Suzet:

Thanks for your note. I think my wife is thinking in a rational way today but her flashbacks and concerns are real for her. I am sure she is still feeling a sense of love for the OM, but like she says, she views this as her punishment for allowing a relationship to be built. The fact that she can now share this with me is a strong indicater that she is doing well in recovery. She is being honest with me and I am able to listen and help her talk through her feelings.

I reminded her when a little bit of reality was added to the affair of how much turmoil it brought out with the OM and even his parents. I told her the relationship was never tested in a real life setting and if it had been, I don't think it would have survived long term. She actually defended the feelings that the OM had for her and still believes the relationship had a good chance of success. I told her she was being niave and that within a few years, she would have been dropped for a woman 20 years younger than her to enable the OM to have kids. I further reiterated with her that Dr. Phil has a couple of cases on his web page that spouses who married as a result of an affair never can completely trust each other after they marry each other. Further, one or both cannot remove their guilt they feel on the inside of the family destruction they caused due to their past lies and deception. I was upsetting her some but I plan on continueing to add reality to her thinking as these thoughts surface and are discussed.

We are not fighting and I believe we will be fine.

TooSoon

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> The fact that she can now share this with me is a strong indicator that she is doing well in recovery. She is being honest with me and I am able to listen and help her talk through her feelings.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Toosoon, this is wonderful and I’ glad things are this way for you and your W! I believe honest and open communication is the single, most important ingredient in a M. If a spouse experience temptations, but have an honest and open relationship with his/her spouse about everything, he/she will also have the willingness & courage to share these temptations and in this way take steps to affair-proof the M and take preventive steps from extramarital attachments from happening. Secrecy & deception is often the first indicators of an A, but if there is total openness and honesty between couples, these things will not happen.

Blessings,
Suzet

Yes Suzet, I agree with you 100%. I also believe in doing preventative maintenance now and I never even thought about it before.

Hofefully Dan's wife will turn the corner soon and head back to where she belongs.

TooSoon

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Yes Suzet, I agree with you 100%. I also believe in doing preventative maintenance now and I never even thought about it before.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Toosoon, isn’t it sad how ignoring society and individuals can be about marriage and family in general? As I’ve just said to another poster on the thread “Accidental Affairs?”, I think if books like “Not Just Friends” by Shirley Glass and other similar books on Marriage and Infidelity, could be required reading before couples are allowed to marry, there would be less people unwittingly setting themselves up for affairs and caused unnecessary pain and damage to their marriages and loved ones…unnecessary pain & damage which could be prevented by enough knowledge and information in the first place.

Here is some guidelines on affair-proofing a M and keep temptations at arms length (this is from an article I found on the Internet):

There is no such thing as an affair-proof marriage. But couples who want to protect their unions from infidelity can be mindful of the dangers. To keep a marriage healthy:

* Stay honest with your partner. ''Honesty is the trump card for preventing affairs,'' says Peggy Vaughan, who has studied affairs for more than two decades. Her Web site is dearpeggy.com. ''Make a commitment to sharing your attractions and temptations.'' That helps to avoid acting on them. Dishonesty and deception cause affairs to flourish, Vaughan says.

* Monitor your marriage. ''Realize if there is something missing,'' says psychologist Kimberly Young of St. Bonaventure University in southwest New York state. ''Be willing to try to fix it.'' Assess whether needs are being met.

* Stay alert for temptations. ''Be very careful of getting involved in the first place,'' Young says. ''Know the dangers. You can be drawn to an affair as to a drug. And once you are past a certain point of emotional connection, it is very hard to go into reverse.''

* Don't flirt. ''That is how affairs start,'' says Bonnie Eaker Weil, whose Web site, www.makeupdontbreakup .com, features tips for preventing infidelity. ''Flirting is not part of an innocent friendship. If you think there might be a problem with someone you flirt with, there probably is a problem.''

* Recognize that work can be a danger zone. ''Don't lunch or take private coffee breaks with the same person all the time,'' psychologist Shirley Glass says.

* Beware of the lure of the Internet. ''Emotional affairs develop quickly, in maybe a few days or weeks online, where it might take a year at the office,'' Young says. ''There is safety behind the computer screen.''

* Keep old flames from reigniting. ''If you value your marriage, think twice about having lunch with one,'' Glass says. Invite your partner along.

