Update / In Plan B.....Need advice and support!!!

Marriage Builders

Found out at the beginning of this month my wife has been cheating on me. First time during our marriage was two years ago. Now she is in a relationship with someone that she met only 2-1/2 mo ago and wants to leave. She is out of town visiting her parents for the next week and said in our last counseling session (our 2nd) that she plans to move out when she returns. She is a musician and is auditioning for jobs several states away. However, she is in school (last year of Masters Program) and is just starting the new year (locally). She says this affair has nothing to do with her leaving and that we are just incompatible. The counselor of course disagrees with this. She is not willing to stop the relationship at this point. I should mention her affair is a long distance relationship and she cannot see him but she calls him all the time. I am 29 and she is 27. Someone please help me to cope with this! I have been nothing but nice to her in the recent weeks and this has left her totally confused. She doesn't understand why I have not become angry yet.

This is tearing me apart. I cannot begin to explain all the emotions that I am feeling right now. I need to know what to expect next here. Read all of Dr. Harley's Basic concepts 2 weeks ago and have even given a copy to my Spouse. If someone could please direct me to the correct posting area for my post I would appreciate it greatly.

[ November 27, 2004, 03:23 AM: Message edited by: shmaley ]

Welcome to the forum....I think you picked the right place to post. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I like this board because of the amount of good veterans who post here. The "just found out" board can be very slow...so if you want quick responses post here. Good Luck

There are tons of men going through the same thing you are right now.

Have you read about Plan A? You can check it out on the link in my signature line.

Thanks starfish and believer. I just read the Plan A/B section. It looks like my S is forcing a Plan B situation. Fortunately, I have not been showing her any Love Busters since she told me about her lover. Right now we are in Counceling and as far as I know she will continue counceling. What I am wondering now is about the part in Plan B where Dr. Harley says "Plan B is for the betrayed spouse to avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery." Does this mean no counceling!?!? I wouldn't think so but I feel I should ask. Thanks again for your support. I will read and re-read Plan A/B.

Dear SHM,

Welcome to MB. Though I am sad for your pain and sorrow, I commend you on your reading of the concepts section and basically doing a pretty good plan A. It is hard to keep up, so I recommend that in addition you try out some or all of the following. Remember this is about what you can do not what your wife can or does.

1. Contact Jennifer C @ MB and setup phone counseiling for you 1st. You can do this in the comfort of your home and if you want within earshot of your W.

2. Read the books: Surviving an Affair , His Needs/Her Needs. both are by Dr W. Harley. If things get real bad with your W, read the book: Love must be Tough by Dr. James Dobson. This will give you a rounded knowledge of what is ahead and prepare you for it.

3. Keep a journal for your refernce. You may be surprised how this may turn out in a few months.

4. Keep posting and venting here as needed.

5. Secure your finances and don't be willing to give it all to the Ws. Save the good stuff for your W. The WS is not your W right now so don't give the WS the farm.

6. Check out the consequences of separation vs divorce in your area.

7. Create a personal support group and tell them to respect your decisions, then tell them only the portion you think they need to know.

If you use the above suggestions, it will make the outcome easier to handle.

take care,
L.

Thanks for your reply Orchid.

I will work on all of your suggestions but since I am already in counceling with a local Ph.D. I cannot afford to start more counceling. My insurance does not cover any of these expenses "of course" and my parents are footing the entire bill. Do you know the answer to my last question about Plan B and counceling with my WS?
BTW When I mentioned that I was visiting this website to my Dr. she said that this was a good one. My first counceling appointment w/out my WS is tomorrow and I am thinking that I will take The plan A/B material to the meeting along with some questions that I have drafted.

One more question. Orchid, I don't totally understand your #6 suggestion.
Thank you all so much for your help.

Good morning,

Free contact means anytime, anywhere. In plan B that becomes restricted. You can set contact for certainl important items, For me it centered on $$, mail and child visitation.

Counseling c/b individual or as a couple. I don't see a problem being in plan B and doing couple counseling. It s/b under the control of the MC anyway so any issues will have a 3rd party.

Remember plan B is to protect you from the additional pain of dealing with a WS while the A is flaunts or is alive in any shape or form.

So identify your boundaries. Ask your MC how familar they are with MB principles. Take the books Surviving an Affair and His Needs/Her Needs along with the emotional needs questionnaire. Maybe you can incorporate them in your session.

The MC may try to bring some of these tools up to the WS at a later time.

Patience, a clear mind and a calm heart is vital to your personal recovery.

take care,
L.

I have ordered both books and will make sure to mention them to my MC at my Thurs. visit . Thank you for the advice.

Should I make sure that I contact my WS at least once a day? More? Conversations are awkward and usually short unless I drive them longer. Right now she is out of state with her parents until Wednesday. I spoke with her last night and it broke my heart. Just don't want her to think I am not thinking about her. She still maintains that she is going to move out when she gets back. I told her I wasn't trying to stop her. She told me that she was practicing for an audition that is in the same state that the A lives in. That is what made me feel so bad. I have had a good two days without contact and this set me back quite a bit.

I don't think that I participated in any love busters except maybe that I sounded very sad when I was talking to her on the phone. I told her that my voice was sad because my heart was hurt but that I really did want to do all the things that she is so skeptical about me wanting to do (move to persue her career and mine somewhere else). Did not talk about A at all. Do you guys see any Love Busters in there? What is the score here?

I talk to her parents everyday. They are showing me a lot of love right now and I hope that I am not making a mistake doing this. I've read about how blood is thicker than water and it had made me cautious. Right now they are doing everything they can to talk sense to her and I know that her father plans to talk to her about not moving out soon. However, I plan to just go on assuming that she is going to move out. BTW I have not been conspiring with them or anything like that but just using them for moral support and keeping them updated on the positive changes that I am making in myself.

Today I am going to call an P.A.P.N that my MC suggested to talk about getting on some AD meds. When I mentioned this to my MC in our meeting yesterday she said she was planning to talk to me about that in our session.

My MC feels that I should stay in plan A for a quite a while longer. This only started Aug 1 going on 3 weeks now, so it is pretty early yet. What do you guys think about staying in plan A in my situation? I have heard about the problems that come with staying in plan A too long. BTW my MC commended me for all the work I'm doing and said from what she has observed (2 group sessions) she doesn't think I could be behaving any better (no angry outbursts, demands, or disrespect here).

One last thing, I have been thinking about writing an e-mail to the A but I don't know yet Exactly what I would say. I have tried calling many times but A will not answer. It is obvious to me that A will show WS anything I write and maybe even manipulate it first. So maybe this is a bad idea and something I should just leave alone. I just don't like the idea that he isn't feeling any pressure right now.

Thanks for all your help and support

Bump^

Shm,

Don't call too much and cut back on the ILYs. Sorry that's poison to the WS right now. At least that's what they like to think. ILY's are healthy for healthy people but WS'' are not healthy people (M wise that is).

As for communication with her parents, do it as often as you both can. If they want less communication (because it hurts them too much, then cut back).

Assume she w/b seeing the OM. How long have you been in plan A and how much longer do you think you can continue to do this w/o hurting yourself?

Plan B is not about helping the WS but helping the BS. You already are showing you are tired of the charade in plan A so why stay in it longer?

L.

Ahhhhh what is an ILY?!!!! I am not doing well right now. Been lookng through WS e-mail to see what is going on with auditions and it is killing me. I should probably stop right?
I think her parents are holding up fine right now. I have been in plan A for approx 2 weeks. And yes it's killing me because she has not been staying at home since 2 days after D-day (Aug 1st.) She also plans to move out as soon as she gets back. Ahhhhh what do I do??!! I am 5 chapters into SAA and I will probably read another while I wait and hope you are still at your computer and might answer this post.

I think I mentioned earlier that my MC recommended that I stay in Plan A for quite a while longer. I have been reading alot of posts and it seems like maybe the 2-3mo time limit might be for me. But right now it is killing me. I am startng to calm down as I type but I hope you post back soon. Thank you so much for your help!

One last thought I am starting to be confused as to what my demeanor should be when I speak with her. Should I hide saddness like nothing is wrong? and how often is too often to call?

[ August 22, 2004, 03:58 AM: Message edited by: shmaley ]

shm,
I've been reading your threads and thought I'd add my two cents for all their worth.

I am in your boat only this is my third time into the ear-high b.s. pond. My H exposed his A to me in 12/03 - it had been going on for 2 mos. He moved out for a month & came home just b4 xmas. I found out the A had rekindled in 2/04. Again, I was promised NC and it lasted 5 mos. Then the floozy called him, conveniently during a not so great time in our marriage and he's been seeing her ever since.

We have waivered between Plan A & B many times. I can only tell you from my experience, if you are in Plan A - only YOU can decide when enoughs enough. Unfortunately for both of us, our spouses have put us in the particularly uncomfortable position of being the grown-ups. If you do transition into Plan B, there are no guidelines about quantity of contact. Also, I don't think you should hide your saddness from her - BUT don't LB, don't rub her face in it. If it comes through in your conversations fine - but don't force it on her - she will only pull away.

After having been here for 9 months now, I can tell you that you are in for the most horrible ride of your life! She will say hurtful things to you and waiver back and forth and break your heart (at least what's left of it). This isn't easy, but what is usually too easy is not worth a drop in the bucket, right?

Just hang on, only you can decide what you need for you. Above all, you need to protect yourself. If your marriage should not work out (if mine doesn't either) we both need to protect ourselves so we don't end up with serious issues on the backside. It's not fair to you to bear the burden of this, but that's the way it has to be.

I know the heartache, heartbreak and just physical unrest you have - try to remember you are a good person and you will get through this! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Kind words and understanding go a long ways with me these days. Thank you for your post H&C. I wish you peace of mind at least for this day. That's all we have right one day at a time.

I have been wondering to myself alot how long will be a reasonable amount of time for Plan A if she moves out as she plans to do in the middle of next week. Should this change things? As it is the only way I have to implement Plan A is through e-mail and the phone. I just wrote her the first e-mail and I think I like it better than phone conversations. It's much easier to articulate yourself when someone isn't driving a stake through your heart.
I have asked this before but what do you H&C think about group counceling during plan B? I was told before that it would be ok but the more I read posts and SAA the more it seems like there should be no communication at all. As a veteran of both plans what do you think?

[QUOTE shmaley:
Ahhhhh what is an ILY?!!! [/QUOTE]

Orchid: ILY = I Love You.

[QUOTE shmaley: I am not doing well right now. Been lookng through WS e-mail to see what is going on with auditions and it is killing me. I should probably stop right? [/QUOTE]

Orchid: We call it the roller coaster ride. Flu like symptoms but accompanied with anxiety attacks. Recommend you see your doctor for anti D's. Try breathing exercises. As a new BS, the addiction to know all the BS is up to is hard to break. You should stop looking at what hurts you and it is commendable that you can see that but to actually stop w/b hard. Do the best you can.

re: Your heart and mind are not in sync. Your heart does not want to believe that your W would inflict such pain in your M. Your mind sees what is really happening but feels helpless as to what to do. this creates an internal confilct in the BS. Counseling and time will help. Also in some cases Anti D's. Posting here helps also.

Finish reading the books.

[QUOTE shmaley: I think her parents are holding up fine right now. I have been in plan A for approx 2 weeks. And yes it's killing me because she has not been staying at home since 2 days after D-day (Aug 1st.) She also plans to move out as soon as she gets back. Ahhhhh what do I do??!! [/QUOTE]

Orchid: Both you and her parents should become each others support. Realize that she is their daughter and may not always agree or support you.

As for her moving out..... look at it this way, as long as she is a WS, do you want her around flaunting the A and getting you to enable it? In cases like this plan B and her moving out is better for you. Not as good for the WS as they want you to believe.

Remember sometimes the best help is no help.

[QUOTE shmaley I am 5 chapters into SAA and I will probably read another while I wait and hope you are still at your computer and might answer this post.[/QUOTE]

Orchid: Keep reading. I and others will keep checking in.

[QUOTE shmaley I think I mentioned earlier that my MC recommended that I stay in Plan A for quite a while longer. I have been reading alot of posts and it seems like maybe the 2-3mo time limit might be for me. But right now it is killing me. I am startng to calm down as I type but I hope you post back soon. Thank you so much for your help![/QUOTE]

Orchid: It seems like a long time right now but it will get shorter and you will get stronger. I remember thinking 1 hour was a loooong time.

Glad to hear you are calming down a bit. Don't get too angry with yourself if you get all riled up again. Remember the roller coaster ride. You will learn how to navigate with the dips, twists and turns.

[QUOTE shmaley One last thought I am starting to be confused as to what my demeanor should be when I speak with her. Should I hide saddness like nothing is wrong? and how often is too often to call? [/QUOTE]

Orchid: When you speak with her, be yourself. Then show her your better self...... keep improving. She will see that she isn't getting better but you are,. No need to tell her, let her see it. Be sad when you need t/b. Not all the time.

As for the calling, that depends on whether you are in plan A or B. While there is no set amount of times to call, use your judgement. In plan A probably once or twice a week. Not at the same time. Keep her guessing. In paln B, none at all. She can be given the name of a reliable 3rd party.

If you can continue the e-mails but don't tell her too much. Just respond to her questions. She will wonder why you aren't preaching to her. LOL!!!! The BS should get points for confusing the WS. LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

take care,
L.

Shm,
Well, I have gone round a few times on this ride - Gotta tell ya... I want off! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

We did Plan A - or should I say I did Plan A after the second D-Day. I really didn't have much time for anything after the first - he pretty much moved out right away and spent all his time with his hussy. We talked some, then he came home. I should have implemented Plan B the day he moved out - but I didn't (hindsight...). Now here we are again 5 months later and I'm trying like hell to Plan A, but my emotions and anger are really getting the better of me. I try not to be sarcastic and hurtful - I think I'm doing okay.

Like when he said "I've really made a mess of things", I said "Yeah you have, you should have thought about that before starting this all over again". I probably could have just left it with the "yeah, you have" and been done with it. After three times, I'm starting to feel like a real loser! Am I a glutton for punishment or just plain ignorant? Sometimes I think I'm both!

If you are in Plan A, you have to go about your life. Show her that she's not getting the better of you. If you have to mow the yard, do it. If you have to go to Home Depot or to the post office, do it. When she engages you, answer her - but don't over indulge the need and wanting to inundate her with questions and professions of your love, etc.

If she does move out, then you have to go into Plan B to protect yourself. Through all this please remember - YOU ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT PERSON TO YOU - YOU HAVE TO TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF AS NO ONE ELSE WILL! You can talk throughout Plan B, but (and I mean but) only at designated times - such as counseling sessions or when bills need to be paid, children tended to, etc.

I just keep telling myself if I love him in the same strong but quiet way, it will show through and his illusion of 'happily ever after' with the floozy of the year will dissipate. My hopes are the same for you. Hang in there! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I am so angry right now I could explode! Just talked to WS on the phone to see if she got back alright from her flight. I asked if she was going to call me tomorrow so that we could set up counceling around her school schedule. She said that she wouldn'tbe able to set up any counceling until after labor day weekend. Apparently she is going to audition in A's town and will be staying there for the week.
I hate her right now so much I feel like I never want to see her again. Held my cool on the phone but was asking questions about what was up and where she was staying (this is a LB for her). Shouldn't have asked questions I guess got myself hurt and gave her some LB to think about.
I want Plan B so bad I can taste it. But I am afraid that I have not done Plan A nearly enough (only 2 weeks) to have a lasting effect. One thing is for sure though I cannot take much more of this ****.
I am trying to keep contact with her to meet any EN she will allow me to. Right now if I didn't call her I think she would not have any communication with me at all. For the last week I have dreaded calling her everytime I have done it. I probably need to councel with SH or JC because I really feel that I am losing love for her at an alarming rate right now. Never said I hated my wife before. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I know WS isn't W but she looks a lot like her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
Went to my Family Dr. yesterday and got on Lexapro. It is giving me a splitting headache, slight nausea, anxiety, dizzyness, and sleepiness. The headache is the worst part. Are these side effects just something that I should wait out? Two days is not very long but man my head really hurts. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Shmaley

P.S. Should I have asked her if she was going to see the A on her trip in our phone conversation?

[ August 25, 2004, 09:05 AM: Message edited by: shmaley ]

Bump^

SHM

I am new to this mess to - only six weeks in - but theres a couple of things I would tell you.

Firstly that knowledge will set you free. LEARN everything you can about teh dynamics and mechanics of affairs. It helped me to know that what FELT like a unique torture to me was in fact a painful template repeated in almost every affair. It doesn't remove your pain but it DOES mean that there is a lot of precedent and insight available to support you.

Second, execute againt the template. Work out Plan a/Plan B /exposures and DO it. It is ABSOLUTELY against your intuition and instinct, but you are smart and controlled and you can do it. Remember all Affairs are the same.

Thirdly you need to put youself at the top of your priority tree. In a MONTH I Guarantee you will be doing better that you can EVER imagine doing right now. When that happens you need to be healthy in heart, mind and spirit. This affair has not made you a worse person !

Finally, read folks' stories on here. Some UNBELIEVABLE successes from the worst and least promising situations imaginable.

I am too new and unwise to offer more advice, friend. Look after yourself and learn all you can.

You will be OK thorugh this if you let yourself be.

BP

Thanks for the moral support Bob Pure. Trying to look after myself but I stray sometimes. I am building a strong support base though friends and family. Going to a IC session today and feeling better after a late night and bad morning. Finished reading SAA last night and have been reading posts like mad for the last week.
About all affairs being the same, I would have to agree as well. Dishonesty is the key poison here. Without it there would probably be no affairs. Another thing you are definitely right about is this affair has not made me a worse person but a better one.
Thanks again for the post and I hope you are doing well also.

Shmaley

[ August 26, 2004, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: shmaley ]

[ August 26, 2004, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: shmaley ]

I think I figured out why my WW won't admit that the A has anything to do with her leaving. She knows deep inside that the A will probably eventually fail and doesn't want to feel like she threw away her M for a superficial relationship. So she is trying to totally blame her abandonment of me on career related issues. Issues that she doesn't want to work out but just accept that they are unresolvable problems.

She also says that she doesn't think that I would ever be able to forgive her for what she has done. She doesn't believe that we can make it through the withdrawl and subsequent resentment stage. What do I say to that? Don't want to argue can't LB!

What do you guys think!?!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

She'll say anything to justify the A. She's just human. We tend to justify why we did something that's wrong.
About the forgiving part: you're still there aren't you? You could have dumped her cold when the A came to light, but you chose not to. Forgiving her is an essential part of recovery from an A, we all know that. You want the marriage to work, so you can and will forgive her.
She will just have to trust you on that.

Thanks for the reply DB. I will keep that one in my pocket for MC if it comes up. The fact of the matter is that I could have cut and ran but I didn't and I'm sticking it out and standing my ground. Our M is worth it. Keep praying and Keep on Keeping on!

Have any of you guys ever had your WW say that she hoped she could set you up with one of her friends? Crazy woman said that to me when she first told me that she was leaving. "I hope we can be friends". I just remembered this one today. Felt like I was in an episode of saved by the bell. LOL

Foggy brained WW.

Just thought of a good reverse babble for this one. "I am your friend your not being my friend." How you like those apples! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

[ August 29, 2004, 11:26 AM: Message edited by: shmaley ]

I sent this e-mail to WW last Sunday before she left for the week to A's town. She will be there until after Labor day.

WW,

How are you feeling today? I was just thinking about you and thought I would communicate some of my feelings to you. There is so many things that we need to talk about. I don't believe there is any order for these kinds of things so I'll just pick a place and start.

In the past, I have put my job before us and that was a terrible mistake on my part. For this I am deeply sorry. I should have been more interested in your needs to move forward in your career and develop your talents. I am willing to work with you to find a great career solution that we will both be excited about. Moving to another state is not a problem when we are planning for these events. By working together we can come up with some very thoughtful and mutually acceptable solutions for our career paths. In the past we have always talked about this but never worked together to an end solution. We either tabled the issue indefinitely, forced our own way, or just gave in with out a thoughtful discussion. Do you remember when we decided to move to "City"? We came upon that one together. It scared me but I knew that in the end we would be alright. The next one we worked on together was the decision to stay here. There were good reasons for that decision at the time. Now as things have not worked out in respect to our present career paths it is time for another decision. We both know decisions can be difficult and confusing sometimes but together we can conquer them.

I want you to know that you are in my heart and my prayers. Although, I don't agree with what you are doing right now I still believe you are a good person. I have always admired your caring and loving personality and true heart. Please let me know that you have received this e-mail either through a reply or the next time I talk to you. We won't need to discuss any of this if you don't feel like it but I am always here if you need me.

With my love

C.

She never replied but I know that she got it because I asked her on the phone. She apologized for not responding.

What do you guys think? If she is too fogged she will probably just ignore this right? I don't want to over do this kind of thing but feel compelled to explain what I am feeling to her.
Orchid I am hopeing that you will post back on this one. I am going to call you out on the subject.

Thanks,

C.

[ August 29, 2004, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: shmaley ]

I have been thinking about this a lot. And at one point I was obsessed with it. Have been considering doing a criminal background check on OM and finding his parents or whatever family he has to out him and WW. OM lives a couple of states away and is with my WW as I type. Just love the thought of him being humiliated by his family caught with my WW visiting.

Is this over the top?

I know it would be a LB but wouldn't it be worth it in the end? This long distance A they are in is making it hard for them to see each others faults. At least that is my perception.

I would appreciate your opinion on this one as well Orchid.

shmaley,

Sorry for the delay. Been frantically packing our container and haven't been on MB much. All the same, I read your posts and can see your obessing. Very normal but dangerous thing for a BS t/d. I understand that you feel you must do this because you are fighting for your M.

Ok, let's put your energies to work in a positive way. You have read SAA, met with your IC and read this forum. Now take the EN questionnaire located in the concepts section above. Do it once as yourself and 2nd as your W. Let us know how it turns out. Then get ahold of the books His Needs/Her Needs & Giver/Taker both are by Dr W. Harley. Also the book Love must be Tough by Dr James Dobson w/b good reading.

See if you can schedule a phone session or 2 with Jennifer @ MB. She is great working w/WS'.

Have you started your journal yet? It will help you keep that obessive desire in check. Also you can do a background check on the OM. Keep your journal and findings in a safe place. Write a vent letter or OM family/work contact letter if you need but DON'T send it. ...... Not yet. Keep that in a safe place also.

U now have a lot to do. Get crackin'. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You will have great support here. Some of the other guys are going through the same if not worse and they have all weathered it quite well. It is definitely hard at first.

Why? Because you are battling the unknown with a lot of intentionally misleading statements/actions. Also your mind and heart are not in sync yet and you are frustrating yourself.

Once your know this, it will help you get stable and make a working plan of action.

Gotta go, keep posting, ok? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

take care,
L.

Started my journal (been putting that one off) and it does help. Started looking up info that I need for the BG check. That was painful. Almost started to have an anxiety attack but got through it. I will type out my story next in detail to keep from wasting time on the phone with Jennifer C. And I'll try to get to the questionaire tonight and order the Giver/Taker and Love must be tough on Monday. Thanks for the direction Orchid I really needed it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi,

Good to see your progress. You got a lot done in 1 day. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Keep up the good work. Pace yourself. ok? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

take care,
L.

Have some important questions that I have been thinking about.

WW has said to me in counseling and to two other close sources that she does not believe that I will be able to forgive and not resent her for what she has done. Have heard this echoed enough at this point that I believe it is a real issue and not just babble. The reason she uses to back this up is that when I had an A before we were M she tried everything to get me back and felt like she had forgiven me. Now during one of our counseling sessions she has come to the conclusion that she has not and has been resenting me. Now because of this she does not have the faith that I have the capacity to forgive her. How do I combat this? Right now I feel I can definitely forgive her but she has to agree to NC. We have only discussed NC once in our MC and she said she was not willing to do that right now. However, she maintained that it still had nothing to do with her leaving. "That is babble I think."

I need to be prepared to combat this angle!

Through this experience and talking to many of her "good" friends and family I have discovered that she has a great need to avoid conflict. I guess that I was just oblivious to this before. But this is coming to the top as one of the most significant issues. As one of her best friends described it "WW has always let others make decisions for her to avoid any conflict and she is still doing it now". I recognize this now because I could never get a straight answer out of her like "yes" or "no". She would always say "If you want to", "I guess so", or "I don't care". Even when I pushed her she would refuse to give a definite answer. Big Big Giver!

Another question I have is when she gets back should I try to get her to do things with me? Like go out for a walk in the park or some other activity that we might enjoy. I know that she will tell me that she doesn't have enough time. Since she says that she is moving out when she gets back my plan A is going to suffer even more. She already wasn't even staying at home. What is the most plan A way to get her to spend some time with me? And when we do go out shouldn't I just keep it simple and not talk about anything serious?

On the lighter side, I have been learning to take care of myself better everyday. I have started running in the mornings and learning how to cook. The cooking thing will really blow WW away. I should probably invite her over to dinner and cook for her maybe that would be a good activity! Anyways, just trying to get my head straight this morning. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

C.

[ September 01, 2004, 10:24 AM: Message edited by: shmaley ]

Bump^

Shmaley,

Sorry for the delayed response.

Good to hear about your personal improvements..... don't flaunt them, just show them up casually..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> No invites for dinner just eat it in front of her or invite others and dazzle them.... they c/b your promoters. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

As for her statements about u not being able to forgive her....well that is fog babble. Why? Because you forgiving her is YOUR choice not her's. Babble back that it c/b true (your not forgiving her) but that is YOUR choice NOT hers.

Keep up the good work. Let us know your cooking specialities. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

L.

Called WW this morning. She is still in OM town 15 hrs away. She didn't answer so I left a message said some nice caring things in a confident and happy voice and ended with "I hope you have a good day." I have said that to her every morning for the last 2 years before I went to work. There was no ILY's on the message. The last time I called her was on Thurs over a week ago. Is this too little contact? I don't think it is too much but I have been trying to keep my distance right now as I am the one that has to initiate all contact. Just need to get my head straight about where the boundaries are.

On other topics what do I say if she refuses MC counseling? She has said to her parents and friends that she will go but not for how long. I can see her trying to drop the counseling and saying "yeah I went" just because she went to a few sessions. I know that I cannot control what she does I just want to know what tact to take if this occurs. WW's do not like having it rubbed in their face that what they are doing is wrong. Nor do they like to be asked to think about how their actions compare to their values. So I could see her trying to bail before long or when it starts to get rough.

Another thing I was wondering about WW says her morals have changed. Fogtalk... How would I babble back to that one? When she said this in MC I asked her if she still believed in God, she said "yes". We have not been church goers but this was one of the first questions she ever asked me when we were courting. Her parents have taught in religious schools for years and she was raised going to church every week. So at least she has not denounced her faith yet.

A question about exposure. Right now her parents and some friends know about the A. When will I expose this to the OP parents? I have names and addresses and have started to draft a letter. Should I consider exposing at the University that she works at? Some of these people she respects and have given her good advice in the past Should I expose to the pastor that married us? She hand picked him as he was a friend of her family. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Cooking pasta premavera with alfredo sauce tonight for some friends. I have never done the alfredo sauce before so wish me luck. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

C.

