Well, I suppose if you made it thru the last post, you can make it thru one more...Something happened today that I MUST explain to everyone that will probably clear the air a bit! but I must get my kids ready for bed right now!

I also want to tell everyone that my dad has cancer! He has had it for about 2 years now....he got some scans back yesterday that have showed his tumors have grown 50%! My mom says he is very weak and SICK! I dont think he will be here much longer! Please pray for my dad! Thanks!

mom - Waiting for your update. My dad has cancer too. I will pray for your dad, you, and your whole family.

Mom,

Hi. I've been following your threads recently. I admit I haven't read them all but hopefully I got the gist of things.

Your H is a dog. Divorce his [censored] and protect yourself and your kids! Take him to the cleaners before OC is born or OW will be first in line.

I do not apologize for being blunt.

God Bless <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

momto...

people don't yell at you because of your yelling at dad...it's perfectly understandable...
BUT (hate that word)

in the long run it only hurts YOU...
that's what people try to point out...

you are all over the spectrum with you emotions...
one billlllion percent understandabe...but it is like watching a train wreck over and over...
we can see the emotonial toll it takes on you...

over and over...
the more you flounder each time...the more you set the pattern for this being how you two communicate..

crisis after crisis....

I actually agree somewhat with JustJs comment...and should probably state that I don't think you should necessarilly go plan B...
not Plan B with a letter of I love you and want you back...

but I do believe that you interactions are way more toxic to YOU and him and you need time and space out of that and are better off until you can only communicate with mostly control and logic....that you are better off not interacting at all...

you are all over the place...not a slam....
just the facts of the turmoil you are in...

you need to back off and approach this calmly...
and until you can NO CONTACT!!!

you have definitely got to be working on many different plains here....

the filing part can always be stalled, changed, cancelled whatever...
but you need to legally establish your childrens access to what they needs...

as does the OW...but you need to do what you must...inspite of and regardless of her...
just as she needs to what she needs to do..

but you need your duck lined straight and narrow...
your three sons need your protection.....

seek the legal information you need...

you also need the time to think this through...
you need time alone...make him watch the kids at your house...and you take a pen a paper...and you journal this through all the different ways the road may take..

you and husband together...with OC and lots of contact with OP that you are part of...
you and husband together with OC and husband with contact..
you and husband with no contact with OC and OP...
many different scenarios..
many many..
and no one can decide but you..
but you must gather your thoughts and sit with each choice for a while...
and you must dig deep and seek and pray for Gods Grace to guide you as well...

your husband continues to babble...he speaks it continiously;..right now protect yourself..

if you have any contact you must do whatever it takes to be in control with no power struggle..
no push me pull me talk....

mom you need a break from this rolliecoaster more than anyone else....it is too damaging right now...

ARK

Hi Mom,

One thing I think will help you is to stop trying to control what your husband does. You have to let this go.

I know you've heard it add nauseum, but you can only control YOU. Let him go. Stop focusing on what "HE'S" doing. It's not within your control any longer, he is going to do what he's going to do regardless of the destruction it will cause. (example: possible OC).

Trying to control his actions is like trying to harness a hurricane in a bottle. Impossible and dangerous to your well being in so many ways.

If you let him go, you can start seeing things clearer, you can stop running around reacting because you won't be privy to his destruction. It won't be able to hurt you this much anymore.

Focus on controlling what YOU want. Focus on Mom's emotional health and gaining back control of that. Focus on making decisions for you and the boys, completely excluding dad.

LET HIM GO.

Jo

Dear Mom,

I am sorry to hear about your father. This is additional stress that u 2 s/b facing together as a family. Of course this is not scoring an love bank points as long as he is a WS.

Others will probably get angry knowing that you are going through your father's illness along with the A mess. Rightly so. Me too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

However, you need to focus on what you can. Be there for your parents and your children. That is more than enough stress.

Let the A run itself into the mud. They are already covered with filth. Don't play their games. You have too much at stake.

The WS is a conflict avoider and making a greater mess by messing around with the Ow. That is what it is, messing around.

