Thanks for the moral support Bob Pure. Trying to look after myself but I stray sometimes. I am building a strong support base though friends and family. Going to a IC session today and feeling better after a late night and bad morning. Finished reading SAA last night and have been reading posts like mad for the last week.
About all affairs being the same, I would have to agree as well. Dishonesty is the key poison here. Without it there would probably be no affairs. Another thing you are definitely right about is this affair has not made me a worse person but a better one.
Thanks again for the post and I hope you are doing well also.

Shmaley

<small>[ August 26, 2004, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: shmaley ]</small>

<small>[ August 26, 2004, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: shmaley ]</small>

I think I figured out why my WW won't admit that the A has anything to do with her leaving. She knows deep inside that the A will probably eventually fail and doesn't want to feel like she threw away her M for a superficial relationship. So she is trying to totally blame her abandonment of me on career related issues. Issues that she doesn't want to work out but just accept that they are unresolvable problems.

She also says that she doesn't think that I would ever be able to forgive her for what she has done. She doesn't believe that we can make it through the withdrawl and subsequent resentment stage. What do I say to that? Don't want to argue can't LB!

What do you guys think!?!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

She'll say anything to justify the A. She's just human. We tend to justify why we did something that's wrong.
About the forgiving part: you're still there aren't you? You could have dumped her cold when the A came to light, but you chose not to. Forgiving her is an essential part of recovery from an A, we all know that. You want the marriage to work, so you can and will forgive her.
She will just have to trust you on that.

Thanks for the reply DB. I will keep that one in my pocket for MC if it comes up. The fact of the matter is that I could have cut and ran but I didn't and I'm sticking it out and standing my ground. Our M is worth it. Keep praying and Keep on Keeping on!

Have any of you guys ever had your WW say that she hoped she could set you up with one of her friends? Crazy woman said that to me when she first told me that she was leaving. "I hope we can be friends". I just remembered this one today. Felt like I was in an episode of saved by the bell. LOL

Foggy brained WW.

Just thought of a good reverse babble for this one. "I am your friend your not being my friend." How you like those apples! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ August 29, 2004, 11:26 AM: Message edited by: shmaley ]</small>

I sent this e-mail to WW last Sunday before she left for the week to A's town. She will be there until after Labor day.

WW,

How are you feeling today? I was just thinking about you and thought I would communicate some of my feelings to you. There is so many things that we need to talk about. I don't believe there is any order for these kinds of things so I'll just pick a place and start.

In the past, I have put my job before us and that was a terrible mistake on my part. For this I am deeply sorry. I should have been more interested in your needs to move forward in your career and develop your talents. I am willing to work with you to find a great career solution that we will both be excited about. Moving to another state is not a problem when we are planning for these events. By working together we can come up with some very thoughtful and mutually acceptable solutions for our career paths. In the past we have always talked about this but never worked together to an end solution. We either tabled the issue indefinitely, forced our own way, or just gave in with out a thoughtful discussion. Do you remember when we decided to move to "City"? We came upon that one together. It scared me but I knew that in the end we would be alright. The next one we worked on together was the decision to stay here. There were good reasons for that decision at the time. Now as things have not worked out in respect to our present career paths it is time for another decision. We both know decisions can be difficult and confusing sometimes but together we can conquer them.

I want you to know that you are in my heart and my prayers. Although, I don't agree with what you are doing right now I still believe you are a good person. I have always admired your caring and loving personality and true heart. Please let me know that you have received this e-mail either through a reply or the next time I talk to you. We won't need to discuss any of this if you don't feel like it but I am always here if you need me.

With my love

C.

She never replied but I know that she got it because I asked her on the phone. She apologized for not responding.

What do you guys think? If she is too fogged she will probably just ignore this right? I don't want to over do this kind of thing but feel compelled to explain what I am feeling to her.
Orchid I am hopeing that you will post back on this one. I am going to call you out on the subject.

Thanks,

C.

<small>[ August 29, 2004, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: shmaley ]</small>

I have been thinking about this a lot. And at one point I was obsessed with it. Have been considering doing a criminal background check on OM and finding his parents or whatever family he has to out him and WW. OM lives a couple of states away and is with my WW as I type. Just love the thought of him being humiliated by his family caught with my WW visiting.

Is this over the top?

I know it would be a LB but wouldn't it be worth it in the end? This long distance A they are in is making it hard for them to see each others faults. At least that is my perception.

I would appreciate your opinion on this one as well Orchid.

shmaley,

Sorry for the delay. Been frantically packing our container and haven't been on MB much. All the same, I read your posts and can see your obessing. Very normal but dangerous thing for a BS t/d. I understand that you feel you must do this because you are fighting for your M.

Ok, let's put your energies to work in a positive way. You have read SAA, met with your IC and read this forum. Now take the EN questionnaire located in the concepts section above. Do it once as yourself and 2nd as your W. Let us know how it turns out. Then get ahold of the books His Needs/Her Needs & Giver/Taker both are by Dr W. Harley. Also the book Love must be Tough by Dr James Dobson w/b good reading.

