</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you even said yourself she was never affectionate or very supportive. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She started to grow away from me after her first A. But she never fully accepted us as the union of one. I actually said in general, just a lack of affection/caring I guess. I have a really bad neck and back and when I was hurting she always just seemed unsympathetic. Can't honestly say never even by a longshot. However, she has continually pressed on with independent behaviors since the first year after our M.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why do you want her back? Think very honestly about this. If it is about the failure/ego thing you need to look at that. If it is about the vows you made to her, look at that too. If it is a religious thing, look at that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Excellent points and questions! It is about failure some. And my vows are MORE important to me now than ever. I guess more now because I see their worth much more clearly now. Vows are the religious thing to me. God, family, me, and friends. I made a promise in front of all of them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It may be that this is your opportunity to look very closely at who you have become through all this and what you will desire and expect from a wife.

Can she, is she capable of fulfilling those things? Is she capable of accepting from you the things you need to give? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Also a great points! Yes, I have been thinking about this since those recent posts. I've really been wondering "Just what is Gods will here"? And "did he put me in this position to save me a life of dissapointment"? I just don't know yet. But my ear is to the ground and I am praying to Him to help it be clear to me. Trust in Him and all other things will work themselves out. If WW is not capable of being the mother that I need then He will let me know. Unless he has another plan. And if that is so I will have to accept that as well. Much easier said than done. All points considered I am keeping my best interests at heart. I'm glad you are too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Recovery is harder than where you are now, from what I am reading on here, and if you want children, affection, passion & friendship from your mate, maybe you need to tadk a very hard honest look if you can have that with her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What I have with WW is no good. What I could have with my W is what I am focused on. But that is very idealistic of me and I realize that. One of the things that bugs me a lot is our SF. It has never been good and will take lots of work to fix. It can be fixed but lots of work by both of us. The other things I know she is capable of.

However, you have a point here that really strikes home with me. All in all since I have known her now she has cheated on me 4 times in 8 years. twice while we were dating and twice while we were M. And of course the abandonment. *sigh* Sometimes I want to give up. And lately I have really had a wandering eye. Very sad. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Sad because I don't want to do these things. Not right now. I know that I must be careful or I will be staring at another A in the mirror. *sigh*

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There are a lot of very good, beautiful, faithful & passionate women out there who would make good moms and life partners in this world.

Don't settle for less, especially if you see children in your future. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, I agree. This makes me anxious. I can't imagine not dating for a year! I mean, I really hate dating but I have my EN's to deal with. I won't settle for less than an affair proof M!

Your post is in good taste and I really appreciate your concern. Please keep posting and reading because I enjoy your views and points.

God Bless,

C.

It's tough to be in the shoes of a BS I know. So many things are left in your hands to deal with, not the least of which is deciding what is the right thing to do for both of you.

I am a single mother of my 10 year old daughter, and although she is happy with a good life and relationship with both her dad and I, she still wishes we were together. And the funny thing is we split up before she was born.

I thought I could give her a better life without him living with us, because he was a musician and had an affair when I was pregnant. I didn't want to spend my life worried about all his fans, nor did I want her to grow up with fighting and distrust.

My mom told me it would be very lonely to be a single parent, and she was right. Of course at the time my parents and grandma were still alive so I had all the help and support I needed. They all died within 8 months of each other when my little girl was 4. Suddenly I truely was alone to take care of her (although her dad is a good dad now to her).

What I'm saying is, if you want children Scmaley look for someone who will be a good mother and wife. Maybe she is and can be, but her past record is not very promising.

Just wanted to talk about the other side some with you, but I can tell from your reply to me you have your head on straight.

Hang in there guy, happiness is not very far away. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

edited because I got my ws/bs mixed up a bit <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ November 06, 2004, 07:08 PM: Message edited by: weaver ]</small>

So sorry to hear about your losses. That is very sad to hear. Sounds like you are doing a good job with your D though. She will have her head on straight if she takes after you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

If WW pulls up out of her nose dive that will only be the beginning. I realize this. But with the insight I have learned through MB we could have a great M. One better than the M that we thought we would have when we got M. But much has yet to be revealed. Life is good even when it is bad. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the Glory of God. Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

Romans (5:1-5, NIV)

Have a great weekend and God Bless

C.