Stay clean and clear of that mess. That clear mind and calm heart is critical right now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />


Hugz,
L.

I just got done reading all these posts and I have to comment. I feel exactly like I did I think when Mom posted after the MB weekend, when she found out Dad had been in contact with OW all along. She was so upset. I just remember her getting hammered on here. If it wasn't that time it was another.

I said in a recent post to Mom that I think she has been emotionally abused by her H for months now. I have posted on here before that the BS actually has PTSD. Mom has been forced to relive her pain over and over again, yet has still tried to save her M. Mom is dealing with being a mother of 3 small boys, one of which has bipolar. Has dad been around to support her? Mom has a father who has cancer. Her family lives out of town.
I am sorry, but right now I feel for mom. She has done the friggin best she can do. It's easy for all of us to look at her situation and say she could be doing it so much better. I for one probably couldn't have lasted 5 minutes with this jacka$$.

Mom, I for one respect you and everything you have gone through. If D is the path you must go down, do it with your head held high. Don't for one "F"ing second let anyone insinuate that you are the cause of you M failing. I said this the last time I felt like this, and I will say it again. It's like blaming the rape victim for being raped. If you can't stand anymore pain, then get out.

My prayers are with you, your boys, and your dad. Don't let anyone get in the way of you being with him now. I had to face what you are going through last year. HUGS!!! CV

CV55, people are not hammering Mom to harm her, but because they CARE about her. The purpose is not to beat her up, but to get her to see the role she is playing in the destruction of her own family.

Like Ark mentioned, this is like watching a train wreck in progress that could have been avoided. The good folks here really would be harming her if they didn't tell her the truth. There is no compassion in that.

It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise, than for a man to hear the song of fools.
Ecclesiastes 7:5

CV55,

Not sure who or where anyone is blaming mom. In fact, I see more support of her. What is being said is not to allow the WS to make mom enable the A.

With her father ill and the 3 children, mom does not need the OW and her crying prego stories along with a WS who can't seem to keep his pants on.

It is a hard thing and not many will tell mom as she has been told here @ MB. I was told similar and they (MBers were right). I asked for the straight up truth and they gave it to me. Some even questioned my H's recovery for several years. They were right. It took a long time and I still keep plan B in my back pocket.

Being as it is, mom has a lot on her plate. Telling her to focus on the children and her father's condition is for mom's benefit. Her energy is only sooo much and she needs to dispurse it wisely.

Ws and OW will continue their antics until no one else is willing to watch or paticipate. OW is a stinky slimy critter, not worth mom's time of day.

I respect and support mom's decisions. I also know that her heart and mind is slowly coming together. It will. It just takes time. It takes time for all of us. That is why MB here is such a great place. We each need to heal at our own rate but when we do, the support is here to do it quicker and better than if we were on our own.

JMHO,
L.

<small>[ August 19, 2004, 10:56 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

I am in TOTAL agreement with CV55.

For anyone who ever has had a parent terminally ill you all should know, that alone is enough trauma for one person.

Mom has 3 sons 2 of her sons are diagnosed ADHD and one has bipolar and on all kinds of meds. She is doing this all alone while her DH (a sorry excuse of skin right at the moment) is running around town with a butt ulgy OW, in some sort of academy award winning performance of WHY he needs to remain in contact.

I feel Mom has done an amazing job of trying to save her marriage and keep her family intact, unfortuantly she can't do it by herself.
Everyone here is quick to jump on her because she "did not" Plan B properly, Saying things to her that insenuate(sp) that she did not do everything to save her marriage. BALONEY she has done more than most.

It's tough enough being married to a physician when you dont have an affair, 3 high needs children, and a parent who is terminally ill, and possibly an OC. I could not even begin to imagine what mom is going through.

I think at this point we just need to be supportive, if Mom decides to take Dad back a month from now we just need to be here for her.

In my opinion it does not show that mom is weak or doing things "all wrong" To me the only one here lacking any character is DAD23boys.
He should thank God, if Mom even thinks twice about letting him back.