See if you can schedule a phone session or 2 with Jennifer @ MB. She is great working w/WS'.

Have you started your journal yet? It will help you keep that obessive desire in check. Also you can do a background check on the OM. Keep your journal and findings in a safe place. Write a vent letter or OM family/work contact letter if you need but DON'T send it. ...... Not yet. Keep that in a safe place also.

U now have a lot to do. Get crackin'. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You will have great support here. Some of the other guys are going through the same if not worse and they have all weathered it quite well. It is definitely hard at first.

Why? Because you are battling the unknown with a lot of intentionally misleading statements/actions. Also your mind and heart are not in sync yet and you are frustrating yourself.

Once your know this, it will help you get stable and make a working plan of action.

Gotta go, keep posting, ok? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

take care,
L.

Started my journal (been putting that one off) and it does help. Started looking up info that I need for the BG check. That was painful. Almost started to have an anxiety attack but got through it. I will type out my story next in detail to keep from wasting time on the phone with Jennifer C. And I'll try to get to the questionaire tonight and order the Giver/Taker and Love must be tough on Monday. Thanks for the direction Orchid I really needed it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi,

Good to see your progress. You got a lot done in 1 day. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Keep up the good work. Pace yourself. ok? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

take care,
L.

Have some important questions that I have been thinking about.

WW has said to me in counseling and to two other close sources that she does not believe that I will be able to forgive and not resent her for what she has done. Have heard this echoed enough at this point that I believe it is a real issue and not just babble. The reason she uses to back this up is that when I had an A before we were M she tried everything to get me back and felt like she had forgiven me. Now during one of our counseling sessions she has come to the conclusion that she has not and has been resenting me. Now because of this she does not have the faith that I have the capacity to forgive her. How do I combat this? Right now I feel I can definitely forgive her but she has to agree to NC. We have only discussed NC once in our MC and she said she was not willing to do that right now. However, she maintained that it still had nothing to do with her leaving. "That is babble I think."

I need to be prepared to combat this angle!

Through this experience and talking to many of her "good" friends and family I have discovered that she has a great need to avoid conflict. I guess that I was just oblivious to this before. But this is coming to the top as one of the most significant issues. As one of her best friends described it "WW has always let others make decisions for her to avoid any conflict and she is still doing it now". I recognize this now because I could never get a straight answer out of her like "yes" or "no". She would always say "If you want to", "I guess so", or "I don't care". Even when I pushed her she would refuse to give a definite answer. Big Big Giver!

Another question I have is when she gets back should I try to get her to do things with me? Like go out for a walk in the park or some other activity that we might enjoy. I know that she will tell me that she doesn't have enough time. Since she says that she is moving out when she gets back my plan A is going to suffer even more. She already wasn't even staying at home. What is the most plan A way to get her to spend some time with me? And when we do go out shouldn't I just keep it simple and not talk about anything serious?

On the lighter side, I have been learning to take care of myself better everyday. I have started running in the mornings and learning how to cook. The cooking thing will really blow WW away. I should probably invite her over to dinner and cook for her maybe that would be a good activity! Anyways, just trying to get my head straight this morning. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

C.

<small>[ September 01, 2004, 10:24 AM: Message edited by: shmaley ]</small>

Bump^

Bump^

Shmaley,

Sorry for the delayed response.

Good to hear about your personal improvements..... don't flaunt them, just show them up casually..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> No invites for dinner just eat it in front of her or invite others and dazzle them.... they c/b your promoters. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

As for her statements about u not being able to forgive her....well that is fog babble. Why? Because you forgiving her is YOUR choice not her's. Babble back that it c/b true (your not forgiving her) but that is YOUR choice NOT hers.

Keep up the good work. Let us know your cooking specialities. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

L.

Called WW this morning. She is still in OM town 15 hrs away. She didn't answer so I left a message said some nice caring things in a confident and happy voice and ended with "I hope you have a good day." I have said that to her every morning for the last 2 years before I went to work. There was no ILY's on the message. The last time I called her was on Thurs over a week ago. Is this too little contact? I don't think it is too much but I have been trying to keep my distance right now as I am the one that has to initiate all contact. Just need to get my head straight about where the boundaries are.

On other topics what do I say if she refuses MC counseling? She has said to her parents and friends that she will go but not for how long. I can see her trying to drop the counseling and saying "yeah I went" just because she went to a few sessions. I know that I cannot control what she does I just want to know what tact to take if this occurs. WW's do not like having it rubbed in their face that what they are doing is wrong. Nor do they like to be asked to think about how their actions compare to their values. So I could see her trying to bail before long or when it starts to get rough.

Another thing I was wondering about WW says her morals have changed. Fogtalk... How would I babble back to that one? When she said this in MC I asked her if she still believed in God, she said "yes". We have not been church goers but this was one of the first questions she ever asked me when we were courting. Her parents have taught in religious schools for years and she was raised going to church every week. So at least she has not denounced her faith yet.

A question about exposure. Right now her parents and some friends know about the A. When will I expose this to the OP parents? I have names and addresses and have started to draft a letter. Should I consider exposing at the University that she works at? Some of these people she respects and have given her good advice in the past Should I expose to the pastor that married us? She hand picked him as he was a friend of her family. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Cooking pasta premavera with alfredo sauce tonight for some friends. I have never done the alfredo sauce before so wish me luck. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

C.

<small>[ September 05, 2004, 01:35 AM: Message edited by: shmaley ]</small>

Dinner went great. Everybody liked my sauce but I think I can do better. The problem now is the usual no sleep. Mental unrest is really set in tonight. I think I will have another beer and listen to some Chet Baker. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>shmaley: Called WW this morning. She is still in OM town 15 hrs away. She didn't answer so I left a message said some nice caring things in a confident and happy voice and ended with "I hope you have a good day." I have said that to her every morning for the last 2 years before I went to work. There was no ILY's on the message. The last time I called her was on Thurs over a week ago. Is this too little contact? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: If you were told that she didn't answer because she is with the OM, would you still want to leave that msg?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>shmaley: On other topics what do I say if she refuses MC counseling? She has said to her parents and friends that she will go but not for how long. I can see her trying to drop the counseling and saying "yeah I went" just because she went to a few sessions. I know that I cannot control what she does I just want to know what tact to take if this occurs. WW's do not like having it rubbed in their face that what they are doing is wrong. Nor do they like to be asked to think about how their actions compare to their values. So I could see her trying to bail before long or when it starts to get rough. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: It is her choice to refuse counseling. It is also your choice to then implement plan B. Whenever she chooses to bail is also her choice. Then it is your choice to let her continue to hurt you or not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>shmaley: Another thing I was wondering about WW says her morals have changed. Fogtalk... How would I babble back to that one? When she said this in MC I asked her if she still believed in God, she said "yes". .... So at least she has not denounced her faith yet. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Agree with her. Her morals have changed and probably her scent also. WS' have a stench (figuratively and even physically) that reeks of the A. I used that spin on my WS and of course he couldn't smell it but I told him that he stunk when he came around. This allowed me to disfuse his WS anger. Smell is a strong sense and can leave a lasting impression. When he'd come around and act up (angry mode), I'd start to sniff the air. He'd ask what's the matter and I'd reply 'not sure but something kinda stinks around here, where you been anyways?' <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I often knew he had just been with the OW (unaswered phone calls, he'd confess or the OW would call and say he was just with her). Anyway it was a useful tool for me. Can't use it tooo often though.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>shmaley: A question about exposure. Right now her parents and some friends know about the A. When will I expose this to the OP parents? I have names and addresses and have started to draft a letter. Should I consider exposing at the University that she works at? Some of these people she respects and have given her good advice in the past Should I expose to the pastor that married us? She hand picked him as he was a friend of her family. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: How is her family and your friends reacting to it? Further exposure to the OP's side and work can be done but cautiously. You don't want her fired but if the work is enabling the A then some exposure maybe needed. I would concentrate on the family/friends 1st. As for the pastor, let him know. Can he help you?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>shmaley: Cooking pasta premavera with alfredo sauce tonight for some friends. I have never done the alfredo sauce before so wish me luck. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

C. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Heard your dinner went well. I'm quite proud of you. I always admire a man who cooks and washes dishes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> It ranks high on my EN scale. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Can you come over and teach my H? Just kidding. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

take care,
L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Orchid: If you were told that she didn't answer because she is with the OM, would you still want to leave that msg? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Shmaley: I assumed that this might be the case. So Yes. Am I making myself a doormat here? If I am being a doormat how could I have avoided this? Different msg... No msg....???


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Orchid: How is her family and your friends reacting to it? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Shmaley: Her parents have told her it is wrong and basically condemmed the relationship. However, they are cautious not to tell her what to do for fear that she will lock them out. I wish they were more stern but I am just going off of impressions of what has been said anyways. I don't know what most of her friends have said but they have encouraged her to go to counseling.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Orchid: Further exposure to the OP's side and work can be done but cautiously. You don't want her fired but if the work is enabling the A then some exposure maybe needed. I would concentrate on the family/friends 1st. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Shmaley: Does OP = OM . Sorry I am confused here. When should I expose to the OM's family? I realize the possibility that WW will retaliate by not going to MC. Is this exposure worth the trade? As for her work it only enables the A as far as her attempting to get auditions where OM lives. They are allowing her time off to audition in OM's city is this considered enabling? As far as family and friends only her parents and close aunt know. Other exposures in the family could be very damaging to recovery. If her grandparents found out they would likely disown her reguardless of the outcome.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Orchid: As for the pastor, let him know. Can he help you? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Shmaley: I will let him know. I am sure that he will talk to her if I ask him to. However, I do not know if she will recieve him. Unfortunately I think that he may have moved out of state at this point so he may only be able to call her.

BTW I have started Fall in Love Stay in Love and have already read SAA and HNHN. In what order should I try to get WW to read these books? I am assuming that I should not ask her to read SAA because of plan A / plan B.

C.

<small>[ September 07, 2004, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: shmaley ]</small>