My Wife and I have been separated for 3 mos. She was actively pursuing divorce right off the bat. For the last month and a half there has been no talk about it until the other day she mentioned wanting to pursue it again. She has been seeing someone else the whole time we have been separated, actually started before separation. We have not been talking much and have seen each other very little during the last couple months.

I asked her if she would go out to dinner with me and talk before we proceed with the divorce. She agreed. This will be the first thing we have done together since separating.

I am looking for advice about what to say or not say during our dinner, as I feel this may be my last chance to make something positive happen before we file.

Need more info chere.

How long were you married?

Do you have children?

How did she meet this man she is having the A with?

How long has the affair been ongoing?

Who knows about the affair?

We have been merried 4 year together 8 years. We have have children from her previous marriage. She met the guy through mutual friends and the A has been going on for 4mos(?). As far as I know lots of people know about it.

I guess for clarification, I'm torn betweeen continuing to be the friend and hope that the A ends on it's own or telling her my feelings and giving her an ultimatum to end it and work on our marriage or there will be no more contact between us.

We have been merried 4 year together 8 years. We have have children from her previous marriage. She met the guy through mutual friends and the A has been going on for 4mos(?).

Four months is going to be in the midst of deep fog and don't be surprised if you are not able to reach her right now. After about 6 months the biochemistry peaks and it becomes easier for you to make some headway. Right now, she's still going to view this guy as her soulmate, and very little you have to say will reach her.

As far as I know lots of people know about it.

Do her mom and dad know? Her siblings? Is the guy married? If so....does his wife know? Exposure can help wake up a fogged spouse if done lovingly.

I guess for clarification, I'm torn betweeen continuing to be the friend and hope that the A ends on it's own or telling her my feelings and giving her an ultimatum to end it and work on our marriage or there will be no more contact between us.

You need to read about Plan A and B. There is information on the home site...but I recommend Dr. Harley's book "Surviving an Affair" it will help you make sense of this mess. Do NOT give an ultimatim...and do your best to delay divorce proceedings until your spouse is less fogged. What have you been doing for the last few months?

The first month of our separation was awful. I didn't find out about the affair until after we separated. I acted like a compltete lunatic and idiot at first. About a month and a half ago I pulled myself together and have been treating her with nothing but kindness and respect. We have been getting along pretty good and haven't had an argument or raised our voices to each other during the last 1 1/2 mos. There has actually been some laughter in our conversations.

The thing is the conversations in the last 1 1/2 mos have been about everything and anything but our marriage or her A. Now she wants to start the D proceedings again and I feel like I have to say something. Or do I just continue to be a friend and work amicably through the D process and hope that in the 3-4 mos that it will take to go through that maybe things will change? I have read about plan A should I try that at our dinner date tomorrow night?

Just some questions...

What is your native language ?
What is your cultural background ?
Are either of you religious ?
What are your most attractive characteristics that can draw your wife toward you once again ?

Pep

My native language is English. We are both just your basic Americans. She was raised Catholic but is not practicing. We are both spiritual but not really religious.

My best characteristics are my charm, intelligence and sense of humor. The things she feels are missing, are that we don't communicate well anymore and that I don't listen. She feels that I am selfish and disrespectful and that we didn't spend enough time together.

My best characteristics are my charm,

So what especially charming thing can you do tonight? Open doors for her. pull her chair out. Pour wine for her. Be the gentleman.

intelligence and sense of humor

Make her laugh. This is how my H got me to fall for him ... he is very funny and he made me laugh.

. The things she feels are missing, are that we don't communicate well anymore and that I don't listen.

So, hold her hand, and look her in the eyes, and tell her your want to touch her soul. Touch her face lightly. This is a very big turn on for most women. Touch her neck too if she will allow you to.

She feels that I am selfish and disrespectful and that we didn't spend enough time together.

So, tonight apologize to her for not being as wonderful a husband as you can be, and tell her your ideas of how you want to make changes.... Don't just say "I want to change" ... instead say what specific changes you are doing right now.

Good luck.