I think the only one that is close enough to the situation is Mom, I think we should trust this intelligent womans decision with the future of her son's and for herself.

Take care Mom. You Father is in my prayers as are you and the rest of your family (yes that includes you too Dad).
Good night

Too stressed for words <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

no one is saying she is wrong...
people are saying that God love her, her pain, hurt, frustration is so very raw..
that her continued interactions with her space alien husband...
hurt her...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

solve nothing
resolve nothing
and serve no healthy resolution


I don't give a rat's behind about her husband..
if she CHOOSES to kick him to the curb...that's her choice...which is just as supported as those that choose to try work things a different route...

What can not and should not be supported here is the continual pattern of her putting herself in the line of fire...and there is nothing NOTHING wrong with attempting to redirect her from her own actions that do that...

there is NO blame...
none....

she has lots of choices that are open to her...
some are good.
some are not so good...


kicking out a spouse...then calling them on the phone....probably not a good idea...it only brings more pain...
that doesn't mean shes bad or wrong...
it means hey mom...pick a different path...
protect yourself from his babble..
you are stronger than you know....

when a person gets used to tug of wars
and
back and forth babble...
i love you
i love her
i want you
i want her...

even as it is obviously unhealthy for outsiders to see...
..it actually can become the NORM to those that continually do that...

mom should KNOW that people aren't picking on her...
mom should KNOW that no one wants to see her hurting more....

and one way for her to stop hurting is to choose out and away from HIS chaos till she is strong enough not get sucked back in...

when you are in it..
sometimes you can not see it....

she is not wrong...
she and all can learn better choices and paths to take when dealing with such pain...
if you shut yourself off and down from being able to learn..
your in deeper trouble than you know

ARK

Ditto Ark. My sentiments exactly.

This is a hard road and if our skins don't get a bit tougher, we'll peel and fade away.

All to often on MB it has been seen that the BS has to take the high and harder road. As long as the WS is the WS, that's the path a BS must take in order to heal.

BS' do have choices of continuance (enabling the A w/great pain to the BS and family) or implementing a solid plan B and moving forward.

While most are here to save marriages, I doubt there are any who advocate being married to a WS. Yet that is what some of us are doing right now.

The challenge (believe it or not) is not about changing the Ws. it is about moving from a BS to a better person. One more in control of our emotions, self-confident, happy, reliable, beautiful, energetic, lively, vibrant, healthy, wealthy and wise. All this can be achieved at different levels and each BS has their own needs.

The WS can choose to join the family or watch from the sidelines as their family moves forward without them.

The WS is often left in the mud and asking why doesn't someone help them out, when they are at the same time fighting to stay in.

Sooner or later the BS realizes, the push/pull syndrome in the mud is not where the BS wants to be and in time, the BS will choose to clean up his/her act and move forward.

Mom is a smart, intelligent, talented and beautiful lady. I doubt she will be left to fend on her own for long. My H and I had the privilege to meet her (oh yea and even the WS) and I can honestly say that mom has more going for her than the WS.

Before it gets better, it will get worse. Life does not stop with the good and bad just because we are dealing with the A fog problems. Nope, life goes on and so must we.

Mom, we all want to see you get through this and know you will.

Lots of hugz and support being sent your way.

Love,
L.

Mom,

I've been following your story here and there for quite a while. The chaos and back and forth is painful to read. The hurt and anger in the tone in your voice is so raw, and completely understandable.

The turn of events is my worst nightmare and hope I never have to deal with an OC...

BUT (as ark so eloquently put it)...the disrespect that pours from your posts is overwhelming. And it doesn't stop there, the replies you have posted on here that you've actually said to D23B would stop a grizzly in his tracks. You are a strong woman (you have to be with all that testosterone around) and have used that ferocity to attack Dad.

I should know, I am the grand High Poobah of disrespect towards my H. The things you have written, I have said. And taken from my own life, I know you say these things in anger, and you get angry quite a bit. DJ's were the biggest and first thing I had to get over...and I'm still working on it.