* Value the intimacy of your marriage. ''Reveal as much of yourself to one another as possible,'' Atlanta psychiatrist Frank Pittman says. ''You will find it less necessary to form an intimate friendship with someone else.''

* Make sure your social network supports marriage. ''Surround yourself with happily married friends who don't believe in fooling around,'' Glass says.

<small>[ October 13, 2004, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Suzet:

I will print this tonight and give it my wife. We both remain committed to making this marriage work. Thanks for the post.

TooSoon

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As I’ve just said to another poster on the thread “Accidental Affairs?”, I think if books like “Not Just Friends” by Shirley Glass and other similar books on Marriage and Infidelity, could be required reading before couples are allowed to marry, there would be less people unwittingly setting themselves up for affairs and caused unnecessary pain and damage to their marriages and loved ones…unnecessary pain & damage which could be prevented by enough knowledge and information in the first place.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Prior to Wife and I marrying, we had to attend a series of pre-nuptual counselling sessions. Never once, that I can remember, did the word infidelity come up. Religion, child rearing, work, and money seemed to be the issues.

I agree that the issue of, "how affairs happen" should be part of every pre-marriage program. I think EA's particularly are misunderstood by so many anyway.

TooSoon

Hi Guys,

I quite enjoyed your exchanges. Although I must admit that it is with a tinge of jealousy. How I long for the day when W can open up to me and tell me how she felt about the whole mess. TS I do hope that when our daughter comes home next weekend my wife wouldn't move back out when she leaves. But I must not expect this too much. I must just content myself with the fact that for the few days that our daughter is home, W would stay in our room. Our daughter plans to come home every fortnight so I can look forward to these "dates". I am deep in Plan A and I agree with you about making our home a nice warm place to be and not a cold forbidding arena where gladiators come to fight. I don't think the analogy is quite right, but I think you know what I mean. Since I changed shifts I've cooked dinner once and am spending more time at home while W is not in bed. When I was doing the late shift she is normally in bed when I get home. So there is now a semblamce of domestic balance although I recognise that there are still mountains to climb and setbacks to face. At this stage NC is very difficult since they work together, but I am positive that text messaging has stopped and so has seeing each other during breaks. So I think we are moving forward, albeit at a very slow pace. Well I've got all the time in the world.
I agree with both of you about pre-marital education on how to conduct a marriage especially the dangers of affairs. I absolutely advocate some type of pre-nuptial seminar on how to nurture a relationship that is for life.
TS I am indeed very happy (a bit jealous too) that you and your wife are coming to terms with what has happened. Judging by the time and patience you expended for my benefit I'm sure that you will be able to guide both you and your wife out of the turbulent seas and sail into the sunset of your lives blessed with love and care for each other.
Thanks both of you once again. And God bless you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I quite enjoyed your exchanges. Although I must admit that it is with a tinge of jealousy. How I long for the day when W can open up to me and tell me how she felt about the whole mess. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dan, I am just several months ahead of you and in time your life will resume to normalcy. My wife opening up to me wasn't something I expected but I am pleased that she does. Our communication has been better than ever.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am deep in Plan A and I agree with you about making our home a nice warm place to be and not a cold forbidding arena where gladiators come to fight. I don't think the analogy is quite right, but I think you know what I mean. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is a must that you court your wife the best you can. Make yourself look as good as possible to her because she is comparing you to the OM.
Nothing is fair about the things you must do, but do it anyway.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> TS I am indeed very happy (a bit jealous too) that you and your wife are coming to terms with what has happened. Judging by the time and patience you expended for my benefit I'm sure that you will be able to guide both you and your wife out of the turbulent seas and sail into the sunset of your lives blessed with love and care for each other.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am able to forget things from the past as long as it is not repeated and as long as there is true remorse. I feel like my wife is remorseful and is trying to be a better wife. I have been very specific with my wife on what I will not allow and if she violates my boundaries than she will jeapordize our relationship. The difference today is, she is out of the fog and is making rational decisions. One thing the counsellor told me that if my wife wants out of the marriage, there is nothing I can do about it. It takes two to make it work. Your immediate goal is to guide your wife, by whatever chosen tool, to where she will recommit herself to the marriage.

Keep us posted.