<small>[ November 06, 2004, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: shmaley ]</small>

That is a great verse from Romans! And how true it is.

You are right, maybe God's grace will find her in answer to your prayers.

You're right about having the tools and the insight to have a great marriage. I'll pray that her eyes be opened too. If that is your desire.

I have been reading John Eldridge books lately and in one he talks about Jesus and our desires. About how when Jesus came upon the crippled man laying in front of the place where everyone went to get their miracles, he had to ask the crippled man, "what is it you desire?", because although it should have been obvious, the crippled mans spirit was broke from all those years of being dropped off each morning by relatives in front of the miracle place, and then completely ignored, he didn't even remember what it was he wanted from God.

Well I'm not very good at Bible stories, but what Jesus was teaching the people that day was, I can't give you your desire, if you don't even know what that desire is!

Nice talking to you tonight Shmaley. Guess I better drag myself of the 'puter and do something. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I think that I should get my last exposures done and RUN not walk for plan B

Found out today that at least 2 of WW and supposedly my friends paid to bring OM here last weekend. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

This has irritated me a little. I am contemplating what I shall do for their punishment. ?????? Before I knew about this I had invited them over to eat a dinner that I was going to cook. I think that I will leave that offer open and have a little discussion with them after the main course.

Maybe we will have some dinner with them. Show them some of the things that I have written to WW and talk a little. Then after they give me the pat on the back and tell me how sorry that they are I will announce what I know. Then I will give them one chance to explain themselves. After that I believe that they will be relieved of any hope of my friendship ever gracing them again. I should make them some ex-lax chocolate chip cookies...LOL Idiots what is wrong with people these days. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Couple of real freaks. Dirty dirty enablers.

I know this info because of a GOOD friend of mine that was approached by one of them to pitch in money to bring OM here. I'm really glad that I didn't know that he was here when he was. This is one of those HUGE WITHDRAWLS!!! And I mean Big! WHO DOES SHE THINK THAT SHE IS BRINGING HIM TO MY TOWN!!!

Growing more indifferent to our M all the time. I don't hate her yet but I have about zero respect left for her. This is not temporary insanity. This is just plain hateful! WW is a freak and I think that she deserves what ever she gets at this point. SHE BROUGHT HIM HERE!!! IF I EVER SEE HIM IT WILL BE VERY BAD. There is noway that I will be able to control myself. None.

This is the stuff mini-series are made out of huh...

Dirty dirty betrayers! I must forgive them but I will not forget their actions.

C.

Shmaley,

I am truly sorry this happened. See what a WS is capable of? Manipulation seems to be par for the course. At least you know it is not just you she wants to involve in the A, even friends.

Well hold off on the ex-lax stuff but if you can stomach the convo w/dinner, it maybe to your benefit. Keep barf bags near by.....maybe they won't be able to hold their guilt down.

Solicating $$ for OM? What a catch. He can't even afford his own way. U s/b proud Shmaley. Look for the lemonade. It's there.

Can RM work with you on a plan? Put out your feelers and find out who and how much were involved in this plot.

Just to share an experience, my cousin's sister (yea my cousin also but not as close to this other cousin - I'll refer to her as cousin B), well counsin B left her BF for one of his co-workers. Her sister has been trying to help both but both the WS and BS are being stupid right now. Anyway, I helped where I could but last night, my 1st cousin's son was spending the evening with cousin B. Cousin B was suppose to take newphew to the movies to see The Incredibles. My son wanted to see it also, so I offered to hoin up with Cousin B and nephew. So far sooo good? Hm.... I called and then found out that cousin B & nephew were with OM. YUCK!!! My son wanted to go to the movies but this cousin B used her own nephew to go out with OM!! I was totally turned off. Not before I contacted 1st cousin and let her know. Had already made dinner plans with cousin B but reneged since I couldn't stomach it (so see you are the better person - <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). Son and I went to see the movie on our own. I will have a talk with her later.