No one is blaming you for venting on here, but it doesn't stop here, does it? The DJ's fly when you feel threatened and hurt...you want to hurt him back...no one is blaming you...BUT (again) if you wanted to be M, you need to cut out the DJ's. It is as if you have been trying your darndest to drive him away, to hurt him back, and to make the OW look good. You have been Dbuilding.

Tough words. And I needed tough words (thank you JL) at a time when I was righteously indignant at my H (how dare he) and had to honestly look at myself and say "How dare I", "What gives me the right to talk to my H this way", and to review my behavior and realize it borders (if not stepping over the border) of abuse.

I can tell you feel attacked, because you are attacking back, your defense. BACK OFF! There is a way to behave without reverting back to anger and DJs!!!

OK MB friends, let me try to further clarify my thoughts here and my feelings. I don't have 1/4 of the experience of the wise folks here at MB that have helped me over the months, such as Melody and Ark. On this situation it is a gut thing. I hope you will allow me to share my feelings, they aren't right or wrong, just my feelings.

Most of the posts I think have been supportive. I don't have any problem with people here on MB being tough in a kind way. Yes, maybe Mom has had difficulty following Plan B perfectly. I haven't been following her story on the other site to know exactly what has happened over the months. But this I do know, her H is one heck of a lier. I think he has convinced her many times he is leaving the OW. Being a trusting person, mom has believed him. Thus broke Plan B, only to have him betray her once again.

In many A books, specifically "Not Just Friends", it says when a WS has certain personality disorders, it might not be possible to heal the M. I looked up Narcissistic Personality Disorder in my "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders." I don't know if this criteria fits dad. Mom, if you're reading this, only you will know if you see him in this.

1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance
2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3) believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
4) requires excessive admiration
5) has a sense of entitlement, ie., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
6) is interpersonally exploitive, ie., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
7) lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
8) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

In order to be diagnosed as Narcissistic Personality Disorder the person should display five or more of the above behaviors. IF mom is dealing with THAT, she has had a very hard road to travel.

Now back to what I found extremely disturbing when I read this thread last night. I don't want to point the finger at anyone in particular, so I just will globally talk here. The excessive use of "YOU" statements. I consider that a huge DJ. Judging mom for venting on here. Well then you might as well judge me, because mom is right. She has shown far less disrespect towards her H than MOI here. Venting on here has allowed me personally to do one heck of a Plan A. If I wasn't allowed to do that my H would be hearing it. This MB site has been a way of processing these intense feelings of pain, so I can try to save my M. I believe that mom has done the same thing here and shouldn't be judged for it. The idea of feeling sorry for the OW in her case is disgusting to me. This woman has not let up for one minute. God only knows where my M would be if my H had a OW like that. Ours was bad enough, but at least she went away.

Whether mom should now do the perfect Plan B, or cut her losses and D dad, I don't know. What I do know is even if she had done the perfect Plan B I'm not sure it would have made a difference. The bottom line is does SHE think that trying that again is the best thing for her and her boys? Yes, divorce is terrible for children. Only mom knows if the damage being done to them now would be greater or lesser if she Ds dad and moves on with her life.

Again, these are just my feelings. I don't mean to offend anyone here. CV

I have to agree with CV on this one. NOT ALL, and I would never venture into ALL, but there have been some posts on this thread that literally BASH MOM.

I think it's fair to say at this point M23B should never be insulted here or anywhere.

Nobody here, NOBODY knows they wouldn't do the SAME thing if they weren't standing in the SAME shoes.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not see where you have done any real work at saving your marriage. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think you, just as much as your WH, are assisting, although not intentionally of course, in perpetuating this affair.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> the disrespect that pours from your posts is overwhelming. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There you go. There are no verbal intonations when we type written words. They can easily be taken out of context, which makes it even more important to chose your words wisely.

I hope I didn't offend anyone.

Mom -

I cannot tell you how many times during my separation from my FWH that ark wrote those same posts to me. Don't power struggle. Remove from his chaos. Choose out. Be a good mother to my boys and good to myself.