TooSoon

Dan, I very glad to hear your W is still in NC with OM (except at work), but at least there is not deliberate contact and text messaging between them. This is the most important right now and definitely much progress IMO! How are you lately coping overall & emotionally? And your W, how is she doing? Are there still signs of depression in her behavior?

Toosoon, I’m looking for input from BH’s on my thread “Concerns about my H’s friendship with another woman”. I’m specifically looking for input from BH’s whose FWW’s were involved in EA’s. Your W was also involved in EA, so I will appreciate your input on that thread if you want to. However, don't feel compelled to respond! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks and God bless,
Suzet

<small>[ October 15, 2004, 06:43 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Hi Guys,

TS I understand that you are a few months ahead of me but right now I can honestly say I cannot imagine a return to normalcy. I just cannot see W reconnecting with me enough that I feel loved. Having said that I am giving our relationship 6 months (April next year) to start returning to normalcy. After that 6 months I hope that W and I would be able to talk about this not to apportion blame but to bury the past and start building for the future. If that doesn't happen then there is no hope. We might as well call it a day. But I tell you now it won't be for lack of trying on my part.
Suzet thanks for your concern about how I'm coping. I still hit unbelievable lows but I am now able to pick myself up quicker, and can now see the positive side. W is still showing signs of dark moods when she just sits in a chair rocking back and forth staring into space. She still exhibits deep melancholy behaviour I can only attribute to missing the OM and that "thing" they had. I am quite positive that aside from when they are at work there is no contact of any kind. It's been now more than a week and the longer it gets the more I am convinced that she meant it when she said to me it is over. Howvever she still continues to sleep in our daughter's bedroom and I see her doing so into the near future. I would definitely say that we are beginning recovery when she comes back to our room for good.
Thanks you guys for all the help. One more thing Suzet you recommended a book in one of your postings that would help me write a letter to my wife. Can you please give me the title of that book? Thanks a lot.
I'll pray for you both in tomorrow's Mass. May God continue to bless you.

Hello dan,
Sorry to hear that your W is still in her world of quietness at this time. I'm hopeful she should snap out of this and finally see there's more in this world then to sit and dwell on this OM. Actually, a thought has come to mind, your W may appear lower then before now, since daughter is gone. This only means that there is more for W to deal with then she can handle, so she may need to shut down for a little and give her mind a rest. You are doing well as can be, continue to. You said you are giving W 6 months, now I wouldn't be quick about putting a number on it, for I know how much you love her and you know you will wait until she is in the clear, Right dan? so even if it takes her longer then 6 months, don't give-up if she hasn't by then, I believe that "True Love" is worth waiting for. Now if W and OM decide to come together again, well then, yes, I can understand then you will need to take another approach. This has got to be soooo hard, I wish you the best and don't want you to continue to suffer, so I pray, this will be solved really soon, so that Your W and you can be back together and working on a true and loving marriage that drifted into the wind but can find it's way back. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ October 16, 2004, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: holdon ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> TS I understand that you are a few months ahead of me but right now I can honestly say I cannot imagine a return to normalcy. I just cannot see W reconnecting with me enough that I feel loved. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Once she disconnects from the OM, she will begin her reconnection with you. Disconnection from the OM begins with absolutley NC. It is your job to make her disconnect from the OM.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Having said that I am giving our relationship 6 months (April next year) to start returning to normalcy. After that 6 months I hope that W and I would be able to talk about this not to apportion blame but to bury the past and start building for the future. If that doesn't happen then there is no hope. We might as well call it a day. But I tell you now it won't be for lack of trying on my part.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't believe time lines have all that much to do with it. Some affairs last for years because they are not broken off. I would focus on the short term NC issue and if any contact happens in any form, you must begin the exposure process. I worry about your marriage rebounding because I am not convinced it is over. It has been disrupted on your end only that we know about. I do see hope that your wife reamins moody because she is thinking it may be ending but she may also be trying to figure out a way to keep it going to get her fix. I would feel better if the OM's wife put her foot down too and forced the OM to leave his job if possible or to stay away from your wife.

One day at a time Dan.

TooSoon

Hi Guys,

holdon - welcome back. How's the arm I hope you're over the worst of it. The reason I am putting a timetable to this is to give me a point to focus on otherwise I will be looking at all the tomorrows in the hope that things will change. You are right that I do love W deeply in fact deeper than I ever realised. But if this isn't reciprocated or she makes no moves towards healing our marriage then what is the point? But then again as you said I can and will wait for such is my love for her. Her moods are up and down and I think you're right about our daughter being on her mind as well.
TS - as I've said earlier I see no evidence of contact outside work which was the worst part of it. And as for time lines although I agree with you that these very from situations, but as I've told holdon it is just something to go by and certainly not written in stone. Yes TS one day at a time. Thanks.
God bless you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Suzet you recommended a book in one of your postings that would help me write a letter to my wife. Can you please give me the title of that book? Thanks a lot. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dan,

The name of the book: Men are from Mars and Women Are From Venus

Author: John Gray, PHD

Blessings,
Suzet

The Healing Library
The No Contact Agreement

How ever the affair has been exposed, whether by discovery by the BS or confession from the WS, there must be proper closure to the affair. An agreement must be set up between the BS and WS that all contact with the OP must end and it must be permanent. The WS is in no position to bargain or make deals with their partner and try to keep the OP somehow active in their life. The WS must commit to the No Contact agreement and confide in their partner if the agreement is broken or if the OP has contacted them.
Writing a No Contact letter to the OP is the best way to end the affair. The WS is the one that writes it to the OP. There really is no format to it, except that it should be written by free will by the unfaithful partner. This isn't a "goodbye lover" letter...but rather should consist of stating that you are committed back to your relationship, that the A is over for good and there will never be contact again between them. It should be short and to the point, and the WS should state how selfish the affair was and how it caused tremendous pain to the BS.

Now, of course this won't be taken seriously by the OP if the unfaithful partner has had continued contact...this is a serious step towards reconciliation and it should be treated as such.

I would also let the WS know that you'll be reading the letter prior to him/her mailing it...there should be no hidden messages or hints that the WS will miss the OP. A letter is probably the best way to get closure for everyone involved...if you have your WS email or phone the OP...it opens it back up for the OP to respond...and that's what you are clearly trying to avoid.

In my case, I did not write a No Contact letter to the OM…we ended it on the phone. I did however write an apology letter to his wife, I never mailed it, instead she called me and I apologized profusely to her over the phone. I did however; write a No Contact letter to my best friend of 22 years. She was involved in several affairs and refused to end them and confess to her husband. Mangled and I both felt that if we were going to truly start over and have all deceit out of our lives, than she could not be involved in our relationship nor could our friendship continue. It pained me deeply to write her that letter…2 years later I'm still hurt by that. But I also know that it had to be dealt with in such a stern way, because she would have ended up hurting my marriage and possibly me again. And that was something I just wasn't willing to risk again.

The Healing Library
What the WS/BS Must Do to Reconcile

JUST GET OVER IT ALREADY!
How many times has that been said to you? If it has been said to you even once, then that is a big red flag! No one has the right to tell this to you. If it is your therapist telling you this, then you need a new therapist because obviously this one has no understanding of infidelity. If it is your spouse telling you this, then they have no understanding of the devastation that they have caused.
In order to "get over it", you and your spouse must be given the proper tools and a map. I do not feel that you can successfully navigate the road from infidelity towards healing without these two things.

You do not really "get over it"...you can move beyond it, but you will carry the scars for life as a reminder. You do not forget, but you can forgive...if and only if you and your spouse have the tools and the map.

The former cheating spouse has the biggest responsibility in the healing process. They hold the key for the healing of you and your marriage.

Your spouse must be willing to make it their mission in life to heal you...no matter how long it takes. They should not have to even ask you what you need to help you heal...they should seek professional advice from others and start implementing it immediately. Maybe down the road they will need to seek your own personal advice. You hold the timeline to your own healing.

They need to explain to the children, if they are old enough, that they have hurt you terribly and that they are doing everything to help you heal. They need to tell the children that it is not the children's fault or the betrayed spouses fault. If they see the betrayed spouse getting angry at the former cheating spouse, that this is normal and well deserved and part of healing. They are to be told that they are not to blame the betrayed spouse for their emotional outbursts toward the cheating spouse and that the betrayed spouse should be commended for being willing to give them another chance because they do not deserve it.

In order for your marriage to successfully survive these are some things that your spouse must do:

He must be totally honest with you about everything
He must answer every question that you ask truthfully and fully.
He must do everything in his power to prove to you that you are the one that he wants to be with.
He must prove his love to you...he must be patient, gentle, compassionate and understanding.
He must feel your pain.
He must fully understand the devastation that he caused you.
He must accept full responsibility for his actions.
He must stop all contact with OP and not try to protect them.
He must reassure you that it is OK to ask questions.
He must reassure you that you will not drive him away by doing the things that are necessary to heal.
He must recognize when your struggling or experiencing a trigger and comfort you.
He must be able to tell you how sorry he is and show you.
He must re-enforce to you, that you are not responsible.
He must put his own feelings of guilt and shame aside and help you heal first.
He must reconnect emotionally, mentally, and physically with you and stay connected.
He must work on rebuilding trust. No secrets. No privacy.
He must be willing to seek counseling.
He must learn what is and is not acceptable when communicating with the opposite sex...he must establish boundaries and not cross them.
Here is a list of things that you must do:
Give him the necessary time to prove his love and commitment to you.
Be open with your feelings.
Ask the questions that are important to you.
Don't be afraid that you will drive him away while you are trying to heal.
Stop blaming yourself for his actions. You are in no way responsible...even if you are Attila the Hun!
You must be able to let him connect with you. (this one takes time)
You must continue checking up on him in order to let him rebuild trust.
You must be willing to seek counseling so that you do not get stuck in one of the stages of recovery such as anger or depression.
These are just a few of the things that I have thought of off the top of my head. With these things in place, then reconciliation can be successful. It is still a long journey, but with baby steps it can be achieved. For me, with all these things in place it took about 1 1/2 years to get to a really comfortable place. Without a majority of these things, I do not see how reconciliation can be successful.
If you were to decide to climb Mt Everest and you looked in the phone book under expeditions and called a company and told them that you wanted to climb Mt Everest and they said great. Then you would ask them how to do it. If their reply was to "just get over it", then I am sure that you would call some other company. You would know that it would require the proper tools and a map and a team approach. Well, you are facing a mountain that you need and want to climb. You cannot "just get over it". It doesn't happen that way. It will take the proper tools and a map and team work.

The majority of the things that I mentioned must take place from BOTH spouses before a successful reconciliation takes place. I am also only addressing reconciliation here, however the betrayed spouse has other options. If your spouse is doing EVERYTHING that has been recommended by the therapist to help you heal and you have made NO progress after say 1 year, then the betrayed spouse probably needs a new therapist who can help her better evaluate the situation and help her to start giving her spouse credit for what he is doing or come up with other options rather than reconciliation. Some betrayed spouses cannot reconcile no matter what their spouse does, but they may need therapy to move beyond the infidelity anyway.

If after 6 mos, the betrayed spouse has NOT progressed and the former cheating spouse is NOT doing his part, then there is no reason to expect any progress from the betrayed spouse toward reconciliation. Each person has a role in the reconciliation process...including knowing when enough is enough. I would never expect a former cheating spouse to be able to hang in there after 1 1/2 to 2 years of doing EVERYTHING recommended and seeing NO progress from the BS. I would also never expect a betrayed spouse to hang on for years if her spouse is doing NOTHING to help her heal.

I believe that forgiveness is independent of the cheater helping you heal. Forgiveness is a gift you give yourself...not the other person.

In the early stages the former cheater needs to find out from professionals what to do to help you heal. The wounded spouse is often in no condition to be able to know this in the beginning. Once the wounded spouse is down the road towards recovery, then they will be able to fine tune what is needed, but initially...no way.


Erica

Dan:

During the withdrawal stage with my wife, I used to print articles and ask my wife to read them. She would resist the articles but would read them. I viewed it as planting seeds in her mind. You might try that too.

TooSoon

Dan, you’re very quiet… How are things? Are you okay? Keep us updated. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Blessings,
Suzet

Hi Guys,

Sorry for keeping silent. Am just a bit disorientated by recent events. Don't worry I'm still in one piece and things are looking up. Will update you soon. TS thanks for the postings will comment on them later. Just presently a bit preoccupied. Sorry about being cryptic will explain later.
God Bless you all.

We are glad you are still alive and well.

TooSoon