Thanks for the hug. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Orchid said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What you need to realize is that your actions and reactions need to be more stable. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What do you mean here? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

C.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by shmaley:
<strong> Thanks for the hug. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Orchid said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What you need to realize is that your actions and reactions need to be more stable. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What do you mean here? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

C. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow, that was quick..... R U sure you read it all. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

What I mean is that your timing of implementing plan B s/b when you as the BS are stable. You don't want to go to plan B while on an emotional low point. Remember you want your W back not the WS. If she insists on being a WS, then staying in plan A (after you have done your best plan A), then anymore plan A c/b detrimental to the BS.

A BS must know their boundaries and implement them when executing plan B. It is critical, hence the need t/b stable. At least as much as you c/b.

Hope this answers your question.

take care,
L.

I really am starting to feel a different attitude today. Just started thinking last night how W never would do the things I asked her to. Like give me a back rub, tell me when she was going to come home, work with me on the finances witout fighting. She bought me this great back massager a couple of years ago and said I got you this so I don't have to rub your back." In general, just a lack of affection/caring I guess. I have a really bad neck and back and when I was hurting she always just seemed unsympathetic. When I got to thinking about this last night it made me feel like ya know I could do a lot better. Even without the changes that I have made I could do better. I was a catch before the changes.

One of the reasons that I M my W was that I felt like she was a good person. I mean that was the #1 reason and very important to me. Honesty, Loyalty, Spirituality, and Dignity! All very important to me. She had me convinced that she had all those things. But for the last 3 years she has only demonstrated a fleeting Spirituality, and has been what I could only barely call a good person. More like she has been a very angry person. I would be too if I had been lying to my spouse for over 2 years.

Where is that darn button anyways!?!?

C.

shmaley,

I have read this whole thread, starting yesterday. I would like to say that your perseverance of your Plan A, your postive changes, everything, are admirable, and a huge inspiration to me in bettering myself. Reading threads by you, Bob Pure, and others, plus the sound advice and support that I have recieved from people here on MB has helped me so much on my emotional rollercoaster ride.

After reading your last post, I was reminded of my WW. She had me convinced that she was a nice person, and pulled it off quite well. She convinced me that she wasn't like her family members who have A's, who are of low morals and standards, and how she has strived in life to not be like them. And, like your WW, she started becoming mean over time, after the "honeymoon" period was over. I now question everything, from the beginning of my R with my WW. What was truth? What was lie? Will I ever know?

I am reminded about how my WW would not let me make any decisions, or have any input on decisions. If I pressed issues and she gave in, then she would be very irritable. After time, she was just irritable period. I dealt with it fine until the first A, and I stopped putting up with it. I would ask for simple favors that were never granted, and in turn, I stopped responding to favors she requested of me. She would always come home later than she said, leaving me to worry. It are these realizations, that help the logical and reasonable side of me to overcome the distraught and despairing emotional side. Like right now, my logical side has kicked in full force. Where as yesterday, my emotional side had me feeling down, and confused.

I know that we both are in similar, yet different situations. I don't mean to compare our WW's in any way. I'm just thinking the same things about the changes in my WW from the beginning of our R and M till now.

Dimmu

<small>[ October 29, 2004, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: Dimmu ]</small>

Morning,

Well seems like you are at a turning point. Remember the boundaries you used to get into your M are still important to you.

I M'd my H for the same reasons. We both went into the M with those reasons. Along the way I 'assumed' our values would stay the same. After all we weren't kids when we married so why did I need to worry? Well along the way, my H changed. Morphed into a WS with all the terror and pain more than I could have ever imagined. Thought this horror stuff was only in the movies.

As reality hit, it was hard to even watch movies....those special effects weren't a just in the movies, there were real but the endings took a lot more to resolve than a 3 hour movie or a 20 hour mini series.

When I was finally ready to see what was really going on, I went through the stages of grieving that a BS normally does. The range of emotions were far reaching. The pendelum swung from minute to minute. Love to hate, dispise to sadness, anger to hurt, eventually all that energy took it's toll. I learned that the sooner I made steps to make my recovery my priorty that it was within my power to do so. When I realized that my H in reality had displayed those unloving signs longer than the A itself, I realized that I deserved more.

Moving forward became a necessity. The difference is that like yourself, my WS wanted me to massage him also. Btw, the OW was a CMT by profession. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> But my limitations was that I had a nerve disorder that left my hands quite weak. It took all my energy to do my work, household and motherly duties. At the end of the day, I was left with little else. Neglect contributed to the A but in our case, it was the reverse of yours. I bought my H (at the time) what I thought would help him but he must have wanted more. Communication wasn't a working tool in our home (evidently).