One of my boys has Asperger's Syndrome - simply put, a high-functioning disorder on the Autism spectrum. The counselors he has seen over the years told me and H the best thing DS had going for him was that H and I were together and he lived in a happy home. Guess what happened when H up and left us for HW? It wasn't pretty.

I kept thinking, "How could you take away your DS's best chance at having a successful life?" And it made me angry. Then, finally, I began to understand what everyone was telling me - all the same things they are telling you. This thread is not really about whether to D or not to D, it is about YOU. And it's not about right or wrong, it is about using your energy in the best possible way for you and your family.

Since my H has come home, you know the funniest thing I learned? That as SOON as I removed myself from H's chaos, him and HW had nothing to talk about! They used to talk about how upset I was, the email I sent, the phone conversations we had, how I was feeling, what my plans were, blah blah blah.

I asked my H, "When I removed myself from all of that, what did you guys possibly have to talk about?" He said, "We didn't really. She would tell me about what her daycare kids did that day, but that was pretty much it." Hmmmmmmmmmmm. Interesting. Did you know right now you are probably their number 1 topic of interesting conversation?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mom said: Our son's, we have counseling sessions to attend toghether for them, etc... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And as far as counseling appointments, do you really think any good is done with both of you there? I say, tell him since he (WH) isn't interested in having the boys, and you pretty much take care of everything anyway, that you will be going to the counselor appointments by yourself. Do not involve him! It is slowing you down! He is not a help, but a hinderance!

My life got REAL simple when I let H go. Me and my boys and my mother (who has 100% dimentia and lives in a nursing home). That's it. And our dog and the chinchilla. And I got an army of girlfriends around me, and saw an attorney and found out what I'd have to do to keep my home for me and the boys, and I was off and running.

Get that monkey off your back, girlie. He doesn't deserve ANY rides from you right now. Take care of YOU. Have SOME one watch the boys, and go do a 1/2 day at a spa - massage, aromatherapy, toe nails, whatever - then go home and begin journaling. Gather yourself back to yourself.

Personally, I saw so many !!!!! exclamation points !!!!!! in your posts when you were talking about D, it makes me think it is a decision made on an emotional level that is not sustainable. If you make that decision while feeling all !!!!!!, you might regret it later. That is all I am saying. I know when I am !!!!!!!, I try not to even talk to the person I am !!!!!!! at, because I know I will say/do something(s) I will regret later.

I wish I lived close enough to just hold you while you sobbed the tears that need to come out of you. I am so sorry for your pain. Please keep posting here, keep learning. It is a journey, not a destination, whether you D or not, you have LOTS of healing to do.

SS

<small>[ August 20, 2004, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: Spider Slayer ]</small>

CV,

I have always thought that Dad has narcisisstic tendiencies. I'm not a psychiatrist, so who knows...but I have often wondered the same thing. If he is truly narcissistic...without treatment, this cycle will never end...FOR HIM...but that doesn't mean mom must be trapped by his sick entitlement.

For the last six months from the time she registered, on both sites....I've followed Mom's story. I think I can safely say that I have read all of her posts....sometimes replying, sometimes not. I think what many people are commenting about on this thread is the pattern that has emerged. It's not a healthy one. It's a pattern of venting without productivity, inability to to take control rather than BE controlled, escalation of drama, and an inability to enforce healthy boundaries.....all of which end up enabling the affair and perpetuating the carnage.

Mom's situation is tragic and I think about her so often. I feel great regard and sympathy for her...but I would be remiss and irresponsible not to encourage her to find a healthy way to approach the challenges her life. Sympathy is necessary...but she also needs direction. If what she was doing was working in any way for her...I would champion her methods...but they don't work. They keep her a prisoner of this man's weakness.

I want to avoid the pitfall of creating an environment of drama that can become addictive when folks are hurting. There is a something in psychology called "secondary gain" that situations like this can create. So it's important to me, that I support mom...without creating an opportunity for the sympathy to be more important than the progress.