Pep

Thanks for the good advice Pep. Actually our dinner is tomorrow night so I still have a day to ponder my plan. I want to touch her and hold her hand when we talk I want to look her in the eye and tell her what I feel I just don't want to push it too far because I am not sure how she will react. But then again I don't think I have much to lose at this point. I always do all the other stuff like holding doors and pulling out chairs so that will come naturally as for pouring wine, I have a feeling she might shy away from alcohol because she knows it will lower her resistance to my charms.

parkem.....I fairly new at this as I've only been going through this for about a month. I can absolutely support the "fog" syndrome. Some of the information I've read about here and in SAA is exactly what I've now seen and heard from my WW. The folks who have responded to you are some of the ones that have helped me make great strides in achieving my goal - winning my wife back and developing a M based on trust, honesty and love.

Reading your thread, it looks like you've already made a 180 degree turnaround. Lunatic the first month or so and now applying your "charm". If nothing else, the other day I was able to see a momentary lapse of her "fog" and WW said "I know you are changing, I can see that". Her saying that backs up what the experienced MBr's have told me...."Although the WS may not respond, the FWS's who were handed a good Plan A noticed everything - everything".

Read, learn and apply. It's painful and upsetting but it sure feels better knowing what to expect.

Good Luck and God Bless.....LS

Thanks for the encouragement lostsailor. I have heard through a mutual friend that my WW has noticed my changes but she thinks I am just acting like this to try to win her back. Which in a sense I am, but no matter what happens I realize that I needed to change some things about myself.

Well tonight is the big night. This dinner will be the first time my WW and I have done anything together in 3 mos. I am nervous as hell. I know things are hanging by a frayed thread and that everything I say tonight is going to be under a microscope. I somehow need to "convince" her not to start the D process up again.

parkem, maybe right now you are "acting", but does it seem to be coming more naturally? Usually when we are breaking a bad habit and trying to form a new one, it feels forced and fake. I forgot the timeline on how long it takes to form a new habit, but if practiced consistently, I believe it takes about six weeks? Not sure on that.

And if your new good habits and behavoir are rewarded by not only your wife's reactions, but your own feelings about your wife and your M, do you think you'll stick with them in the future? I'll bet you will! Because your changes will bring about changes in your M and your wife--things will be different and while backslide is always possible, I think that her good reactions will lead to more good changes. Your changes will encourage changes in her. If your wife actually says to you that your changes are just to get her back and she fears that you'll go back to the way you were (this is a normal reactions...don't we all basically think that people can't change?)...you reply that you were not able to change before because of your belief system regarding relationships. You explain that you have done some soul-searching and done a lot of reading and that your whole belief system is changing and that's why you believe your changes are permanent. Tell her you see the rewards in changing, even if it does not work out between the two of you. She may still think of this all as lip-service but over time she will not be able to ignore your determination. You cannot make her believe you and trust you, but you CAN be firm in your own statements about your belief system changing.

I think it's really great that you are having a dinner date. That's a good sign! Let us know how it goes!

PS I urge you to read up *especially* on plan A. You might also want to consider getting Divorce Busting and/or Divorce Remedy (both are similiar, Divorce Remedy might be the better choice) by Michelle Weiner-Davis. This book is all about "changes" and the theory that Nothing ever changes if nothing ever changes. It is a SOLUTION oriented way to work on your marriage, much like the Harley's plan is. Both are valuable, IMO. Don't try to get your wife to read this stuff unless you truly feel she's open to it, but it would definitely benefit you to read them.

PSS editing in to add. Do a search for rr's post concerning her sessions with S. Harley. It's a long post but worth the read. Her husband is also reluctant to accept her changes as permanent and SH gives her advice in that department.

<small>[ August 18, 2004, 08:58 AM: Message edited by: maddyk ]</small>

Thanks maddyk. I do feel good about my changes and they are benefiting me in all aspects of my life. I have learned so much about myself, my WW and relationships in the past 3 mos. I am chomping at the bit to put this wisdom in to practice with my WW and start rebuilding our marriage. *Reminds self to be patient*

I do own the Divorce Remedy and have read through it multiple times. It has a lot of good info.

