I am a little mentally tired right now. WW came over for her B-day last night and I gave her a few presents and a card. Nothing spectacular but we did a little more talking. She asked me how work was going at work and I told her that it was alright but that I had realized that things will never change. Lots of family conflict in the business. She said well maybe you understand how I felt. I became defensive but did not let her know it until later. We were interupted by RM for a min. then went back to talking.

I tried to get her to explain what she meant a little better. She said that she felt trapped by the place that we were living in and knew that she would never be able to go anywhere in her career. I told her that I understood. Tried to get her to explain more but she said that was all there was to it. Then I talked a little about how defensive I had felt when she mentioned my family business. I was basically exploring these feelings with her and made sure that she knew it. Trying to show emotional honesty here. A little earlier I told her that I had started feeling bad. She said today? I said since you got here. She asked if it was my stomach or how I was feeling bad. I said mentally, I have started feeling sad. She looked away and was sad too for a moment. I told her that I was not telling her this to make her feel bad but that I just wanted to be totally honest with her about my emotions. Then, I encouraged her to do the same with me. Told her that I wasn't looking for a temperature reading every second that she was with me but I hoped that she would share her emotions with me.

The last thing I talked to her about was again the faith I have in God. I told her that I have put it in His hands. Not that I will not continue to persue you and improve myself, I said. But it is in His hands now. There quite capable hands don't you guys think? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I told her that I hoped that she would do the same and pray to Him. I told her that I pray for her every day. Then I told her that I often ask myself three questions (learned these from FiM).

1) Do I still love my W? Yes.
2) Do I want my M back? No, I want a better one.
3) Am I willing to fight for it? Yes

At this point she was trying not to cry. I didn't want to make her cry on her B-day and told her so. I gave her a big hug and hurried her off to meet her friends so that she would not become upset anymore. Told her to have a great time.

Now that was a good talk but today she is on the road for "Big City" (OM's town) to play in a concert series. I am still on my high from the last two conversations that we have had where I have been able to thoroghly express myself. So bitter sweet right now. I am dreading how shut down I am going to feel in the next few days when thoughts start to creep in. I will try my best not to think about it and also try to expect the worst. If I get to going on it too much it will only be a matter of min. before I will be seething. But as good luck would have it there is a lot going on for me this week! I'm having the first rehearsal with my new band on Thurs. and I've go IC with the ST on Wed.. I'm working out everyday, building a computer for my parents, and work is really bumping. Along with many house projects that I can do there is quite a bit going on. Just need to keep my mind off of it for now.

C.

Hi Shmaley,

Not much to add. Seems like you know this is the bumpy part of the course but you have managed to retain control and do what you find you need to do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I am glad to see you are making strides forward. Mildly letting her know and then moving forward so that your actions match your words. Radical honesty, you are showing by example. This is good.

Keep up the good work.

I think she will be wondering what you are up to. Yippee!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

L.

I have been pondering on if I should pull back again when she gets back. I mean as kind of a reaction to her visit to OM's town. I think that it should cost her. However, I am not wanting to back off and lose ground right after she has this visit with OM.

What do you think?

BTW I finally called the pastor that married us tonight. He has known WW since her birth. He was very saddened by the news and talked to me for about 45min. At the end we prayed and he offered to help any way I saw fit. He said that if I thought that a door was open to let him know and he would do what ever he could. It was real good to talk to him.

C.

C.

Hi Shamley,

Well I am glad you were able to get more postive support! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

As for the pulling back stuff, since you asked what I thought you are now obligated to hear it. LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Watch her attitude and actions:

1. If she shows anger, frustration, can't look you in the eye and doesn't want to talk, then don't pursue convo. Pull back. Be the strong and silent type. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

2. If she speaks only of her accomplishements and fears but mainly about herself, listen politely and don't give info about what you are up to. She probably can't handle it.

3. If she tells of her trip and also shows interests in how you are doing, then be polite and show your interest in her accomplishments and briefly outline what you have been up to. Leave her wanting to ask more. Be coy if you need. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Item 3 is meeting her needs. Items 1 & 2 are not meeting much of her needs if you try to say much. So don't set yourself up to fail by meeting as many of her needs if she is relunctant to allow it.

JMHO,
L.

WW never really shows anger or frustration towards me. I'm just too darn nice right now.

You have to undersatnd that WW has always been wound tight as a top. Very stressed out about the littlest things, to the point that she would curse and growl at very minor frustrations. Such as the phone ringing, me leaving a shirt out on the couch, and anything at all to do with a computer. Lots of yelling and cursing. Her behavior progressed to this level over the last three years.

Now she almost never behaves this way in front of me. And if she does it is very mild. No yelling and cursing. She does act a little frustrated but not angry or agressive EVER.

The point I am getting at here is that she is very much avoiding conflict by extinction. So up to now she does not start conversations with me. She always keeps it very surface. However, the comment that she made at our last talk

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She asked me how work was going at work and I told her that it was alright but that I had realized that things will never change. Lots of family conflict in the business. She said well maybe you understand how I felt. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">is really the first time I can remember since d-day that she has volunteered her feelings. She even instigated the conversation. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I went to the IC/ST today and told him about this. He said this was a perfect opportunity for me to have validated her feelings. We were clicking on something and I didn't really catch it because I was too wrapped up in trying to explain how I felt. It is still good that it happened but I will be ready to get more into how she feels and try harder to accept, understand, and validate next time.

But back to what I was saying about her not starting conversations. If she were more talkative then I could more easily use your advice Orchid. But she just never really gives me much. I have to drag most of it out of her. Guess I'll just keep on dragging. But I feel like I am talking to myself and for myself. I will definitely admit that I have a tendency to run on and on sometimes, expecially when I feel convicted about something. I am very convicted about the things I have learned here but I have been real good about not lecturing or being overbareing.

I was talking to RM tonight and she said that she felt like WW was feeling ok whenever she thought that I was doing ok. And when she thought I was doing bad she was concerned, very inquisitive and even upset. I told RM a long time ago to tell WW to call me when ever she asked RM how I was doing. This makes me want to let he know somehow how much pain I have been through. IC/ST said tonight that he felt I should let WW know my feelings in this way. He has seen how outwardly confident and strong I seem and asked me what were some of the emotions that "I" was feeling. Sadness, Anger, Guilt, Abandonment, Loneliness, Fear, and Embarassment all came out in about 5 sec. He said "WOW, have you told WW about any of these emotions?" That was the first time that I realized that I had not told her any of these emotions that I have been experiencing. How do I convey this to her??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I mean that's pretty heavy material to lay on a WS but she needs to know. Along with the fact that RM said what I just told you I think that it is probably necessary. But how? You know I just realized that I told her the other night something that really qualifies for this and I even posted it. Remember:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I said mentally, I have started feeling sad. She looked away and was sad too for a moment. I told her that I was not telling her this to make her feel bad but that I just wanted to be totally honest with her about my emotions. Then, I encouraged her to do the same with me. Told her that I wasn't looking for a temperature reading every second that she was with me but I hoped that she would share her emotions with me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is what I have been talking about. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> See how thick I am sometimes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> On those lines now I should accomplish the same for the other emotions as I see fit for the situation. But more than that I should ask her about her emotions more. That is how I got her to open up a little after the concert on Sunday. I asked "Where are you at?"

Well, this post is just kind of a journey tonight and it is not adressing what I intended it to address but it is useful. In my last post I was really trying to ask "shouldn't I give WW some consequences for her action of going to see OM"? I would accomplish this through the pulling back. Probably a bad idea I guess. I just feel like....well you know helpless I guess. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I am not feeling terrible yet so don't worry. But I am sure it's in the mail. Just a matter of time.

C.

I was at work this morning and started feeling bad. I woke up depressed this morning because I was dreaming about WW and OM. Been trying to fight it. So I decided to use what the IC/ST told me to do yesterday. I decided to call WW and let her know how I felt. Of course she didn't answer so I left this message:

I am just sitting in my car because I can't focus on anything at work. I really need to talk to you right now. Pause......breathing and regaining composure I woke up this morining Depressed then I started Obsessing, then I Scheme, then I get Angry, and then I am Depressed all over again. Pause......breathing and regaining composure I'm just in a lot of pain right now. Bye

I was very emotional in my delivery and almost cried. Not like me, I'm just not really a crier. One thing is for sure I am starting to feel a lot better. Letting that out helped. I am starting to realize how emotionally closed of a person I really am. I've got some really thick armour. My guess is it stems from my sister's struggle and death when I was 13. I mean I lived that for as long as I can remember. That experience is enough to make anyone clam up shut down. Maybe I just needed to display so much emotion while I was a child that I could not keep up and as a result I just shut down. Sad.

See how good I am at analysing myself. I am so left brained analytical I am suprised I don't number my underwear. I mean it's all just theory but it's been a journey to get to that conclusion. I think it has at least some truth to it.

I am so greatful for all of your guys here at MB and you ((((Orchid)))) especially.

C.

Shamley,

I have seen you learn and grow a lot in this short time. Though it seems like an eternity your progress shows you are making great strides. Learning to cope with one's limitations is a big step in our personal recovery.

Keep the forward momentum. It is an uphill battle but it is definitely worth the the struggle. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Those bad dreams can send a BS spinning at times. Knowing this will help you realize you are not alone with your feelings. Keep posting and venting as needed.

I got help when I needed it here. I also had to take the steps to apply what I was learning. I can see you doing the same.