Anyway, you take care ok? Don't do anything you'll regret. Sending some MB ammo your way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well hold off on the ex-lax stuff but if you can stomach the convo w/dinner, it maybe to your benefit. Keep barf bags near by.....maybe they won't be able to hold their guilt down. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No cookies?!!
Awww... you never let me have any fun;).... As for the dinner, I will probably make alfredo and extra rich with lots and lots of parmasean so their stomaches will turn turn turn..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Solicating $$ for OM? What a catch. He can't even afford his own way. U s/b proud Shmaley. Look for the lemonade. It's there. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah..........Laooo Saher...........LOOSER!!!

Cream of the loser crop. WW sure knows how to pick em eh? Bi-sexual, small, and a looser. All these things I know for a fact. Heard all but the loser part from WW in counseling.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Can RM work with you on a plan? Put out your feelers and find out who and how much were involved in this plot. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Feelers already extended Captain! It is being worked on as we speak. I will know who was involved and they will have my wrath. Revenge is best served cold don't you think? I will get them all at the same time so that none of them can warn each other.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't do anything you'll regret. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I haven't yet and don't intend to. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

I am very contemplating and obviously unlike WW a thinker. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

C.

Very good IC session today! I will post about it tomorrow when I have had a chance to think about it a little more. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Lots of Plan B stuff to start working out this week. I've got an appt with Jennifer C. on Tues. next week so I will start to discuss all the details with her then. As well, I will make sure that she agrees that I am ready to go into Plan B. Right now, I don't really see any other way though. I'm looking forward to it actually. Especially the part after all WW's pictures are down. Right now there is too many of them up and it bugs me.

I think a lot about finding someone else right now. Makes me feel a little guilty but I think that I am just trying to search for a place where I can know that I will not be hurting anymore. I WILL NOT BREAK MY VOWS! And I will be watching for those that wil try to take advantage of my situation. I want a healthy relationship more than I want a couple of EN's satisfied. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

More later....

C.

Yesterday at my IC appt. we talked about several issues.

I have been feeling more and more like I just want to move on. I know that I am above this treatment. However, I can't help but feel a little guilty for wanting to leave my W. (that sounds crazy huh) But I feel guilt for thinking about finding someone else to spend the rest of my life with. And it is hard to have these feelings and at the same time leave that little bit of room and hope for reconciliation. But just thinking about moveing on and finding someone else is very exciting to me. My interpretation of this is that I am excited about the prospect of feeling happy again. And not hurting all the time sounds real good too. My IC agreed with this.

Fantasizing about various things. Dealing with agression towards OM, Betraying friends, and WW. In the event that I learn that OM is in town I promised that I would call my IC before I had any confrontation with OM. As well we came up with the plan to let my support group know that I do not want to know if OM is in town. Mentally if I see him right now I can't really imagine being able to control myself. So just taking some safety precautions. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Growth through this process. I said that I felt like I have done what any one else would do as far as growth and healing. But he told me that not every one recovers from this sort of thing. Some people spend their lives letting it get them down. And some people end it all. Basically, I realize it could be worse and know that I am doing well.

He suggested that I should try to allow myself to take up the slack for what my childhood couldn't. He said that I dealt really well with all that went on but to put the burden where it could be handled better. This makes a lot of sense to me.

There was probably more but I don't recall all of it right now.

C.

<small>[ November 09, 2004, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: shmaley ]</small>

Shmaley,

Good to hear from you. Glad the IC session went well and you are not the threat to yourself. As for the OM, well he always needs to look over his shoulder.

I am quite short. For those who have actually had to endure meeting me, I am a shortie. Yet the OW who is 5'4" claimed she was afraid of me (4'10" - on a tall day - LOL!!!). Yea right, maybe physically I can't pound her in the ground but there are other ways. Well..... maybe physically I could - LOL!!! But I choose not to. I choose to allow life to do the pounding. I even learned how to cause LBs between the WS and OP without lifting a finger. Talk about power and control!!!!! When the OW made that statement about being afraid of me (via the WS), I told the WS to relay to the OW that if felt that need, she needed to do so. Loved the fact that she claimed t/b scared. Wanted to go up to her and say BOO U boob! LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> But I am better than that. Making her live in a state of doubt had a much better and long lasting effect. Maybe she has a crimp in her neck from all that looking over her shoulder. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

L.

Feeling a little sad today. Not as bad as times before. This whole thing seems to be constantly progressing and regressing for me. It's like an evil vortex. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Everytime I bounce back with a little different perspective on things. I think that I am still growing though. Continuing to progress has been the best thing for me. I do not hate WW but feel less and less for her. It is sad as a whole.....The more people I tell the more she just looks crazy and depraved. And I really haven't been telling everyone about this.

When I got home today there was a note in the door. Said something like "we were in the neighborhood stopped by and missed you. We miss you......signed Friend and D. Well this is a M friend of ours that WW has obviously not told about this. SO....I called her and told her what was up. She has been in this same situation herself and so we talked for a little while. She was left with two children. This is why WW did not call her to say what was up. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> You can't see the truth when you hide your eyes. The truth hurts but it can heal you too.

C.

Just went through a three or four day spot of not wanting anything to do with WW. Really to the point that I could care less about reconciliation. But I called her just now and I know that I still have some Love left. She didn't answer as usual so I left a message. I do want her still but I am not being eat up inside by it anymore. Much better place to be. I'm looking forward to my IC with Jennifer C. so that I can get some direction on how to proceed with Plan B.

The rollercoaster continues.......

C.

Shmaley,

The roller coaster's track go up and down. YUCK!!!

What positive points come out from your call/message to the WS? Hard piece of reality to face if it doesn't leave you with a pleasant result. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Good to hear you are keeping your appt w/Jennifer C. Now that's a positive step.

So what did this friend say when you gave her the info?

take care,
L.

I call WW because Jennifer C. said I should contact her 2-3 times a week. I don't ask her to call back because I know I'll be upset when she doesn't. She also noticed last time that I called and didn't ask her to call back. Also it should have a MORE pronounced effect on her when I go to Plan B if all of a sudden there is no more letters and no more calls. Says I really mean it.

Our friend said that she was sorry to hear it and couldn't believe that our friends had brought OM here. Said that she had been in a similar situation herself but didn' go into details. She told me that I was always welcome at their house and that they hoped that I would come by sometime. Wanted to know all the details of what had happened and so on.

C.

Sounds like you are doing the right thing but it hurts none the less.

Be safe.

L.

As I bounce back from my short bout with depression all I can think about is moving on. I believe that if WW came back I would still be up for working on our M. However, with as little contact as I will have with WW once Plan B goes into effect (all pictures are down and don't have to think about her or anything to do with her 98% of the time) I am curious what emotional changes are going to occur. And with as much water that has gone under the bridge I just want some resolve one way or another. This is how I feel today.

RM said that she would take all the pictures down when I was ready. She'll tell me what sizes to print and I will make all new ones the don't have WW in them. I wonder what she will think when she comes over and there is not one single image of her up in the house!?!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I'd like to be a fly on the wall when that happens. Unless she were to cry. I can't take seeing that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Crazy isn't it!!! I think I'd still love her even if she chopped my leg off. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I never would have imagined that she would have betrayed me like this. I mean I would have stepped out in front of a truck for her no regrets and she does this to me. wow.

I was thinking that I would send all of her pictures and her wedding dress to her. But that would probably be mean. It will probably be better if I just store them in a safe place and wait until it is appropriate to give them to her if that day comes. The thing is I know that the decision has been handed to me. It is mine for the making. And rightfully so because I am the only one making rational decisions at this point anyways.

C.

Shmaley,

Hard times require hard measures. You do have support and glad your RM is there to help you through.

Even things of sentimental value can be of support. Things to bring closure. For me I almost threw away our wedding pictures. Had them all bagged up and even put them in the garbage can. Pulled them out at the last minute.

For me closure had to come from some sentimental item. As painful as it was, I cut up my custom made wedding dress and kept the bow as a momento. Sounds cruel but for some reason, it brought closure. My marriage has been marred by the A, no forgetting that, just like I can't recover my dress. Yet, somehow it brought relief to do so, in a way I can't describe. My husband watched while I did it in tears. He gave me my space because that is what I asked for. It was what I felt I needed to do for me. For my healing. I don't expect everyone to agree or even understand it. Heck, I can't completely explain it. It was like I gave up something of value but not enough to throw away my M or family for. My priorities changed. While I always wanted to hand down my wedding dressing to either my daughter or DIL, I now know I can't. But when I have one, I can give them something else of equal value. Priorities change but the values stay the same. Does this make sense?

Sorry for the long post.

Hope you have a nice weekend.

L.

Found out WW is on birth control now. She's also telling people that she is not available because she is seeing someone. I can see she must be turning over a new leaf. Sounds like she's really a faithful mate now days. Her and OM will probably have a great R. Hey maybe they'll get M! They definitly deserve each other.

I'm sure that she will have no problems adjusting to living in Chicago on two artists salarys'. I mean look at the hovel she left behind. Only a 2700 sq. ft. house with wood floors, lots of natural slate I installed myself, a deck, and 5 person outdoor hottub. Actually, I'm just sure that they will be able to find better in Chicago isn't everything cheaper there? If they don't have enough money then all of those great friends (all under 23yrs. old) that helped talk her into this will surely loan her the money to upgrade homes in Chicago. What am I saying they are such good friends they will probably just give the money to those two lovebirds. Wow, you know I am feeling much better about this whole thing.

If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you, to some extent - not to put it too severely. The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient for him. Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him. The reason I wrote to you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything. If you forgive anyone, I also forgive him. And what I have forgiven - if there was anything to forgive - I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake, in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes.

(2Cor.2:5-11, NIV)

I'm not always in control. Sometimes I have to be carried. But His hands are quite able don't you think?

C.

By her own actions, the WS is admitting to the adultery. Can't take that back.

As to their living in a hovel....some WS and OPs think living on the streets beats a warm and loving family home. While the rest of the world sees their foolishness, the A participants prance around thinking they are wearing the 'emperor's new clothes'. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Just be glad you have your santity and are not prancing around carrying their real clothes ($$ and other of life's necessities). Imagine if she does bring another life in this world, what type of mother or lifestyle will this child be subjected to? One that a WS and child WILL have regrets on.......just a matter of when.

Repentance is an act that can deserve forgiveness. Anything less doesn't qualify. Forgiveness from the A does include the faithful spouse to forgive, not just God. It is up to the faithful spouse, not the other way around.

I hear you hurt and pain and know this is what you must feel at this time. It will help you be stronger and move forward better.

take care,
L.

I think I might be crashing.

I have a meeting with Jennifer C. tonight but I ddon't know if I am still interested in making this work anymore. Keep thinking I don't want to bail out before Plan B and all. But everytime I start to think about what kind of effect it will have on WW it is followed by a question of whether I even care if she is sorry or not. It still makes me sad that my M is being destroyed but I don't know that I am interested in trying to save it anymore. What I mean to say is I find myself hopeing that she doesn't come back. Because I think that she is a very shortsighted, stupid, and arrogant person and I can no longer respect her because of that. This causes me to actually feel a little relieved that it seems like she won't come back. Then I get the regret that I have not implemented my Plan B yet with the rest of my exposures. And round and round same thing over and over.

I'll go through with Plan B I guess but I am starting to not really feel right about what the letter says. Cause I don't really want her. I guess I should wait this feeling out a little. If she comes back I can always D her but this is my only chance to save my M if I decide to.

C.