In the months ahead....especially with the added stress of her daddy's cancer....it's more important than ever that we EMPOWER her...as well as care for her and support her. I completely agree that disrespectful judgements don't help that...and it won't help her trust those who are try to help her find her own strength and are keeping her best interests in mind. She is trapped in a toxic cycle and I also agree with the folks who say that dad has reached the state of being abusive. She must somehow find a path to steer her way OUT of his chaos and captain her own ship. She must begin ACTING instead of REACTING. So far, she hasn't been able to do that.

I care about mom....in fact I care about her enough to tell her that her method of dealing with this situation is enabling her husband to hurt her. Without consistent action, and just a continuous pattern of reactions...she will be caught in this "web" of deceit and dysfunction for alot longer. I can't bear that. So I pray everyday that she can find the peace to detach and deal with this situation with the grace I know she possesses.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> committedandlovingit ...I am sorry, I dont understand where you are getting at??? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am getting at this..

If he's a bad father...he's a bad father to ALL his kids. She could be clueless and you too. You BOTH want him. Yet, she shouldn't want him because he's no type of father...according to you??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Don't you see what I am saying? YOU still want him and are willing to work it out. You sound sanctimonious when you want to save HER child from the likes of him. What about YOUR kids?

I think that you are embroiled in the drama of the entire thing. You have "kicked him out" so many times that I fully expected this. Your actions don't sound empowering as much as shrewish <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> (mho). There is a BIG difference. You CANNOT control him. You can only control yourself and your posts do not reflect that.

It amazes me that people are too weak to do a Plan B. I sometimes think it's because not only is it "inconvenient"...but it stops contributing to the drama which has become a way of life (bordering on dependence).

I am not saying that you are the cause of the affair. Nor am I saying that you are the cause of the demise of this marriage.

What I am saying is that you are contributing to this mad cycle.

You came to a website seeking help...you even counseled with SH. Now, how much of that have you implemented successfully? I know of a few things that you were instructed to do (from your past posts) but you were determined to tweak it to fit you. SH instructed you NOT to post and you stopped for awhile...but now right back at it.

Yes, you can take advice or leave it...it just makes me wonder if this isn't just a place to vent all your frustrations...and if that's the case, just lay it out there. NO ADVICE NEEDED...JUST WANTING TO VENT should be included in the title so that we know. Or I should say "I" know. That way I won't be a irritant to you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />


Now back to what I found extremely disturbing when I read this thread last night. I don't want to point the finger at anyone in particular, so I just will globally talk here. The excessive use of "YOU" statements. I consider that a huge DJ. Judging mom for venting on here.

CV55,

The "YOU" statements come about because SHE is the one posting here. Her WS isn't. She can only change herself...not her WS. To join her posse blasting her H only adds fuel to her fire in such an unhealthy way. The approach of "yes, he's doing so and so...but let's see what it is that YOU need to do to stop this cycle" should be done. We can't exactly tell her what it is that HE needs to do and how to MAKE him do it...at least I can't. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

The only reason that I said that she is full of LB behavior is because of her posts and what she says that she said..what she says that she did...that's all I have to go on. She has been guilty of some pretty bad behavior...yes yes yes...HIS behavior is worse (infidelity) but it doesn't let her off the hook for HER own bad behavior.

If he ever posted again he would hear the YOU statments also.

This isn't about sides...is it? There are no sides...they both contribute in their own ways...some heinous (infidelity) and some not so henious (LBs).

JMHO
committed

betrayed,

I'm not understanding what the insults are? I am replying to you because you had used one of my statements. Of any of them, I think my statement was probably the most disrespectful, showed a judgement call (who am I to say what is overwhelming?) but I'm not reading the insults...

What I'm reading are confrontations to what M23B writes about what she wants and what she writes about her actions. I am reading confrontations about the advice she has received from professionals, and what she has actually implemented. I am reading questions posters are giving Mom to really look at her actions.

No one deserves to be abused, but a true friend will kick me in the butt when I am stuck...and by that I mean honestly tell me what they think in the hopes it will help me see out of my predicament.

Often it's the confrontations in life we learn from...

Mom
Tried to call <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

You have mail <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />