boundaries now, especially with my Mom!! but also with H. and i understand that i don't have to put my foot down and get all defensive, especially with H. i need to nurture feelings of saftey with H. i felt no safety growing up. no one really seemed to be looking out for us. i have to work hard to keep the feelings from childhood of neglect influencing my thoughts about H now. H understands this too and he is helping me.

RookKev,

i want to be sure to address your post too. first thanks for posting.

my first response was... H told me i could talk to W, he just didn't want to talk about it. but then he also did state he didn't think i should get involved. i'm thinking you are right, he is passively saying he does not want me involved.

so why you continued to tell me to tell her H and why i am continuing to respond to the rest of the post, i don't know!!!

as for the lying about who knows about my A, this occured shortly after d-day. but i have re-confirmed the lie so i guess you are right, i have lied to H again, in a state when I am trying to restore trust. and you are right, that is not good <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know my wife isn't completely honest with me still, and it hurts like hell, it would even hurt more having her admit it to me </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">but you still would want her to be honest, yes?

i very much want to be 100% honeset from here on out but i find i cannot do that if there are still lies hanging around unconfessed. and i know the longer i wait the worse it is. ugh!!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then, when you have told him, (with your husbands help), </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">now you are the one in fantasy land.... H is not going to help me tell him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> you should never counsel a man in marriage trouble </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">agree!!! but i do not actually know the H that well anyway. I know the wife more, worked directly with her many years ago, stayed in contact. never worked directly with H but i was on same bowling team with them both (and OM) for a bit. H was not a very fun guy to be on a bowling team with actually, too serious!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think she told you specifically because she knows you are a survivor of this and she wants your help in survivng, no matter what she says on the outside </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">agree again. and for that reason i don't want to let her down.

at this point, with friend and H moved, i don't have a way to contact her H. I can still find OM easily, he is not in my building but he is close enough that i could drop him a visit.

Hmmmmm,

I proceeded to discuss it because I believe that is the course of action you are bound on taking. I don't believe you are able to just set this aside and let it run it's course. She is your friend, and I personally understand having a friend involved in marital troubles just as you seem to be resolving your own, is a terrible weight, and it ANGERS you (me). In my own case, I have no proof of adultery, just the fact that the husband has moved out and said standard a stuff to the wife. So, I have a good taste of what you are fighting with, but, in this case, I think the wife probably knows more than me, and for that I am thankful. The 'news' I get is conveyed to me by my wife, and I do not really talk to the wife, only a quick phone call on a rare occasion to let her know that my wife and I are praying specifically for her and her husband.

So, I know how hard it is to step away from it. I think I described pretty well the course of action for you to take on it all. I think you should talk with your husband about how important it is for you to tell your friend's husband about what you know. Explain to him how it is important for you to do it, but, you value his opinion on it, and need his help in doing it. Explain to him how you KNOW you can't have this kind of talk with a man one on one. If that doesn't snap his head to attention, well, then, I think he is living with his head in the sand and you really should focus only on your own marriage and not your friends. Let's face it, be flat out honest with him about it, don't glamor it up, paint a very clear picture, leave no room for misinterpretation. Have him REPEAT what you have told him, in his own words, so that you both are communicating. (The whole drive through window... 1 big mac, 1 coke, 1 fry please... yes, that will be 1 big mac, 1 coke, and 1 fry... your total is $4.99 please pull forwards) I do believe that although he said he wants nothing to do with it, he might also find out how therapuetic it can be to help someone else having trouble.

Now as for your REAL problem. Yes, having her admit to me the lies is what I desire out of the options I'm given. Having the lies stop is more of what I would prefer. You should also ante up to your husband, and confide in him how you talked with more people than you led him to believe in the start of your recovery. Perhaps you have a specific reason for each person you talked to, but regardless, it doesn't really matter. Those people aren't really judging him, in my belief, they would be judging you for your actions, so, perhaps that may be some comfort for him. Granted, we all know they have no place to judge at all, but, generally speaking the ws is much better at handling people 'judging' them than the bs. Interestingly enough the irony in that one. I know I deal a great amount with my own personal introspection of what kind of man am I, who would allow this marriage to go on...? Thankfully, my answer is right in front of me, a Godly man, who is obedient to his Father. I think about a day when I no longer believe my wife is hiding things from me, who shares with me openly her mind, and her emotions, and that hopefully those emotions aren't tainted against me. But, I can tell you each lie just works against you and entraps you, I'm sure you know that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't believe you are able to just set this aside and let it run it's course </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">had to laugh at that comment!!! am i that obvious??? (you don't have to actually answer that question.)

i didn't know your story. i didn't realize when you said your wife is still lieing to you it was about having an affair at all. i thought maybe it was about smaller details. not that any lie is ok. i must admit, i have this little voice inside of me saying, i told him the important thing (that i had an A), we are doing good, can't the rest of it just go away?? (i probably dont really want an answer to that question either <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )

i feel sad more than angry for my friend and her H. I just want to help!!! It is really hard watching a train wreck in action.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do believe that although he said he wants nothing to do with it, he might also find out how therapuetic it can be to help someone else having trouble.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm pretty sure he means he wants nothing to do with it. But i agree with your thought and perhaps in the end that is how it will turn out.

I will approach the subject one more time. Being extremely clear!! My H does not know this H enough at all to be the one to tell him. But I do want H to enthusiastically agree before i do anything so that in escense we are doing it together (even if we are not physically doing it together) and i will make it very clear that is because i do not want to do anything behind his back. THAT should snap his head to attention!!

If H cannot get to a point where he enthusiastically agrees then am i forced to do nothing?? That is going to be hard for me to enthusiastically agree to. (light bulb moment, what i just realized is that the thing to do is first SUCCESSFULLY POJA with H)

We (my family) leaves this afternoon for 6 days at our lake house. H and I will have lots of relaxed time together. We are all really looking forward to this final get-away before school starts. I don't want to spoil our time there at all but I will approach him.

thanks again for your time.

Finally Learning,

I think Rookev is right on about you telling the truth to your husband. This is the most important A issue going on in your life right now.

You wrote:
"i didn't know your story. i didn't realize when you said your wife is still lieing to you it was about having an affair at all. i thought maybe it was about smaller details. not that any lie is ok. i must admit, i have this little voice inside of me saying, i told him the important thing (that i had an A), we are doing good, can't the rest of it just go away?? (i probably dont really want an answer to that question either )"

DO NOT listen to your smally voice. It is leading your astray. Yes, it all has to come out. As you see from your friend coming to you, the rest does not go away. The longer you wait the worse it gets. My husband told much of the truth to me but also "left things out". Like that he didn't use a condom, they did go out to get drinks, she came to our house while I was there. These things were much more painful to hear later. I don't know if my marriage will survive and it is the lies that is killing it more than the A. My WH too thought our recovery was going well, why risk it. He finally realized that to have an honest open relationship, the truth had to come out. Now we have almost no recovery. Trust has to be re-established and I feel like we are at square one. we might as well not have had 6 months of recovery. The truth must come out!
Radical honesty is RADICAL

Gillian, BS, 36
WH, 38
married 11yrs
PA 11/1/03-12/18/03
2nd d-day 7/7/04--more details about PA and
EA 1996--?


d-day1 12/18/03

thanks for your post.

i must admit, your post scares me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now we have almost no recovery. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">it does not seem like you have no recovery going, it seems to me like you have a stronger recovery going then i do. don't punish your H for finally figuring it out. i understand you wish he would of done it all sooner, but to me it sounds like you would rather have the truth later than never (given the choice of being totally honest from the start is something he cannot go back and re-make)

are you more bothered that he was not 100% honest on d-day or are you upset that he did not use condoms, they did go out to get drinks, ...

if it is the fact that he was not 100% honest at the time, then shouldn't at least part of you feel good that </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He finally realized that to have an honest open relationship, the truth had to come out. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">so saying you have almost no recovery seems harsh

did you force these details out or did he do it on his own one day out of the blue?

with all that said, even if your posts scares me, it does not change the fact that i should be 100% honest regardless of H reaction (or my fear of his reaction).

i do hope that reading my post, you might have more of an insight into how your H felt and why he faltered when d-day first occured and lied about some details. and that maybe that insight can help you heal.

Dear Finally Learning,

When I said we had almost no recovery--I meant almost none but not zero. My WH is staying in the basement. We are still in the same house--still talking conversationally, still taking care of our girls but we move ahead at a snail's pace. Please note: we still move ahead!!!


The lying about the condoms are a big deal to me becuase that is about my life and my health-- I have another post called worried about STD's on this.
But most of all for me it was the lying. I BEGGED my WH to tell me the truth for months after d'day because I felt he was holding something back, because he was reluctant to discuss the affair. I told him I could take anything as long as he told me at the beginning so I could start to really heal.
Shirley Glass wrote very elegantly in "Not Just Friends" about why the BS needs to construct a story about the A. For example, one of the things I comforted myself with after the PA is that "at least he cared enough about me to use a condom"--except of course he didn't. See how my recovery was disupted--the comforts I used for myself were false. When you think you have hit rock bottom, and you are making a new start with your WS, to find out then that he can't even tell you the truth then, makes you wonder if he is serious about recovery. It maked you wonder if protecting himself is more important than recovering the marriage. Mnay of the things my WH lied about were stupid things--so why lie--just to keep power over me?

When you keep secrets in a marriage, you exert power over your spouse--you have the information and the BS doesn't know what is going on. Something very disorienting about being the BS is the feeling that you had no clue, that you don't even know what truth is anymore.

yes my WH did come clean, once I showed him the Shirley Glass chapter. I don't know yet if it is too late.

Secrets are crazy making. Do you know how stupid I felt begging him to tell me the truth when he insisted he was telling the truth---but he wasn't telling the truth.

Gillian

Gillian,

thank you for your post, very enlightening, very humbling too. i am very sorry for your pain. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> i hope you both can continue to move forward together.