Keep it up! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

L.

shmaley - Sorry, I don't remember reading about your sister's death when you were 13. Are you comfortable talking about it? If not, please forgive this post.

I am fine talking about it. She had CF (cystic fybrosis). Discovered at 4yrs and she died when she was 16. CF attacks the lungs with lots of mucus. She had to have what we called treatments everyday where Mom or Dad took a paddle and ran it on her back until she coughed up some of the flem in her lungs. She lived with a smokers type cough all of her life. She was a very bright girl. We fought all the time but she would have stuck up for me if I needed it. We loved each other.

I didn't cry real tears when she died. I made myself cry because I felt it was expected. I also didn't want to live the rest of my life knowing that the night my sister died I didn't cry. The night she died we were all in the childrens hospital the whole family grandparents and everyone. She was outlived by her grandparents.....My mother was not right for close to ten years. That was when I think that she finally stopped grieving. She went through phases of blaming herself to hoping that somehow she might have been reincarnated in children that were recently born. I went through this with her. My mother is a good christian in my eyes. She has always encouraged our faith and has kept hers through all things. As well her and my father stayed married through all of this.

I remember that she liked fried okra and boiled shrimp. And she liked payday bars too. She always wanted long hair and could never grow it so she would run around the house with a slip on her head and say it was long hair. *smile* She really loved Kentuckey Fried Chicken too. She did very well in school and had a lot of friends.

Well that's the condensed version. Never wrote anything about it before. And I don't usually talk about it either. I do miss her sometimes though. If she was here she would be helping me right now. The more I write the more I start to get sad so I'm gonna stop now.


C.

Shmaley,

{{{hugz}}}} Your parents s/b proud. They have loving and caring children. I am sure your sister was proud to have you as her brother. I know I would have been. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Your last post must have been hard but am glad if it helped a bit. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Going through experiences like yours can help us realize what is really important in life. Material advantages attained via greed or hurting others to attain other selfish interests, don't hold a candle to real love.

Hugz,
L.

Schmaly,

Try and have a good weekend, ok?

You really are a heck of a guy!


Weaver

Thanks, Weaver.

You too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

C.

Ditto Weaver!!!

Have some fun in the sun!

Aloha,
L.

I forgot to mention the exposure at WW's school happend. She is out of town and doesn't know it yet though. It cannot be traced back to me as far as I can tell. However, if she tries to blame me she will be out of luck because I will stonewall her and babble right back at her if need be! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I was talking with RM tonight and she thought what I said to WW in the phone call will be very beneficial. She feels like WW tries to think most of the time that I am doing "OK" and that makes her feel alright. Well, I'm not ok! And most everytime I feel not "ok" I am going to call her and ask for her support. Maybe this will show her just how not "ok" I can really be. When I hurt I am going to share the burden with her.

I have to go into work in the morning and that is a real bummer. I have really started to hate my job. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> My father is great and I love him a lot. But that is not a good reason to stay in a job that I cannot tolorate. With people that I cannot tolorate. In a situation that will never change. Too many family politics in family businesses. I would not recommend one that is shared by syblings. An immediate family type family business might be ok. But there is too many conflicting philosophies in my situation.

Well, I guess I will lurk some more.

C.

Here's my Plan B letter. I'm not going into Plan B right now or anything but Jennifer C. told me to draft one all the same. I stole this one for the most part....so who ever wrote this thanks. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


My Dearest WW,

This is a difficult letter for me to write, but it&#8217;s written with love and compassion. Please read every word I have written as it is from my heart.

I feel deeply saddened by what has happened to our marriage and us. I apologize to you for my part in
creating an environment that resulted in your affair with <OM>. This has been a wake up call for me. I now clearly recognize many of my mistakes in the past and how I was not meeting your needs. I cannot change those, but I have learned from them so that I can take steps to ensure that they will not occur again. I am willing to avoid the mistakes I've made in the past and create a new life for both of us that will meet your most important needs. Whatever happens to us, these changes are permanent in me and I am a better person because of them.


You may not know what I have endured because of your decision to separate and because of your relationship with [OM]. I fully realize that these things were just symptoms of pre-existing problems. But all of these problems are fixable. I have worked hard by myself on this. I still love you, but now I find that it is just too painful for me to continue by myself. Seeing and talking to you is just a constant reminder of the pain that I feel. I just cannot see or talk to you and try to be your friend under these conditions any longer - until you are ready to put this behind us permanently and are willing to try to rebuild our family. Simply put, I am now separating from you in order to protect myself from the stresses and from further pain and to protect my love for you until you are ready to commit to rebuilding our family. I understand that you may have your own pain and that I may be the source of your pain, but these things are fixable if we are willing to try.

Until you can truthfully and honestly end your relationship with <OM> and return home and work with me on rebuilding our marriage, I will avoid seeing or talking to you. I will also not be able to help you financially. I will continue to provide financial support for what I've addressed in the attached letter. "Friend" and "Friend" have agreed to help make arrangements for you if you need to access the house. Except in the case of a life threatening situation, if you want to talk to me, it will have to be through "F" and "F".

I am not doing this to punish you, it is to protect my feelings for you and our chances at rebuilding our relationship once we have a chance. If we continue as we are now, I'm afraid there would be nothing left between us. I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you in this way.

I love you WW. You will always be very special to me. You are the only person I have allowed myself to love so deeply. I loved you more than life itself while we were together, and I continue to do so as I write this. I look back through our life and I now I choose to only remember the good times and learn from the bad. I can forgive whatever pain you have caused and hope that in time you will forgive me too. I just cannot be with you or see you while you are with another and feel the need to have a separate life without me.

When you find yourself ready and willing to truly and fully commit to our family, willing to work on a plan to rebuild our marriage, willing to permanently separate from OM, and join me in counseling, I will be ready and willing to discuss our future. These are the conditions I have set for myself necessary to end my separation from you.

I want us to be able to rebuild our marriage some day. I want us to be able to meet each other's emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We need to build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then there will never again be a reason for us to separate. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you as my best friend.

I loved you when we married and I continue to love you right up to this day. I just cannot be with you or help you as long as you are seeing OM.

With my love,
BS

OM. I love WW with all my heart and I am willing to do whatever it takes to make her happy. Do the honorable thing by allowing our family a chance to rebuild.



I think it sums up my situation perfectly. I am going to set up some IC next week with Jennifer C.and I'll ask her what she thinks of it. What do you guys think?

C.

<small>[ October 17, 2004, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: shmaley ]</small>

I like the letter, as far a Plan B letters go. They are so incredibly sad, knowing the heartache behing them that I don't really like to read them, so I am no expert by far.

Hugs to you Schmaly (I hope I spelled it right this time)

((((((Schmaly)))))


weaver

LOL Weaver... S h m a l e y <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Just think Sh male y pronounced shh-mail-e

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks for the reply. Putting this letter together makes me feel more in control. I mean I have to move on even if she isn't going to come along with me. I think I read a post today by TMCM that said something about A's being immature and that Mature people would not be afraid to D and live alone. I am feeling more that way all the time. It is a feeling of self respect and confidence. I still love my W. But I am of a higher caliber than she is giving me credit for.

{{{HugZ Back}}} <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

C.

Orchid,

WW is playing in a concert tonight. She has a lot of solos and it will be infront of lots of faculty. Should I take her a Rose which is traditional for after performance at these types of concerts. Even though I have not yet even seen or spoken to her since she got back from OM's town? Remember exposures have begun at this place and me being nice in front of these people should be a real nice added load of pressure on WW. What do you think?

Of course, my original plan was to go but not stay long enough afterwards to talk to her. Sort of a punishment for her going to see OM. But I will endure if it could be beneficial. Not wanting to be a doormat but I want the opportunity to fill the EN for admiration and apply indirect pressure at the same time. Sort of a power play. I am "ok" for doing this, really.

C.

Orchid,

WW is playing a concert in which she has a lot of solos tonight in front of a lot of faculty. I was planning on going but leaving before I even saw her. Sort of a punishment for going to see OM. She just got back from her trip and I haven't seen or spoken to her yet. However, I see an opportunity here. Should I maybe take her a rose (or just flowers), which is sort of traditional for after concerts. I don't want to be a doormat but I am "ok" with this as long as it could be beneficial. There are exposures coming out in this place (even though she doesn't know it yet) and me being nice to her infront of these people could really make a difference for public opinion. As well, I see it as a sort of power play where I get to supply an EN (admiration) and become the good guy. Let me know what you think.

C.

Sorry though I lost that last post so I rewrote. Both say the same thing.

<small>[ October 18, 2004, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: shmaley ]</small>

Dear Shmaley,

Sorry for the delayed reponse, I have to go to my cousin's house when I post. My 'puter ain't up yet. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

As for the 'rose', I think it w/b in good taste. I was speaking to a MB yesterday(who doesn't post much here anymore) and we were 'talking about your sitch'. He is a single father who had his children taken from him by the WS due to his being reassign and scheduled t/b deployed. He told me about when he sent flowers to his wife's workplace and the workers got all excited. Mind you, his WS was shacking up with a clerk from a variety dept store, where she was also employed. Yet some of the workers were excited when the BS sent her flowers. Sure threw a wrench in the A. To this day, that WS does not sound happy.

Anyway, I think the rose w/b a good gesture. Be prepared the OM may do the same. Don't act in comptetion, just do what is from your heart. Nothing to big or flambouyant. Simple and sweet is very charming. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

JMHO,
L.