Fastforward to today....... After all the learning and recovery truly started, the greatest thing we learned was to communicate. Understand each others contributions and limitations. Appreicate what we can and help out where it is needed. One is not better than the other. Teamwork is important. Trust is vital.

Sorry for rambling on a bit. Getting to the realization that we as the BS no longer see the WS as attractive, is the time when we move forward. It is sort of a turning point.

Remember you love your W, not the WS.

take care,
L.

Dimmu,

Thanks for the complement. I'm glad I've been able to help someone. I still believe our W's are good people. It's just too bad they have been abducted. We should call them the WC (Wayward Creature) instead of WS. It seems more fitting.

I think that I was doing the same kind of logical vs. emotional psycho mind trick as you are. It helps to calm the soul. I am bordering on anger and indignation also. But I am keeping a watchful eye as well should you. Do not let yourself get to far out in these feelings before you plan B. Cause as Jennifer C. told me if the BS goes into withdrawl you might as well sign the D papers.

Orchid,

Posting kind of early today. Did you get your computer together at your house?

To be fair to my W she would be in pain if she rubbed my back for very long. Being a violinist takes it's toll on your shoulders and her hands are weak as well. If what I needed didn't inconvience her then she was apt to do it. If it involved work then she would resist or resent.

Orchid said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Getting to the realization that we as the BS no longer see the WS as attractive, is the time when we move forward. It is sort of a turning point.

Remember you love your W, not the WS.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very adequately summed up. Keeping this feeling from growing out of control and attacking the W is what I worry about. Hopefully you will keep me in check. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

C.

Shmaley,

I like that WC!!! They sure act like it.

Sorry to hear that your W is suffering at such a young age. I used to play the violin but only while in grade school. My practice used to make my baby sister cry so I had a good excuse to stop. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I have used some products that have helped me and others who have muscular and nerve issues. While MB is not the place to advertise, if you want to know more you can e-mail me: mborchid2@yahoo.com. No pressure, just info. You decide. ok?

Glad to hear you got your spunk back! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

L.

Kick up to the top.

Whatcha up 2 there, Shmaley?!?!?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

L.

Not very happy tonight.

I went to my aunt and uncle's annual halloween chili dinner and get together . Grandparents , aunts, uncles, and cousins were all there.

As I was coming home I began to think about things. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I realize that family togetherness is a big EN for me. The last few days I have been just thinking more and more about how W always dissapointed me in the past with the way she distanced herself from the family. "I'm not like them", "I don't know what to say to them", "I can't relate to them", etc. She basically had no respect for any of my aunts or my mother for that matter because they were all housewives. Not that they don't all have college degrees because they do. One of my aunts is even a pharmacist! W just tended to look down on them for their family views and traditional wifely positions.

I always told W that I was not into that sort of thing and encouraged her to stay in her chosen career. Although I was not into moving anywhere to support it. This was my shortsightedness. But that is all water under the bridge now. I'm just feeling well better than having to put up with this sort of crap ya know...

And I know <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> that as soon as I decide it's over and serve her she will turn 180 and want me back. Then I'll be in another delimma. It's a catch 22 and I'm the schmuck that is gonna get it. I told her the first time that she cheated on me when we were dating that she "had started an endless cycle that would be hard to stop". I never imagined that it would continue into our M. She has hurt me and abused my good will for years now.I have a good attitude and hers is crap. I have a good idea and "I got the answer to everything". I want to know when she's going to be home "I'm being her Dad". Well IMO she is the one who is screwed up here! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> And she is the one who has the problem where in her whole family is going to hate her because she is throwing her whole life and values down the toliet!

I swear she is so stupid right now! That is the best word that I can think of to describe what I think of her right now. Stupid and nieve. No wonder her violin instructor used to scribble HUBRIS on her lessons in COLLEGE!! She is a child that refuses to grow up.

I told RM tonight that I used to try to change W when we first M. Because she was so youthful and it embarrased me. Then I decided that it would be a bad idea to change what it was that I had fallen in love with. I mean who wants to repress the one we love right? I saw a lot of beauty in her youthfullness. But now it has turned into ugly immaturity and pathetic arrogance. She is but a shadow. I want children but I don't intend to be M to one. How can I trust this person to raise my children? Will she abuse them as she has abused me? Will she treat them with contempt when they compromise her "good time"?

Part of the last few days feels good. Like a release of something but part of it is still meloncoly. I'm no sure what to do.....It's quite obvious that family functions are going to cause me to lose huge amounts of Love for W though. Should I consider avoiding them? This would be very sad. The way I feel right now though is that if she walked in right now I would just be here ya know? Totally indifferent.

Mister Taker is grumbling in his sleep and is thinking about getting up and cleaning house. He knows someone has been upsetting me and wants to flex some muscle.

Truthfully, If I were to Plan B right now how much would that help? I'm honestly totally separated from her right now with virtually no contact. She has made it this way. So my point is she is avoiding me presently wouldn't it seem wierd to send a Plan B letter stating that I am cutting her off? Ya know what I mean? Doesn't that seem well a little dumb. It's possible that she will talk to me tomorrow or the next day but I feel at a disadvantage because she is ignoring me. I continue to send her letters every week and I am going to call her 2-3 times a week. As well I will go to all her concert events. However, I feel more and more everyday like I AM WAY WAY TOO GOOD FOR HER!!!!

I need some intimacy!!! I need someone to hug and LOVE besides my dogs!!!(at least their loyal) GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

Stupid WW........................................


I am pretty sure that she has applied for and got a credit card. Bad News. I know this because they sent me terms in the mail. WW is real bad with Credit cards. She had $5,000.00 debt when I met her. With my advice she had most of it paid off by the time we got M. I probably need to check the limit on this card (if I can) and then proceed with a legal separation based on this move she has made. This really makes me mad. We always fought over finances.

Well, This is getting long and all you wanted to know was what was up. Sorry you got the big vent Orchid. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> But I know that you understand. And I really appreciate it. You are like an angel to me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Thank you for being an ear. I'm going to read for a while and go to bed.

C.

Morning Shmaley,

Venting is fine. That's what this board is for. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> MBers develope that tough but tender skin so we can handle.

You are seeing the angry side and your taker is kicking in. While your logic is correct how you feel and the actions you take is critical that you plan wisely. Hence a good plan B is vital.

As for implementing plan B when communication is already limited, it c/b a good thing. It may take a while but sooner or later if she really does see the value in your M and you, she will also feel the loss as she should while you are in plan B. If she doesn't than a plan B isn't lost but will minimize your pain as you exit the M.

See plan B is designed to protect the BS not the WS. If the WS can't see the loss, then separation and D is just a matter of time. In plan B, the BS learns to keep the improvements made and move forward.

JMHO,
L.

I see it very clearly now. I said it before but now it is crystal clear.

I have entirely disassociated W from WW. They are absolutley not one in the same. I want my W back and want absolutly NOTHING to do with WW. I feel very good about this. I still have Love for my W! But I have nothing but contempt for the WC (wayward creature). I will drive her out if I can. However, if nothing can retrieve her, when I am satisfied that my W is dead then I will have to move on.

C.

Shmaley,

You have reached a turning point. Painful but postive. With this outlook, you are now in a better position to look for signs of your W instead of being confused by the actions of the WS/WC. When your W does decide to return, there are still issues to resolve.

Family is a strong bonding unit. Not one to be discarded lightly. You have love for family and for some reason your W does not share the same values. This is critical.

In time, she may get to there where you in her values. 'Til then, continue to keep your values close to your heart. It w/b your protection.

Aloha,
L.

What is making me feel so bad? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I just can't figure it out. Just feeling helpless again I guess. Feel like I could have an anxiety attack sometime soon. Pictures have been bugging me today more than usual. And I didn't get to do my workout that I always do on Tuesday.

I took the day off work today so that I could vote, go to IC, talk to my Grandparents, and workout. Well, I voted and went to IC. Nothing else got done. Just finished a rehearsal with my band and it went pretty well. But I still feel depressed. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I know that I need to call WW a couple of times a week but I really don't want to. I cringe just thinking about it. I can't stand her. Not that I ever get to talk to her when I call.....Always a message.....I am so much better than this.....I do not deserve to be treated this way.......She is stupid......But it doesn't really matter does it.....None of it does.......Just a bunch of crap......*sigh*.......

Tried to call my confidant but she had gone to bed early. RM is here and I will talk to her after her friend leaves. Guess I'll just read some for now.

C.

Well, I spoke to my Grandparents (father's side) last night. Let them know all that was going on. I am very fortunate to have so much family all living close together. They were sad and dissapointed with WW. However, they said that they "Sure Love her a lot and hope that she comes back". Amazing isn't it.?! Lots of forgivness that WW would never believe that anyone would have given her.

In my next letter I will tell WW what they said when I told them. They did not say a single bad word towards her. They also said that they would pray for her. Grandma even asked what I wanted to do about Christmas, if they should buy gifts for her. Most people would have just written her off. See I told you guys God has been favoring me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

God Bless

C.

WW,

Sitting up late tonight thinking. I heard you did well in the concerto aria competition. Glad to hear that you are doing some good things. How is everything else at school? How are your lessons going?

Last Wednesday I went over to my Grandparents house to talk to them about everything that has been going on. They were saddened and disappointed by what I told them. But I thought that you should hear what they had to say. Grandpa said “I sure love her a lot and we hope that she comes home.” He told me that he will be praying for you. Grandma said that she has really missed you. I’ll have to say I did not expect these responses. We are truly blessed to have family with the capacity to forgive like this. I was more afraid of telling them than anyone else.

Recently, I have been coming to terms with some deep rooted issues of mine. I feel that Sisters’ life and passing had more of an effect on me than I have been able to understand until now. During the years that we were struggling with her decline I needed to display more emotion than I was capable of. I couldn’t keep up so I just shut down. My only protection was to stop any displays of emotion. How many times have you seen me cry? In eight years I think that you could count them on one hand right? By the time that she passed the damage was already done. That is why I couldn’t cry real tears on the night that she passed away. Do you know what it feels like when you can’t cry even though you’re hurting to the core?

I hope that you are learning about yourself as well during our time apart. Do you know what has shaped you into the person you have become today? I’ve copied a verse for you from my studies. This verse really spoke to me when I first read it. I hope that it speaks to you also.

Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

2Corinthians (4:16-18, NIV)

With my Love,

C.


Whatdayathink?!!???!!

C.

scmaly (C)
Pretty intense.

Very from your heart.

It will probably make her feel guilty.

You are quite a guy.

I think I love you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Rachel

Shmaley,

Once again your writing really reaches into the depths of a sane person. Very moving indeed.

Hope it has a positive effect on the WS. Though it may take a while to see any real reaction.

Please have patience. You aren't wasting your words, they just have to go through a lot of dense fog.

take care,
L.

MYOSS,

LOL...Sorry but I'm not available. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Thank you for the kind words.

Orchid,

Where have you been? I've missed you... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I'm just really needy right now. Went to pick up RM at the school and I saw WW's car. It almost gave me a panic attack. I don't think that my meds are working right anymore. It was pretty mild but reminded me of those first days. With this in mind I can really appreciate how Plan B will be a safer place.

I've been thinking a lot about family and how I really want one nowdays. Children are a must for me. This I am certain about now. Before I could have gone either way but not now. I want so much to be normal again. Whatever that is??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Feeling alright but kinda touch and go....know what I mean??....like fragile maybe. Probably the meds.

Thanks for introducing me to DJ. He lives only about 50min from me. Actually, one of WW's orchestra gigs is in his town. He has assured me that he can let me know exactly all the wrong things to do! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I think he's actually serious though.

Ya know, I did stay up real late last night so maybe my meds are fine. I gotta stop doing that....I just love those Lattes though. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

God Bless you guys

C.

Shmaley,

U know I am right here......what 5000 miles away? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I stopped by my cousin's this morning to check up on you and do some work. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I know those panic attack feelings. They will lessen with time but you do well to be aware they can spring on you at any time. Now don't be scared just be aware.

Learn to do your deep breathing exercises. They worked for me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Take care of yourself, ok? No tying yourself up in knots. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> BS tend to get real wound up with this A stuff. Makes one real tense with lots of adrenaline flowing. Our bodies can handle this for a while but not forever. Eventually one's body revolts and says....'no more, stop this intense pain stuff.' Or something like that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Glad you got in contact with DJ. It is always helpful to get some perspective from others who are closer. I don't him real well but hope u 2 get together sometime.

Now I gotta go and run to my mom's house. Gonna try t/b a good daughter, ya know? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Aloha,
L.

You know I've been reading your thread a bit tonight and I wanted to say something that might not be very MB like but Shmaley, you are so young, you have no children and in one of your later posts you even said yourself she was never affectionate or very supportive.

Why do you want her back? Think very honestly about this. If it is about the failure/ego thing you need to look at that. If it is about the vows you made to her, look at that too. If it is a religious thing, look at that.

If you end up going end to plan B, and it looks like you will make sure what it is you want and need from your partner in life.

It may be that this is your opportunity to look very closely at who you have become through all this and what you will desire and expect from a wife.

Can she, is she capable of fulfilling those things? Is she capable of accepting from you the things you need to give?

Recovery is harder than where you are now, from what I am reading on here, and if you want children, affection, passion & friendship from your mate, maybe you need to tadk a very hard honest look if you can have that with her.

There are a lot of very good, beautiful, faithful & passionate women out there who would make good moms and life partners in this world.

Don't settle for less, especially if you see children in your future.

I don't want to discourage you from hanging on and working to get her back, but I don't want to see you sell yourself short either, and possibly get less than what you need from a wife.

You are very young and don't have that many years, or finances invested nor do you have children. That should weigh into the factor, IMHO.

<small>[ November 06, 2004, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: weaver ]</small>