[ September 05, 2004, 01:35 AM: Message edited by: shmaley ]

Dinner went great. Everybody liked my sauce but I think I can do better. The problem now is the usual no sleep. Mental unrest is really set in tonight. I think I will have another beer and listen to some Chet Baker. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />shmaley: Called WW this morning. She is still in OM town 15 hrs away. She didn't answer so I left a message said some nice caring things in a confident and happy voice and ended with "I hope you have a good day." I have said that to her every morning for the last 2 years before I went to work. There was no ILY's on the message. The last time I called her was on Thurs over a week ago. Is this too little contact? <hr /></blockquote>Orchid: If you were told that she didn't answer because she is with the OM, would you still want to leave that msg?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />shmaley: On other topics what do I say if she refuses MC counseling? She has said to her parents and friends that she will go but not for how long. I can see her trying to drop the counseling and saying "yeah I went" just because she went to a few sessions. I know that I cannot control what she does I just want to know what tact to take if this occurs. WW's do not like having it rubbed in their face that what they are doing is wrong. Nor do they like to be asked to think about how their actions compare to their values. So I could see her trying to bail before long or when it starts to get rough. <hr /></blockquote>Orchid: It is her choice to refuse counseling. It is also your choice to then implement plan B. Whenever she chooses to bail is also her choice. Then it is your choice to let her continue to hurt you or not.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />shmaley: Another thing I was wondering about WW says her morals have changed. Fogtalk... How would I babble back to that one? When she said this in MC I asked her if she still believed in God, she said "yes". .... So at least she has not denounced her faith yet. <hr /></blockquote>Orchid: Agree with her. Her morals have changed and probably her scent also. WS' have a stench (figuratively and even physically) that reeks of the A. I used that spin on my WS and of course he couldn't smell it but I told him that he stunk when he came around. This allowed me to disfuse his WS anger. Smell is a strong sense and can leave a lasting impression. When he'd come around and act up (angry mode), I'd start to sniff the air. He'd ask what's the matter and I'd reply 'not sure but something kinda stinks around here, where you been anyways?' <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I often knew he had just been with the OW (unaswered phone calls, he'd confess or the OW would call and say he was just with her). Anyway it was a useful tool for me. Can't use it tooo often though.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />shmaley: A question about exposure. Right now her parents and some friends know about the A. When will I expose this to the OP parents? I have names and addresses and have started to draft a letter. Should I consider exposing at the University that she works at? Some of these people she respects and have given her good advice in the past Should I expose to the pastor that married us? She hand picked him as he was a friend of her family. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Orchid: How is her family and your friends reacting to it? Further exposure to the OP's side and work can be done but cautiously. You don't want her fired but if the work is enabling the A then some exposure maybe needed. I would concentrate on the family/friends 1st. As for the pastor, let him know. Can he help you?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />shmaley: Cooking pasta premavera with alfredo sauce tonight for some friends. I have never done the alfredo sauce before so wish me luck. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

C. <hr /></blockquote>Orchid: Heard your dinner went well. I'm quite proud of you. I always admire a man who cooks and washes dishes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> It ranks high on my EN scale. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Can you come over and teach my H? Just kidding. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

take care,
L.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Orchid: If you were told that she didn't answer because she is with the OM, would you still want to leave that msg? <hr /></blockquote>Shmaley: I assumed that this might be the case. So Yes. Am I making myself a doormat here? If I am being a doormat how could I have avoided this? Different msg... No msg....???

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Orchid: How is her family and your friends reacting to it? <hr /></blockquote>Shmaley: Her parents have told her it is wrong and basically condemmed the relationship. However, they are cautious not to tell her what to do for fear that she will lock them out. I wish they were more stern but I am just going off of impressions of what has been said anyways. I don't know what most of her friends have said but they have encouraged her to go to counseling.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Orchid: Further exposure to the OP's side and work can be done but cautiously. You don't want her fired but if the work is enabling the A then some exposure maybe needed. I would concentrate on the family/friends 1st. <hr /></blockquote>Shmaley: Does OP = OM . Sorry I am confused here. When should I expose to the OM's family? I realize the possibility that WW will retaliate by not going to MC. Is this exposure worth the trade? As for her work it only enables the A as far as her attempting to get auditions where OM lives. They are allowing her time off to audition in OM's city is this considered enabling? As far as family and friends only her parents and close aunt know. Other exposures in the family could be very damaging to recovery. If her grandparents found out they would likely disown her reguardless of the outcome.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Orchid: As for the pastor, let him know. Can he help you? <hr /></blockquote>Shmaley: I will let him know. I am sure that he will talk to her if I ask him to. However, I do not know if she will recieve him. Unfortunately I think that he may have moved out of state at this point so he may only be able to call her.

BTW I have started Fall in Love Stay in Love and have already read SAA and HNHN. In what order should I try to get WW to read these books? I am assuming that I should not ask her to read SAA because of plan A / plan B.

C.

[ September 07, 2004, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: shmaley ]

Set up IC session with Jennifer C. 9PM/CST tonight. I will post back on how it went tonight.

Hi Shmaley,

Don't be a doormat. Not very becoming. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

OP = Other person c/b OM or OW.

Don't worry about getting the WS to read anything. While in the midst of the A, they don't have the brain capacity to retain the info anyway. U just take care of you. U do your reading. Work on making yourself shine. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Have a good session with Jennifer C. Here she is really good.

Let us know how it went. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

L.

My session with Jennifer C. went really well. She really knows her stuff. What I need to do now is a lot of reading and focusing on plan A. She suggested that I keep contact down to 2 - 3 times a week and continue to write e-mails explaining what I have learned in my studys. I need to know what I want out of our marriage well enough to put it into my own words. Basically, stay away from MB terminology. I must know the books well enough to paraphrase and put their concepts into practical use.

Jennifer advised against exposing to the OM's parents until I go to plan B. Reason is because it would be a LB and there is a good chance that they would not do anything anyways. I forgot to ask her about exposing to our pastor but I will probably just confide in him without asking him to call WW for now.

Last night WW told our Roommate that she would be comming by to get a few things sometime. I was freaking out because I didn't want her to come over while I was in IC. So I called her and told her that I was busy this evening until 10:15 and that she could come over then if she wanted. I also invited her to an earlier dinner that Roommate and I were cooking. She thanked me for the invite said that she had already eaten and would just come by tomorrow during the day. Jennifer suggested that I leave her a note telling her how I have missed her while she was gone and give her something that was thoughtful. So I left her a note with a my picture printed on the bottom smiling, said something like the above and left her candy that I know makes her happy. Not pushy or gushy just nice. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Well, that's the bulk of it I will update more thoroughly on what I have left out after I have some time to go over my notes.

C.

Morning,

Glad you had a good session with Jennifer. Small and steady progress.

It is a good idea NOT to use MB terms with the WS. Not yet anyways. As it is, any human language is too foreign to most of them. That's why we talk about them being aliens from the mothership. LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Know that she may hate your nice acts. Don't let that hurt you too much. It definitely will hurt some. Realize that it is the A alien attitude that is at play here and the nicer you are, the more angry she may get. Have a back up plan on how to react. This is when you will appreciate the value of plan B. But for now, sharpen up your plan A.

Geeze, I would never turn down an invite to dinner if a handsome talented man was cooking it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . That's another gauge you can use. See her sense of reason is warped. Don't readjust her head. Let her walk around with her head tilted to the side. She sees the world from a totally different angle right now. You can't fix it. The mirror is cracked and she thinks she is seeing it clearly. Others can see it. Use that as your support.

As for exposure, Jennifer is right on the $$ on that one. Plan the exposure well. Timing is important. You don't know how much more you will have by then and maybe they will have seen some of it also. Remember you know your W and they don't, they c/b thinking you are both out to get their 'innocent' son. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Go do your homework and let us know how you are doing. Quite proud of you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

take care,
L.

Well, WW didn't come by in the morning to see my note. She called me after work to say that she was going to come by to get some clothes. I told her that was fine but that I wouldn't be there because I was going to workout. I was on the road in a loaner car because mine is getting fixed when she called and the radio was going. I don't have a radio in my car so she asked who I was with I said no one. Then I explained the situation. This is the first time she has expressed any interest in anything to do with me in over a month. I also found out that she was asking questions at her work about what was up with the phone call I was taking when I didn't want her to come over. My friend did not tell her that it was an IC session. If she asks me I will tell her. WW seemed irritated when she was asking my friend about this. She did not act irritated to me when I was talking about it with her the night before. Do I get points for that one? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

When I got home after working out I was preparing myself for the worst just in case. All she took was a large framed picture, some kick nack stuff out of our bedroom and a picture of us together in front of our house. It kind of took me back that she took the picure of us. Seems like a good sign but I don't want to read too much into it.

I studied my notes from the IC session and finished a letter that I had been drafting to WW. The letter is full of concepts that are put into my words. Nothing to intense mind you and only one page. I used some examples of "Good" things from our past as well as put into words what I wanted our marriage to become. Expressed regret for the way our marriage was before and showed her admiration for the person she is. I also told her that I do not judge her and have forgiven her for hurting me.

I hope this isn't over doing it. It doesn't feel like I did but I am being cautious. Everything I wrote is true. Should I hand write this letter and mail it? Or maybe put it on a card and mail it to her? Let me know what you think. I don't want to e-mail her anymore stuff because although she checks her e-mail she really hates computers. My computer usage has been a big LB in the past. So it probably is best that I hand write it.

C.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />shmaley: Well, WW didn't come by in the morning to see my note. She called me after work to say that she was going to come by to get some clothes. I told her that was fine but that I wouldn't be there because I was going to workout. <hr /></blockquote>Orchid: So she asked to pick up her clothes but she picked up other stuff instead. (see the mixed message from the WS?).... remember this.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />shmaley:I was on the road in a loaner car because mine is getting fixed when she called and the radio was going. I don't have a radio in my car so she asked who I was with I said no one. Then I explained the situation. This is the first time she has expressed any interest in anything to do with me in over a month. I also found out that she was asking questions at her work about what was up with the phone call I was taking when I didn't want her to come over. My friend did not tell her that it was an IC session. If she asks me I will tell her. WW seemed irritated when she was asking my friend about this. She did not act irritated to me when I was talking about it with her the night before. Do I get points for that one? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Orchid: While in this stage in the future, don't be soo quick to give the details. You want her to keep inquiring about you. When she called and asked if anyone was with you, just say no. The shorter the responses, the more she will wonder. The more she wonders about you, the more time she spends away from the A.

U get 80 points out of 100. But hey, whose keeping score? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />shmaley: When I got home after working out I was preparing myself for the worst just in case. All she took was a large framed picture, some kick nack stuff out of our bedroom and a picture of us together in front of our house. It kind of took me back that she took the picure of us. Seems like a good sign but I don't want to read too much into it. <hr /></blockquote>Orchid: Interesting. File this info away and keep watching out for more alien sightings. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />shmaley: I studied my notes from the IC session and finished a letter that I had been drafting to WW. The letter is full of concepts that are put into my words. Nothing to intense mind you and only one page. I used some examples of "Good" things from our past as well as put into words what I wanted our marriage to become. Expressed regret for the way our marriage was before and showed her admiration for the person she is. I also told her that I do not judge her and have forgiven her for hurting me.<hr /></blockquote>Orchid: I'd double check with your IC if letting her know you forgive her or admiring the person she is along with not judging her is really the message you want to convey. To me those are green lights that you are approving any bad behavior including your willingness to enable the A.

I recommend something more like:

1. Recall some hi-lites of the M, happy and sad.
2. An incident or 2 of how you worked well together on various situations.
3. No mention of ILY to her as she is
4. Acknowledge that this separation is hard but necessary.
5. Look forward to speaking to your W and sharing a special message with your W.
6. For now you are working on improving yourself and making permanent changes (WS like to pull the 'I like the changes but don't know if they will last' crap excuse on the BS).

7. Hope she is making positive changes also.

8. End the letter short and sweet.

Run the letter by your IC or even here on MB if you want. If you could have a session with Jennifer @ MB (via phone counseling), that w/b super. She is real good. There are several good guys here that could critique your letter for you. Ask for WAT or JL. There are lots more great MB guys here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />shmaley: I hope this isn't over doing it. It doesn't feel like I did but I am being cautious. Everything I wrote is true. Should I hand write this letter and mail it? Or maybe put it on a card and mail it to her? Let me know what you think. I don't want to e-mail her anymore stuff because although she checks her e-mail she really hates computers. My computer usage has been a big LB in the past. So it probably is best that I hand write it. <hr /></blockquote>Orchid: When you choose to send it, use the method you think will be most acceptable. Handwritten vs computer is your call. Just don't be too mushy (probably a pretty card c/b harder to write all you want). Handwritten letter will make her work to read it. This could put it in her brain more permanently.

JMHO,
L.

[ September 09, 2004, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]

This is the 2nd draft. Let me know what you guys think. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

WW,

How are you feeling today? Good I hope. I wanted you to know that I have been learning a lot about marriage and what it takes to have a good one. Wish you were here with me to share this experience. I've come to realize so many areas where we were having problems and probably didn't even know it. When I look at the way our marriage was I realize that it has been a very sad marriage. Not because either one of us wasn't trying, but because we did not give each other the emotional gifts that we both deserved.

I would like to share with you some of the elements of the marriage I have always wanted for us. A marriage in which we both make each other the center of attention. A marriage in which we protect each other. A marriage in which we always work together to come up with thoughtful solutions for the challenges we face. A marriage in which we put each other first before anything else. When I last wrote you I wrote about our decision making processes and how they used to work. I have learned that if we make decisions with only one person in mind we are not helping but hurting the marriage. It’s when we work together that we come up with the best ideas and solutions to our problems.

Do you remember when we first met each other and we used to talk about "Head games"? We were so honest with each other that we would stop mid-sentence and admit we were saying something to get the other to do something. I was so proud that we could be that honest with each other. When I told other people about this they just couldn't understand what I was even talking about. The few people that did understand knew that what we had was going to be something special. We both knew it too.

It is very hard being away from you but I know it is necessary. I look forward to speaking with you and sharing a special message. For now I am working hard on myself, making positive and permanent changes in my lifestyle. I hope you are making changes to.

Well, I have to go for now my life has gotten so busy it seems. Make sure to take care of yourself.

With my Love,

Me

I took out the stuff you talked about Orchid. I think you were probably right on that one. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

C.

The end of a traumatic but triumphant night. WW called me earlier today to tell me she was coming over to pack up clothes and some other things. Total panic hit me but I stayed calm. I told her that I wasn't going to be home for a while but I hoped to see her while she was there. Stayed very up beat and happy on the phone. I went to get a haircut and rushed home to make sure I caught her.Turns out she was moving all her clothes (3 closets worth) and some pieces of furniture.

I made sure to make myself available to help move. She wouldn't let me at first but I persisted and then she asked me to do a few things. We talked about some finance issues and she started to get stressed out (finances is a big LB) so I diffused the situation by letting the conversation die. I told her that we just had a few extra expenses to think about and that we would make it.

After I had helped moving for a while I went to the store with one of her friends to get some trash bags for clothes. As soon as we left I asked how WW was doing the friend replied "Not good at all". She has been crying many times a day and is obviously very conflicted. She is very confused why I still want her even after I know that she spent the week with OM. I made sure that her friend knew that I was very concerned about how WW felt. And that it made me sad to know that she was in pain. Her friend brought up that WW said that I wanted the old M back. I made sure that she knew that I did not want the old M back but a new one. I told her that all that matters right now is what is happening right now and what will happen in the future. I told her all this because I knew she would tell WW.

When I got back I helped a little more then retreated because I was starting to feel stressed. Told them I would be downstairs if they needed any help. Checked the forum and no answer for my letter. Then it dawned on me that my computer was a LB and I should not spend time with it while WW was in the house. So I called a friend and set up a meeting. Went back upstairs and changed and asked WW to help me pick out a shirt. I have been working out and hoped that she would notice.

Had dinner at my friends house and when I came back WW was still there packing. I helped a little more and was polite to her roommate who is a friend. Started to stress again so I told them I would be downstairs if they needed me. When I went downstairs WW's friend was there and filled me in on what had been said. WW noticed that I looked good from working out. She was also impressed that I had made the pasta primavera w/ alfredo sauce from scratch. Apparently, everything that I do that is nice just makes her feel even more conflicted. So we talked a little bit more and she went back up to help.

When WW finally got ready to leave I met her inside the front door. She was starting to cry and I gave her a hug and she hugged back real tight. I told her that she could call me any time day or night if she needed me. She nodded and hugged me a little more. Then went outside and left.

Our roommate went with her this time to take a few things over to her new place. When roommate got back she told me that WW cried al the way over and didn't stop crying until they started moving things around in the house. Roommate and I talked for a while and after about 45min. We heard someone upstairs walking around. I went upstairs and it was WW back to get more clothes (these are just the clothes she was keeping...LOL). She said sorry if we woke you up we just came back to get a few more things. I said that's fine no problem do you need some help. This time she was very accepting of my help. I helped them move the rest of the clothes out to the car. While we were outside her friend told me that what I was doing was working and she thought it was great. She also told me that WW said to her that the only thing that was keeping her from coming back was the sex. We agreed that this was a monumental step forward. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

WW seemed to be in a happier mood than before and I continued to charm her as much as I could. Just being very agreeable and nice the whole time. When WW got ready to leave she said she was hungry I instantly offered to make her something to eat. She acted like she might want me to and I pushed a little offering a few choices. Finally got her talked into it and I made her and her friend a couple of sandwiches and we all stood around in the kitchen talking and smiling a little.

Whew!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Well, now for a question. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

WW and I have always had sexual problems. Sex is painful for her and this has always been a big LB. This has not been a problem with her two A's. So the question is should the next counseling session I try to schedule with her be with a sex therapist? She has agreed to continue going to MC but even Jennifer C. said that MC is a waste while the A is still active. If sex is becoming the next big hurdle in WW's mind shouldn't I see if she will consider going to a sex therapist with me? Lots to think about here.

C.

[ September 10, 2004, 02:45 AM: Message edited by: shmaley ]

C,

U R doing good!!! Very proud of you and I love the letter. Wow.... let's see what the others think of it. WAT is on the eastern coast (not sure if he is under water or not. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> JL is on the west coast and often busy on the JFO board. If they don't respond by tomorrow, I'll yell from waaay out here in the blue pacific, ok? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You handled yourself well. You also have an alliance in her roommate but don't count it on 100%, ok? Use it when you can but be prepared she may pull back a bit.

As for the s3x, check it out with your IC. Something isn't sounding right. You don't need to spill all here, check it out with Jennifer @ MB when you can.

Keep up the good work.

L.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

{{{{Orchid}}}}

C.

Ok U guys...... need your input on this letter which I think is great. But your opinions are very much needed.

L.

WW was suppose to come by today and get some dresser drawers. She finally called just a little while ago and said that her and friend were going out to get some Thai food. Then they would be be going to a coffee shop that me and WW always went to and asked me if I wanted to meet them there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Sounds good to me I told her. She also asked if I had fixed the drawers that were broken in the dresser. She didn't expect that they were yet but I had it taken care of. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

I decided to write the letter earlier and have put it with the dresser drawers. Got curious after I got off the phone with her to see if she had been in very much contact with OM. Looked up the phone bill and saw that she has (I expected that). But once I got to analyzing the calls two things stood out. One, She has called him 20 times in the past 11 days and he has called her 4. And his calls were all in the last 2 days. Two, there was a call last night for 106 min. which is the longest call they have ever had. This could mean something is up with the A or it could mean nothing. Anyway, I am prepared to let her know the type of marriage I want and what my boundaries are as far as NC.

Sounds good but I won't get my hopes up too much.

Sounds good 2 me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

take care,
L.

I am not one of the experts you asked for but I am a woman, and I love the letter.

It is very hard to believe you are only 29, you are ions ahead of where I was at that age.

Not too mushy, no self pity - just a wonderfully expressive letter which shows your head is in a very good place.

Thanks for the encouragement Weaver. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Last night went pretty well I guess got WW to talk about some relationship issues. I made sure that she was willing to talk. Since she is a conflict avoider she will say stuff like "ok" "if you want to" or "I guess". I was met with all of these responses when I asked if she wanted to talk last night. So I said "only if you are ready to talk about it." And "it's ok if you aren't ready yet." She said I was being very patient. Eventually, we sat down and started to talk.

She said that she knew that she was the bad guy here and was wrong. I didn't disagree but then steered the conversation toward why the M that we had was one that allowed this to happen. Talked about protection and how we had not had any enough for each other. Talked about our givers and takers how they worked in our relationship and why they were both bad. Talked about thoughtful negotiation, how it works and our specific failures in this area. Talked about my biggest LB "disrespectful judgements" and examples of how I had abused this. She agreeded that she had been guilty of the same through her independent behaviors. She said that she was acting that way out of spite. At one point, toward the beginning of the conversation WW said that I had her Respect and Admiration for how I was handling this situation.

Overall, it was a productive and thoughtful discussion. I made sure that she did not feel that I was lecturing her. She said I did not have my lecturing tone tonight. I had to fight my anger a couple of times early on in the night though. Just some of her inconsiderate behavior started to get to me a little. That and when I got to her new place all I could think was how stupid this all was. Kept going through my head over and over. I guess this is the beginnings of resentment. How can I nip this in the bud? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I asked her if she was ready to talk about the sex issues we had and she though about it and said she was not yet. I told her that was fine and that I was willing to discuss it when ever she is ready to. I have been educating myself as much as I can on this topic and probably need to understand more before we discuss it anyways. Like Jennifer C. said I need to become the expert. That way I will know exactly what path to lead my spouse down so that we can be on the same page. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

[ September 13, 2004, 01:10 AM: Message edited by: shmaley ]

Morning Shmaley,

U sound much stronger today. There w/b good and bad days. As for your feelings of anger and frustration, you are handling it well. It is not to be totally surpressed since the time to deal with your feelings by your W will come but not while she is a WS. As a BS we deal with our feelings via other means such as posting here (venting), IC/MC and our personal support system. When the WS comes back to the spouse mode, then at the proper time, they will be given back that responsibility.

Weaver, U R one of the 'MB experts' Shmaley needs to hear from. Thanks for responding. His letter is great and I am quite proud of how he learned to put it together sooo well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

take care,
L.

WW came over this evening without calling before hand and alone. This is a first since she left on the 3rd or 4th of August. I was just finishing up with a student and she knows my schedule so I am guessing she planned on seeing me. She was very plesant and had a smile on. I does my heart well to see her that way again.

She came by to get some CD's and a another bag of clothes (we could clothe the entire local girl scout troop for a month). While she was here I showed her a piece of trim that I had stained with the stain that we picked out and asked her opinion on wether we should go with this color. She liked it and so we agreed that I would go ahead with it. Our first POJA success!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I also showed her some furniture that my grandparents had given us that she had always wanted and we talked about where it would fit in the house the best. POJA #2 Bada Bing!!

After that she looked through a few more CD's to take to her place. I asked her if she would like to watch a movie tonight or maybe go for a walk if she had time. She said that she was already suppose to watch a movie with her roommate and probably didn't have time. I told her that was fine and helped her take the clothes to her car. When we got to the car she said bye and for the first time was the one who initiated the hug good bye. I told her to have a good day and she said you too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

How ya like those apples!!! Feeling stoked right now. Can we still say stoked? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I went inside and finished reading Fall in Love Stay in Love. Forgot to mention, while she was in the house she saw that I was reading a book and I could tell she was looking at the binder to see what it was. After I finished college I quit reading all together. She reads all the time. So that could have potentially even made a LB deposit.

Sounds like she is opening up some and not dreading my presence. All in all it's been a really good day!!!

C.

[ September 13, 2004, 01:11 AM: Message edited by: shmaley ]

What do I think of them apples?

I think MB has another poster child <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I just read a reply you gave to another poster, and wanted to say you really rock at this.

You have a way about you that is so evolved for a 29 year old, it really amazes me.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

{{{Weaver}}}

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

C.

I'm home sick today and WW just came by. She was nice but I am starting to see her as a fence rider. Something may be happening as the uncharacteristically long calls to OM continue. Usually her calls have been under 40 min and most of the time only 20min. After the move out they have been 106min and over 80min.. There was also one right before the 80 min. one to her Dad that was 97min..

Right now I want to call her Dad really bad and see if I can coax any info out of him. I have tried to call another family confident and she is not answering.

WW was nice to me and asked if she could do anything for me. She got me a glass of water and sat next to me while I lay on the couch. She also asked if I wanted her to knock on the door when she comes over I told her "no". What do you think Orchid? I figured since I was in plan A I should make everything that is not enabling the A inviting. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

She started to open some mail from the symphony that she auditioned for that I know she was offered a low paying position for (like $3,000 a year and in a Large metro area.) It was a map and she said " why would they send me a map I need to know if they want me to play". This drove me absolutely NUTS!!! I wanted to scream you thoughtless insensitive *****. How dare you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I bit my tounge and it was hard. I wanted to ask why are you wondering if they want you to play. What the h*** are you thinking. I have her respect and admiration but I guess that just means NOTHING. GRRRRRRRRRR!!!! ROAWR!!! *chews numberpad off keyboard*. I liked that keyboard too.

Aliens GO HOME!!! You are not wanted on our planet.

*panting* *panting* *panting*

I am sick and needed to rest and now I am sooo angry that I am back to gritting my teeth. She seems to come over almost everyday. I don't know how much I like that with her non-committal attitude. It feels like she is being nice to me and feeling like everything is ok. Like you know ok from the point of view that I am dealing well with this situation so let me just relax and set what hits me as the best thing to do since the pressure is off. Which brings me to a question.

How when and under what circumstance should I discuss the A with her? I avoid this topic and she does not talk about it either. I know that serious talks more often hurt the relationship than help it. Should I get her to counsel with Jennifer C.? Jennifer said though that it would not do much good but we could try it as though we were in recovery so that WS could learn something. Maybe I should do another IC with Jennifer C.. Maybe I could just calm down. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I know that I am overreacting right now to some stupid crap fog babble that goofy Alien WW came up with. But it kind of feels good. I really do want some input on those questions even though the answers are probably already here.

Given the phone chatter there is probably something happening and I need to just chill out and quit torturing myself. Hard to do when someone is taunting you though.

C.

Hi Shmaley,

Sorry you are not feeling well. Hope it's a short term virus.

As for the right time to speak to a WS about R or M, there isn't a right time. You do what you need for your healing. NO teaching a WS, they are tooo fogged in to learn.

So take care of yourself.....chicken soup, hot toddie, etc..... get rested and get well.

Let her wonder about you, ok? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

take care,
L.

Had to go to work sick. There is no AC here today. I feel like crap and I can't quit dwelling. Not having a good day. Feeling like I have no direction again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

C.

I need a pep talk.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> She also asked if I wanted her to knock on the door when she comes over I told her "no". What do you think Orchid? I figured since I was in plan A I should make everything that is not enabling the A inviting. <hr /></blockquote>Was this a mistake? She is coming over too much I think. She asked if she could take one of the dogs over to visit her and I told her sure. Should I have said no? I am letting her do what ever she wants right now.

As far as our money goes I have so far acted as though we are paying for everything together. If she tries to take a trip to see OM though I will not be up for allocating funds to that. She does not make enough money to pay all of her bills and make any trips. But since we are paying together it will basically be padded so that she will be able to use left over money in her account. Since I am stuck with the mortgage and Bills for a large house and she is not paying them. Sounds like there is no solution here. If I make our finances totally separate that would be a big LB and should be saved for right when I go into plan B. I see finances as at least one place to practice POJA and I don't want to give that up.

Need direction. Advice. Help! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

C.

[ September 14, 2004, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: shmaley ]

Here's a letter I just wrote please give me some input.

WW,

How are you feeling today. Good I hope. I have been thinking about our talk the other night and wanted to share some more of my feelings with you. It was good to finally sit down and discuss some of the issues that we face.

One of the things that I have recently learned about myself is my great need for honesty. It makes me feel connected to you when you share your dreams and goals with me. With honesty we can make thoughtful plans for today and tomorrow. With honesty we can prepare to catch each other before we fall. With honesty we can help each other through times like these. With honesty we can build a marriage full of happiness and understanding. Not having this need for honesty met is one of the things that has saddened me the most in our marriage. Honesty was one of the things that we originally bonded through.

