WW told me yesterday that she wanted to get caller ID at our house. I asked why and said that she got an email from OM saying that OMW wants our phone number so she can talk to her. It was a warning to be ready for a call. Obviously WW doesn't want to talk to OMW because it will be very unpleasant. The email said that OMW is very angry and irrational etc.

WW and OM decided shortly after OMW and I found out (separately but in the same week) that they would stop all contact and go to work on their marriages.

I have two issues here. One is that there is contact between WW and OM even though they both have told me that there would be none. I'm glad WW told me of the contact, but I already knew there had been from snooping. I asked if this had been the only contact (knowing it wasn't) and was of course lied to.

The other is that OMW is acting like a total freak, which is understandable, could be driving OM to WW. I am working hard at Plan A and don't need her screwing it up! I am tempeted to call her and clue her in to the MB ideas so that we are working the same angle from both sides. I have not spoken to OMW at all since the affair was exposed to each of us. I'm considering just giving her my copy of SAA!

Is this a good idea? I see the dangers of getting into a place with regular communication with OMW, but wonder if it's worth the risk to try to get her on track.

<small>[ August 13, 2004, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: Nemo16 ]</small>

Where are you getting the info about OM's W being a freak? From the WS or OM? If so, remember the source.

Even though your W told you of the contact there is no guarantee you are being told the truth. Even if your W is repeating it exactly as it was told, you don't know if the OM is the source and if he is portraying the OM's W accurately.

Even if the OM's W is a bit strung out over this, can you really blame her? Maybe this is what she needs for closure. She certainly has that right.

Let your W know that these are just some of the consequences she will have to deal with. You can help her through it (be with her when the call comes in and put it on a speaker phone but if that is what the OM'w needs, maybe strong consideration s/b given.

JMHO,
L.

I agree with Orchid. How do YOU know OMW is freaking? And so what if she is? Number 1, this is your wife's doo-doo, she needs to face up to it. Number 2, OM and WW are both liers, right. I mean logically, you KNOW WW has been lying to you...and you know logically that OM lies to his wife and is probably lying to yours...um? Hello??? This is me smacking you with a mackerel! They are protecting each other....from what? Discomfort. Sorry on both parts. Time to clean the doo-doo up. Sure it's messy and stinky, but it's not YOUR job. It almost sounds from your post that you kinda agree with wife NOT speaking to OMW....and honestly, the only thing I see it doing is driving a wedge between OM and your WW. They are both afraid that the light of day (the truth coupled with you and OMWs knowledge of the A) will kill this evil darkness loving secret (the A).

And DO contact OMW....give her the site addy! If both of you are plan Aing, those two won't have a chance in h-e-double-hockey sticks!

- Kimmy

I would encourage your W to talk to her victim and face her anger like a big girl instead of running like a coward and calling her a "freak." That is outrageous. The "freaks" are the ones who lied to and betrayed their spouses. First she is betrayed in the worst possible manner and now she is called names because she is rightfully angry.

How about your W pick up the phone and call the woman and apologize for her dirty deeds? That would show TRUE remorse for her actions and would go a long way in redeeming herself.

<small>[ August 13, 2004, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nemo16:
<strong> I am tempeted to call her and clue her in to the MB ideas so that we are working the same angle from both sides. I have not spoken to OMW at all since the affair was exposed to each of us. I'm considering just giving her my copy of SAA!

Is this a good idea? I see the dangers of getting into a place with regular communication with OMW, but wonder if it's worth the risk to try to get her on track. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You SHOULD clue her in on MB, of course! It would have been a good thing to do when you talked to her the first time if you were already on MB (sorry, not familiar w/ your story). What dangers do you forsee for you and OMW being in communication, especially since your W and OM have been in contact??

I agree with Orchid, Nios and ML, consider the source of the supposedly "freaking out" OMW info. Talk to her yourself. If you both have the same goal that is, to separate your spouses from each other then what's the problem? Two heads (and eyes) are better than one.

I appreciate the kick in thea a$$ and understand your questions. There are a few things that make our story a bit different than the standard A. OM is a VP of the company that I work for. Not directly my boss, but my superior non the less.

When I told WW I knew about it, she denied. Later she said it was on advice of her lawyer but she couldn't live with it once I called her on it. Later that week, OMW found a letter from OM to WW and confronted him on it. That day, both couples met and OM and WW told us that they were done and going to move forward with the marriages. However, WW told me she was sick of the lies and couldn't live them anymore. She said she would answer any question that I asked though said she thought it would not be good if I asked too many.

It's funny as I read it, but even though I know she is lying about how much contact they've had, I do believe her about what the correspondance has been in the contact she's admitted to. Maybe I'm an idiot, but I think she is basicly an honest person.

I know OM very well and I know OMW well. I have seen her(OMW) jealous rages, so I can imagine what she is going through now. We were all at a wedding together a couple years back. OM was a groomsmen and paired with an attactive bridesmaid. The bridesmaid was single and kept asking OM to dance. Eventually OMW got pissed and told him if he danced anymore she'd leave. At the time, I thought she was being unreasonable. Now I think maybe she knew something.

While "freak" is definatley not the right word, I firmly believe she is not helping my situation or hers. That word was my emotions taking over here since I am keeping them at bay at home. I'm sorry.

I have seen email from OM that leads me to believe that OMW is acting very emotional and angry etc, all the types of things that would drive OM away.

I have my own NC issues to deal with WW from my end, but of OMW didn't make it so easy so OM to want to talk to WW it would be much easier.

I'm just afraid if I get involved with OMW that it will betray the trust that I have built and and continuing to build with WW. I believe WW in her account of the A. WW told me that OM is not telling OMW the full extent of the A. She said this in our first discussion of NC. I don't want to get into a situation where I am just giving OMW info she doesn't know. Don't forget the guy is my boss!

I don't care about the facts of the A. I love my WW. I want her back. While I have asked for NC, I know there has been contact. I am in plan A and need to ride it out.

Since I am familiar enough with OM & OMW, I can picture how they are acting. I can totally picture OMW "freaking out". SHe just turned 40 ( a very attractive 40 I might add) but WW is 30, so I can see that being a big problem for her. I just need OMW to be rational and understanding of the MB principles to get through this.

But I am worried about what WW and OM will think when they find out. I have told WW that I am considering talking to OMW if nothing else just to talk to someone going through the same thing as I am am. WW said she doesn't feel she has the right to tell me what I an and can not do.

So I ask again. Should I talk to OMW?

Nemo, I agree with most of the others I think. OMW in my story has been the big villain too. My WW said she was a loose cannon, manipulative, controlling, nasty, crazy. Then I met her, and she's none of those things.

Directing her to MB is not a bad idea, but asking her to follow your principles in her situation is I think a little out of line. The impact of her actions right now is probably less than you fear it is anyway, and could be the opposite.

GC

<small>[ August 13, 2004, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: graycloud ]</small>

Nemo, I think your best hope for no contact is to develop contact with the OMW and keep each other apprised of the situation. You can be a great help to each other.

Right now it is your W that needs to work on rebuilding trust [not you] and she is not doing the job if she is staying in contact with the OM. As long as she is in ANY contact, she is continuing the affair.

So, I think your best bet in ending contact is talking to the OMW, letting her know that her H has been in touch and answering any questions she has.

She has been victimized long enough, please don't add to the injustice and make her out to be the bad guy.

And I really would suggest that you encourage your W to speak to her and apologize for what she has done. The OMW has every reason to be outraged and maybe a simple show of decency and remorse for the damage she has caused is in order.

I agree with graycloud, please send her here to us and let us help her.

Nemo,

I am with Melody and the others.

Contact OMW and tell her that her husband may not have given her the whole story (he might have by now, you never know).

Suggest that OMW get the whole story from YOUR wife. Somebody owes OMW the truth and if OM doesn't have the courage to do it, your wife is the one it falls to.

And then, ask OMW to get together with you to compare stories. Not saying you'll find anything "new" or alarming, but it can go a long way to helping you build trust in your WW.

BTW, if they are still in contact and lying to cover it up, it does not bode well for your marriage. Healing is hard to come by when you know you're be lied to, no?

~ Snow

<small>[ August 13, 2004, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: Snowbelle ]</small>

ML/GC/Snow,

Thanks for the thoughts. Maybe I do put too much trust in WW. She says that she doesn't think she can love me anymore, so I am very afraid to put any pressure on her. In fact I fear that if I have contact with OMW that it will only push WW away. I so not want to be intruthfull to WW, so if I have contact with OMW, I will tell WW. I think that will be bad.

Believe me, I do not think that OMW is the "bad guy". I know her well and she is a fantastic woman with a great 7 year old daughter. I know she is a victem here, but plan A is not about right and wrong.

The complication is that I am fairly certain that OM is not being truthful about the length and details of the A to OMW. WW has been to me as far as I can tell. OM does have a significant affect on my professional life, so I need to tread lightly. Basically alienating OM entirely will mean a new career for me. I would gladly accpet that if it meant a complete marriage with WW, but who knows what will happen in the end. Hope fore the best, but prepare for the worst.

I think I will contact her. If nothing else we will be able to relate to each other in ways not many thqat we know can understand. I'm not convinced that WW and OMW should speak, but I do appreciate all opinions.

Thank you.

<small>[ August 13, 2004, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: Nemo16 ]</small>

Nemo, she doesn't think she loves you because she is in the throes of an addictive affair. STILL. She will STAY that way until contact ends.

The affair has not ended. She is still in contact. Just going along to get along will do nothing but allow your W to continue her affair and damage your M further. You should be doing everything to end this affair or you will lose your W. You should not be HELPING HER destroy your marriage by trying to assuage her at all costs.

It is her AFFAIR that will "push her away," not your efforts to end her affair. She has no place to go.

You should NOT trust your W. That is insane. You shouldn't trust an untrustworthy person. Trust must be EARNED and she has shown she cannot be trusted yet. Staying in contact with the OM is NOT condusive to trustbuilding, Nemo.

For now, you should be doing everything to end this affair. And I would NOT tell your W in advance of your contact with the OMW. You are not obliged to tell her the things you are doing to help end this affair. There is no virtue in exposing your efforts to end this affair. Otherwise, you only circumvent your efforts to end the affair and do nothing to help your marriage.

Radical honesty is for RECOVERY, and you ain't in recovery yet. You don't disarm and put your shield down when you are being fired on. You wait until the firing ends lest you end up a dead man.

The reason that WW and OMW should eventually speak is because your W owes that woman an apology, wouldn't you say? I would encourage her to do the right thing and not be a coward. But in the meantime, I think you should contact OMW and collaberate with her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nemo16:
<strong> OM does have a significant affect on my professional life, so I need to tread lightly. Basically alienating OM entirely will mean a new career for me. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Shouldn't he be the one who treads lightly, Nemo? Doesn't he have much more to lose than you? What would happen if the word got out at work that he had an affair with your W? What would happen to his reputation?

Nemo,

Did you say you love your WW? Wouldn't it be easier to love your wife? There is a difference you know. Big difference.

If you love your WW, you will allow yourself to enable the A. You will allow yourself to be the doormat and take all the abuse, then tell the WS you love her. Why should she change? You love her as a WS.

If you love your W, you will not accept the WS actions. You would contact the OM's W to find out the truth. Form alliances with those NOT in the fog. Work hard, study hard, read MB and other materials, go to MC or IC as much as possible, call Jennifer @ MB for phone counseling, implement a good plan A then after sufficient time, plan B as needed.

JMho,
L.

Nemo - some very important points to consider.

Contact OMW ASAP, assuming she is not handling her side of the affair properly - freaking or not - and get her a copy of SAA. Send her to this site. Whether you've heard the truth or not about what she's doing, odds are she's doing more harm than good. How much did you - or any of us know - before getting the information here? Some of it is intuitive, but much is not.

If she is freaking, you have to try to get her here so she can see that her actions are only giving more justification to OM for leaving her. OMW in my sitch was hopelessly, and still is, in attack mode four lears later and all she's accomplished is providing a continuous excuse for the affairees that they are better people, detracting from the real villians. So, your fears that OMW is ruining your chances can be very real.

Introduce her to MB. Even then, it may not work. The OMW in my sitch couldn't be calmed and I am certain it hurt my efforts. Eventually I had to cut her off from me because of accusations that she and I were plotting to harass the affairees. Even then, her continuous attacks were used by my WS to discredit me because she (my WS) claimed I was encouraging her (OMW). The affairess will grasp ANY reason to discredit the BSs as it shifts responsibility for wrong decisions from them.

DO NOT TELL YOU WIFE YOU'RE COMMUNICATING WITH OMW!!!!!!!!! Like snooping, this is necessary affair research and any artificial need for honesty with your wife is no obligation of yours at this point.

OM is a VP at your employer and in your management chain?

Pennies from heaven!!!!

Immediately go over his head to his boss and watch this cockroach scurry. Have solid evidence. Unless this is an adult X rated movie production studio, his butt will be toast. Again, DO NOT TELL your wife you're doing this. What kind of company is this? If it's a large company with a national or regional presence, I'd love to contact them myself and ask a few pointed questions that I know will get their attention.

On second thought, you need to weigh this workplace exposure very carefully before you proceed.

First determine what policies your company has regarding sexual harassment. This may not be sexual harassment, per se, but the effect is the same. You are in a chilled environment due to the inappropriate sexual behavior of your boss.

Does your company have an employee concerns program? Does it have an employee assistance program?

Please report back on this so we can put more heads on it.

WAT

<small>[ August 14, 2004, 07:08 AM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

Nemo -

As far as your job is concerned -

How can you possibly continue to work for a man who has had an affair with your wife? I think you should get your resume in place just in case this backfires on YOU. He probably will be the one to go, because his position demands a certain reputation of integrity. He has already shown he doesn't have that. But you must act in an intelligent manner.

Are you a direct report to this VP?

I am in a management position in my company and I know that this type of behaviour would demand immediate attention from the powers that be.

As management we are required to attend many workshops on Sexual Harassment. It is a huge, costly problem for big companies, not only because of lawsuits but because of what it does to production from the company morale aspect. This probably would fall into that catagory for lack of another catagory to place it in. I could be very wrong, but it still is a big, big nono.

If I were you I would first do what WAT said and contact human resources, they are trained in this type of situation. When it is someone in authority to you who is causing the problem, then human resources is the recommended place to start. This may also protect your position in your company, if he decides to start playing dirty with you, to save his own butt. Keeping quiet to protect your position may very well cause you more problems. Please go to human resources first and soon.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by worthatry:
<strong> On second thought, you need to weigh this workplace exposure very carefully before you proceed.

First determine what policies your company has regarding sexual harassment. This may not be sexual harassment, per se, but the effect is the same. You are in a chilled environment due to the inappropriate sexual behavior of your boss.

Does your company have an employee concerns program? Does it have an employee assistance program?

Please report back on this so we can put more heads on it.

WAT </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WAT,

Regarding our business, it is abit complicated. It's basically a manufacturing business that provides a custom "sports" product for competition & recreation. We are some of the best in our sport so it is kind of like PGA tour guys selling golf clubs. Anyway, it is an international company based in the US that does about 100 million a year in sales. The company is structured in a way that there are a number of sales offices around the world that are owned by the company. The managing partners in each office (of which I am one) get compensated based on the profitability of our particular office. It's kind of like we are a franchise, only we are owned by the company.

There is a central home office, but many of the upper managment guys do not work at the headquarters, but work and live where other offices are. This is the case with OM. So he works in our building, but we really don't work together.He is the only VP in the company and there are really only 3 people who are above him in the company. I don't know what would happen if I went over his head. Our company is not big enough to have a HR dept., so short of just going to one of the 3 guys over him I wouldn't know what to do. And I have no idea how that would go. Other than worrying about the legality of it all, OM would be considered more valuable to the company than I am.

Unfotunatly (or fortunatley depending on your perspective) our company is the clear market leader with a far superiour product to our competition. It would be hard to leave and work for one of our competitors and make a living as good as the one I do now. I worked for two of our competitors when I forst got into the business and moved up to the best as I went. Leaving would be a backwards move, so I'd just get out of the industry.

But, the work part is totally secondary to me.

I am strongly leaning towards contacting OMW next week. I just need to think it through how I want that to go and the terms I am going to work with in the contact.

<small>[ August 14, 2004, 07:51 PM: Message edited by: Nemo16 ]</small>

I am not WAT but my advice to you is to make sure you have documented proof of the affair, and contact a lawyer whose specialty is workplace law. If you have to leave this company because of this affair you are going to want the option of sueing, to make up for your personal career loss, financial loss, personal pain and the possible destruction of your family. Be proactive in this just in case.

Don't make the mistake of feeling powerless, when you have the power in your hands.

Nemo,

Any VP who would have an affair with an employees spouse is not valuable at all. He is doing the company more harm than good.

I don't know if you are in sales or ops but it would be my guess that you are far more valuable to the company than he.

I really suggest you consult an attorney in case you end up without a job, or in case you find you can no longer stomach working for this scum bag.

I agree with weaver. Get some legal advice to see what recourse you have from a practical and legal standpoint.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nemo16:
<strong>He is the only VP in the company and there are really only 3 people who are above him in the company. I don't know what would happen if I went over his head.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We know what will happen if you DON'T go over his head.

Nothing.

Even if there is no legal recourse for you - which I find hard to believe - I can't imagine any business would condone one of it's managers boinking an employee's wife. I suggest you research the legal avenues and in the meantime keep your ear to the ground on what's going on with the affair. If no legal avenue turns up, and the affair continues, you have nothing to lose by going to one of the three bigger guys. (Make sure you pick one who's married and has kids and seems to have the most integrity.)

Please give me a hint as to what this speciality product is. Is your MB name a clue? It's a long shot, but I may be a customer.

WAT