I am going to search for the post that you mentioned.

parkem, i had a hard time brining it up in search so I got the link for you:

roughroad's sessions with SH

Your M actually seems to be in a better place despite how it may seem right now, but there are definitely words of wisdom in there. It's a long post but worth the read. I cut and pasted relevant things to my situation into a word document.

It's good that you feel good about your changes. As long as *YOU* feel they are warranted (not just cuz your wife says so), then they will last and you will be a better person in the end no matter what happens with your M. You will also have the very real comfort of knowing that *you* did everything you could to save the M. And should you ever have another relationship or marriage, you will know what to do!

Your M actually seems to be in a better place despite how it may seem right now

Let me give some more background...

When my wife and I separated, she said she needed some time apart from me because things were strained. Because the kids are hers from a previous marriage she didn't want to leave and asked if I would go stay with my folks for a little while. Trying to be the nice guy and wanting to work things out I left. At this point I didn't suspect any kind of affair. A week after I went to stay with my folks she said she wanted a D and then I found out about a week later that she was seeing someone else. Doing a little detective work I found that the relationship started a month before we separated. when I confronted her about it she said that her asking for a D had nothing to do with the other person. She has justified everything in her mind with the reasoning that nothing physically happened until after she told me she wanted a D at which point she felt that our marriage was over and that she had no ties to me. She doesn't even consider it an affair because she told me she wanted a D before she started sleeping with OM. She denies any emotional affair while we were still together even though the cell phone statements show that she was talking to OM every day. But here we are 3 mos later and nothing has been filed yet.

So the bottom line as to why everthing is so F'd up is that even though she is the one having the affair she got me out of the house. I have very little power in my situation.

parkem, that is a textbook, typical statement from a WS. "I need space". "This has nothing to do with OP". "I've been unhappy for a long time". "I thought of separation/divorce before OP I even considered pursuing a relationship".

They do NOT and perhaps cannot see the connection between their change in feelings and the beginning of a relationship with OP. We can see it, probably everyone ELSE can see it, but they don't. They think...'how could I possible have these kinds of feelings for OP if I love my spouse?'

Sure, I don't doubt that the M was not in a great place when the A started. But the change that happened in your spouse is that they begin to see the problems in the marriage as insurmountable. Since they met OP and have all these GREAT feelings, they THINK that there is a better alternative to their marriage. They cannot see that they are in a "dating" stage and so they are only giving the best to each other. They begin to rewrite history and claim that things were never really that great to begin with. That they have always had doubts. That maybe they even believed that their "spouse" was never really the "one" and that OP could possibly be that person. They think that they've wasted enough time and they should not linger in a marriage that is not fulfilling. They cannot see how it is possible to make that marriage more fulfilling than it ever was. Lucky for you and me, we've found this site and know that it can be that way.

Some of my background...I am also separated from my husband. He had an affair about a year and 1/2 ago. He's no longer in the affair (I believe they still have contact though). After the affair is when my husband told me how unhappy he was. I had NO clue..none whatsoever, though I look back now and can see the signs. I can see what I did to contribute to our problematic situation. At the time he told me he loved me, but that he always had doubts about marrying me (*I* think he has magnified the normal cold feet that people get before marriage into 100X what they really were). He said he felt pressured (by who? Certainly not by me...maybe by circumstances, I dunno). He said he always felt like something was missing, etc etc, blah blah blah. Well, you know...I don't think something was ALWAYS missing, but I do think that it got lost once we got married so in the respect he's not entirely wrong. But you see...it was not until the AFFAIR that he expressed these things to me. He doesn't see the connection, even now. He has begun to rewrite history. You see, I have the letters, I have the silly little gifts, the emails, the pictures, the poems, etc etc etc. I know what we once WERE and I know we can be that way again, even better!! He does not believe that it can be changed back.

Anyway, we trudged on for a year after I found out about the A. But we didn't really DO anything to change things. It was a "wait and see" kind of attitude and I will admit to my UTTER failure in changing things that I needed to change. I just didn't understand the magnitude of our problems, despite the A. I thought that as the injured party, I should have an unlimited amount of time to get over the A and begin my changes. Big mistake on my part.

So here we are a year and a half later...we separated in June and live very far apart right now. We agreed that if things don't change by next June, we will get divorced. You know what the sad thing is? We started the separation with the same kind of "wait and see what happens" kind of attitude. Then I found this site <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Now I'm trying very hard to make things different. He's not ready to see it yet, and maybe he never will. He has already begun dating and I believe he has stepped away from the marriage. We talk on phone and see each other every other month (have had one visit so far and another in October). But really, his dating is to be considered another affair and with us not being near each other..shrug..not sure how much hope there is.

Anyway, I'll I'm trying to say is that the "need space" is sooo typical that it's almost laughable--if it didn't hurt so much. I have the same thing right now. "I need space." "I like living alone right now". "I love you, but not sure I want to be married". Hang in there, parkem! Things might not change the way we want them to, but we are far from unique and others HAVE gotten through what we've gone through and made successful marriages.

Yeah, all of her comment are pretty cliche. "I need space" , "I love you but I'm not in love with you", "I never should have married you in the first place"

The biggest regret I have is ever having left the house. That was my biggest mistake. She took advantage of my good nature to get me out. She said she felt so much better once I was out of the house. Of course she did, it's gotta be stressful juggling someone on the side while your husband and kids are at home. Not to mention the guilt. She got me out and the kids have been at her Mother's most of the summer, it's been a free-for-all for my WW of course she feels great. She has had nothing to deal with this summer except work, partying with friends and the OM.

But she shows signs of being unsure of her decision. The other night she told me she really missed my family. I told her that I really missed her family too. She was taken aback. Her response was "Really?" as if she didn't realize that I even liked her family and would miss them. But then she snaps out of her nostalgic reverie with a comment like "oh well that's one of the sad things about divorce." She told me that she loved me more than anyone she has ever loved before and more than she will ever love anyone again and that she doesn't want things to be like this and that she doesn't want to be twice divorced. And I'm like it doesn't have to be. Let's work this out. But the "fog" keeps her from seeing that as a possibility. It is so frustrating it makes me want to scream sometimes.

Wow there is so much good info on the site that I am getting info overload. I am still trying to decide my plan for my dinner tonight with my wife. Ideally I would like to just hang out and enjoy each others company and not talk about anything 'heavy', but...

Any ideas on what subjects or concepts to definately avoid when talking to her?

parkem, I think a "light", relaxed dinner is a fabulous idea.

avoid any relationship talk, say very nicely and gently, "I've been having so much fun this evening and it's been so relaxed. I would like to talk to you about our marriage, but how would you feel about talking about it tomorrow?". If you REALLY feel like she's wanting to talk then do it, but try not to get emotional...but I would try to avoid it. Also avoid things like the future. Like, "*IF* we stay together then X" or "If we do end up splitting, then Y". Just avoid any future that might avoid the two of you.

When my husband visted he was here for a week. We were together almost 24/7 and we managed to have only ONE R talk that whole time and it was very matter of fact--not emotional at all. I'm usually the one who wants to bring up our M, but I have to admit how wonderful it was to just put that aside for awhile.

I am going to try to keep it 'light' and avoid M talk, but since she mentioned last week that she wants to move forward with the D I replied by saying that I would like to have dinner and talk before we proceed. I feel like I am at a point where I might have to lay all my cards on the table. Let her know everything that's in my head before we go any further.

A couple questions on how to deal with certain comments she might make.

She has said in the past that I don't listen to her, that I don't respect her needs. If she clearly states that she wants to proceed with the D, and I try to stall or talk about alternatives she will say "See? You are not listening to me or respecting my needs again."

Another thing that has come up before about a month ago and might come up again. We talk about our relationship and I tell her how I feel and she says somethng like "I understand but it's over and I'm seeing someone else"

And then of course there are the stock comments of
"You had your chance"
"Too little too late"
"I love you but I'm not in love with you"

Any ideas on how to respond to those?