Something that I have been thinking about a lot is a conversation that we had where you told me about overspending on the store credit cards. I remember my reaction well. Angry outburst followed by lecture and demanding the cards. That night I punished you for giving me that which I desired the most, the truth. I want you to know that you can tell me anything that has happened in the past that you have not yet told me. Even if you can't tell me today I will always be here for you to talk to when you need me. I will never again punish you for telling me the truth.

Today, I am focused on what is happening right now and what will happen in the future. I am committed to learning more about myself and why I make the decisions that I do. I do not want the same marriage we had before but a better one and I am willing to work for it.

Well it's getting late and I need to get some rest. Take care of yourself.

With my Love,

Me

C.

Shmaley,

Sorry you are still under the weather. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

As for her coming and going, well if it is hurting you, then maybe plan B needs to be revisited a bit more seriously.

Now as to your letter, why are you sending another one? I see you have a lot to say but talking sense to a WS is often like spitting in the wind. Good stuff but it just shoots right past a WS.

Save it for a better opportunity. As for promising NOT to get mad at her again, I'd temper taht statement down..... the truth can hurt and you are vulnerable to an LB or 2.

Instead you could say something like: The last time you gave me some truth, it hurt and I did get angry. While I can't promise NOT to get angry again, I will certainly work hard to appreciate your truthful yet hurtful statements instead of just reacting off the cuff. Of course, it w/b better if the truth c/b filled with more good stuff. Then it w/b easier for me NOT to get upset. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

See end on a light note and still get your point across without making any commitments.

JMHO,
L.

Thanks for the pointer on the letter. As usual I think you are right. It is not realistic to say I will never get angry again. As well, your statement puts some of the responsibility back on her which is where it needs to be. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

As for why I am writing another one. I am writing it in advance and will send it when I feel the time is right. Just really needed to feel like I was doing something positive. Because I was sick I couldn't even work on myself and that has been my outlet. Jennifer C. said I should "persue" WS and try to share with her what I have learned. Even though she will probably not respond while the A is still active. As Jennifer C. put it I am planting little seeds with these letters that will grow later.

Jennifer also suggested that my journal be in the direction of what did I do for WS today. What am I doing to show her that I care. This does not have to be contact but can be reading a couple of chapters in a book. So I am trying to keep in this direction by working on these things.

Here is the revised copy let me know what you think.

WW,

How are you feeling today? Good I hope. I have been thinking about our talk the other night and wanted to share some more of my feelings with you. It was good to finally sit down and discuss some of the issues that we face.

One of the things that I have recently learned about myself is my great need for honesty. It makes me feel connected to you when you share your dreams and goals with me. With honesty we can make thoughtful plans for today and tomorrow. With honesty we can prepare to catch each other before we fall. With honesty we can help each other through times like these. With honesty we can build a marriage full of happiness and understanding. Not having this need met is one of the things that has saddened me the most in our marriage. Honesty was one of the things that we originally bonded through.

Something that I have been thinking about is a conversation that we had where you told me about overspending on the store credit cards. I remember my reaction well. Angry outburst followed by lecture and demanding the cards. That night I punished you for giving me that which I desired the most, the truth. I want you to know that you can tell me anything that has happened in the past that you have not yet told me. Even if you can't tell me today I will always be here for you to talk to when you need me. While I can't promise not to get angry again, I will certainly work hard to appreciate your truthful statements even when they are hurtful. Of course it would be better if the truth could be filled with more good stuff. Then it would be easier for me not to get upset.

Today, I am focused on what is happening right now and what will happen in the future. I am committed to learning more about myself and why I make the decisions that I do. I do not want the same marriage we had before but a better one and I am willing to work for it.

Well it's getting late and I need to get some rest. Take care of yourself.

With my Love,

Me

Though I would mention as it made me feel good. I was talking to IL's yesterday and MIL told me that she would not even let WW tell her what OM's name was. She told her she did not ever want to know it or him. How ya like them apples. MIL also said that FIL told WW that she could not trust anything that OM said about his past. It has to be getting more obvious to WW all the time that the trade here is not only for me but the whole family.

As for Plan B. Well I'm not there yet. I can be very stubborn when it comes to something I feel is right. Just part of who I am.

Thanks so much Orchid.

C.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by shmaley:
 ...That night I punished you for giving me that which I desired the most, the truth. I want you to know that you can tell me anything that has happened in the past that you have not yet told me. Even if you can't tell me today I will always be here for you to talk to when you need me. ....<hr /></blockquote>Wow Shmaley, as usual (see now I expect you t/b this good in all your letters - LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ), as usual, you did quite well. Except.... for the above piece. JMHO but I think you shouldn't at this time state you will 'always be here' for her to talk with you. Why? Because that statement c/b used against you. I know it doesn't make sense but then again none of this does, eh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Gotta run and go clean my new house. We are moving in this weekend. I am tired already - LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Keep up the good work and hope you feel better soon. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

take care,
L.

Wow new house that must be exciting!!! The first cleaning is always the best. All downhill from there...lol. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

As usual your insight is invaluable. I just took out the always and voila! I'm feeling a lot better today and have a much better attitude. Thanks for caring.

C.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />shmaley: Wow new house that must be exciting!!! The first cleaning is always the best. All downhill from there...lol. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Orchid: Not exciting, tiring. I hate moving. Did it too many times as a child and hated it. Now that I had to do most of it, I recall why. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Just griping. Otherwise, it's ok. My parents are around and now I have to get used to that. LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />shmaley: As usual your insight is invaluable. I just took out the always and voila! I'm feeling a lot better today and have a much better attitude. Thanks for caring. <hr /></blockquote>Orchid: Glad to hear you are feeling better. Your attitude is commendable. Now don't panic or fret if you feel like having a bad attitude or 2 someday ok? That's what venting here is good for. You have done quite well and I am proud of your progress. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

take care,
L.

WW called today and wanted to use the computer at the house to write a paper that she is late on. I am at work and I told her that was fine and if she needed any help with computer problems to let me know. So far she has called me once for help. I anticipate another call when she need to make it into an attachment and e-mail it. Is this considered satisfying an EN? And if it is what is that EN? Sorry I can be dense sometimes but the answer is not jumping out at me. At very least I know this is good Plan A etiquette. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

One good thing about it is that I am putting WW before my job by doing this. In the past I have always discouraged WW from calling me at work. In my first letter to her I specifically apologized for this one. Need you guys help on this one.

C.

Well, I don't know what to make of that one. I helped her with her paper and everything went fine. At one point it came up that she didn't know if I would want her to keep coming over. I replied that it was fine she was coming over to work on her papers. Then I pushed a little and asked why would you think that I wouldn't want you to come over? She said I don't know (typical conflict avoidance). So I asked again. She said because this house is part mine too?? (silly answer) I said, no. Then I asked why do you think I would want you to come over? She looked confused and said what do you mean? I just repeated the question. She said, well this isn't easy. Still being upbeat just a little more serious I said, No..no it isn't easy at all. Then I said, because I have a lot of faith in you and the person you are... a lot of faith and I know you'll do the right thing. And then just let it fade out into school paper conversation.

Arrgh.. I feel like I blew it. I think I should have babbled but she wasn't babbling or was she? Maybe something like "hmmm maybe" and then just let it die that way. I started it. Did I blow it. I hope none of this was enabling the A!!?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

C.

Ok, went to the symphony tonight to watch WW play with the orchestra. Found out about the performance from my roommate who is also in the orchestra. I really need to get a schedule. So I got WW a single Red rose and a card. After I got to the show I remembered some advice Bob Pure got once about a card and decided to only give her the rose. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

During the concert I just happend to get the seat next to her instructor's H and made sure that we hit it off. We actually had a lot to talk about. This is probably a good alliance to build. WW has always been greatly influenced by her instructors.

The show went well and I watied for her outside the backstage area. When she showed up I gave her the rose and she gave me that new look she always gives me now when I do something nice for her. Kind of smiling and looks at me funny like " why are you being nice?" I always just smile with my heart.

We stood around and had a glass of champagne. So I asked her what was going on tonight and she told me about a band that she was going to see at the University for a Demo rally. I asked if she cared if I came along. Automatically she went into conflict avoidance mode. "Yeah that would be ok." She was more convincing than usual but I could still see through it. I am really begining to be able to read this stuff. So we stood around looking for a friend that usually stays in our spare bedroom when he comes into town for orchestra. She had him staying on the couch at her new place. I told her that he was welcome to stay at the house in a bed if he liked. So we went outside for her to call him since we couldn't locate him.

I started to push a little harder about if she wanted me to go with to see the band. Told her I only wanted to go if she wanted me to go. I tried to seem as sincere as I could. I said it's ok if you don't want me to come. All the while she kept saying everything but an enthusiastic "Yes". As she started to make her call I could tell she was starting to tear up. Waited for her to finish her call and started to walk her to her car. I could tell she was really fighting back the tears. So I started up a conversation about how great the soloist in the concert was tonight. I talked a lot not starting at her to let her regain her composure as we walked. Trying to make our time together turn out with a good feeling.

When we got to her car I helped her put her things up. Then I told her "I feel like you will have a better time if I don't go tonight." She nodded and was still crying a little. I gave her a big hug and told her to be safe and take care of herself.

So what do you guys think. That was POJA #3 is what I think!!! WHoo Hoo Baby. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

As I was leaving it struck me funny that I feel the best when I see WW cry. At first I didn't understand this and then as I thought a little harder it started to make sense. When she acts like nothing is wrong I feel like she is not hurting and therefore doesn't care. When she cries I am affirmed that there is still feeling there. Feelings for me. Anyways, that's it that's all. I'm not sorry this is long because it's my thread. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

C.

U felt good enough to step out for a concert? Great! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

As for POJA, R U sure that POJA 3 happened? I'm not sure it happened as a POJA, more like you tried to be sincere and gentle and she couldn't handle it.

Now I have a question, who is staying over her place? Another guy? Even tho' a friend, what makes you sure it isn't more than that? Sorry if that triggers U but it sent my MB sense tingling big time.

Also, why her tears? Hm...... not sure if she is ready for you t/b around yet. U maybe better doing some things briefly and then backing up big time.

Let her wonder about your actions since she won't be able to read them well in the fog.

Check it out with Jennifer C. ok?

take care,
L.

I felt like it was POJA because we both agreed that I would not go. I was happy to let her go have a good time and she was relieved too. Maybe it was just my giver looking out for her. At least I made a thoughtful gesture towards her. Her overactive giver was going to sacrifice once again and I stepped in and stopped it. But I guess if she is fogged bad enough it will make no difference. Depressing. So is it a wash or what?

I must attend concerts and it would be a LB if I just ran off afterwards right? The reason I say I must attend concerts is that me not attending before was a big LB for us. Admiration or some sort of support for her performances is a big EN for WW. This might be an EN that is not one of the 10 on Dr. Harleys chart. Maybe I would call it career support and admiration. I do see what you are saying with maybe she isn't ready to see me yet. There is probably some middle ground here I just don't know where it is.

Yes, the person staying over is another guy. Not much I can do about that I don't think. If I were to show jelousy now where would that get me? No, I do not trust her. However, I do not see what to do here. The guy and I are fairly good friends and I trust him more than WW right now but what to do?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Orchid said: U maybe better doing some things briefly and then backing up big time. <hr /></blockquote>Exactly what do you mean by this one? I have not called her once in 2 weeks she always calls me or comes over. I understand this is still contact but it makes it hard to back off. Are you maybe suggesting that I don't answer some of her calls and make sure that I am gone when she comes around? The concert is really the first time I have initiated contact in over 2 weeks. I felt like it was a good one to use up.

As for the crying, I was hoping that it was her snapping out of the fog for a moment. You have more experience so what do you think? This is so damn hard. Heart and Mind are still not totally in sync but I am getting there.

I appreciate you more than words can express Orchid. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

C.

C -

My daughters dad is a muscician and admiration for this is huge on his EN list. It was probably the biggest mistake I made when we were together - not taking an interest in his performances and not letting him know how talented I thought he was. I think for all performers this is very important, but I learned it too late - just thought he knew how good he was. But he needed to know that I thought so too.

So you are right in thinking this is big EN for her.

I can't speak for Orchid but what I read in her reply was yes, don't be quite so available for your WW. Time for her to start wondering about where you are and what is going on with you. Wait until Orchid comes back on to see how much of a back off you need to do, and when.

I like the Plan A, coupled with the 180. Ark has posted the 180 before, sure you can do a search if you are not familiar with it.

Weaver thanks for the reply! I found this list that believer posted and put in my situation.

Michelle Weiner Davis's divorce busting 180 degree list:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore.

I have done this on the level that Jennifer C. suggested. Letters to explain concepts in my words. regret for the saddness in our marriage. Confidence that our marriage can be better beyond our wildest dreams. No begging,pleading, or imploring though.

2. No frequent phone calls.

Almost no calls at all.

3. Do not point out good points in marriage.

I have done this in letters as directed.

4. Do not follow her around the house.

She doesn't live here now.

5. Do not encourage talk about the future.

Do not do this.

6. Do not ask for help from family members.

I do this and exercise great caution.

7. Do not ask for reassurances.

Do not do this

8. Do not buy gifts.

A rose last night is the first time I have done this.

9. Do not schedule dates together.

Have tried to do this but she says "No time". She is ver very busy and I can account for this. Not too busy to talk to OM for 45min every night though.

10. Do not spy on spouse.

Have never done this.

11. Do not say "I Love You".

Do not do this.

12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.

Have done this unless this is suppost to make her feel that I am moving on without her. She has noticed all my moving on changes but knows that I still want our M to work.

13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.

Have definitly done this!

14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.

Have done this.

15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.

Not doiing this. I try to initiate conversation now a little more than before. She always complained that I was too quiet before.

16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.

I am in this habit and I have stopped almost all together. Last night was the exception. Going out has always bee a LB between us and I was trying to be more outgoing.

17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.

I think I have conveyed this one clearly. That is if she can see through that fog.

18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing

I have done this on some level. Obviously, I do not avoid her but I do not initiale contact either.

19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show her someone she would want to be around.

I do this. Now wouldn't this be hard with little contact?

20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).

I have done done this. She knows that I will only talk with her about R and M if she is ready.

21. Never lose your cool.

Havent since the week of D-day.

22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic.

Might be a little guilty of this one. I turn on my happy voice when I talk to her.

23. Do not argue about how she feels (it only makes their feelings stronger).

Absolutly do not do this. Ever.

24. Be patient

I am quietly.

25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.

I do this but what is the point most of it is babble. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Seriously though I listen very closely and focus.

26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.

I do this.

27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).

I do this.

28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly.

I do this.

29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.

Like the tap tap tap of chinese water torture. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.

I do not.

31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.

I focus on what I have learned as per what Jennifer C. told me to do. However, I am very concious of allowing WW to have her say.

32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because she is hurting and scared.

WW just clams up when she is hurting and scared. I am still having trouble with the first part of this. Want to believe in something solid. This is good advice.

33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.

I will not.

34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.

I will not.

Let me know what you think of my 180 so far and if you think it would be worth implementing the changes here that I am not already doing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

C.

Well it sounds like you are doing a fine job at the 180.

You are in good hands with Jennifer and Orchid. There is nothing more I can think of to add.

Except I hope that you truly are doing as good as you sound. Some times people come on here and sound that they are keeping it all together but in the quiet moments they are in such unbelievable, gut-wrenching pain and we don't that get from their words.

You are so very young with such wisdom, and I hope that your pain is not too deep, and I hope that happiness (well inner peace is probably the most we can hope for at this point) is a sometime vistor to your life these days. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hang on C. you are not alone and I am glad you found this board to help you along this very hard journey you have been asked to walk.

Weaver

Thanks for the support Weaver. I have my triggers and bad days just like everyone else. Right when your doing the best the crappiest things come out of the woodwork. Like tonight for instance. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Tonight was my Grandma's birthday. Went over and as usual had to explain (lie) about where WW was. Said she was working. This really grates on me to lie to my family to protect someone who is kicking me while I'm down. Right before I left the house to go to this party I got some bad mail. Symphony contract for WW to sign to sub in OM's town. Well that was a bit of a dampener right before the birthday party dampener. Soooo I am feeling kinda like **** but probably a little worse. Wish I was joking.

Tried to call IL's they don't have time to talk to me (guests). This kind of made me angry but I am just being sensitive. My other big confidant is tied up but might call tonight. Actually, she sent me an e-mail that is the only reason that I am not really ranting right now.

Well, if I wasn't so damn tired from running around all night I would go out but I am beat. So I will probably just go to sleep. Going to sleep at 10:00 on a Sat. makes me feel like a L****. I know I am not but...well you understand.

C.

Shmaley,

Glad you went to your grandma's but why are you lying for her absence? Where is your exposure plan?

There have been a few things you and other BS' have been posting lately and when there is NO exposure, plan A goes from being a healthy plan to show your best to being a doormat. I may start a separate thread on that thought.

Of course, this is not just what you are doing but many a BS here have done. It is the desire to protect that is often used against the BS and family. You'd be surprised the lengths a WS will go to without even knowing it of protecting their A at the expense of all else. Protecting one's family is not an option for them, some even seem to enjoy abandoning and abusing their former loved ones in lieu of their A. Crazy but true. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

As for your feeling run down, well that's par for the course right now. Your body maybe showing signs that it no longer wants to participate in the stress that is being heaped upon it. Pay attention to yourself and get some R&R. Yep, you need it as much as water and good food. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

take care,
L.

My parents do not know about the A. And the rest of my side of the family knows nothing. Except for one aunt and uncle. I was doing this for protection and to help us rebuild more easily. WW has never been a big family event participant because she didn't seem to fit in, (her words).

Now, I can look at this two ways. I should expose because it would further take away from the fantasy. And since she did not go to a lot of family functions anyways we would not lose a lot. Example she would not be fighting daily embarrassment during recovery.

Or I can look at it like she never has any contact with them anyways and what would the use be of me telling them? Looking at it this way the only use of telling her is to give me family support. But I know what that support turns into, just pure anger. My father has to not talk when I am talking about it because he is so angry and he doesn't even know about the A.

I mean if I did tell them should I encourage people like my Grandma or Grandpa to feel free to call her. Would it do any good? Wouldn't that be a huge LB. I really must address this with Jennifer C. I guess. I would still like your opinion though Orchid. When you reply please address exposure of the A and exposure of our separation separately.

On her side only her parents and aunt (she is very close to) know. They know everything as I have told them. Her grandparents and other extended family know nothing at all.

C.

I have been thinking about the exposure bit a lot since your last post Orchid. And I have decided that writing out a letter to my family and WW's is probably the best way for me to get the initial message conveyed. Of course, I would be there while they read it to explain any details that they wanted to know. I also plan on letting WW review the letter and telling her who I intend on giving it to and even asking her to go with me. I am hoping that this will have a big effect on snapping her out of fantasy land. If Jennifer thinks it is a good idea I will probably be using something similar to this letter.

Open letter to our family

Because it is hard to say and you will have many questions we have decided to convey this information in this letter. WW and I have separated as of the 3rd of August. There have been many problems in our marriage that we have failed to address and we are now suffering some of the consequences of that failure.

No one has filed for divorce yet and we are not legally separated. WW has been staying with friends since the date above and has now moved into a house with a mutual friend that we are renting a room from. Most of her clothing and a few of our personal belongings have been transferred to this place of residence.

The reasons for this separation are complicated but I will highlight them here:

WW's continued participation in an emotional and physical extramarital affair with an acquaintance that she met during her June - July job in (local town). And the orchestra sub position that she has secured in the town of his residence (large city).

Past problems such as career considerations for WW that would move us out of town. In the past, I have not been supportive of this option so we have not been able to come to a decision.

Intimate problems that we have experienced from the beginning of our marriage, and up to now. We have failed to obtain professional treatment for these problems up to this point.

We have both participated in individual counseling and have gone to two marriage counseling sessions together. However, we have been unable to proceed with marriage counseling because of the active status of the affair. We have kept this information from the family for the reason of helping us to rebuild in the future. However, now we have realized that the situation we are in needs greater family attention and support. As well, increasing absences at family functions and in our daily lives require explanations that are honest and thoughtful of family feelings.

This letter has been written in my words. WW and I have reviewed and discussed it's content and who it will be given to.

BS and WW

This letter is 1st draft and open for review so feel free.

C.

Morning Shmaley,

Hope you are feeling better. I think due to your circumstances, it w/b better to run this by Jennifer C before you send the letter. Here are my thoughts:

1. The letter is from you. You give your side to whomever you decide. If your W wants to give her story, she can do it her own way. Why? Because IMHO, at this time she will not agree to a single letter which makes her out to be the bad person.

2. Determine who you feel should know. Make your list and write down your reasons for telling them and how they maybe able to help. Running it by the aunt and her parents may help. Remember this c/b hard since often blood is thicker than water and their focus could get lost in the fog.

As for your wife's distance from family functions, well that's telling. Let Jennifer know. Your wife will probably use this challenge as an excuse to let the A run farther. Learn from Jennifer how to spin this challenge to your advantage.

My H (Xws) was not close to his family (except for his 1 older sister) and not close to my family. He had lots of friends but only a few close ones. He tended to distance others from him with his grumpy attitude. Even my friends kept their distance. That was pre-A.

During the A he used that excuse to go farther into the A. The point he did not count on was the fact that our friends and family are real friends. The qluality kind.

When I did the exposure, I asked that all I gave the info (gave info on a need to know basis, not telling all to all), I preempted the exposure info by asking they each person to respect my decisions and that their support w/b greatly appreciate. I also let them know that I chose to tell them because I respect them. Then when I gained their confidence, I gave them some of the info. In each case (including telling my parents - my dad is not fond of H), each case I recieved their support. Each one.

In time, H is learning to meet his challenges and face these people. At first he grumbled I ruined his chances of speaking to anyone ever again. I told him that was his loss and these are our family and friends. He has since reneged and is working on forming lasting relationships with his real family and friends.

NOTE: The OW was too ashamed of the A to introduce him to her family....but both H and I have contact info on her family members. So it is an ace I still have up my sleeve should that evil PBR (psycho babble rabbit - OW's name here) show up again.

Plan carefully and be prepared for the worst.

take care,
L.

I am feeling much better thanks for caring.

As usual great advice. Having some hindsight on your side can sure make a difference. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I was planning on being present when I gave the letter to whomever I decided to give it to. I was also not planning on sending it via mail or email. But now I think I will just memorize the main points and hit those verbally (no letter). I am quite well versed in how I feel these days as I have been in learn about C. mode for the last month and a half.

Writing down who to expose to and the reasons why is an excellent idea. I can see this helping in the future with WW to explain why I felt I had to do the exposures. That way it will be obvious that I I was not acting out of anger but love. It will also help me to remember who knows what.

Should I talk to WW about who I have exposed to after the fact and while she is still WW and not W?

Or should I just let nature take it's course?

Just a couple of questions that I will probably ask Jennifer tonight. Better write them down so I will remember! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

C.

Shmaley,

I would not confer with a WS on an exposure letter. If it were an Xws it would still be questionable (most xws find a NC or exposure letter approval too much for them at the time).

It could also backfire of your intended purpose. Don't give the WS a chance to ruin your exposure. Don't even tell her who you told or what. When she asks, just say something like, 'yes I did tell.' Simply answer her question but do not give details or explain your actions. Remember WS' will use your explanations against the BS.

Here's an example:

WS: You what? You told who?

BS: For my personal healing, I chose to tell those who I have respect for and were willing to give our M a support.

WS: Who?

BS: As I said, those I respect. Who do you respect?

WS: What did you tell them?

BS: I asked for their support to the good side of our persons and our M. Isn't that what you would want your friends and family to do?

WS: No.

BS: Ohhh... ok. (end of convo)

WS: Whhhyyyy..... (stutter) How could you do this to me?

BS: Well it wasn't so much for you as for me. I needed to be reminded of the good side of our M. This is hard for me and this is helping me heal. How are you helping me heal?

WS: I don't know.... I can't deal with this right now.

Bs: Ohhhh.... ok. (end of convo)

Let her walk away with the idea that you need help and for her to see that you will get the help you need whatever way you need.

She will have a more difficult time if you present it as a help by you and for you. If she turns against this and lashes out at you, this is the time to withdraw and not have anything to do with a WS in rage.

Hope this helps. Let us know what Jennifer says.

take care,
L.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by shmaley:
I have decided that writing out a letter to my family and WW's is probably the best way for me to get the initial message conveyed.

Of course, I would be there while they read it to explain any details that they wanted to know.

I also plan on letting WW review the letter and telling her who I intend on giving it to and even asking her to go with me.<hr /></blockquote>A few thoughts on these three points:

A letter to conduct exposure to family members is a good idea.

Being there while they read is overly drammatic. Why all the drama? Let them read it and discuss it amongst themselves. Don't worry, they'll come to both you and her with questions.

DO NOT LET WW REVIEW THE LETTER!!!!!! Don't tell her ANYTHING about it!!! Do you think you're dealing with a rational, honorable person? You think she'll go with you to deliver it??? If you think this, just ask her to end the marriage threatening affair and no letter will be needed!

Here's my recommended letter, adapted from your draft:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Because it is hard to say and you will have many questions I have decided to inform you of this sad information in this letter. My marriage is in crisis. WW and I have separated as of the 3rd of August. There have been many problems in our marriage that we have failed to address and we are now suffering some of the consequences of that failure.

I have not filed for divorce and don't intend to. To the contrary, I want desperately to save my marriage. WW has abandoned our home against my wishes and has been staying with friends since the date above and has recently moved into a house with a mutual friend that we are renting a room from.

The reasons for this separation are stark but I will highlight them here:

WW's has willingly and deliberately conducted an extramarital affair behind all of our backs with an acquaintance that she met during her June - July job in (local town). She continues to promote this affair with her involvement in the orchestra sub position that she has secured in the town of his residence (large city).

In the past I failed to meet the emotional needs of WW, but I now recognize my failings and I have taken steps to eliminate these contributions to the poor marital state that allowed an affair to be attractive to her. But conducting an affair is entirely of her choosing.

We have both participated in individual counseling and have gone to two marriage counseling sessions together. However, we have been unable to proceed with marriage counseling because of the active status of the affair. Simply stated, we are at a stalemate for improving our marriage due to her distraction of the affair.

Prior to this, I have kept this information from the family for the reason of helping us to rebuild in the future. But now, I have realize that the situation we are in needs greater family attention and support.

Please understand that I am telling you this out of love for my family with the hopes that reconciliation can begin. The most effective antidote for affairs is to reveal their secrecy to the light of day, thereby removing their fantasy underpinnings. This is my goal.

If you choose to ask WW about this information, be prepared for denials and contradictions to what I have said here. I am engaging in professional counseling with experts on infidelity to guide me and I'd be glad to share with you any information that can shed light on this symptom of marital disease.

Please wish me well in our crisis.<hr /></blockquote>WAT

[ September 20, 2004, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: worthatry ]

WOW!

Great revision. Thank you so much. All your points are well taken. I will post back after my IC session.

Thanks WAT.

C.

Please tell us Jen's reactions. It will be informative for us all.

WAT

Jennifer said exposure now to anymore of WW's family would not be a good idea. Since the most influential people already know (parents and Aunt and Uncle) no other exposures are necessary until Plan B goes into effect. And as for exposure to OM's parents she still advises against it until Plan B goes into effect. She says WW will most undoubtedly be furious and will LB me and maybe get me to LB her. Not very Plan A.

On exposure to my family she said to go ahead but tell them in person and only use a letter for my own personal reference. Make them promise not to contact WW. That one surprised me but I see the logic behind it. One thing that she said about letter's is that they should always be something that you would be ok with WS reading in a year or two. And do not make statements that are one sided, just stick to the facts. She is cautious because paper can come back to haunt you after you are in recovery.

She praised me for my letters and said that I should send around one a week. Keep them short and sweet and include the concepts put into my words. So I guess it's time to send off the last one I wrote.

Oh, and she spoke very highly of you all and your dedication to this board! She was amazed at all the wonderful people willing to help others through their crisis.

C.

Well, I was doing some online bankng this afternoon and saw that WW was overdrawn on four checks. Cost us $70.00. I am not angry but this is typical. Was just thinking that we need to talk about some bills that she needs to allocate money for. I'll give her a call and set up a meeting so that we can talk about it.

Is there any way that I can spin this situation to my advantage? And where would a safe place for negotiations be just at home? I will practice all of my learned concepts and be sure not to LB.

I feel like she should still be allocating funds to the mortgage, existing credit card bills, and half of our auto insurance. What do you guys think? Just want to know that I am being fair. I will make sure our conversation is negotiation and not the way it used to be. I've always been very dominating with finances and it is a big LB for her. So this can turn into a great opportunity and that is why I need the guidance. I am a very black and white person and it is hard for me to accept another point of view especially with money. No matter what I will not be drawn into an argument. If it comes down to it I will just respectfully disagree.

Hopefully, we can POJA on some of this stuff. Oh and Jennifer confirmed for sure last night your right Orchid. POJA isn't short for POJAMA's. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> I stand corrected.

C.

Shmaley,

Glad you heard from Jennifer. She is guiding you well. She liked your other letter also? That's great. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You are doing well. Just know the ups and downs will continue on this roller coaster ride. Keep your seat belt on tight and you will survive.

Keep up the good work and vent here as needed.

take care,
L.

Talked to my Mother about the EA/PA last night. I picked her first because she is very good at forgiving. We decided on what to tell the rest of the family including my Father. At this point I might tell one other person on my Mothers side about the EA/PA. All others are going to get limited information. This includes my Father. I am close enough to him that I know he would NEVER forgive her for this. I feel that I am protecting both him and WW from years of certain resentment.

Tonight, I am going to write out my third letter to WW and give her a call to set up a meeting for finance talks. I will try to get her to meet over at her place because I would rather her not even get her hands on that symphony contract. I will not powerstruggle it but I will not deliver it to her either.

Ran a mile and a half this morning! That is the longest I have ever ran. With my build I should be running marathons but 1-1/2 miles is a start right. Real hilly terrain to, I live in a mountain town. *pats self on back* <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

How is the new house Orchid?! Is everything in it's place and dusted? Or is it still half in boxes like I would have it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

C.

Hi Shmaley,

Glad you spoke to your mom. Moms are great!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Respect your dad but don't protect a WS. You are in good hands with your mom and Jennifer. Realize that your mom has to live with withholding info from your dad. If this is counter to their relationship, this could be hard on her. Do periodic checks. You may find that in time your dad may realize where his priorities really lie. That is why I preferenced my statements by asking all to respect my decisions before I gave them the limited exposure info.

As for our house, well the boxes still reign supreme. LOL!!! Also the weeds on the side of the house (zero lot type of house) and the small hill in the back yard. I have already done my shopping and found out what I need to buy. Just have to find someone to help pull out all the bad stuff.

I already have a plan but the manpower is lacking. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> My little one has been putting in time helping me unpack while adjusting to a new school and schedule.

Talked with another MB yesterday, he may stop by and post a bit. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Well gotta scoot. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Keep posting.

take care,
L.

Schmaly -

I can't offer anything more than Orchid does for you, she knows so much more than me, but wanted to chime in here and say that you are still sounding great.

You live in a mountain town, I'm jealous!...
and running, double jealous!!

Weaver

Edited to correct spelling of your name, man I have a hard time with that name - what does it mean anyway?

[ September 22, 2004, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: weaver ]

I spoke with my mother for around 3-1/2 hours. Prefaced with all you suggested Orchid. She suggested that we not tell my Dad because of his nature. However, the decision was mine. I feel the same as she does and was already leaning that direction.

Boxes will be boxes and if you leave them there long enough they might unpack themselves. At least that was always my theory. Alas, no one would ever let me prove it. Said I was procrastinating.

Weaver,

Shmaley is my nick name from HS. It rhymes with my last name and people used to cal me **ley Shmaley. Then they just called me Shmaley. Needless to say it stuck. Few of those friends are still around but I still hear it from time to time (we were such a wierd bunch of kids). It's so weird I never have trouble using it with a login. Maybe I'll use it for my first born. It would work for a boy or a girl.... LOL

C.

Well, I don't know what to make of this one yet but it doesn't sound good. Called WW to set up a time to meet and we decided to meet at a local coffee shop. When she was debating what time to meet she said that she had to take a friend home. I happen to know that this friend is a WW as of 3 weeks ago. Arrrrggggghhhhhh....

I wonder if I could pay some bad influences to come down here and hang out with my WW. I mean there might just be a couple left in the state that haven't dropped by. I have no idea what the situation is with WW2 only that they have been together for around 5 years and married for just 6mo.. Don't know any other details. It could be good it could be really really bad. I am leaning toward the latter. They will probably support each other and make things worse. Ughh. I can just hear them "I just don't have time to be a W right now."

I need to calm down because I have to go to meet her in about 30 min. Always feel real uptight right before I see her and then somethig takes over and the calm hits. I know I will do fine just got the jitters.

Wrote out the last letter and I'll give that to her tonight. I'll start with small talk and make sure that she is ready to talk about finances. Big Big LB so I must be gentle. To make it worse She has those bounced checks that I am sure she doesn't know about. When she gets upset I will make sure to be thoughtful and considerate. However, I am going to need some sort of direction on what we are doing.

I'll post back when I get home. Wish me luck.

C.

Well, I asked WW about her friend and she is also having an A. Pathetic isn't it. Sad sad state of affairs in this world sometimes.

The meeting went pretty good over all. The only bad taste I have in my mouth is that I had to LB her toward the end. She asked me if she could put plane tickets on the credit card to go and work at the orchestra in OM's town. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> OMG right. Yeah sure why don't ya just take my check and the card and buy OM a new car and some GQ looking clothes to boot. I met her with a firm "No, I will not support that relationship in any way." She said "this is for my career" and I said, "That's fine I would love to go with you in support of your career, I'll even take the time off work." No... No... No... *with large eyes* Called her bluff on that one. I was ready. Just hated that it had to be one of the last things that we talked about. She pretty much wanted to leave after that one.

During the earlier hours she caught me trying to babble back. I got caught in a loop of "I agree" LOL I said "I agree" to a question. To which she said " that counselor told you to say that didn't she". **BUSTED** I said "I haven't been going to see the counselor" I haven't been seeing our local MC. She pressed on and I admitted that yes I have been talking to Jennifer C. She said "I don't think it's a bad thing". Then, she asked why I hadn't been asking her about going to counseling? I told her that she knew what I wanted and that there was no point in bugging her about it. Then, I asked her if that meant that she wanted to go to counseling? "Oh, I don't have time". I was thinking then what was the point of you asking me about it? Told her that I thought it would be good for her to IC and asked if she would talk to Jennifer C. on the phone. "I don't want to talk to a stranger on the phone" " It's different talking to someone in person but I don't want to talk to a stranger." I said "If you talked to her she wouldn't be a stranger". I was thinking of an old sesame street episode here...LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> She ended that she would think about it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Several times she asked me what I was smiling about. Truthfully, I love her and I can't hide it at all. I said, "It's my heart smiling at you". I know that sounds all sappy but if I didn't tell the truth then I was going to risk looking either wierd or insincere.

I showed her the bounced checks and she knew about them. She got all defensive and I handled it just fine. Told her I just wanted her to know so that she could take the charges out of her check book.

She asked if my parents still didn't know. I told her that I had talked to my mom last night. And that my Dad still didn't know. Probably told her too much. It was too late when I realized that I should be letting her wonder more. But she did ask a direct question and I am not going to lie. I told her that mom and I were protecting Dad . She came back with " and me " I said "yeah, and you too". I put her second on purpose that time to see if I could draw her out. Worked real nice. Told her that Grandma was asking what to buy her for her birthday. And I told her that I couldn't go on lying to them like I had been at the last two family functions. This upset her. She said something like "can't you just tell them that we are separated". I didn't quite understand what she meant so I just went with it and said " I have to tell them the truth." I guarantee that one will have her thinking.

The best part of the conversation was talking about the things I had put in the letter. Talked about honesty and why it is important in marriage. She brought up that it only hurts the other person so you shouldn't tell about bad things. Then I laid the concepts on her. I did it in a way that had her thinking and basically saying I guess your right. Used examples from our M that made a lot of sense.

At one point, she started to talk about something that she was stressed out about and stopped and said, "I can't talk to you about that." She said that she had wanted to call me but didn't feel like she could talk to me. I told her she could call me any time she needed to. She brought up the boy she cheated on me with when we were dating. Aparently, he is really freaking out and his GF is trying to kill herself and he is self mutulating, taking pills, and drinking. She has a soft spot for him and has been trying to help him through it. Talk about the blind leading the blind. I encouraged her to talk about him and what was up. She kept saying she couldn't talk to me about him and that she knew that it would make me mad. Well, I proved her wrong! Made sure she felt that I was genuinely concerned for his health. Told her to ask him to get some help in counseling. I also warned her that she should be careful and that if he didn't feel safe then she wasn't very safe around him. Of course, she wouldn't listen. "Oh, he would never hurt me". Sooo nieave. Can't do much about that.

She also talked a little about OM and how he made her happy. I said "you don't seem happy." She didn't argue. I can't remember how it got started but she was talking about OM and I said " You can decide to change this." She got defensive and said " People have to quit telling me to not see him I have to decide to do that." I said " I am not telling you to do that." Then, I asked her how her values compared to what she was doing. She said that she had thought about that and that she felt bad for making me hurt. I said, "I believe you it's a incredibly disrespectful and disgusting relationship and is very hurtful to me." WOW!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> can you believe I said that!!! Said it very calmly too. I saw some serious pain in her eyes when I said that. Not that I enjoyed watching that but it needed to be said and understood. Now it is.

Well, that's the main points. Sorry, they are all out of order. Let me know what you guys think.

C.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />shmaley: .....During the earlier hours she caught me trying to babble back. I got caught in a loop of "I agree" LOL I said "I agree" to a question. To which she said " that counselor told you to say that didn't she". **BUSTED** I said "I haven't been going to see the counselor" I haven't been seeing our local MC. She pressed on and I admitted that yes I have been talking to Jennifer C. She said "I don't think it's a bad thing". Then, she asked why I hadn't been asking her about going to counseling? I told her that she knew what I wanted and that there was no point in bugging her about it. Then, I asked her if that meant that she wanted to go to counseling? "Oh, I don't have time". I was thinking then what was the point of you asking me about it? Told her that I thought it would be good for her to IC and asked if she would talk to Jennifer C. on the phone. "I don't want to talk to a stranger on the phone" " It's different talking to someone in person but I don't want to talk to a stranger." I said "If you talked to her she wouldn't be a stranger". I was thinking of an old sesame street episode here...LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> She ended that she would think about it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Orchid: Well here's perfect example of how a WS works. Notice how she pretended to be interested in MC w/Jennifer when she could accuse you of not inviting her, then when you did said she didn't want to talk to strangers? Right. Mine did the same thing and my response was the same as yours: "If you talked to her she wouldn't be a stranger".

As for your letting her know who you told and other info, you may find that even though she may spew WS anger now, you are doing the exposure for your need not her's. Remember that as you are dodging those sprays of WS venom. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

BTW, we are working on a WSacide for that venom, right now we are using the fogbabble version. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

take care,
L.

[ September 23, 2004, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]

Here's letter no. 4. Let me know what you guys think.

WW,

I am having a great day today! Everything just seems to be in place. You know what I mean one of those days when everything goes right and you just feel really warm and happy. There is so much to be thankful for in our lives. I started feeling this way today and it made me think about you. The only sad part is that you are not here sharing it with me. I’ve so much to tell you I could probably talk for a week if you didn’t tell me to shut up first. Ha ha. Maybe you are having a good one too. Or maybe this letter will help you to feel what I am feeling now. I hope so.

It just dawned on me that I haven’t asked you how important honesty and dishonesty is to you. How does it make you feel when I have been dishonest with you? And how does it make you feel when I tell you exactly what I am thinking and how it makes me feel? I hope that you might write this down and let me know how you feel about your needs in this area.

You know the more I think about it the more it seems to me that dishonesty is what really causes the numbness you are experiencing. Whether it is dishonesty to me, your family, or yourself it is like a wedge. Dishonesty is one of the most destructive things a relationship can experience. When we are dishonest we destroy the love that we have for each other. Dishonesty makes the adjustments that are crucial to the creation of compatibility in marriage impossible. If we are dishonest, no matter how hard we try to work together we will fail simply because we will not understand each other.

The dogs are acting silly today. While I was running this morning I could see down inside the house and they were barking back and forth at each other. When I got to the end of my run **** was sitting on the couch howling and ***** was barking at him over and over. He howled until ***** saw me and ran to the door. I think they want to go with me when I run. Maybe I will let them take turns because I run twice around before I stop.

You asked me several times why I was smiling during our last conversation. If you want to know why I smile I’ll tell you. I smile because I know and feel true Faith in God, Honor, Integrity, Care, Trust, Respect, Loyalty, and Love. And nothing in this world can take those things away from me. So I smile a smile from my Heart.

Now, I’ve been working up a surprise for you so get ready! I’ll see you soon.

BS

C.

If I were you I might leave the two paragraphs on honesty out, save it for recovery. I really think the letter should be kept light and fun.
No need to try and educate her, or try and tell her how or why she is feeling what she is. It might rub her the wrong way, sort of manipulative.

Weaver

I am thinking about sending a letter that is all fun. A totally light hearted letter will be refreshing and show that BS doesn't always have to talk about relationship.

What I am trying to accomplish with the paragraphs on honesty and dishonesty are to as Jennifer C. said "plant little seeds." She told me to become the expert and put the concepts into my own words in these letters. Always keeping them short and sweet. She said WW will not make any changes based on what she reads but that these concepts and feelings that I convey will stay with her and continue to grow.

I am a lot better at writing about serious stuff than light hearted stuff. I am a deeply introspective person to a fault. Thanks for helping me keep it in prospective Weaver. I need to not let my want to go too deep take over. Maybe I will make another totally light hearted letter and send it before this one. That was actually my original plan.

C.

Shmaley,

The purpose of this letter is.....? I think you lost it in the beginning. You want to write a 'nice' letter after what she just did to you?

Hold back. If you must write a letter keep it simple. Light is ok but not to cheery and not too teachy. Can guarantee you that a WS will see all sorts of red flags with your letter. Just your cheeriness will push her into a WS mood. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Tone it down a bit or if you can hold off a bit do so. She needs to realize that you know she manipulated you and as a result, you have cut off some contact. Let her stew in her own gravy for a while.

But if you must, write about the dogs, tell her you are starting to come out of the weather (don't explain) and plan to feel better soon. Toss in a few things like the dogs seem happier, plants growing nicely, cooking is getting better..... you know say a few positive and let her 'wonder' how good you are doing.

The EN stuff, needs to take the back seat for a while. She probably isn't ready for that yet. You will get a chance to use it.

Is all this editing making you dizzy? It did for me to. Not your letters but when I did mine. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

take care,
L.

Orchid said: <blockquote>quote:<hr /> The purpose of this letter is.....? I think you lost it in the beginning. You want to write a 'nice' letter after what she just did to you? <hr /></blockquote>Jennifer C. said that I should continue with letters like the last one I wrote. She has not read this one though. She said around 1 a week would be good. Are you saying that I should spite WW for what she has done to me? Or are you just suggesting that I withdraw to make her become mentally engaged? I am confused. Where is this part of MB principals in Plan A?

Orchid said: <blockquote>quote:<hr />Hold back. If you must write a letter keep it simple. Light is ok but not to cheery and not too teachy. Can guarantee you that a WS will see all sorts of red flags with your letter. Just your cheeriness will push her into a WS mood. <hr /></blockquote>I see that I was being teachy point taken. But what is wrong with being cheery? I though I was suppose to project that I was doing well even better without her. Jennifer C. said that I want to seem that I am persuing WW to some extent. Can you be more specific with what the red flags are and how I should hold back. Are you talking 180 stuff?

Orchid said: <blockquote>quote:<hr /> Tone it down a bit or if you can hold off a bit do so. She needs to realize that you know she manipulated you and as a result, you have cut off some contact. Let her stew in her own gravy for a while. <hr /></blockquote> I have made some strong comments to her that I documented from our last conversation. Basically, wouldn't allow her to manipulate me (with the credit card to go see OM thing). Where are you talking about WW manipulating me? As far as contact she seems to be just starting to warm up to me. She called on her way back from a lesson tonight just to tell me something that an old friend said that she thought I would enjoy. We talked for about 15min that is the most I have had her talk to me on the phone in 2 months. Do you still think that I should back off. I understand your concern for toneing it down but why cut down contact especially when she is initiating?

Orchid said: <blockquote>quote:<hr /> But if you must, write about the dogs, tell her you are starting to come out of the weather (don't explain) and plan to feel better soon. Toss in a few things like the dogs seem happier, plants growing nicely, cooking is getting better..... you know say a few positive and let her 'wonder' how good you are doing. <hr /></blockquote>She knows I am not sick anymore because I just saw her the night before last so I can't make her wonder this way. LOL all plants are dead...I murdered our Mango tree with thirst too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I do get your point though.

Orchid said: <blockquote>quote:<hr /> The EN stuff, needs to take the back seat for a while. She probably isn't ready for that yet. You will get a chance to use it. <hr /></blockquote> You and Weaver are probably right that I am coming on too strong with the EN's. I was just going for what Jennifer C. said about planting seeds to grow later. But I am probably trying to grow a chiapet rather than a modest flower garden.I must need to back off. But if I don't write about something of M value it just feels awkward. I need to quit hand delivering these letters and start sending them through the mail. More romantic that way and it won't feel weird giving her a letter about casual stuff when I just got done talking to her.

I still feel conflicted here though. Really felt like I was suppose to be sneeking in concepts. Uuuuugghhhh. This makes my brain hurt.

WW came by earlier while I was gone to pick up mail. She called me to see if it was ok if she went inside to change clothes. I told her that was fine. When I got home I noticed that she had opened the symphony contract package that was on the counter but she left it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> What the..... What do you make of this? My roommate that works with her said that she was talking today about not being able to afford plane tickets and how she could get them. Push Pull Push Pull.

I will not let it upset me too much though. Sorry that I am asking a million questions and that this post is soooo long. I'm just feeling confused and a little off track I guess. Need some guidance.

C.

Hellooo.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'm reading "Love must be tough" and I am starting to understand your direction a little better Orchid. I hope you didn't get buried in a box avalanche. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

C.

Well, WW just came by and I pulled back. It really hurt a lot to do that. Here's all that happened.

She called said she was outside, I was down stairs, and wanted me to let her in so she could get some "things". I was not cheery when I answered the phone or when I answered the door. Acted very ho hum. She went to the kitchen and said I've got to get this contract for "orchestra" the one OM lives by. I was walking into the other room. Then I turned around and said well I'm going downstairs. She said with a slightly sad slightly suprised look "ok, it's good to see you". I said kind of like I didn't care too much "yeah, it's good to see you too." Then I went downstairs. And now I'm posting. I am pretty sure that she is gone now.

I feel like ****. I didn't like doing that it made me feel sorry for her. Why the heck would I feel sorry for HER. Grrrrrrr <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> She is showing me ZERO respect and that is a load of crap. Comes by to pick up that contract and wants to be cordial. I wanted to be happy and nice and it killed me to be uncaring and cold. Help is this the right thing to do?? I NEED SOME ADVICE!!! Felt like sobing a moment ago and now I feel like chopping down an oak with a Louisville.

Posting from purgatory...my own little corner of it anyways.

C.

Just got an email from one of WW's friends. One of the good ones. She talked to WW today. She encouraged her to do the right thing and work on our marriage. She also told her that the OM was getting in the way of this. To which WW told her that she had alread made up her mind before OM came in the picture. The friend said she thought that this was true. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I emailed the friend back and said among other (nice) things:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> If she was going to leave me before OM then why didn't she? Likewise why didn't she
talk to me about it? Because it is a fabrication. I do not doubt that she was unhappy I was too. However, to stretch it to saying that an affair has nothing to do with her leaving even though it happened in the same month is a joke. I have
expressed my willingness to work on the relationship and marriage (She has moved out
and continues her adulterous affair). I have expressed my willingness to go to counseling, she says "I don't have time to go". I have been bettering myself (she tells people it won't last and continues to cheat on me.) I have given her and I am still giving her lots of room. But it is insulting to my intelligence for her to say
that she was already going to do this and it has nothing to do with OM. If it has nothing to do with OM then promise NC (no contact) and lets begin reconciliation through counseling. She won't do it. (Friend's Name), please do not buy into that excuse it is only a rationalization. She cannot even admit reality to herself at this point. <hr /></blockquote>The bad part is that the friend told her that I asked her to call her, that I was sad and that I still loved her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I did ask her to call her but it was over a month ago. I was in a totally different state of mind at that point. How bad do you think this is? How much damage? This makes this exposure where I can't say I did it for myself. Is this a big deal or am I overreacting?

One interesting piece of information that the friend told me was "She did say that she wasn't anywhere close to legally ending your relationship and didn't feel like she was in an emotionally stable place to make any final decisions." The last part is a cop out and the first part tells me that she has officially started eating cake.

Am I accurate here or what?

C.

Hey Shmaley,

Sorry I took so long to reply. Been kinda busy. Advertised to give away some of my moving boxes and so far 3 guys came by to take it away.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

So I am still in the midst of unpacking, insurance thingy, job hunting, paying bills with monopoly $$ (just kidding), etc.

As for the manipulation piece, I was referring to her suggestion for counseling then her pulling it back with the 'not talking to strangers' excuse.

Do you still want your questions that you made before the post where you stated you started reading Dr Dobson's book?

Remember sooner or later, you will get angry at her actions. Others may refer back to older conversations because to them it is still new. Your timeframe, her time warp and the timeframe of the rest of humanity w/b all 3 running at different speeds.

Since you still appear t/b in plan A, then some contact c/b doable but it will take it's toll on you. That is why plan B is available.

I know pulling back is hard but you will find where her current desires are if she tries to manipulate you into throwing some A cash her way.

Stand your ground. She maybe embarressed if she can't make the performance all because you choose not to fund her A. Imagine what type of story she has to conjure up for that one!??!?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Now you can plant seeds about that A (exposure) to her fellow musicians so that when she tries to blame you, they will already have the truth vs the fog set before them.

JMHO,
L.

I just feel lost for direction. And yes, I am starting to get angry at her actions. You don't need to asnwer all the questions that I asked a few posts back I think I understand more now. Please analyze my last post and answer the couple here:

How much should I pull back? Is acting stand offish once enough or is more than that needed?

Should I continue to set up meetings ONLY when I need to talk official business?

You see I am sort of lost for direction right now. I am not quite grasping the direction to proceed. When I get it it will feel good and I will be confident as before. But right now I am struggling to deal with how to treat her.Example:

When she tries to enable the A I should:

When she is nice to me I should:

When she is nice then talks about the A I should:

When she calls me I should act: happy / indifferent / not answer.

Just starting to feel confused and overwhelmed with everything. I need to get away to somewhere that I can forget about this for a while.

Sorry, I know that is a bunch of stuff. I just feel like I need to get over this hump. LOL I've been feeling like that for a month.

C.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />shmaley: I just feel lost for direction. And yes, I am starting to get angry at her actions. You don't need to asnwer all the questions that I asked a few posts back I think I understand more now. Please analyze my last post and answer the couple here:

"How much should I pull back? Is acting stand offish once enough or is more than that needed?" <hr /></blockquote>Orchid: I understand the lost feeling. Part of what a BS goes through. We call it the roller coaster. Each time you communicate with her you are apt to feel lost and dizzy, then angry and frustarted.

As to your question, how much you should pull back it up to your ability to handle it without too much LBing. Don't want you t/b a doormat but if you carry too much of that burden, that is what you will allow yourself to become. So you decide.

Acting standoffish s/b used when you need to protect yourself. I don't recommend it too much in plan A but the more you feel like you need t/d this, the sooner you need to go to plan B.

Temper it with your abilities. It is critical you use plan A to learn how to do your best and when you have done that and the WS is still a WS, then you need to go to plan B.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />shmaley: Should I continue to set up meetings ONLY when I need to talk official business<hr /></blockquote>Orchid: Yes. If you are in plan A, it is better to keep all contact to a minimum. She needs to miss you. She can't if you keep popping up with smiley faces every day.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />shmaley: You see I am sort of lost for direction right now. I am not quite grasping the direction to proceed. When I get it it will feel good and I will be confident as before. But right now I am struggling to deal with how to treat her.Example:

When she tries to enable the A I should:<hr /></blockquote>Orchid: I understand you are at a loss. Realize this is par for the course. Other BS H's are going through the same thing. Some with extra responsibilities. I believe you have the opportunity to grow into a much more rounded out character making you highly attractive, while the OM is still struggling to figure out if his zipper s/b up or down. YUCK!!!

As for when she tries to get you to enable the A, what have you found out it is better for you to do? I have my opinions and you know what they are.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />shmaley: When she is nice to me I should:<hr /></blockquote>Orchid: When she is cordial and nice, you give her the same. No more and no less. See the WS requires a lot from her givers. You give the same amount she dishes out and it will frustrate the WS to no end. It will also relieve you from the responsiblity of being the giver. Eventually she will not require you to be the giver but be more appreciative of your generousity.

With my child, I tell him that when he does wrong, I can and do take things away. Not afraid to take away. When he is good, I am willing and have been quite generous. My child realizes good actions get rewards but those rewards require he be appreciative. Not demanding. The WS needs to learn the same or they will return home demanding you continue giving and giving, feeding their selfish traits.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />shmaley: When she is nice then talks about the A I should:<hr /></blockquote>Orchid: Stop and walk away from the convo. You talk about the A, when you are ready..... she has the OM to talk about it when she is ready. Don't meet her need for this unless it is to help you. This is very very hard for most BS to do.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />shmaley: When she calls me I should act: happy / indifferent / not answer.<hr /></blockquote>Orchid: Be yourself.....meet her cordial responses with respect. If she gets belligerent, excuse yourself politely and let her know that her tone is not acceptable. The good thing about the phone is that one party can always end the call...... you may not see the other end but the WS c/b talking to herself and look real funny to the rest of the world. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />shmaley: Just starting to feel confused and overwhelmed with everything. I need to get away to somewhere that I can forget about this for a while.

Sorry, I know that is a bunch of stuff. I just feel like I need to get over this hump. LOL I've been feeling like that for a month.
<hr /></blockquote>Orchid: Confusion is part of the territory. The BS has feelings too you know. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You will get the hang of this....it takes time and learning how to deal with your feelings while there is no one to give you the support you want to give your W but right now can't because she is a WS is hard on a BS. Very hard. That's why you need to keep reading, learning, work with Jennifer and keep posting here.

Got any BS' in your area?

aloha,
L.

Thanks for the answers Orchid. I am starting to feel more in tune with the situation now.

I got really angry yesterday thinking about how I was being treated. It started with talking to one WW's and I mutual friends. The friend actually buys into the line that WW was going to leave me before the A. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Well I emailed her back and let her know what I thought of that. I didn't get a very positive response. Somehow the friend thinks that I am wanting her to "tattle" on her and WW's conversations. I mailed her back that "I have no desire to hear the private conversations between you and WW". I will call her to straighten it out on Thursday. Anyways this put me into a real tailspin yesterday that made me very angry. I went and worked out for an hour. I ran 4 miles yesterday and was still having a angry day.

Then the clouds cleared a little when one of my friends came over and we worked on some music together. That made me feel a lot better. Then at the end of the night my roommate told me some news that made me feel really good. Apparently she spoke with WW even after she had spoke with the friend I mentioned earlier and she said that she heard some positive things. She couldn't tell me all but she said the pulling back that I did the night before definitely had an effect on WW. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> She said that it was positive for our R but couldn't tell me anymore. WW asked her to tell me "Hi". Kind of wierd but encouraging. Looks like you were right again Orchid.

The crappy thing is that I cannot and will not put any stock in this but it did make me feel better when I was feeling like ****. Anyways, just keeping everyone updated.

C.

Sorry to hear about the fog sucking in some of your friends but it does happen. You are getting quite good at the seesaw effect. The next big ride is that creepy rollercoaster. Bigger and rougher than that rollercoaster loop Dee loop twister ride in Ohio!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

You are wise not to put too much stock even in what the roommate says but just file it away. WS' do speak in twisted tongues. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Glad the music helped calm your soul a bit. See you can get over these emotional up and downs.

Quite proud of you, Shmaley..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Gotta go and now report to the HI Unemployment office and 'register that I am looking for work'. Imagine that!?!?!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Boy I am sure earning this unemployment check. Putting in more than 4 hours a day not to mention the nightmares at night about this job hunting stuff....then there's those obnoxious boxes. LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Just kidding. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

take care,
L.

Just got done baking my first batch of sticky pecan cinnamon rolls. Never baked anything before. Made these from scratch with my FIL's recipie. Now all I need is one of those Kiss the Cook aprons. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I was thinking about taking some to WW and leaving them on the door step early in the morning. They're her favorite.... She's been sick today I heard.

Nah... She doesn't deserve them yet. And I am sure that RM (my representative) will mention that I made them. I'll just save them for the W when she gets home. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

C.

U R a baker too??!?!?!?! Wow, u r certainly changing yourself into one irristable kinda guy! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

My grandfather was a baker by trade..... sorry to say that his granddaughter did not inherit all his talents. I recognize good cooking though! LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Think I was meant t/b a food critic? LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

BTW, don't offer your best to the WS. Save that for your W. Just fan those aromas out her way..... she'll find out sooner than you think.

Bet all the OM can do is buy the stuff from 7-11 (mini market chain on the west coast). Ha! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

L.

I was reading some other posts and began to wonder what exactly would I do if WW called today and said that she wanted to come home. NC letter is obviously a must but probably not the first thing that I want to say to her. That would put too much emphasis on the A I think. I'm not really searching for a perfect order here as much as just what approach to take. Should I tell her to think about it for a week or month and make sure? Should I say let's book into MC with Jennifer C.? Lot's of different scenarios that could play out.

What I really need here is to know what my priorities are when this moment arises. I feel like I need a list of things that are deal breakers and another list that are things that we will work on through MC.

Deal Breakers

Committment to new M through MC and IC
NC with OM for life

Things to work on through counseling

Promise to go to MB weekend in IL's home town in Jan.

Giving up all privacy (cell phones, email, mail)

Changing Phone numbers and email addresses

Having all mail sent to home (some mail is going to WW's work)

Even with the deal breakers promised should I still tell WW to wait for some time to make sure?

Let me know what you think.

I sent a picture of my cinnamon rolls to my IL's last night. It makes me hungry just looking at them. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> If we could post pictures I would post it. I will probably eat one when I get home before I go to workout. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Good luck at the UE office. What do you do anyway?

C.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />shmaley: I was reading some other posts and began to wonder what exactly would I do if WW called today and said that she wanted to come home. NC letter is obviously a must but probably not the first thing that I want to say to her. That would put too much emphasis on the A I think. I'm not really searching for a perfect order here as much as just what approach to take. Should I tell her to think about it for a week or month and make sure? Should I say let's book into MC with Jennifer C.? Lot's of different scenarios that could play out.

What I really need here is to know what my priorities are when this moment arises. I feel like I need a list of things that are deal breakers and another list that are things that we will work on through MC.

Deal Breakers

Committment to new M through MC and IC
NC with OM for life<hr /></blockquote>Orchid: Good to plan but not good to overanalyze. Now that you have begun your list. Put it away for a while. You can review it again and update later. I would change the NC w/OM to NC with ALL OMs. Let her know your tolerance level goes down with recovery not up. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />shmaley: Things to work on through counseling

Promise to go to MB weekend in IL's home town in Jan.

Giving up all privacy (cell phones, email, mail)

Changing Phone numbers and email addresses

Having all mail sent to home (some mail is going to WW's work)

Even with the deal breakers promised should I still tell WW to wait for some time to make sure?<hr /></blockquote>Orchid: Again a good start but it is a lot to put on a WS all at once. In fact an Xws will have a hard time. So now plan the order of importance because you may have to put these requests out in series and not all at once.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />shmaley: Let me know what you think.<hr /></blockquote>Orchid: I think you are still doing good. The sessions with Jennifer are paying off. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />shmaley: I sent a picture of my cinnamon rolls to my IL's last night. It makes me hungry just looking at them. If we could post pictures I would post it. I will probably eat one when I get home before I go to workout. Good luck at the UE office. What do you do anyway?

C. <hr /></blockquote>Orchid: Ok, now here's where it gets 'sticky' <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I love cinnamon rolls - tastey homemade ones are irresistable!!! Did you leave out the calories? Not fair to send a pix. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> The drool is too real and the pix just doesn't have the same flavor - <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

As for what I do, my work used to be in payroll taxes. Working with employer and agency setups.
It was a specialized field even though 'everyone has to pay taxes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> ....... So I have to use my skills and experience when searching for a job in a different field. It is doable, just gotta smooze 'em. LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

L.

Well, I called WW earlier to see how she was doing since she was sick. While we were talking she brought up the baking stuff and the pulling back. She said "I heard you made some cinnamon rolls". I said "yeah, I did, it was a lot of fun." She acted suprised like it shouldn't be any fun but more stressful. She is always stressed, and borderline angry when she is cooking. I told her I enjoyed it, and I did. Toward the end of the conversation she said "were you ok the other day ?...you acted like you didn't want to talk to me...? To which I said "yeah, that's kinda how I felt." She said, "oh, ok." and that was it.

It is kind of interesting that she is starting to bring up this stuff. Acknowledging my baking on her own and even bring up a conflict situation. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Not the typical WW that I have seen in the last month. Not as much conflict avoidance. She is beginning to warm up a little I think. Not that she is feeling close to me but I am no longer the monster. She cannot make me into that any longer.The defenses are coming down.

I am growing tired of this game. Fighting feeling of anger and resentment more and more. However, I do not want to plan B yet because I feel like there is too much good work to do. I just need a breather. Not quite sure how to get one. Maybe a vacation? Any ideas??? I am probably monitoring her calls too much. I'm usually wanting to see if she has spoken with the family but it is starting to anger me how much that I see her talking to OM and right after she gets off the phone with me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I should probably stop this for now and see if I feel any better.

Dip and curve and loop de loop.

C.

Need some help now. I am getting very angry today. Just thinking about everything and growing very resentful. Thinking about doing terrible things to WW like:

Calling all her students and telling them or their parents what is going on.

Calling several of University Department faculty and exposing.

Calling several co-workers in orchestras she is in including one in OM's town.

Calling OM's parents and everyone else on the BG check that I have of him.

Jennifer C. Told me not to call OM's parents. She also said no one else except the people that already know (parents one other close member of her family) should be told. But I am very angry right now and my taker is telling me to do things.

My roommate is going to tell the co-workers that she has not told that WW works with. These co-workers asked before what was going on and she didn't tell them. She just made up an excuse. I told her that the next time let them know the Truth. It's not fair that I am the only one dealing with reality here!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

I have been trying to fight this off all day and I am about to explode.

C.

Shmaley,

Why the change? I know these downers hit at bad times (like when is a good time, eh?).....but you seem quite angry now.

Ok, now your roomy gonna do this exposure because?!?!?!?!...... Jennifer C says to hold it and you just stated in an earlier post that you need to plan A longer?

Sounds like you need to compose yourself a bit more. If you need to talk, let us know. If we can't find someone in your area, you can e-mail me: mborchid2@yahoo.com

I can't check it until tomorrow but I recommend you go get the Love must be tough book and read it again if needed.

You need to get your composure back. I understand the anger but now we need to get you to use this harsh energy wisely. ok?

take care,
L.

You've been giving and giving and giving to your best of abilities

Its only natural that your taker would want to come out and rant about the inequities and how it can deal with them.

Try to journal the taker and wait to strategize more clearly another day.

[ October 03, 2004, 06:24 PM: Message edited by: picklesaresour ]

Just went a little crazy. I have been having a bad day all day and a student of WW called asking when she was going to be home. Grrrrr I wanted to let her have it. But I didn't and then it turned into the last post you saw. I should call that my wolfman post. Trying to make jokes but nothing is funny right now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Before the student called I tried to call my best confidant IL and she did not answer. This was upsetting because I am having such a bad day. My other confidant the RM is gone out of town until tomorrow night. I tried reading but I couldn't focus. Then the student called asking that stupid question. After that I just started dwelling and obsessing like I used to in the first few weeks. Next thing I know Mr. Taker is making all sorts of demands and I'm saying yeah that sounds like a good idea. I knew it was irrational but I needed to let it out.

When I got done typing the post I was still angry and upset. So I posted it. I really needed to talk to someone and there wasn't anyone that I wanted to talk to avaliable. Then my IL called and we talked for about an hour and a half. That helped a lot. Then I read for another hour or so. I am much more calm now but still a little uptight.

Feeling torn about letting WW cruise through this. I guess I didn't mention that I didn't tell the student anything. Once again I protected WW's reputation. She does not deserve to be protected. And I wouldn't protect her if I thought I could let the info out without LBing. But if I tell people like that she will be furious and will have justification (in her mind) to be angry with me. Jennifer C. told me don't LB no matter what. I am trying my very best.

Thanks for the address, and quick response Orchid. Sorry I freaked out. I have been doing real good but that student just triggered me. I am sooo fed up with protecting WW. And I feel backed into a corner to do it. I am stubborn about wanting to stay in Plan A. It has been 2mo at this point I know I can do better than that.

Orchid Said: <blockquote>quote:<hr />Ok, now your roomy gonna do this exposure because?!?<hr /></blockquote>This exposure cannot be traced to me. These people can potentially yield a positive influence on WW. They are married and in her profession and she is a student under them. WW has always looked up to even idolized her instructors. RM has been asked what was going on by these people I just ok'd her to tell them the truth. So this will not cause a LB situation just more positive pressure on WW.

Picklesaresour thanks! Journaling is a good idea. I have one and use it for strategy now and then. It is easier to think things through when I type them out first.

Well, I am getting tired and will probably go to bed early. Very exhausted now. I'll talk to you guys tomorrow. Thnaks for being here for me.

C,

Feeling much better today. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

When I run every morning there is this giant hill half way around the course I run twice. Yesterday I was 3/4 the way up the hill on my second lap and wanted to give up. Feeling a little self pity too. Today I am to the flat on top and starting to coast downhill again.

Sorry I couldn't make it up the hill alone. I feel ashamed that I became so weak. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Today is a big day at work. I am a QA/QC manager and there is another QA/QC manager coming from one of our biggest customers to inspect. I know him but it is still very stressful. Kind of like an end of year payroll Audit right.?

There is still plenty of time for me to tell RM not to say anything. Given the situation what do you think Orchid. I just want to do the right thing here. Not anything rash or spontaneous. I feel like it could yield some results and it can't be traced to me. These instructors had told WW not to audition for "Big city" orchestra and she did anyway. Now if they know the truth that OM lives there they might try to help her. They are on their 2nd marriage and know what it is like to go through a D. What are your thoughts?

C.

Morning Shmaley,

Glad you are feeling better. Us MBers don't like to see a BS in pain. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Keep up with your running, it will do your body and mind good. Your heart will benefit also....now if I could just do as I say on this exercise stuff..... Oh yea, I have been lifting boxes and hauling them into the house.... so that may count for a little exercise. LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

As for the exposure if it is as you say, realize it may not have the expected effect on your W. It may help others know where she is at and in turn be around to help her later when the WS is accepable to their genuine help. Don't expect for the best. Set your expectations lower so any disappointment will not hurt tooo much.

IMHO, I would do as you outlined. Remember, that is just my opinion.

take care,
L.

It's 9am here on the 5th..... U haven't responded yet. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

No vent? No post? How R U doing? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

L.

It's been thirteen days since the last letter that I gave WW. I am thinking that it is time for another one. Do you still think that it is too soon to talk about concepts? Jennifer had encouraged me to do so and "plant seeds" with them (1 a week). But as much as you follow my story you have a better temperature of the situation.

Given that WW has been inquisitive about me and what I have been doing (baking, pulling back, noticing body changes)what do you think? I am very bias because I feel best when I am doing nice things for WW. Her B-day is on next Monday. I have got her a hard to find violin CD, a unique music book, and a DVD on great players of the 20th century. I think that is sufficient. Jennifer C. encouraged me to get something unique and personal. But nothing extravagant.

I am going back to the SexT today. 2nd visit. Then I'll be going to work out. Let me know what you think about the letter.

C.

Simulpost <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I am doing fine. Hope you see my post before tomorrow. Wow, your 5hrs back from me. Have a great day!

C.

[ October 05, 2004, 02:02 PM: Message edited by: shmaley ]

Seeing that the exposure c/b coming soon and if you spin her head with R talk....it just might be too much too soon. Having her see you as a desireable hunk who also has great cooking skills, may be something she needs dangled in front of her a few more times. It may do the same as the R talk (getting her to miss you) without doing the R talk.

Now note this may prompt her to make you feel sorry for her since she isn't improving at the same rate..... don't fall for that ploy and demean yourself. If she says you are improving and she isn't, let her know you are improving and have every intention to keep on doing so. Welcome her to do the same and then stop.

If she questions you permanent changes as only temporary, let her know that you also question her changes (but don't go into detail about it). Generalities put the WS in a wondering stage of confusion which is where these are less likely to be attacking the BS. WS are weak in this state.

When is your next appointment with Jennifer?

Already did some job search stuff, now gotta go take the boys to the batting cage. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

JMHO,
L.

I don't have an appt scheduled with Jennifer C. right now. She told me before my first appt. to call her back in a month. I called back in two weeks. That was two weeks ago. I don't see the need for another appt right now as nothing much has happened since I last talked to her. I just have very little contact with WW. Once to twice a week was recommended and I feel that is sufficient right now. Besides the way things are going WW makes the contact most of the time. That is good right?

I'll hold off on the R talk in the letter then. Maybe I'll just send her one with small talk. It will get posted before I send it. I'll try to put it together tonight after my workout. Meanwhile I will work closely with RM to make sure the exposures go smoothly.

Wednesday night is my night to cook something new! I am going to do Strawberry Shortcake this time! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Got any pointers? I think that I will invite some people over to try it. But probably after it is finished. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Any bites on the jobs yet? Do you have 2 boys playing baseball? What are your stats anyways???

C.

Tell me know what you think. I kept it pretty light but still personal.

WW,

I’ve been really busy this last week. There is a lot of stuff going on between work and home. At home most of my time is spent reading and exercising. I have really been enjoying the exercise. There is always something to fix here at home. You know how it is. My next project is the leak under the dishwasher. If I take that dishwasher out I am probably going to put a new one back in. That dishwasher is so old, ugly, and loud. It really needs to go.

Wednesday night is my cooking night. I’m going to make Strawberry Shortcake this week. I’ve also been making a broccoli omelet on Saturday and Sunday mornings that is real good! "Friend" came down last weekend for the Bikes Blues and BBQ thing and I cooked for him. RM and I made an apple and cinnamon noodle kugel dish on Saturday night that was really good.

"Company" just had a QC inspection by one of our big customers. It was kind of stressful but I did well. We have a bunch of work now and everything thing is looking a little better. We’re still having problems with our customer that is reorganizing. But there is not a lot that we can do about it that we haven’t already done. Overall, I am growing more and more dissatisfied with my job there. "Uncle#2" has really shown his true colors this time. He was actually ready to fold the whole company up when we were having problems with the bank! Dad and "Uncle#1" had to override him. He is so very selfish.

I guess it’s officially your birthday week! Ha ha. Tell me again is your birthday on the 9th or the 11th. I’m staying 29 this year. I’ve decided 23 doesn’t fit me but 29 will work for the next few years. At any rate I hope your have a happy birthday.

BS

C.

C,

Sounds light but needs a little tweak? Remember these are just my opinions:

Hi W,

Wanted to drop you a line or 2. I've been really busy this last week. There is a lot of stuff going on between work and home. At home most of my time is spent reading,[b] exercising and fixing up stuff around the house.

Wednesday night is my cooking night. Turning out a few more recipes up on this weeks menu and sharing it with a few friends. So far my cooking endeavors are getting raves from 'the food critics'.

Work has been going up and down. Seems like there are 'some personalities' bent on giving everyone else a bad time. Sure is hard to deal with such bad attitudes.

I guess it's officially your birthday week! Ha Ha. Have a fun week. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Luv,
c.

Well those are my thoughts (the ones in bold).

Remember this is just 1 opinion. Do what you find is best for you.

take care,
L.

In general are you just saying that I should be a little more vague about the things that I am doing? Maybe to keep her wondering.

I haven't talked to WW in 6days now I think it is probably time for a call. Jennifer C. has said 1 to 2 a week for contact. I just haven't really felt like calling her because I will take it hard if she is short with me. Maybe I could call her and then be kind of be short with her before she could be short with me. Kind of out short her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Sounds funny but I might just try it. Any thoughts Orchid?

C.

haven't talked to WW in 6days now I think it is probably time for a call. Jennifer C. has said 1 to 2 a week for contact.

Shmaley -

Why don't you go two weeks without calling, just to see what happens. She might be so relieved you finally called after two weeks of not hearing from you, that she just might be nice <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by shmaley:
 ... I just haven't really felt like calling her because I will take it hard if she is short with me. Maybe I could call her and then be kind of be short with her before she could be short with me. Kind of out short her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Sounds funny but I might just try it. Any thoughts Orchid?

C. <hr /></blockquote>Well in my 'short' opinion ..... I'd say yes.... keep her wondering. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

BTW, great pix. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

L.

Remember, for a woman absence makes the heart grow fonder. Making her wonder just a little bit is a good thing!

I would go for the two weeks but I am going to a concert that she is in this Sunday. That's 9 days though!

What do you guys think? Should I take her anything nice? It is her birthday on Monday. She has always been very high maintenance around her birthday. She is an only child that has always been the center of attention. Or should I just give her the presents I have got for her? And what about her birthday on Monday. I am guessing at least a call. I am all ears.

Still haven't talked to her. However, I did hear from our hairdresser today. WW went in to get her hair done this afternoon and talked with our friend. When I called to set up an appointment she told me that WW didn't say much about the OM. I had previously exposed to this person because she is a good friend so she knows everything. WW just told her that he lived in "big city". She also told her that I had been real busy lately. At least I got as much or more air time as the A did. I am going in tomorrow to get a cut and maybe I will hear more. I think WW is wondering a bit.

Oh, this is a good one too. I called IL's last night for some cooking advice and spoke with MIL for just a bit. She said that WW had commented on the rolls that I had made and complained that I didn't give her one. Ha ...hahaha. WS's don't get cinnamon and sugar! Only tough love and Plan A. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

BTW I like that picture too. It was at our friends wedding party a couple of years ago. WW and I played for their wedding. Meditation by Thies and The Lords Prayer transcribed by me. Guitar and Violin. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

See you guys tomorrow.

C.

Hi Shmaley,

IMHO, save the biggie or heartfelt presents for your W not the WS. Maybe she will see that her actions are stopping others from the attention that only belongs to a good spouse, not a WS.

Enjoy the concert for what it is. If there is any squirming, let it be her not you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I have been enjoying reading some of your posts to others. You are providing good support. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Keep up the good work.

take care,
L.

Thanks for the complements Orchid. And thank you Weaver for your comments.

I am feeling a little torn this morning. I hear what you guys are saying about letting her wonder. But I am just starting to worry a little. If the next time I talk to her she asks why I haven't called her then I will just say "Why, is everything ok?" or "Did you need to talk to me?" I'll just act like I hadn't even realized how long it has been. That part I am ok with.

But what about Plan A. Jennifer said to plant seeds and I can't without contact. Or can I? It concerns me that a distance is developing. I feel it anyways. Maybe just in my head. It's starting to feel like a quasi Plan B. If my Plan A is so close to Plan B then it will lessen the effect. Right?

Straighten me out please.

C.

After thoughts.

I have been obsessing all day and I think I know why. This always happens when I don't feel that I have a clear plan of action. Or when WW does something crappy.

Too much thinking and not enough action makes me go crazy. Jennifer C. said to write a letter a week and make contact 1-2 even 3 times a week. I have not done that. I see the wisdom in both yours and Weavers posts and feel like they are also the right thing to do. In the end, either plan could have the desired effect or be disasterous. It's just the mulling around that is killing me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Help! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

C.

[ October 08, 2004, 03:43 PM: Message edited by: shmaley ]

Dear Shamely,

Anticipation, frustration and anxiety are all killers.....

You have your recommendations and assignments along with the facts, execute. Don't kill, implement. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You say that you get indecisive when you don't have a plan or WS gets crappy. Ok now which part of this problem can you control? For the part you can't, what will do you for you? To a certain extent, you even have control over how you allow her actions to affect you.

You are a maturing well.... keep it up. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

L.

Found out WW is going to OM's town again in a couple of weeks. I have transcended anger at this point. I don't know if I hate her or not. Tried to call her she didn't answer but she was on the other line. I left a message that said "I need you to call me." No bye nothing. I am over the edge right now. I am really sick of this stuff. I am better than her and she is a pathetic loser. Why would I want to be married to someone like that? A loser. To stupid to even reach up for a hand to help her out of the trash she is sleeping in and eating. Awful person. What a hateful awful person. REALLY WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME! SHE SUCKS. I keep saying to myself that I shouldn't post this. Maybe I will delete it before I do. But maybe not. I've seen me do it before. I am so tired and angry now I just want to sleep. You know I could have someone a lot better. Now that's the taker talking there.

C.

I'm doing a little better this morning.

I tried to call WW last night. She would not pick up and I could tell that she was on the other line. So I checked the phone records this morning and she was talking to OM. This isn't a surprise. I hope it made her feel like DIRT when I called. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I know that I said I wasn't going to check the phone records anymore but I already felt like crap so why the heck not?!!?

She never called back last night. She always calls me back. It might have been the saddness in my voice or just guilt keeping her from calling me. At any rate, I am going to call her this morning and try to get her to come over for breakfast. I will simply invite her. If she doesn't want to come it's her loss. I cook good!

I went ahead and wrote that letter that I posted last. It will get mailed today. I now pretty firmly believe that I need to stay in closer contact with her. Out of sight out of mind. She has a real hard time seeing me because it makes her think. When she goes to OM's town in a couple of weeks do I want her telling herself BS never calls me and being able to emotionally detach because we havent't had enough contact? No. I want her to see my face everytime that she sees or hears something that would even remotely remind her of me. I want her to not be able to escape my image. She will suffer if she has to think about me. She might also ask herself why.

Why do I get so bad like this guys??? I mean it's uncontrollable grief. If I knew what my triggers were I could at least TRY to avoid them.

Well, I am going to stick with the Jennifer C. guidelines for contact. And I am going to write her a letter a week too. I hope you guys will evaluate them for red flags. Most will have concepts but some will be like the one I just wrote. I think that WW is trying to push me out of her mind and if I am not around then it will become a whole lot easier. I am not going to make this easy on her. She is going to have to walk through the fire to get rid of me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

C.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by shmaley:
 ....Why do I get so bad like this guys??? I mean it's uncontrollable grief. If I knew what my triggers were I could at least TRY to avoid them.....<hr /></blockquote>Why? Because you are a BS and getting tired of the role. Can't say I blame you. U C how I get riled up in my postings, eh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I used to be a real nice person. LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Now I am a 'reverse babble expert.' <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You need to identify at least some of your triggers. You are in the midst of the mess and in order for you to do your personal recovery, you need to step out of it, identify your triggers and boundaries. Then implement your boundaries.

JMHO,
L.

WW came over this morning and I fixed her a broccoli omelet. She liked it a lot. We got to set down at the table for the first time in 2 months and eat together. She also got the last cinnamon roll. She liked that a lot also. Everything went real well. Except of course she is still going to "big city" for a concert series.

I went to the symphony concert this afternoon. It was real nice. Afterwards, I walked her to her car and she drove me to mine. When we got there I asked her if she could talk for a little while. She was in a hurry but said it was ok. We talked about how she feels. I asked her where she was at. She said pretty much the same as before. I asked her where that was. She wasn't being real forthcoming. Eventually, she tried to explain how she felt. She couldn't be very specific but I got the point. She basically feels confused and hurts when she sees me or talks about me. I offered an interpetation at her agreement. I told her that she felt this way because her actions were not reflecting the values that she has lived by all of her life. I told her this was called cognitive dissonance and that basically her heart and mind were not in sync. She looked like a light bulb came on for a moment and she agreed.

Next, I talked about Love. I told her that I was not under the illusion that she was in love with me right now. But that it would get better as we built a new M. I told her that I have learned that love is much more than I had ever thought it was before. Love is not best expressed in words. In fact, I told her that words were probably the lowest form of love. True Love I explained, is expressed through actions not words. With that one I single handedly shot down the last 2 mo of her and OM's phone A garbage and didn't even mention him. I just hope she holds that one up to the light.

She said that she had missed me but that she felt like if we got back together right now that things would be good for a while then they would go back to the same. I think that this is largely an excuse to buy more A time. I asked her what her definition of "getting back together" was. Basically, it is moving back in. I told her that I agreed that it would be a bad idea right now. There was no reason to do it right now. I told her that it was not my goal. Then I told her that my goal was to work on our new M.

We also talked about God a bit. I told her that I have become much closer to God and that He has helped me because I have asked Him to. She asked for examples I gave them. Then I told her that this was one of the things that we had failed at with our marriage. We had not included God. WW said that she had tried. I agreed. I told her that I had been very proud that she studied the Bible every night for some time. I also told her that she had done a better job than I had at this. I told her that I could feel the presence of the Lord leave me when I did not do what I knew was right. But when I Honestly try to do what I feel He believes is the right thing He gives me strength. Then, I told her that this is why it hurts me so deeply when she makes trips to "bigcity". Because she knows it is not the right thing.

Overall, I felt like it was a really good talk. She had to quit looking at me at one point because it was making her start to cry. I told her that I didn't want her to cry and tried to help her through it so that she could keep her composure. At one point I had told her that my saddest times are when I imagine her hurting or being upset. This meeting was good because she wasn't so negative. She also wasn't real positive but she seems to have lost her pointedness. She knows that I want her to feel good and tries to let me help her.

We arranged a time to meet so that I could give her B-day presents to her. When I got out of the car I leaned over to hug her and it seemed like she was offering her cheek. Maybe she was maybe she wasn't but I gave her a kiss none the less. She didn't freak out or anything and I smiled at her as I walked off to my car.

Well that's it. Tell me what you guys think.

BTW I got the bit about love by reading one of you old posts Orchid. You said that you realized that the kind of Love you wanted was defined by actions. I don't want any immataion Love either. It just doesn't taste the same. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Shmaley,

U done good. Real good. Quite proud of you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

U took it to a higher level and survived. Even got the WS to see a moment of clarity and speak sanely to you. That's an accomplishment.

An even worth celebrating from our BS standpoint ya know. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Well it's too late for Starbucks and I can't stop for a drink since I still have myself and little one to drive home (at my cousin's)...... so I will have a wine cooler for you when I get home. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I am sooo proud of how you communicated and handled yourself.

Keep up the good work. Steady steps. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

L.

I am a little mentally tired right now. WW came over for her B-day last night and I gave her a few presents and a card. Nothing spectacular but we did a little more talking. She asked me how work was going at work and I told her that it was alright but that I had realized that things will never change. Lots of family conflict in the business. She said well maybe you understand how I felt. I became defensive but did not let her know it until later. We were interupted by RM for a min. then went back to talking.

I tried to get her to explain what she meant a little better. She said that she felt trapped by the place that we were living in and knew that she would never be able to go anywhere in her career. I told her that I understood. Tried to get her to explain more but she said that was all there was to it. Then I talked a little about how defensive I had felt when she mentioned my family business. I was basically exploring these feelings with her and made sure that she knew it. Trying to show emotional honesty here. A little earlier I told her that I had started feeling bad. She said today? I said since you got here. She asked if it was my stomach or how I was feeling bad. I said mentally, I have started feeling sad. She looked away and was sad too for a moment. I told her that I was not telling her this to make her feel bad but that I just wanted to be totally honest with her about my emotions. Then, I encouraged her to do the same with me. Told her that I wasn't looking for a temperature reading every second that she was with me but I hoped that she would share her emotions with me.

The last thing I talked to her about was again the faith I have in God. I told her that I have put it in His hands. Not that I will not continue to persue you and improve myself, I said. But it is in His hands now. There quite capable hands don't you guys think? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I told her that I hoped that she would do the same and pray to Him. I told her that I pray for her every day. Then I told her that I often ask myself three questions (learned these from FiM).

1) Do I still love my W? Yes.
2) Do I want my M back? No, I want a better one.
3) Am I willing to fight for it? Yes

At this point she was trying not to cry. I didn't want to make her cry on her B-day and told her so. I gave her a big hug and hurried her off to meet her friends so that she would not become upset anymore. Told her to have a great time.

Now that was a good talk but today she is on the road for "Big City" (OM's town) to play in a concert series. I am still on my high from the last two conversations that we have had where I have been able to thoroghly express myself. So bitter sweet right now. I am dreading how shut down I am going to feel in the next few days when thoughts start to creep in. I will try my best not to think about it and also try to expect the worst. If I get to going on it too much it will only be a matter of min. before I will be seething. But as good luck would have it there is a lot going on for me this week! I'm having the first rehearsal with my new band on Thurs. and I've go IC with the ST on Wed.. I'm working out everyday, building a computer for my parents, and work is really bumping. Along with many house projects that I can do there is quite a bit going on. Just need to keep my mind off of it for now.

C.

Hi Shmaley,

Not much to add. Seems like you know this is the bumpy part of the course but you have managed to retain control and do what you find you need to do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I am glad to see you are making strides forward. Mildly letting her know and then moving forward so that your actions match your words. Radical honesty, you are showing by example. This is good.

Keep up the good work.

I think she will be wondering what you are up to. Yippee!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

L.

I have been pondering on if I should pull back again when she gets back. I mean as kind of a reaction to her visit to OM's town. I think that it should cost her. However, I am not wanting to back off and lose ground right after she has this visit with OM.

What do you think?

BTW I finally called the pastor that married us tonight. He has known WW since her birth. He was very saddened by the news and talked to me for about 45min. At the end we prayed and he offered to help any way I saw fit. He said that if I thought that a door was open to let him know and he would do what ever he could. It was real good to talk to him.

C.

C.

Hi Shamley,

Well I am glad you were able to get more postive support! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

As for the pulling back stuff, since you asked what I thought you are now obligated to hear it. LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Watch her attitude and actions:

1. If she shows anger, frustration, can't look you in the eye and doesn't want to talk, then don't pursue convo. Pull back. Be the strong and silent type. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

2. If she speaks only of her accomplishements and fears but mainly about herself, listen politely and don't give info about what you are up to. She probably can't handle it.

3. If she tells of her trip and also shows interests in how you are doing, then be polite and show your interest in her accomplishments and briefly outline what you have been up to. Leave her wanting to ask more. Be coy if you need. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Item 3 is meeting her needs. Items 1 & 2 are not meeting much of her needs if you try to say much. So don't set yourself up to fail by meeting as many of her needs if she is relunctant to allow it.

JMHO,
L.

WW never really shows anger or frustration towards me. I'm just too darn nice right now.

You have to undersatnd that WW has always been wound tight as a top. Very stressed out about the littlest things, to the point that she would curse and growl at very minor frustrations. Such as the phone ringing, me leaving a shirt out on the couch, and anything at all to do with a computer. Lots of yelling and cursing. Her behavior progressed to this level over the last three years.

Now she almost never behaves this way in front of me. And if she does it is very mild. No yelling and cursing. She does act a little frustrated but not angry or agressive EVER.

The point I am getting at here is that she is very much avoiding conflict by extinction. So up to now she does not start conversations with me. She always keeps it very surface. However, the comment that she made at our last talk

<blockquote>quote:<hr />She asked me how work was going at work and I told her that it was alright but that I had realized that things will never change. Lots of family conflict in the business. She said well maybe you understand how I felt. <hr /></blockquote>is really the first time I can remember since d-day that she has volunteered her feelings. She even instigated the conversation. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I went to the IC/ST today and told him about this. He said this was a perfect opportunity for me to have validated her feelings. We were clicking on something and I didn't really catch it because I was too wrapped up in trying to explain how I felt. It is still good that it happened but I will be ready to get more into how she feels and try harder to accept, understand, and validate next time.

But back to what I was saying about her not starting conversations. If she were more talkative then I could more easily use your advice Orchid. But she just never really gives me much. I have to drag most of it out of her. Guess I'll just keep on dragging. But I feel like I am talking to myself and for myself. I will definitely admit that I have a tendency to run on and on sometimes, expecially when I feel convicted about something. I am very convicted about the things I have learned here but I have been real good about not lecturing or being overbareing.

I was talking to RM tonight and she said that she felt like WW was feeling ok whenever she thought that I was doing ok. And when she thought I was doing bad she was concerned, very inquisitive and even upset. I told RM a long time ago to tell WW to call me when ever she asked RM how I was doing. This makes me want to let he know somehow how much pain I have been through. IC/ST said tonight that he felt I should let WW know my feelings in this way. He has seen how outwardly confident and strong I seem and asked me what were some of the emotions that "I" was feeling. Sadness, Anger, Guilt, Abandonment, Loneliness, Fear, and Embarassment all came out in about 5 sec. He said "WOW, have you told WW about any of these emotions?" That was the first time that I realized that I had not told her any of these emotions that I have been experiencing. How do I convey this to her??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I mean that's pretty heavy material to lay on a WS but she needs to know. Along with the fact that RM said what I just told you I think that it is probably necessary. But how? You know I just realized that I told her the other night something that really qualifies for this and I even posted it. Remember:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I said mentally, I have started feeling sad. She looked away and was sad too for a moment. I told her that I was not telling her this to make her feel bad but that I just wanted to be totally honest with her about my emotions. Then, I encouraged her to do the same with me. Told her that I wasn't looking for a temperature reading every second that she was with me but I hoped that she would share her emotions with me. <hr /></blockquote>This is what I have been talking about. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> See how thick I am sometimes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> On those lines now I should accomplish the same for the other emotions as I see fit for the situation. But more than that I should ask her about her emotions more. That is how I got her to open up a little after the concert on Sunday. I asked "Where are you at?"

Well, this post is just kind of a journey tonight and it is not adressing what I intended it to address but it is useful. In my last post I was really trying to ask "shouldn't I give WW some consequences for her action of going to see OM"? I would accomplish this through the pulling back. Probably a bad idea I guess. I just feel like....well you know helpless I guess. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I am not feeling terrible yet so don't worry. But I am sure it's in the mail. Just a matter of time.

C.

I was at work this morning and started feeling bad. I woke up depressed this morning because I was dreaming about WW and OM. Been trying to fight it. So I decided to use what the IC/ST told me to do yesterday. I decided to call WW and let her know how I felt. Of course she didn't answer so I left this message:

I am just sitting in my car because I can't focus on anything at work. I really need to talk to you right now. Pause......breathing and regaining composure I woke up this morining Depressed then I started Obsessing, then I Scheme, then I get Angry, and then I am Depressed all over again. Pause......breathing and regaining composure I'm just in a lot of pain right now. Bye

I was very emotional in my delivery and almost cried. Not like me, I'm just not really a crier. One thing is for sure I am starting to feel a lot better. Letting that out helped. I am starting to realize how emotionally closed of a person I really am. I've got some really thick armour. My guess is it stems from my sister's struggle and death when I was 13. I mean I lived that for as long as I can remember. That experience is enough to make anyone clam up shut down. Maybe I just needed to display so much emotion while I was a child that I could not keep up and as a result I just shut down. Sad.

See how good I am at analysing myself. I am so left brained analytical I am suprised I don't number my underwear. I mean it's all just theory but it's been a journey to get to that conclusion. I think it has at least some truth to it.

I am so greatful for all of your guys here at MB and you ((((Orchid)))) especially.

C.

Shamley,

I have seen you learn and grow a lot in this short time. Though it seems like an eternity your progress shows you are making great strides. Learning to cope with one's limitations is a big step in our personal recovery.

Keep the forward momentum. It is an uphill battle but it is definitely worth the the struggle. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Those bad dreams can send a BS spinning at times. Knowing this will help you realize you are not alone with your feelings. Keep posting and venting as needed.

I got help when I needed it here. I also had to take the steps to apply what I was learning. I can see you doing the same.

Keep it up! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

L.

shmaley - Sorry, I don't remember reading about your sister's death when you were 13. Are you comfortable talking about it? If not, please forgive this post.

I am fine talking about it. She had CF (cystic fybrosis). Discovered at 4yrs and she died when she was 16. CF attacks the lungs with lots of mucus. She had to have what we called treatments everyday where Mom or Dad took a paddle and ran it on her back until she coughed up some of the flem in her lungs. She lived with a smokers type cough all of her life. She was a very bright girl. We fought all the time but she would have stuck up for me if I needed it. We loved each other.

I didn't cry real tears when she died. I made myself cry because I felt it was expected. I also didn't want to live the rest of my life knowing that the night my sister died I didn't cry. The night she died we were all in the childrens hospital the whole family grandparents and everyone. She was outlived by her grandparents.....My mother was not right for close to ten years. That was when I think that she finally stopped grieving. She went through phases of blaming herself to hoping that somehow she might have been reincarnated in children that were recently born. I went through this with her. My mother is a good christian in my eyes. She has always encouraged our faith and has kept hers through all things. As well her and my father stayed married through all of this.

I remember that she liked fried okra and boiled shrimp. And she liked payday bars too. She always wanted long hair and could never grow it so she would run around the house with a slip on her head and say it was long hair. *smile* She really loved Kentuckey Fried Chicken too. She did very well in school and had a lot of friends.

Well that's the condensed version. Never wrote anything about it before. And I don't usually talk about it either. I do miss her sometimes though. If she was here she would be helping me right now. The more I write the more I start to get sad so I'm gonna stop now.

C.

Shmaley,

{{{hugz}}}} Your parents s/b proud. They have loving and caring children. I am sure your sister was proud to have you as her brother. I know I would have been. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Your last post must have been hard but am glad if it helped a bit. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Going through experiences like yours can help us realize what is really important in life. Material advantages attained via greed or hurting others to attain other selfish interests, don't hold a candle to real love.

Hugz,
L.

Schmaly,

Try and have a good weekend, ok?

You really are a heck of a guy!

Weaver

Thanks, Weaver.

You too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

C.

Ditto Weaver!!!

Have some fun in the sun!

Aloha,
L.

I forgot to mention the exposure at WW's school happend. She is out of town and doesn't know it yet though. It cannot be traced back to me as far as I can tell. However, if she tries to blame me she will be out of luck because I will stonewall her and babble right back at her if need be! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I was talking with RM tonight and she thought what I said to WW in the phone call will be very beneficial. She feels like WW tries to think most of the time that I am doing "OK" and that makes her feel alright. Well, I'm not ok! And most everytime I feel not "ok" I am going to call her and ask for her support. Maybe this will show her just how not "ok" I can really be. When I hurt I am going to share the burden with her.

I have to go into work in the morning and that is a real bummer. I have really started to hate my job. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> My father is great and I love him a lot. But that is not a good reason to stay in a job that I cannot tolorate. With people that I cannot tolorate. In a situation that will never change. Too many family politics in family businesses. I would not recommend one that is shared by syblings. An immediate family type family business might be ok. But there is too many conflicting philosophies in my situation.

Well, I guess I will lurk some more.

C.

Here's my Plan B letter. I'm not going into Plan B right now or anything but Jennifer C. told me to draft one all the same. I stole this one for the most part....so who ever wrote this thanks. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

My Dearest WW,

This is a difficult letter for me to write, but it’s written with love and compassion. Please read every word I have written as it is from my heart.

I feel deeply saddened by what has happened to our marriage and us. I apologize to you for my part in
creating an environment that resulted in your affair with <OM>. This has been a wake up call for me. I now clearly recognize many of my mistakes in the past and how I was not meeting your needs. I cannot change those, but I have learned from them so that I can take steps to ensure that they will not occur again. I am willing to avoid the mistakes I've made in the past and create a new life for both of us that will meet your most important needs. Whatever happens to us, these changes are permanent in me and I am a better person because of them.

You may not know what I have endured because of your decision to separate and because of your relationship with [OM]. I fully realize that these things were just symptoms of pre-existing problems. But all of these problems are fixable. I have worked hard by myself on this. I still love you, but now I find that it is just too painful for me to continue by myself. Seeing and talking to you is just a constant reminder of the pain that I feel. I just cannot see or talk to you and try to be your friend under these conditions any longer - until you are ready to put this behind us permanently and are willing to try to rebuild our family. Simply put, I am now separating from you in order to protect myself from the stresses and from further pain and to protect my love for you until you are ready to commit to rebuilding our family. I understand that you may have your own pain and that I may be the source of your pain, but these things are fixable if we are willing to try.

Until you can truthfully and honestly end your relationship with <OM> and return home and work with me on rebuilding our marriage, I will avoid seeing or talking to you. I will also not be able to help you financially. I will continue to provide financial support for what I've addressed in the attached letter. "Friend" and "Friend" have agreed to help make arrangements for you if you need to access the house. Except in the case of a life threatening situation, if you want to talk to me, it will have to be through "F" and "F".

I am not doing this to punish you, it is to protect my feelings for you and our chances at rebuilding our relationship once we have a chance. If we continue as we are now, I'm afraid there would be nothing left between us. I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you in this way.

I love you WW. You will always be very special to me. You are the only person I have allowed myself to love so deeply. I loved you more than life itself while we were together, and I continue to do so as I write this. I look back through our life and I now I choose to only remember the good times and learn from the bad. I can forgive whatever pain you have caused and hope that in time you will forgive me too. I just cannot be with you or see you while you are with another and feel the need to have a separate life without me.

When you find yourself ready and willing to truly and fully commit to our family, willing to work on a plan to rebuild our marriage, willing to permanently separate from OM, and join me in counseling, I will be ready and willing to discuss our future. These are the conditions I have set for myself necessary to end my separation from you.

I want us to be able to rebuild our marriage some day. I want us to be able to meet each other's emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We need to build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then there will never again be a reason for us to separate. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you as my best friend.

I loved you when we married and I continue to love you right up to this day. I just cannot be with you or help you as long as you are seeing OM.

With my love,
BS

OM. I love WW with all my heart and I am willing to do whatever it takes to make her happy. Do the honorable thing by allowing our family a chance to rebuild.

I think it sums up my situation perfectly. I am going to set up some IC next week with Jennifer C.and I'll ask her what she thinks of it. What do you guys think?

C.

[ October 17, 2004, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: shmaley ]

I like the letter, as far a Plan B letters go. They are so incredibly sad, knowing the heartache behing them that I don't really like to read them, so I am no expert by far.

Hugs to you Schmaly (I hope I spelled it right this time)

((((((Schmaly)))))

weaver

LOL Weaver... S h m a l e y <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Just think Sh male y pronounced shh-mail-e

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks for the reply. Putting this letter together makes me feel more in control. I mean I have to move on even if she isn't going to come along with me. I think I read a post today by TMCM that said something about A's being immature and that Mature people would not be afraid to D and live alone. I am feeling more that way all the time. It is a feeling of self respect and confidence. I still love my W. But I am of a higher caliber than she is giving me credit for.

{{{HugZ Back}}} <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

C.

Orchid,

WW is playing in a concert tonight. She has a lot of solos and it will be infront of lots of faculty. Should I take her a Rose which is traditional for after performance at these types of concerts. Even though I have not yet even seen or spoken to her since she got back from OM's town? Remember exposures have begun at this place and me being nice in front of these people should be a real nice added load of pressure on WW. What do you think?

Of course, my original plan was to go but not stay long enough afterwards to talk to her. Sort of a punishment for her going to see OM. But I will endure if it could be beneficial. Not wanting to be a doormat but I want the opportunity to fill the EN for admiration and apply indirect pressure at the same time. Sort of a power play. I am "ok" for doing this, really.

C.

Orchid,

WW is playing a concert in which she has a lot of solos tonight in front of a lot of faculty. I was planning on going but leaving before I even saw her. Sort of a punishment for going to see OM. She just got back from her trip and I haven't seen or spoken to her yet. However, I see an opportunity here. Should I maybe take her a rose (or just flowers), which is sort of traditional for after concerts. I don't want to be a doormat but I am "ok" with this as long as it could be beneficial. There are exposures coming out in this place (even though she doesn't know it yet) and me being nice to her infront of these people could really make a difference for public opinion. As well, I see it as a sort of power play where I get to supply an EN (admiration) and become the good guy. Let me know what you think.

C.

Sorry though I lost that last post so I rewrote. Both say the same thing.

[ October 18, 2004, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: shmaley ]

Dear Shmaley,

Sorry for the delayed reponse, I have to go to my cousin's house when I post. My 'puter ain't up yet. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

As for the 'rose', I think it w/b in good taste. I was speaking to a MB yesterday(who doesn't post much here anymore) and we were 'talking about your sitch'. He is a single father who had his children taken from him by the WS due to his being reassign and scheduled t/b deployed. He told me about when he sent flowers to his wife's workplace and the workers got all excited. Mind you, his WS was shacking up with a clerk from a variety dept store, where she was also employed. Yet some of the workers were excited when the BS sent her flowers. Sure threw a wrench in the A. To this day, that WS does not sound happy.

Anyway, I think the rose w/b a good gesture. Be prepared the OM may do the same. Don't act in comptetion, just do what is from your heart. Nothing to big or flambouyant. Simple and sweet is very charming. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

JMHO,
L.

Well, last night was interesting.....so much happened and it was very emotional so I will try to remember everything as it was but no promises. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I went to the concert as planned and ended up seeing some of WW's & my friends. They asked me to sit with them. So we got some tickets and started for our seats. On the way we saw two of the faculty members that were part of the recent exposure. I greeted them and we shook hands. They asked how I was and I told them real good and showed my best side. They could both see that I had brought a rose for WW. real classy, thanks Orchid I was looking good and felt confident. When we went inside we were joined by yet another friend of WW's. Probably her best friend. The concert went off without a hitch. Handel, Stravinski, and Mendelssohn for you classical heads. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> WW had lots of solos in the Handel and she did well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

After the concert the friends and I went back stage to see WW. There were a crowd of people in the hall all talking and bustling around. WW was talking to a married friend of ours when I walked up and said "Hi" and handed her the rose. She thanked me but did not give me much eye contact at all. I stood there not saying much and smiling. Complemented her playing and that was about it. The head of the department was there and started talking to WW others were walking by complementing her performance. Then I could tell that they were talking about something a little serious. I found out later that the faculty member that I had seen out front had told WW that he would be teaching her class in the morning. WW has always looked up to this person and he was obviously upset with her. We know part of the reason why. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> The other part is that WW is having a lot of trouble teaching the class and students are complaining about her. And yet another part is that this faculty member knows that she is not only having an A but moonlighting in OM's town. This faculty member who I will call GP likes us a lot and even played at our wedding for free. He is a faithful M man as well. So this exposure has played an impending situation in my direction. Using WW's out of control momentum to my advantage here. So far there are three exposures at WW's place of work that I know of. All married people and friends.

I knew GP was going to do something but I did not know what or when. Apparently the way GP treated WW after the concert along with basically taking her class away from her upset WW tremendously. (Back to the hall after the concert) WW went walking down the hall with her best friend in tow and headed into the womens dress room. I stopped outside the door. But I could see inside for a moment and WW was sitting at a chair with her head in one hand crying . This image has haunted me ever since. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> it causes me Great pain to see her hurting this way and not even be able to go to her. She was in the dressing room with two girlfriends and RM. RM came out and I said I need to see her. RM said I'll get girl friend #1. Girl friend #1 came out and I asked if there was anyone else inside and told her that I needed to see WW. She said go ahead. So I went in and best friend was with WW sitting and consoling her. I was very gentle and at this point didn't know what GP had said to her. I said I am sorry that I ruined your night. She said It's not your fault Honey. (Was that a slip? We have always called each other that.) Then best friend explained some of what GP had done and said. Then best friend excused herself for a moment.

I asked WW if she wanted to talk about it. She said that what GP had done was just the icing on the cake in her F***** up life. I told her that I was sorry that she was hurting. It all gets fuzzy here so I'll just give the bits and pieces that I remember. I tried to talk to her a little bit and maybe I shouldn't have but it was relevant in the case of her F***** up life. I told her that she couldn't just sweep her M under the rug. That I wouldn't let her because I love her too much. I told her that I loved her enough to go through this.... Said that I think that I had been through quite enough at this point and thought that she would agree. I asked do you agree? She said I think that you have been through several things that you shouldn't have put up with. She said she couldn't look at me. When I asked why she said because it makes her sad. This is the guilt creeping in here. I also told her that we got married for a reason and that it was because we loved each other. Those feelings can come back I told her. Also said that I wanted her to give me some serious R talk time and that doesn't mean just going to the counselor and dropping me off. At some point during this she got up and said that she couldn't take anymore talking about it right now. She went into the bathroom. When she didn't return in a couple of sec. I went in after her and she was standing in a stall with her head in her hand leaning up against the inside of a toilet stall. I asked her to come back out she looked startled and mumbled no no.. but then came back out with me and sat down. At this point I just wanted to help her calm down so that she would not feel so bad. best friend came back and they decided to go to the car and make some sort of plan for the night.

I saddens me so much to see WW hurt this way even though it is of her own doing. No one wants to see the ones they love hurt. After concerts is always a great time for celebration and talking and laughing. And great affirmation of the good job that the performer has accomplished. WW got the opposite and it had to be that way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

As we walked out of the concert hall we were talking a little, really about nothing. When we had to walk our separate ways she thanked me for the flower and I asked for a hug. When I huged her I said into her ear (I am sorry that you are hurting and having such a bad night Honey). I hugged her real tight. She said as we let go and she was walking away "all I ever do is hurt you" I said back quickly "that's Not true". And I walked to my car.

When I got home last night I called my IL confident and told her a little of what had happened. She has been down on her back and unable to help with WW any. She told me that she would call her today and see if she could get her to talk some. WW has still not told this person all what is going on. I feel that this would be perfect timing for her to chime in and give WW the positive confidant that she needs.

That's pretty much it. I didn't think I would be able to remember it all. Writing it out always helps it come back and lets me analyse it a little better as well. I called her this morning at about 10:30am and said: I was just calling to see how you were doing. I hope your feeling a little better. You were so sad last night and I was worried about you. I hope you will give me a call later. Bye

I think it went well overall. It sure was painful though. I hope that this experience has some sort of positive effect on WW. Let me know what you guys think. I am particularly interested in what you think about the things that she said. I think that some of her statements are telling and deserve a little analysis. She is not like so many WW's that I have heard about in that she seems to be truly remorseful for hurting me. Not trying to fool myself but I am wondering if this is a sign that she could be moving towards me.

C.

[ October 19, 2004, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: shmaley ]

Shmaley,

Glad to hear your part went well. The rose certainly added a nice touch. Seems to have reached through the fog, eh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Her choices are showing up lacking in more areas of her life. Unfortunately helping her often means letting her suffer or work through the situations her decisions create for her.

You and your M are part of that path. Others will react and handle it as they see fit. Part of being a family is seeing the hurt and pain these choices create and having to step back to watch and catch insteading of 'just fixing it'.

Shmaley, you are learning this life's lesson very young but well. I would say that her responses are to be taken with several grains of salt. She will hurt and her responses will go up and down. Some of her responses and choices will cause pain and others will give pain.

The BS often hangs on to the littlest pieces of hope and often makes the mistake of over analyzing each word, thought and action. It is something hard not to do.

My piece of advice is to step back and watch but don't analyze too much. There are bits of senerity with most interactions. That is often what makes the BS feel the hope. It is true we need the hope but we also need reality.

For now I would say that the positive thing is that not everyone is supporting her stance and that is bothering her. That is a point for your side (yea there are sides in this fight for our M's).

Keep up your progress. She will catch up. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

take care,
L.

As the exposures continue at school she will begin to feel more and more presure. I just hope that it pushes her in my direction. But I know that it will most likely be the opposite. Right now I am begining to start attempting to band our parents together. As well I am going to try to get MIL to recruit some of our family friends to talk to WW. These people are avid church goers and real good people. I think that they will be gentle with WW but firm in their convictions toward what she is doing. I am hoping that a strong church family bond will have a good influence on WW.

I had the worst day today. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Sat around sobing part of the morning and didn't go to work. It all started when RM said to me last night that she didn't think that WW wanted me to help her the other night at the concert. I don't know why but I got so upset after she told me this and I just couldn't shake it. Didn't sleep well and woke up real depressed. Then I couldn't make it to work because I was to upset. It was looking pretty bleek. But now I am feeling better. The funny thing is that RM's statement was nothing that I didn't already know. But it affected me deeply. I have to remember that.

C.

Well, I have started bonding the family together. My Mother is going to call WW's parents at least 3 times a week and try to get them to call her on a regular basis as well. My mother is a real chatter box and a very nice person to talk to. Kniting the family together tighter is a good idea I think.

I don't know if I have ever mentioned that there are virtually no divorces in our families. Both our parents and grandparents have been lifelong companions. Not one divorce. I have an uncle that was divorced and that is it, period. Pretty amazing in my book. Never thought about using this to my advantage before until my Grandmother asked if WW's family had any divorces. When I said no she made the observation. Then I recognized the opportunity. I have prayed about this a lot and this is an answer. Don't worry that I am thinking that this is a silver bullet. However, it is a wise resource to utilize. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I am making sure that all continued exposures are done either done by IL's or someone other than myself. This thing is getting more wide open all the time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Here is another piece of wisdom I recieved from Him. WW told RM about a gig that she got to play while in OM's town. It was a last min thing she got to be the soloist and everyone was real impressed with her. When she told RM about it RM told her "wow" and "I am so jelous that you got to play that gig". When RM told me about this it didn't hit me right away but then after praying and thinking about it I realized that this was so very enabling to the A! I spoke to FIL and he told me basically the same story the WW had said to him. I told him that I hoped that the people around WW were not encouraging this through acceptance of this gig as a good thing. Because when WW hears them say that "good job" she will translate it into Good job leaving your husband, having an affair and oh yeah the gig thing too". I put it into a context that would not make him feel that I was telling him what to do with his D. It was a good conversation. Next, I spoke to RM about the same thing at first she disagreed but after I explained further she looked totally convinced. She said to me "I am so glad that you said that I would have never of thought of it that way." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

RM was feeling real bad that she had said something the night before that upset me so much. I put her at rest by telling her that it was now very apparent to me that I had overreacted. And that she had not told me anything that I didn't already know. I was just in a fragile state and decided to crack at that moment. She was very relieved and said she was very glad that I had told her this as well.

Well, I got to go for now. Work is crazy today and lunch is over. I have a new confidence in my direction and it feels good. Thanks mainly to Prayer and all of you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

C.

Hi Shmaley,

I wrote out a long response but it went poof! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Ok, I will try again..... hm.... it certainly was a good one. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Well I am glad you were able to bounce back as soon as you did. This roller coaster doesn't stop at the BS' request you know but the BS can control how much it affects them. But U knew that didn't you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Man, I wish I remember all that I wrote. Give this ol' gal another chance. I will post more later. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

take care,
L.

Man, I hate it when that happens. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I used to always type mine out on notepad then copy and paste. But, I have gotten lazy and have been burnt a couple of times now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Well, I'll be here.....better use notepad though just in case... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Orchid,

I hope you still answer my last post but I have been having some new thoughts as well.

Everytime I see WW recently I talk about R at least a little bit. It always makes her cry. Even though I try to give it to her gently. Should I back off of this so that she doesn't associate me with being sad all the time. Or take the hardline stance that it's necessary. I mean she needs to know how I feel right? Maybe a mix of both. That is kind of how I have been doing. Just recently more of R and M talk.

C.

Morning Shmaley,

How was your weekend? I read your previous post again and while those 'words from my deleted post' has'nt returned, I thought of a few new thoughts. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

As for people encouraging her performances (solo or not), this seems to stroke her ego. In the A, the WS craves on this type of attention. Remember A's put the WS in a selfish state of mind. However, the WS tend to be adverse to any compliments from the BS.

Ok, how to use that info to your advantage..... well let the others do the complimenting. You already showed your pride in her work. Periodically continue to do so but not every time or often. If you do, that would be like rewarding a bad child.

Nope, while you need to acknowledge her accomplishments, you need to show by your actions that her conduct with the A is not part of her accomplisments you are proud of.

This is hard to do. But if you learn how to do this, you can accomplish your plan A, not LB and strengthen your anti-A stance.

I used this technique on my WS and for me it worked. What I used was to tell my WS that while I admired his accomplishments, I did not admire his current conduct. Didn't go into detail, I left that for later. I let him know that there was a difference between his good acts and bad. That his good acts would not cover over his bad acts and he is being treated based on both. When he does good acts and treats us as he should, we will reciporcate. When he acts bad and treats us cruelly, we will act accordingly to protect ourselves. Then I gave him the power to choose how to treat us. Told him he needed to keep his A stuff to himself and not burden us anymore with the A nor the effects of the A. It was his job to be as nice and show us his best side since the A was his choice not ours.

Basically I was headed to plan B and give him his A problems. It worked. The WS' face tends to distort and looks quite funny but remember you can't feel sorry for them in this state. You gotta be firm and remind then you love them when they were and are good but can't when the are bad.

Hope this helps.
L.

My weekend was fine how was yours?

There is a lot getting ready to happen I think. I have heard through the grapevine that MIL and FIL are getting ready to really sock it to WW. Going to tell her basically if you choose to live this way it will be without us. I just hope they keep their nerve up enough to go through with it. I want to support them right now but I also need to distance myself so that I can truly say that I had nothing to do with their decision. At this point, I really don't. But I am real glad that they are doing it and I would tell WW that also.

I spoke with Jennifer C. last night. She read through most all of this topic and said I was doing exceptionally well in Plan A. I did get a little selfish the other night after the concert by talking about R instead of comforting WW but I did not LB with any DJ. Even though my opinion is that she deserved it I didn't say it or act like I thought that.

I am hopeing and praying that WW is deeply affected by her parents decision. As well I am praying that they will have the strength to do it! WW told IL's last week that she didn't know if she believed in "any of that stuff anymore" refering to God and religion. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> Jennifer C said that this is very common that the WS tries to either change God or deny Him. My WW knows too much about the Bible to try to change it I think so the only place for her to go is denial. This is very sad for me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Yesterday was a very busy day. I went to family Dr. in the morning, then IC after work, then had the phone counseling with Jennifer C. at night. And to top it all off my RM had to go to the ER because she has been sick for so long she has become dehydrated. She is still in the hospital today but is getting better.

Hopefully I will have more to tell soon but for right now everything is just wait.............................. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

God Bless you all for being here for me through this time.

C.

Shmaley,

Sounds like your support group is already in action. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Your part w/b to sit back and let them do their job. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Glad to hear you are still counseling with Jennifer. She is also giving your good guidance.

You are taking the proper advantage of your tools and doing well.

My weekend was ok. I had my parents over for dinner on Sunday. Had to go to 5 stores and still didn't get what I needed (turkey fillets). Oh well, I improvised and my parents liked their dinner (or at least pretended to - LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ).

I also baked some cookies so my son has a snack for school. Quite good if I might say.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

My dad had a sore back from working in his yard (laying a cement tile border). He is 71. I gave him a magnetic massage and he is feeling much better. I was glad to have helped him.

Hope your roommate is doing better. Get some rest, ok?

take care,
L.

WW,

There is so much to be thankful for in our lives. I started feeling this way today and it made me think about you. The only sad part is that you are not here sharing it with me. Iâ€™ve so much to tell you I could probably talk for a week.. Maybe you are having a good day as well. Or maybe this letter will help you to feel what I am feeling right now. I hope so.

It just dawned on me that I havenâ€™t asked you how important honesty and is to you. How does it make you feel when I tell you exactly what I am thinking and how it makes me feel? I hope that you might write this down and let me know how you feel about this. I was just learning about how important that honesty and transparency is. In the past, was I transparent enough for you? What I really want to do is practice these things with you. I just want you to know that if you give me the chance I would like to be totally transparent with you leaving nothing hidden.

There is so much to do these days I barely have time to fit it all in. Iâ€™ve been reading so much. And many of the things I used to make time for just donâ€™t matter to me that much anymore. One thing is for sure though; I have a growing feeling inside. It is very strong and compelling and helps me when I need it. These times have been the hardest of my life. But I am determined to grow and succeed in the face of it all.

You know I found the first poem that I ever wrote for you tonight. Itâ€™s dated 6/4/97.

Wrap your soul around mine, Let our hearts be intertwined.
In your eyes I see eternity, and a place where I can be free.
Hold my heart of glass, And Iâ€™ll hold yours.
In my arms will you always be, safe from selfish hypocrisy.
Embrace the light of my life, for it grows dim without your Love.
In His house all will see, that I was made for you and you were made for me.

With my Love,

C.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Not trying to be a downer but, be careful in getting too excited over your in-laws decision to cut her off. While in the end it may be the saving grace for your M, there is a good chance that for awhile she won't care what they do.

Very touching letter. If you get a negative response from her on this one, you'd better get prepared to move forward into plan B.

If she doesn't swing either way....hold your ground. If she gives a positive sign, tread lightly.

Very rough waters ahead but you are learning to calm the storm.

All the best,
L.

TTSi said: <blockquote>quote:<hr />there is a good chance that for awhile she won't care what they do. <hr /></blockquote>I agree because that is how it is already. However, she cannot deny her family forever. She is also denying God right now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

Orchid: She won't respond either way and I'll hold my ground. That is par for this course. It would be refreshing if she would get angry or something. She is so full of guilt right now I think that it is all that she can do just to not think about me. I just wish I knew when her guilt is going to turn into regret and cause some thought in her foggy brain. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I am growing weary of the road.....

C.

Feeling a little bummed this morning. It's raining and I stayed up too late talking with confidant. So now I am paying for it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I spoke with the pastor last night and I was surprised in his attitude. He seems more inclined toward D. I just don't understand that!?!! He should be helping encourage M not D. He was kind of in give up mode.

Orchid said: <blockquote>quote:<hr />Very touching letter. If you get a negative response from her on this one, you'd better get prepared to move forward into plan B.<hr /></blockquote>What do you mean? Why would I gauge when I go in plan B on WW's response? Shouldn't Plan B be my decision based on how I feel? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

My Plan B date that I have set is not this year. Of course I re-evaluate every month too. So I could always go early.

Well gotta run for work.

C.

Schmaley- I can really feel all the pain you've been thru and are going thru. You've got to be so hurt by all the emotional w/d of your WS and her mixed messages.

You've done great to hang on.

As for your pastor, maybe he's recommendng D bc he sees the amount of pain you are in - that she inflicts on you?

Do you you ever wonder how long you can continue exposing yourself to the pain? Plan B is about limiting your pain and preserving whatever is left of your love and respect for your W, isn't it?

Restarting,

Thanks for the response.

I feel that the pastor was coming from a very conservative place. He has known WW since her birth and it is hard for him to see her doing this to herself and he does not and can not (in my opinion) understand it. He has not offered me much sympathy really. I don't ask for it from him either. I've got no problem accepting sympathy but I think he is coming from a different place. It was dissapointing to hear it and my confidant was suprised about it as well.

Restarting said: <blockquote>quote:<hr />Do you you ever wonder how long you can continue exposing yourself to the pain? Plan B is about limiting your pain and preserving whatever is left of your love and respect for your W, isn't it? <hr /></blockquote>Yes, I wonder this quite often and I try to take my temperature quite often. Orchid is always pushing my Plan B button as well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> She's been doing it on and off since about page 2.

As for the pain, well you know how that goes. I'm a tougher little **** than anyone thought, including myself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> The part I worry about the most is losing respect and Love for WW. That is where faith in God and Plan B comes in for me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

C.

Schmaley-
you wrote:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> The part I worry about the most is losing respect and Love for WW<hr /></blockquote>Me 2.

But, as of Tuesday am, his last contact, and OW said "I can't believe you're doing this and leaving me with no money! Have a nice life!" he has sworn NC. There is, of course much more to this, but I have updated my saga lately.

He swears he will restore my trust and faith in him. I really need it bad. I doubt everything now , not just him, everything, everybody. I used to trust a lot. Now, not even my own thoughts and feelings.

I do trust God, bc, of course, His plan is divine, But don't know His plan. Is it to make us better for each other and with each other? Or is it to have us go separate ways?

You?

Restarting said: <blockquote>quote:<hr />I do trust God, bc, of course, His plan is divine, But don't know His plan. Is it to make us better for each other and with each other? Or is it to have us go separate ways? <hr /></blockquote>God's plan is not to understand only to follow.

About the trust in your H, well has he earned any lately? I would guess not. If he complains that you do not trust him you can just tell him that trust is earned through honest action. If he wants some then he knows what to do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you, to some extent - not to put it too severely. The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient for him. Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him. The reason I wrote to you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything. If you forgive anyone, I also forgive him. And what I have forgiven - if there was anything to forgive - I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake, in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes. (2Cor.2:5-11, NIV)

God Bless and Take Care,

C.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by shmaley:
 ....Restarting said: <blockquote>quote:<hr />Do you you ever wonder how long you can continue exposing yourself to the pain? Plan B is about limiting your pain and preserving whatever is left of your love and respect for your W, isn't it? <hr /></blockquote>Yes, I wonder this quite often and I try to take my temperature quite often. Orchid is always pushing my Plan B button as well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> She's been doing it on and off since about page 2.

As for the pain, well you know how that goes. I'm a tougher little **** than anyone thought, including myself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> The part I worry about the most is losing respect and Love for WW. That is where faith in God and Plan B comes in for me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

C. <hr /></blockquote>So I did find those buttons and they aren't broken! LOL!!! Just stuck in plan A a bit, eh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Of course plan B is about you but when she gives you the anger your timeframe may change a bit. While it is about you, it can be moved up or down as needed since your stance is affected by her actions and reactions. What you need to realize is that your actions and reactions need to be more stable. This means the benefit of plan B is not about losing respect for your W but losing the negative impact of the WS.

Remember you fell in love and married your W not the WS. The person you want back is your W not the WS. In fact, one day you will be angry that the WS has taken your W from you and you may demand she bring her back even if it is just for a little while.

Sending an {{{{mb hug}}}} your way.

Your MB sis,
L.

Thanks for the hug. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Orchid said: <blockquote>quote:<hr />What you need to realize is that your actions and reactions need to be more stable. <hr /></blockquote>What do you mean here? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

C.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by shmaley:
 Thanks for the hug. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Orchid said: <blockquote>quote:<hr />What you need to realize is that your actions and reactions need to be more stable. <hr /></blockquote>What do you mean here? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

C. <hr /></blockquote>Wow, that was quick..... R U sure you read it all. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

What I mean is that your timing of implementing plan B s/b when you as the BS are stable. You don't want to go to plan B while on an emotional low point. Remember you want your W back not the WS. If she insists on being a WS, then staying in plan A (after you have done your best plan A), then anymore plan A c/b detrimental to the BS.

A BS must know their boundaries and implement them when executing plan B. It is critical, hence the need t/b stable. At least as much as you c/b.

Hope this answers your question.

take care,
L.

I really am starting to feel a different attitude today. Just started thinking last night how W never would do the things I asked her to. Like give me a back rub, tell me when she was going to come home, work with me on the finances witout fighting. She bought me this great back massager a couple of years ago and said I got you this so I don't have to rub your back." In general, just a lack of affection/caring I guess. I have a really bad neck and back and when I was hurting she always just seemed unsympathetic. When I got to thinking about this last night it made me feel like ya know I could do a lot better. Even without the changes that I have made I could do better. I was a catch before the changes.

One of the reasons that I M my W was that I felt like she was a good person. I mean that was the #1 reason and very important to me. Honesty, Loyalty, Spirituality, and Dignity! All very important to me. She had me convinced that she had all those things. But for the last 3 years she has only demonstrated a fleeting Spirituality, and has been what I could only barely call a good person. More like she has been a very angry person. I would be too if I had been lying to my spouse for over 2 years.

Where is that darn button anyways!?!?

C.

shmaley,

I have read this whole thread, starting yesterday. I would like to say that your perseverance of your Plan A, your postive changes, everything, are admirable, and a huge inspiration to me in bettering myself. Reading threads by you, Bob Pure, and others, plus the sound advice and support that I have recieved from people here on MB has helped me so much on my emotional rollercoaster ride.

After reading your last post, I was reminded of my WW. She had me convinced that she was a nice person, and pulled it off quite well. She convinced me that she wasn't like her family members who have A's, who are of low morals and standards, and how she has strived in life to not be like them. And, like your WW, she started becoming mean over time, after the "honeymoon" period was over. I now question everything, from the beginning of my R with my WW. What was truth? What was lie? Will I ever know?

I am reminded about how my WW would not let me make any decisions, or have any input on decisions. If I pressed issues and she gave in, then she would be very irritable. After time, she was just irritable period. I dealt with it fine until the first A, and I stopped putting up with it. I would ask for simple favors that were never granted, and in turn, I stopped responding to favors she requested of me. She would always come home later than she said, leaving me to worry. It are these realizations, that help the logical and reasonable side of me to overcome the distraught and despairing emotional side. Like right now, my logical side has kicked in full force. Where as yesterday, my emotional side had me feeling down, and confused.

I know that we both are in similar, yet different situations. I don't mean to compare our WW's in any way. I'm just thinking the same things about the changes in my WW from the beginning of our R and M till now.

Dimmu

[ October 29, 2004, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: Dimmu ]

Morning,

Well seems like you are at a turning point. Remember the boundaries you used to get into your M are still important to you.

I M'd my H for the same reasons. We both went into the M with those reasons. Along the way I 'assumed' our values would stay the same. After all we weren't kids when we married so why did I need to worry? Well along the way, my H changed. Morphed into a WS with all the terror and pain more than I could have ever imagined. Thought this horror stuff was only in the movies.

As reality hit, it was hard to even watch movies....those special effects weren't a just in the movies, there were real but the endings took a lot more to resolve than a 3 hour movie or a 20 hour mini series.

When I was finally ready to see what was really going on, I went through the stages of grieving that a BS normally does. The range of emotions were far reaching. The pendelum swung from minute to minute. Love to hate, dispise to sadness, anger to hurt, eventually all that energy took it's toll. I learned that the sooner I made steps to make my recovery my priorty that it was within my power to do so. When I realized that my H in reality had displayed those unloving signs longer than the A itself, I realized that I deserved more.

Moving forward became a necessity. The difference is that like yourself, my WS wanted me to massage him also. Btw, the OW was a CMT by profession. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> But my limitations was that I had a nerve disorder that left my hands quite weak. It took all my energy to do my work, household and motherly duties. At the end of the day, I was left with little else. Neglect contributed to the A but in our case, it was the reverse of yours. I bought my H (at the time) what I thought would help him but he must have wanted more. Communication wasn't a working tool in our home (evidently).

Fastforward to today....... After all the learning and recovery truly started, the greatest thing we learned was to communicate. Understand each others contributions and limitations. Appreicate what we can and help out where it is needed. One is not better than the other. Teamwork is important. Trust is vital.

Sorry for rambling on a bit. Getting to the realization that we as the BS no longer see the WS as attractive, is the time when we move forward. It is sort of a turning point.

Remember you love your W, not the WS.

take care,
L.

Dimmu,

Thanks for the complement. I'm glad I've been able to help someone. I still believe our W's are good people. It's just too bad they have been abducted. We should call them the WC (Wayward Creature) instead of WS. It seems more fitting.

I think that I was doing the same kind of logical vs. emotional psycho mind trick as you are. It helps to calm the soul. I am bordering on anger and indignation also. But I am keeping a watchful eye as well should you. Do not let yourself get to far out in these feelings before you plan B. Cause as Jennifer C. told me if the BS goes into withdrawl you might as well sign the D papers.

Orchid,

Posting kind of early today. Did you get your computer together at your house?

To be fair to my W she would be in pain if she rubbed my back for very long. Being a violinist takes it's toll on your shoulders and her hands are weak as well. If what I needed didn't inconvience her then she was apt to do it. If it involved work then she would resist or resent.

Orchid said: <blockquote>quote:<hr /> Getting to the realization that we as the BS no longer see the WS as attractive, is the time when we move forward. It is sort of a turning point.

Remember you love your W, not the WS.<hr /></blockquote>Very adequately summed up. Keeping this feeling from growing out of control and attacking the W is what I worry about. Hopefully you will keep me in check. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

C.

Shmaley,

I like that WC!!! They sure act like it.

Sorry to hear that your W is suffering at such a young age. I used to play the violin but only while in grade school. My practice used to make my baby sister cry so I had a good excuse to stop. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I have used some products that have helped me and others who have muscular and nerve issues. While MB is not the place to advertise, if you want to know more you can e-mail me: mborchid2@yahoo.com. No pressure, just info. You decide. ok?

Glad to hear you got your spunk back! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

L.

Kick up to the top.

Whatcha up 2 there, Shmaley?!?!?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

L.

Not very happy tonight.

I went to my aunt and uncle's annual halloween chili dinner and get together . Grandparents , aunts, uncles, and cousins were all there.

As I was coming home I began to think about things. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I realize that family togetherness is a big EN for me. The last few days I have been just thinking more and more about how W always dissapointed me in the past with the way she distanced herself from the family. "I'm not like them", "I don't know what to say to them", "I can't relate to them", etc. She basically had no respect for any of my aunts or my mother for that matter because they were all housewives. Not that they don't all have college degrees because they do. One of my aunts is even a pharmacist! W just tended to look down on them for their family views and traditional wifely positions.

I always told W that I was not into that sort of thing and encouraged her to stay in her chosen career. Although I was not into moving anywhere to support it. This was my shortsightedness. But that is all water under the bridge now. I'm just feeling well better than having to put up with this sort of crap ya know...

And I know <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> that as soon as I decide it's over and serve her she will turn 180 and want me back. Then I'll be in another delimma. It's a catch 22 and I'm the schmuck that is gonna get it. I told her the first time that she cheated on me when we were dating that she "had started an endless cycle that would be hard to stop". I never imagined that it would continue into our M. She has hurt me and abused my good will for years now.I have a good attitude and hers is crap. I have a good idea and "I got the answer to everything". I want to know when she's going to be home "I'm being her Dad". Well IMO she is the one who is screwed up here! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> And she is the one who has the problem where in her whole family is going to hate her because she is throwing her whole life and values down the toliet!

I swear she is so stupid right now! That is the best word that I can think of to describe what I think of her right now. Stupid and nieve. No wonder her violin instructor used to scribble HUBRIS on her lessons in COLLEGE!! She is a child that refuses to grow up.

I told RM tonight that I used to try to change W when we first M. Because she was so youthful and it embarrased me. Then I decided that it would be a bad idea to change what it was that I had fallen in love with. I mean who wants to repress the one we love right? I saw a lot of beauty in her youthfullness. But now it has turned into ugly immaturity and pathetic arrogance. She is but a shadow. I want children but I don't intend to be M to one. How can I trust this person to raise my children? Will she abuse them as she has abused me? Will she treat them with contempt when they compromise her "good time"?

Part of the last few days feels good. Like a release of something but part of it is still meloncoly. I'm no sure what to do.....It's quite obvious that family functions are going to cause me to lose huge amounts of Love for W though. Should I consider avoiding them? This would be very sad. The way I feel right now though is that if she walked in right now I would just be here ya know? Totally indifferent.

Mister Taker is grumbling in his sleep and is thinking about getting up and cleaning house. He knows someone has been upsetting me and wants to flex some muscle.

Truthfully, If I were to Plan B right now how much would that help? I'm honestly totally separated from her right now with virtually no contact. She has made it this way. So my point is she is avoiding me presently wouldn't it seem wierd to send a Plan B letter stating that I am cutting her off? Ya know what I mean? Doesn't that seem well a little dumb. It's possible that she will talk to me tomorrow or the next day but I feel at a disadvantage because she is ignoring me. I continue to send her letters every week and I am going to call her 2-3 times a week. As well I will go to all her concert events. However, I feel more and more everyday like I AM WAY WAY TOO GOOD FOR HER!!!!

I need some intimacy!!! I need someone to hug and LOVE besides my dogs!!!(at least their loyal) GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

Stupid WW........................................

I am pretty sure that she has applied for and got a credit card. Bad News. I know this because they sent me terms in the mail. WW is real bad with Credit cards. She had $5,000.00 debt when I met her. With my advice she had most of it paid off by the time we got M. I probably need to check the limit on this card (if I can) and then proceed with a legal separation based on this move she has made. This really makes me mad. We always fought over finances.

Well, This is getting long and all you wanted to know was what was up. Sorry you got the big vent Orchid. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> But I know that you understand. And I really appreciate it. You are like an angel to me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Thank you for being an ear. I'm going to read for a while and go to bed.

C.

Morning Shmaley,

Venting is fine. That's what this board is for. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> MBers develope that tough but tender skin so we can handle.

You are seeing the angry side and your taker is kicking in. While your logic is correct how you feel and the actions you take is critical that you plan wisely. Hence a good plan B is vital.

As for implementing plan B when communication is already limited, it c/b a good thing. It may take a while but sooner or later if she really does see the value in your M and you, she will also feel the loss as she should while you are in plan B. If she doesn't than a plan B isn't lost but will minimize your pain as you exit the M.

See plan B is designed to protect the BS not the WS. If the WS can't see the loss, then separation and D is just a matter of time. In plan B, the BS learns to keep the improvements made and move forward.

JMHO,
L.

I see it very clearly now. I said it before but now it is crystal clear.

I have entirely disassociated W from WW. They are absolutley not one in the same. I want my W back and want absolutly NOTHING to do with WW. I feel very good about this. I still have Love for my W! But I have nothing but contempt for the WC (wayward creature). I will drive her out if I can. However, if nothing can retrieve her, when I am satisfied that my W is dead then I will have to move on.

C.

Shmaley,

You have reached a turning point. Painful but postive. With this outlook, you are now in a better position to look for signs of your W instead of being confused by the actions of the WS/WC. When your W does decide to return, there are still issues to resolve.

Family is a strong bonding unit. Not one to be discarded lightly. You have love for family and for some reason your W does not share the same values. This is critical.

In time, she may get to there where you in her values. 'Til then, continue to keep your values close to your heart. It w/b your protection.

Aloha,
L.

What is making me feel so bad? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I just can't figure it out. Just feeling helpless again I guess. Feel like I could have an anxiety attack sometime soon. Pictures have been bugging me today more than usual. And I didn't get to do my workout that I always do on Tuesday.

I took the day off work today so that I could vote, go to IC, talk to my Grandparents, and workout. Well, I voted and went to IC. Nothing else got done. Just finished a rehearsal with my band and it went pretty well. But I still feel depressed. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I know that I need to call WW a couple of times a week but I really don't want to. I cringe just thinking about it. I can't stand her. Not that I ever get to talk to her when I call.....Always a message.....I am so much better than this.....I do not deserve to be treated this way.......She is stupid......But it doesn't really matter does it.....None of it does.......Just a bunch of crap......*sigh*.......

Tried to call my confidant but she had gone to bed early. RM is here and I will talk to her after her friend leaves. Guess I'll just read some for now.

C.

Well, I spoke to my Grandparents (father's side) last night. Let them know all that was going on. I am very fortunate to have so much family all living close together. They were sad and dissapointed with WW. However, they said that they "Sure Love her a lot and hope that she comes back". Amazing isn't it.?! Lots of forgivness that WW would never believe that anyone would have given her.

In my next letter I will tell WW what they said when I told them. They did not say a single bad word towards her. They also said that they would pray for her. Grandma even asked what I wanted to do about Christmas, if they should buy gifts for her. Most people would have just written her off. See I told you guys God has been favoring me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

God Bless

C.

WW,

Sitting up late tonight thinking. I heard you did well in the concerto aria competition. Glad to hear that you are doing some good things. How is everything else at school? How are your lessons going?

Last Wednesday I went over to my Grandparents house to talk to them about everything that has been going on. They were saddened and disappointed by what I told them. But I thought that you should hear what they had to say. Grandpa said â€œI sure love her a lot and we hope that she comes home.â€ He told me that he will be praying for you. Grandma said that she has really missed you. Iâ€™ll have to say I did not expect these responses. We are truly blessed to have family with the capacity to forgive like this. I was more afraid of telling them than anyone else.

Recently, I have been coming to terms with some deep rooted issues of mine. I feel that Sistersâ€™ life and passing had more of an effect on me than I have been able to understand until now. During the years that we were struggling with her decline I needed to display more emotion than I was capable of. I couldnâ€™t keep up so I just shut down. My only protection was to stop any displays of emotion. How many times have you seen me cry? In eight years I think that you could count them on one hand right? By the time that she passed the damage was already done. That is why I couldnâ€™t cry real tears on the night that she passed away. Do you know what it feels like when you canâ€™t cry even though youâ€™re hurting to the core?

I hope that you are learning about yourself as well during our time apart. Do you know what has shaped you into the person you have become today? Iâ€™ve copied a verse for you from my studies. This verse really spoke to me when I first read it. I hope that it speaks to you also.

Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

2Corinthians (4:16-18, NIV)

With my Love,

C.

Whatdayathink?!!???!!

C.

scmaly (C)
Pretty intense.

Very from your heart.

It will probably make her feel guilty.

You are quite a guy.

I think I love you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Rachel

Shmaley,

Once again your writing really reaches into the depths of a sane person. Very moving indeed.

Hope it has a positive effect on the WS. Though it may take a while to see any real reaction.

Please have patience. You aren't wasting your words, they just have to go through a lot of dense fog.

take care,
L.

MYOSS,

LOL...Sorry but I'm not available. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Thank you for the kind words.

Orchid,

Where have you been? I've missed you... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I'm just really needy right now. Went to pick up RM at the school and I saw WW's car. It almost gave me a panic attack. I don't think that my meds are working right anymore. It was pretty mild but reminded me of those first days. With this in mind I can really appreciate how Plan B will be a safer place.

I've been thinking a lot about family and how I really want one nowdays. Children are a must for me. This I am certain about now. Before I could have gone either way but not now. I want so much to be normal again. Whatever that is??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Feeling alright but kinda touch and go....know what I mean??....like fragile maybe. Probably the meds.

Thanks for introducing me to DJ. He lives only about 50min from me. Actually, one of WW's orchestra gigs is in his town. He has assured me that he can let me know exactly all the wrong things to do! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I think he's actually serious though.

Ya know, I did stay up real late last night so maybe my meds are fine. I gotta stop doing that....I just love those Lattes though. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

God Bless you guys

C.

Shmaley,

U know I am right here......what 5000 miles away? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I stopped by my cousin's this morning to check up on you and do some work. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I know those panic attack feelings. They will lessen with time but you do well to be aware they can spring on you at any time. Now don't be scared just be aware.

Learn to do your deep breathing exercises. They worked for me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Take care of yourself, ok? No tying yourself up in knots. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> BS tend to get real wound up with this A stuff. Makes one real tense with lots of adrenaline flowing. Our bodies can handle this for a while but not forever. Eventually one's body revolts and says....'no more, stop this intense pain stuff.' Or something like that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Glad you got in contact with DJ. It is always helpful to get some perspective from others who are closer. I don't him real well but hope u 2 get together sometime.

Now I gotta go and run to my mom's house. Gonna try t/b a good daughter, ya know? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Aloha,
L.

You know I've been reading your thread a bit tonight and I wanted to say something that might not be very MB like but Shmaley, you are so young, you have no children and in one of your later posts you even said yourself she was never affectionate or very supportive.

Why do you want her back? Think very honestly about this. If it is about the failure/ego thing you need to look at that. If it is about the vows you made to her, look at that too. If it is a religious thing, look at that.

If you end up going end to plan B, and it looks like you will make sure what it is you want and need from your partner in life.

It may be that this is your opportunity to look very closely at who you have become through all this and what you will desire and expect from a wife.

Can she, is she capable of fulfilling those things? Is she capable of accepting from you the things you need to give?

Recovery is harder than where you are now, from what I am reading on here, and if you want children, affection, passion & friendship from your mate, maybe you need to tadk a very hard honest look if you can have that with her.

There are a lot of very good, beautiful, faithful & passionate women out there who would make good moms and life partners in this world.

Don't settle for less, especially if you see children in your future.

I don't want to discourage you from hanging on and working to get her back, but I don't want to see you sell yourself short either, and possibly get less than what you need from a wife.

You are very young and don't have that many years, or finances invested nor do you have children. That should weigh into the factor, IMHO.

[ November 06, 2004, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: weaver ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />you even said yourself she was never affectionate or very supportive. <hr /></blockquote>She started to grow away from me after her first A. But she never fully accepted us as the union of one. I actually said in general, just a lack of affection/caring I guess. I have a really bad neck and back and when I was hurting she always just seemed unsympathetic. Can't honestly say never even by a longshot. However, she has continually pressed on with independent behaviors since the first year after our M.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Why do you want her back? Think very honestly about this. If it is about the failure/ego thing you need to look at that. If it is about the vows you made to her, look at that too. If it is a religious thing, look at that. <hr /></blockquote>Excellent points and questions! It is about failure some. And my vows are MORE important to me now than ever. I guess more now because I see their worth much more clearly now. Vows are the religious thing to me. God, family, me, and friends. I made a promise in front of all of them.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />It may be that this is your opportunity to look very closely at who you have become through all this and what you will desire and expect from a wife.

Can she, is she capable of fulfilling those things? Is she capable of accepting from you the things you need to give? <hr /></blockquote>Also a great points! Yes, I have been thinking about this since those recent posts. I've really been wondering "Just what is Gods will here"? And "did he put me in this position to save me a life of dissapointment"? I just don't know yet. But my ear is to the ground and I am praying to Him to help it be clear to me. Trust in Him and all other things will work themselves out. If WW is not capable of being the mother that I need then He will let me know. Unless he has another plan. And if that is so I will have to accept that as well. Much easier said than done. All points considered I am keeping my best interests at heart. I'm glad you are too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Recovery is harder than where you are now, from what I am reading on here, and if you want children, affection, passion & friendship from your mate, maybe you need to tadk a very hard honest look if you can have that with her. <hr /></blockquote>What I have with WW is no good. What I could have with my W is what I am focused on. But that is very idealistic of me and I realize that. One of the things that bugs me a lot is our SF. It has never been good and will take lots of work to fix. It can be fixed but lots of work by both of us. The other things I know she is capable of.

However, you have a point here that really strikes home with me. All in all since I have known her now she has cheated on me 4 times in 8 years. twice while we were dating and twice while we were M. And of course the abandonment. *sigh* Sometimes I want to give up. And lately I have really had a wandering eye. Very sad. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Sad because I don't want to do these things. Not right now. I know that I must be careful or I will be staring at another A in the mirror. *sigh*

<blockquote>quote:<hr />There are a lot of very good, beautiful, faithful & passionate women out there who would make good moms and life partners in this world.

Don't settle for less, especially if you see children in your future. <hr /></blockquote>Yeah, I agree. This makes me anxious. I can't imagine not dating for a year! I mean, I really hate dating but I have my EN's to deal with. I won't settle for less than an affair proof M!

Your post is in good taste and I really appreciate your concern. Please keep posting and reading because I enjoy your views and points.

God Bless,

C.

It's tough to be in the shoes of a BS I know. So many things are left in your hands to deal with, not the least of which is deciding what is the right thing to do for both of you.

I am a single mother of my 10 year old daughter, and although she is happy with a good life and relationship with both her dad and I, she still wishes we were together. And the funny thing is we split up before she was born.

I thought I could give her a better life without him living with us, because he was a musician and had an affair when I was pregnant. I didn't want to spend my life worried about all his fans, nor did I want her to grow up with fighting and distrust.

My mom told me it would be very lonely to be a single parent, and she was right. Of course at the time my parents and grandma were still alive so I had all the help and support I needed. They all died within 8 months of each other when my little girl was 4. Suddenly I truely was alone to take care of her (although her dad is a good dad now to her).

What I'm saying is, if you want children Scmaley look for someone who will be a good mother and wife. Maybe she is and can be, but her past record is not very promising.

Just wanted to talk about the other side some with you, but I can tell from your reply to me you have your head on straight.

Hang in there guy, happiness is not very far away. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

edited because I got my ws/bs mixed up a bit <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

[ November 06, 2004, 07:08 PM: Message edited by: weaver ]

So sorry to hear about your losses. That is very sad to hear. Sounds like you are doing a good job with your D though. She will have her head on straight if she takes after you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

If WW pulls up out of her nose dive that will only be the beginning. I realize this. But with the insight I have learned through MB we could have a great M. One better than the M that we thought we would have when we got M. But much has yet to be revealed. Life is good even when it is bad. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the Glory of God. Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

Romans (5:1-5, NIV)

Have a great weekend and God Bless

C.

[ November 06, 2004, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: shmaley ]

That is a great verse from Romans! And how true it is.

You are right, maybe God's grace will find her in answer to your prayers.

You're right about having the tools and the insight to have a great marriage. I'll pray that her eyes be opened too. If that is your desire.

I have been reading John Eldridge books lately and in one he talks about Jesus and our desires. About how when Jesus came upon the crippled man laying in front of the place where everyone went to get their miracles, he had to ask the crippled man, "what is it you desire?", because although it should have been obvious, the crippled mans spirit was broke from all those years of being dropped off each morning by relatives in front of the miracle place, and then completely ignored, he didn't even remember what it was he wanted from God.

Well I'm not very good at Bible stories, but what Jesus was teaching the people that day was, I can't give you your desire, if you don't even know what that desire is!

Nice talking to you tonight Shmaley. Guess I better drag myself of the 'puter and do something. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I think that I should get my last exposures done and RUN not walk for plan B

Found out today that at least 2 of WW and supposedly my friends paid to bring OM here last weekend. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

This has irritated me a little. I am contemplating what I shall do for their punishment. ?????? Before I knew about this I had invited them over to eat a dinner that I was going to cook. I think that I will leave that offer open and have a little discussion with them after the main course.

Maybe we will have some dinner with them. Show them some of the things that I have written to WW and talk a little. Then after they give me the pat on the back and tell me how sorry that they are I will announce what I know. Then I will give them one chance to explain themselves. After that I believe that they will be relieved of any hope of my friendship ever gracing them again. I should make them some ex-lax chocolate chip cookies...LOL Idiots what is wrong with people these days. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Couple of real freaks. Dirty dirty enablers.

I know this info because of a GOOD friend of mine that was approached by one of them to pitch in money to bring OM here. I'm really glad that I didn't know that he was here when he was. This is one of those HUGE WITHDRAWLS!!! And I mean Big! WHO DOES SHE THINK THAT SHE IS BRINGING HIM TO MY TOWN!!!

Growing more indifferent to our M all the time. I don't hate her yet but I have about zero respect left for her. This is not temporary insanity. This is just plain hateful! WW is a freak and I think that she deserves what ever she gets at this point. SHE BROUGHT HIM HERE!!! IF I EVER SEE HIM IT WILL BE VERY BAD. There is noway that I will be able to control myself. None.

This is the stuff mini-series are made out of huh...

Dirty dirty betrayers! I must forgive them but I will not forget their actions.

C.

Shmaley,

I am truly sorry this happened. See what a WS is capable of? Manipulation seems to be par for the course. At least you know it is not just you she wants to involve in the A, even friends.

Well hold off on the ex-lax stuff but if you can stomach the convo w/dinner, it maybe to your benefit. Keep barf bags near by.....maybe they won't be able to hold their guilt down.

Solicating $$ for OM? What a catch. He can't even afford his own way. U s/b proud Shmaley. Look for the lemonade. It's there.

Can RM work with you on a plan? Put out your feelers and find out who and how much were involved in this plot.

Just to share an experience, my cousin's sister (yea my cousin also but not as close to this other cousin - I'll refer to her as cousin B), well counsin B left her BF for one of his co-workers. Her sister has been trying to help both but both the WS and BS are being stupid right now. Anyway, I helped where I could but last night, my 1st cousin's son was spending the evening with cousin B. Cousin B was suppose to take newphew to the movies to see The Incredibles. My son wanted to see it also, so I offered to hoin up with Cousin B and nephew. So far sooo good? Hm.... I called and then found out that cousin B & nephew were with OM. YUCK!!! My son wanted to go to the movies but this cousin B used her own nephew to go out with OM!! I was totally turned off. Not before I contacted 1st cousin and let her know. Had already made dinner plans with cousin B but reneged since I couldn't stomach it (so see you are the better person - <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). Son and I went to see the movie on our own. I will have a talk with her later.

Anyway, you take care ok? Don't do anything you'll regret. Sending some MB ammo your way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

L.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Well hold off on the ex-lax stuff but if you can stomach the convo w/dinner, it maybe to your benefit. Keep barf bags near by.....maybe they won't be able to hold their guilt down. <hr /></blockquote>No cookies?!!
Awww... you never let me have any fun;).... As for the dinner, I will probably make alfredo and extra rich with lots and lots of parmasean so their stomaches will turn turn turn..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Solicating $$ for OM? What a catch. He can't even afford his own way. U s/b proud Shmaley. Look for the lemonade. It's there. <hr /></blockquote>Yeah..........Laooo Saher...........LOOSER!!!

Cream of the loser crop. WW sure knows how to pick em eh? Bi-sexual, small, and a looser. All these things I know for a fact. Heard all but the loser part from WW in counseling.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Can RM work with you on a plan? Put out your feelers and find out who and how much were involved in this plot. <hr /></blockquote>Feelers already extended Captain! It is being worked on as we speak. I will know who was involved and they will have my wrath. Revenge is best served cold don't you think? I will get them all at the same time so that none of them can warn each other.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Don't do anything you'll regret. <hr /></blockquote>I haven't yet and don't intend to. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

I am very contemplating and obviously unlike WW a thinker. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

C.

Very good IC session today! I will post about it tomorrow when I have had a chance to think about it a little more. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Lots of Plan B stuff to start working out this week. I've got an appt with Jennifer C. on Tues. next week so I will start to discuss all the details with her then. As well, I will make sure that she agrees that I am ready to go into Plan B. Right now, I don't really see any other way though. I'm looking forward to it actually. Especially the part after all WW's pictures are down. Right now there is too many of them up and it bugs me.

I think a lot about finding someone else right now. Makes me feel a little guilty but I think that I am just trying to search for a place where I can know that I will not be hurting anymore. I WILL NOT BREAK MY VOWS! And I will be watching for those that wil try to take advantage of my situation. I want a healthy relationship more than I want a couple of EN's satisfied. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

More later....

C.

Yesterday at my IC appt. we talked about several issues.

I have been feeling more and more like I just want to move on. I know that I am above this treatment. However, I can't help but feel a little guilty for wanting to leave my W. (that sounds crazy huh) But I feel guilt for thinking about finding someone else to spend the rest of my life with. And it is hard to have these feelings and at the same time leave that little bit of room and hope for reconciliation. But just thinking about moveing on and finding someone else is very exciting to me. My interpretation of this is that I am excited about the prospect of feeling happy again. And not hurting all the time sounds real good too. My IC agreed with this.

Fantasizing about various things. Dealing with agression towards OM, Betraying friends, and WW. In the event that I learn that OM is in town I promised that I would call my IC before I had any confrontation with OM. As well we came up with the plan to let my support group know that I do not want to know if OM is in town. Mentally if I see him right now I can't really imagine being able to control myself. So just taking some safety precautions. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Growth through this process. I said that I felt like I have done what any one else would do as far as growth and healing. But he told me that not every one recovers from this sort of thing. Some people spend their lives letting it get them down. And some people end it all. Basically, I realize it could be worse and know that I am doing well.

He suggested that I should try to allow myself to take up the slack for what my childhood couldn't. He said that I dealt really well with all that went on but to put the burden where it could be handled better. This makes a lot of sense to me.

There was probably more but I don't recall all of it right now.

C.

[ November 09, 2004, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: shmaley ]

Shmaley,

Good to hear from you. Glad the IC session went well and you are not the threat to yourself. As for the OM, well he always needs to look over his shoulder.

I am quite short. For those who have actually had to endure meeting me, I am a shortie. Yet the OW who is 5'4" claimed she was afraid of me (4'10" - on a tall day - LOL!!!). Yea right, maybe physically I can't pound her in the ground but there are other ways. Well..... maybe physically I could - LOL!!! But I choose not to. I choose to allow life to do the pounding. I even learned how to cause LBs between the WS and OP without lifting a finger. Talk about power and control!!!!! When the OW made that statement about being afraid of me (via the WS), I told the WS to relay to the OW that if felt that need, she needed to do so. Loved the fact that she claimed t/b scared. Wanted to go up to her and say BOO U boob! LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> But I am better than that. Making her live in a state of doubt had a much better and long lasting effect. Maybe she has a crimp in her neck from all that looking over her shoulder. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

L.

Feeling a little sad today. Not as bad as times before. This whole thing seems to be constantly progressing and regressing for me. It's like an evil vortex. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Everytime I bounce back with a little different perspective on things. I think that I am still growing though. Continuing to progress has been the best thing for me. I do not hate WW but feel less and less for her. It is sad as a whole.....The more people I tell the more she just looks crazy and depraved. And I really haven't been telling everyone about this.

When I got home today there was a note in the door. Said something like "we were in the neighborhood stopped by and missed you. We miss you......signed Friend and D. Well this is a M friend of ours that WW has obviously not told about this. SO....I called her and told her what was up. She has been in this same situation herself and so we talked for a little while. She was left with two children. This is why WW did not call her to say what was up. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> You can't see the truth when you hide your eyes. The truth hurts but it can heal you too.

C.

Just went through a three or four day spot of not wanting anything to do with WW. Really to the point that I could care less about reconciliation. But I called her just now and I know that I still have some Love left. She didn't answer as usual so I left a message. I do want her still but I am not being eat up inside by it anymore. Much better place to be. I'm looking forward to my IC with Jennifer C. so that I can get some direction on how to proceed with Plan B.

The rollercoaster continues.......

C.

Shmaley,

The roller coaster's track go up and down. YUCK!!!

What positive points come out from your call/message to the WS? Hard piece of reality to face if it doesn't leave you with a pleasant result. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Good to hear you are keeping your appt w/Jennifer C. Now that's a positive step.

So what did this friend say when you gave her the info?

take care,
L.

I call WW because Jennifer C. said I should contact her 2-3 times a week. I don't ask her to call back because I know I'll be upset when she doesn't. She also noticed last time that I called and didn't ask her to call back. Also it should have a MORE pronounced effect on her when I go to Plan B if all of a sudden there is no more letters and no more calls. Says I really mean it.

Our friend said that she was sorry to hear it and couldn't believe that our friends had brought OM here. Said that she had been in a similar situation herself but didn' go into details. She told me that I was always welcome at their house and that they hoped that I would come by sometime. Wanted to know all the details of what had happened and so on.

C.

Sounds like you are doing the right thing but it hurts none the less.

Be safe.

L.

As I bounce back from my short bout with depression all I can think about is moving on. I believe that if WW came back I would still be up for working on our M. However, with as little contact as I will have with WW once Plan B goes into effect (all pictures are down and don't have to think about her or anything to do with her 98% of the time) I am curious what emotional changes are going to occur. And with as much water that has gone under the bridge I just want some resolve one way or another. This is how I feel today.

RM said that she would take all the pictures down when I was ready. She'll tell me what sizes to print and I will make all new ones the don't have WW in them. I wonder what she will think when she comes over and there is not one single image of her up in the house!?!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I'd like to be a fly on the wall when that happens. Unless she were to cry. I can't take seeing that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Crazy isn't it!!! I think I'd still love her even if she chopped my leg off. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I never would have imagined that she would have betrayed me like this. I mean I would have stepped out in front of a truck for her no regrets and she does this to me. wow.

I was thinking that I would send all of her pictures and her wedding dress to her. But that would probably be mean. It will probably be better if I just store them in a safe place and wait until it is appropriate to give them to her if that day comes. The thing is I know that the decision has been handed to me. It is mine for the making. And rightfully so because I am the only one making rational decisions at this point anyways.

C.

Shmaley,

Hard times require hard measures. You do have support and glad your RM is there to help you through.

Even things of sentimental value can be of support. Things to bring closure. For me I almost threw away our wedding pictures. Had them all bagged up and even put them in the garbage can. Pulled them out at the last minute.

For me closure had to come from some sentimental item. As painful as it was, I cut up my custom made wedding dress and kept the bow as a momento. Sounds cruel but for some reason, it brought closure. My marriage has been marred by the A, no forgetting that, just like I can't recover my dress. Yet, somehow it brought relief to do so, in a way I can't describe. My husband watched while I did it in tears. He gave me my space because that is what I asked for. It was what I felt I needed to do for me. For my healing. I don't expect everyone to agree or even understand it. Heck, I can't completely explain it. It was like I gave up something of value but not enough to throw away my M or family for. My priorities changed. While I always wanted to hand down my wedding dressing to either my daughter or DIL, I now know I can't. But when I have one, I can give them something else of equal value. Priorities change but the values stay the same. Does this make sense?

Sorry for the long post.

Hope you have a nice weekend.

L.

Found out WW is on birth control now. She's also telling people that she is not available because she is seeing someone. I can see she must be turning over a new leaf. Sounds like she's really a faithful mate now days. Her and OM will probably have a great R. Hey maybe they'll get M! They definitly deserve each other.

I'm sure that she will have no problems adjusting to living in Chicago on two artists salarys'. I mean look at the hovel she left behind. Only a 2700 sq. ft. house with wood floors, lots of natural slate I installed myself, a deck, and 5 person outdoor hottub. Actually, I'm just sure that they will be able to find better in Chicago isn't everything cheaper there? If they don't have enough money then all of those great friends (all under 23yrs. old) that helped talk her into this will surely loan her the money to upgrade homes in Chicago. What am I saying they are such good friends they will probably just give the money to those two lovebirds. Wow, you know I am feeling much better about this whole thing.

If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you, to some extent - not to put it too severely. The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient for him. Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him. The reason I wrote to you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything. If you forgive anyone, I also forgive him. And what I have forgiven - if there was anything to forgive - I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake, in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes.

(2Cor.2:5-11, NIV)

I'm not always in control. Sometimes I have to be carried. But His hands are quite able don't you think?

C.

By her own actions, the WS is admitting to the adultery. Can't take that back.

As to their living in a hovel....some WS and OPs think living on the streets beats a warm and loving family home. While the rest of the world sees their foolishness, the A participants prance around thinking they are wearing the 'emperor's new clothes'. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Just be glad you have your santity and are not prancing around carrying their real clothes ($$ and other of life's necessities). Imagine if she does bring another life in this world, what type of mother or lifestyle will this child be subjected to? One that a WS and child WILL have regrets on.......just a matter of when.

Repentance is an act that can deserve forgiveness. Anything less doesn't qualify. Forgiveness from the A does include the faithful spouse to forgive, not just God. It is up to the faithful spouse, not the other way around.

I hear you hurt and pain and know this is what you must feel at this time. It will help you be stronger and move forward better.

take care,
L.

I think I might be crashing.

I have a meeting with Jennifer C. tonight but I ddon't know if I am still interested in making this work anymore. Keep thinking I don't want to bail out before Plan B and all. But everytime I start to think about what kind of effect it will have on WW it is followed by a question of whether I even care if she is sorry or not. It still makes me sad that my M is being destroyed but I don't know that I am interested in trying to save it anymore. What I mean to say is I find myself hopeing that she doesn't come back. Because I think that she is a very shortsighted, stupid, and arrogant person and I can no longer respect her because of that. This causes me to actually feel a little relieved that it seems like she won't come back. Then I get the regret that I have not implemented my Plan B yet with the rest of my exposures. And round and round same thing over and over.

I'll go through with Plan B I guess but I am starting to not really feel right about what the letter says. Cause I don't really want her. I guess I should wait this feeling out a little. If she comes back I can always D her but this is my only chance to save my M if I decide to.

C.

Jennifer C. said I had done very well. And that it was definitly time for Plan B. Right now I am struggling with the mind set that has started to grip me. Just kind of wanting to move on, not wanting to wait. Mr. Taker is jumping up and down and beating on the walls, telling me that this whole thing stinks is bad deal blah blah blah.... It's just tough not getting any EN's satisfied you know? I should probably take a much closer look at exactly what my EN's are and methodically pick people that are safe for me to satisfy them through.

Right now I am going nuts and I'm just starting my BIG wait. Which brings me to the question what does an unavailable single male with no children do to have fun or relax??? I don't know who that person is or how they live. And I can't go back to who I was when I was single and searching!?!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

C.

Yea, it's my birthday!!!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Hey Shmaley,

I posted a separate thread looking for you. Didn't know you were out celebrating getting a year older!!! LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

My son and I along with H just got a year older also....wait.... son and H got a year older, at my age I get to get a year younger!!! LOL!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Plan B will bring you some relief though she isn't communicating anyway. When she sees you moving forward it may shake her world. It may.

As for how to keep you busy, well there are a lot of suggestions. U R a talented guy, get out there and share that talent. Young ones s/b available to be introduced to your field of specialization. It is a piece our educational system has put on the back burner for many years and it s/b rekindled since it s/b a integral part of our lives. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I am sure if you put your mind to work, you will be kept very busy. ok? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

take care,
L.

Hey everybody.

Just thought I'd give a little update. Been about 10 days since my last post. A record for me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

I sent off my Plan B letter. One to WW one to OM and one to the IL's. The IL's responded back quickly. MIL said that she told FIL to take down all of WW's pictures just a couple of days before. MIL says that she refuses to be hurt anymore by WW's actions. WW is flying there for Christmas but is not on speaking terms with MIL and very strained terms with FIL right now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Letters also went out to OM's parents asking for their support. I also sent a picture of WW and I with MIL and FIL. We will see soon enough what effect that will have if any. WW is in Chicago right now and lied to her parents about that also. I told them the truth and also told them about OM's visit here. MIL was pretty pissed to say the least. However, as I said she is not on speaking terms with WW right now anyways. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I sent all these letters to AD my other family confidant on WW's side. I asked AD to share them with the grandparents so that they would know more. They have really been struggling with all of this and need all the info they can get. I know that they are in such a struggle to understand right now and anything that I can give them will help them build their end resolve.

I collared one of the betrayers tonight and gave her a letter that I had her read in front of me. It said:

Betrayer,

I was shocked and deeply saddened to discover that you were involved in paying for a plane ticket to bring my wife's lover to town. It is difficult for me to understand why you would do such a thing. I thought of you as my friend and a friend of myself and WWâ€™s marriage.

Betrayer, I want you to know that I have forgiven you for your actions even though I do not understand them. However, it is apparant to me that you are neither my friend or the good person that I thought you were. Please do not call me ever again as I cannot afford to have you in my life or my home.

C.

She took it better than I expected knowing her personality as I do. I felt really really bad doing it but it was my obligation. Bad deeds should not go unpunished and I will not be apart of sheltering her from her own reality. But it hurt....a lot. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Besides that I spoke with a mutual friend of ours tonight and told him what was up. Got a lot of support that was helpful. He had been wondering why WW had not been returning his communications. he told me to call him ANYTIME of day or night. He is a true blue friend I think. It is so hard to decide who to trust nowadays. There are definitely sides to this thing. Newbies beware!!! The earlier you realize this the better off you will be. There will be pinch hitters along the way too so watch out. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Well, it's 3:00am here and I'm about ready to take a jog around the block....Still trying to wind down from the betrayer confrontation. I'll be around later for updates.

God Bless

C.

Happy belated Bday...

Good to see you doing fine. Plan B will be good for you. Dont worry about it much. It will be quite liberating once you get the hang of plan ME...take care

[ November 27, 2004, 04:06 AM: Message edited by: zizzycool ]

Update:

Well, those letters hit their mark. Heard about it through the grapevine. OM's mother is in a nursing home with MS. I haven't been contacted by her but I'm sure the news didn't make her happy. It wasn't my intent to burden an already burdened soul but I do not feel any guilt. That is all on WW and OM. OM's step-father whom he hadn't seen since 97' didn't call either. But I heard that OM was real confused as to how I got an address that he didn't even have. [censored]. I hope he's looking over his shoulder and worrying.

And about WW I don't really talk about her at all and if I think of her in conversation I suppress it. I can't afford those sorts of things. I have more anger towards her now and if I were to continue speaking about her and having to explain her actions to others it would just build me into a rage. I'm still interested in what is happening but I dread the times I have to talk about it. Did a little bit of talking about her tonight and it just made me feel worse. She has forced me into the role of a parent time and time again and it's just rediculous. I still struggle to percieve how someone can remain so confused for so long.

And as far an my marriage goes.....Well, most of the time 99% I want to be done with it. I really wish it was over. I wish I could move on and date and find someone else etc.... But married people don't date do they. At least this one doesn't. Whenever someone suggests to me that I date right now I just want to treat them like Moe always treated Larry or Curly. They truly don't understand anything. So in a way this inhibits me from moving forward for a divorce because I don't want to feel like I am doing it out of selfish
(emotional needs) reasons. I would still try to work things out if she came back but I really hope she doesn't. I can do better and it will be a huge struggle when I have already endured a lot. And whose to say it won't happen all over again. It would be different the second time but still painful.

So in summary I really wish this was over with. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> SO I COULD GET ON WITH THE GOOD PART OF MY LIFE THAT IS LEFT.

Well, I don't have anything positive or constructive left to say about this so G'night and God Bless.

C.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I wish I could move on and date and find someone else etc.... But married people don't date do they. At least this one doesn't. <hr /></blockquote>Right there with you!

I'll read your post later on, it was hard for me to find this thread back.

Ok, take care