This is my first time posting something & I have a long story, but I'll try to keep it short. I have read a lot from this site & it has been helpful.

I am the OW & the Betraying Spouse. I have known the OM for 2 1/2 years, as long as I've been married. I'm 24 & no children. I was "happily married" b/f our A, but my love for my husband has never been very strong. I've always thought that I'd be fine w/o him, but I married him b/c of how much he loved me & I didn't want to be single. (dumb reasons, I know) OM & I became good friends very quickly & have had a PA since Jan. He's been married for 9yrs. He had sex w/ his W b/f marriage, but then broke off the engagement b/c he didn't want to spend the rest of his life w/ her. She got very sick & they were church kids, so he says he felt guilted into marrying her. Now they have 3 lovely children, a house, cars, etc. together...
We were connected through our church. I was the Pastor's secretary & his sons teacher, & he was a deacon. As our friendship got stronger, both of our spouses got jealous & our pastor became involved. We couples were not supposed to do anything w/ eachother anymore, until his wife wasn't so jealous. We thought we were over it, but as soon as we were friends again, our spouses were jealous again. This time, though, we just started talking on the phone when they weren't around. Neither one of us thought it would ever lead into adultery, but it did. We continued until April, when we felt too guilty to keep hiding our affair, knowing our positions in church, etc. were hurting. At the end of April, we decided to tell our pastor & then he could help us get through whatever was to follow. At the same time, we'd decided that we'd be giving up so much when he found out, that we ought to just plan on staying together. So, we confessed and stayed together.
Immediately, our spouses told everyone in our families & a few at church. We stayed together for 3 days, & then decided to try to do "what's right" b/c we were being bombarded w/ phone calls & visits of people begging us to give eachother up for what's right. He went back home & my husband & I moved to IN (we were in UT). W/in a week, the OM & I were back in contact & w/in 2 weeks, he'd come to IN to take me back w/ him. For 3 days I wrestled w/ whether or not I should go back w/ him & finally decided we needed to stay w/ our spouses. After one week, I changed my mind & he flew me out to UT. I was w/ him 1 1/2 wks, when his wife said that if I didn't move back w/ my husband, she was going to make sure he had no rights w/ the kids, etc. He decided this time that we needed to go back to our spouses. So, I moved to TX w/ my husband, to a place where we had close friends & a pastor that really wanted to work w/ me, while he moved back w/ his family, though he still had his apt. I was heartbroken, but I thought that someday I'd thank him for making that decision. By the end of a week, though, we were back in contact. (not very much at first) After a little while, he came out to TX & we spent a day together. By the end of the day, I decided we needed to stop again & so we agreed. 3 days later, we were back at it again. 2 wks later, he was down in TX, asking me to move back w/ him, which I almost did this time, but decided again to try to stay w/ our spouses. He flew back to UT & in a few days we were on the phone/net again! This time I decided that I was just going to go w/ him & he was going to make the final arrangements, when my mom convinced me to come to MA & move in w/ my parents until my mind was clearer.
Meanwhile, his wife is only waiting for me to get there to divorce him, but she's decided that it'd be much better for their kids if she gave him a lot of freedom w/ visits, etc. My husband has finally given up on me & expects me to divorce him. Still, keeping form w/ my indecisiveness, I'm not sure what to do. Right now, I'm living w/ my parents. Today was the first day that I've not been w/ either man. In order to stay in my parents' home, I'm not allowed to use their phones/computers to contact him. I've been walking to pay phones to call him. Everyone we know knows about our situation & most are telling us that we might as well have an extended period of time together to find out. The OM is ready for both of us to get divorces & remarry. I am scared of being so young & getting a divorce, afraid that he'll lie/cheat on me eventually, feel guilty for all sins involved, etc.
He wrote in here saying that I wasn't proving my love for him & he was thinking about suicide. In the four month period that I've moved away from him, we've both considered suicide, me more than him, but neither one of us is going to anymore. We have gone so far...We have both had a lot of counsellors & tried alot to get over eachother. There are alot more details I could give, but I think that's all that's necessary right now. I hope I can get some responses tonight...I'm supposed to give him a final decision in the near future.

So..what is the decision that you are trying to make, exactly?

--Noodle

So... uhm, why are you afraid he would cheat on you?

I'm glad that you have your parents, honestly, they seem to be the only one in your situation with any willpower. Now, why is it you respect your parent's rules of NC, but not your husbands? I think you need to seriously reconsider your priorities in life. With all of this talk about church and both of your roles in this all, I would think that something in all that would ring true for you.

Oh well, with the way you've faked recovery for so long now, I'm guessing you are done for...you can't maintain no contact from 1,000's of miles apart with a husband committed to you and your marriage, why would you be able to do it now that your husband is fed up and on his way out the door. I hope he finds a woman that can appreciate a man that can committ to his word and family and sticks to it.

Dear mllc,

here is my 2 cents.

It is time to stop the roller coaster that is currently your life. Pull back to yourself. Get settled. Being with your parents sounds like a good idea. Stop calling the OM. Your life is full of drama and high emotion but you are going to have to live with this stuff forever. Of course your love for your H looks boring--it is nothing compared to the excitement of an A. How dramatic for your lover to travel the country to bring you back. How will you feel when he is doing that for another woman? Will you want to live with the fact that you helped break up two marriages? How do you know what your feelings will be for the OM when you are living everyday life?

The fact that he is pressuring you for a decision right away is a bad sign. Love is patient and kind--your realtionship with this man doesn't sound like either. You are young and have a full life ahead of you (actually this is true for all of us!) Take your time. Don't rush. Sort things out. Stay with those who you know truly love you (your parents).

Gillian
(I am the BS)
married 11 years
2 kids
d-day1 12/18/03
d-day 2 7/7/04

Actually, I don't know...

Everyone is saying this is my last chance. If I move back w/ him, then my husband will start looking for a different wife & my family & friends will not accept me as such.

He wants me to leave my family & move out there w/ him. I've already tried to stay away from him. I do believe I love him w/ all my heart & he's who I want to grow old w/ him, but I'm afraid to take the final plunge.

So, I guess...Do I move in w/ him, planning on us both getting divorces or not?

okay.. I think you read this board name wrong...

MARRIAGE BUILDERS

not excuse to break up your marriage.

Wow. Did you really come in here, ask for advice from people to continue to cheat on your husband and move in with the OM? Wow, why don't you ask your parents what to do? Or the president? It sounds like you had a kabillion phone calls from people telling you to stand by your husband, and no one seems to have told you to go to the OM, so you keep asking the question. Grow up. The only answer to all of this is put a clamp on your ankles and control yourself for more than a week. Grow up.

Btw, why would you want to ask us, your OM is telling you what you want to hear, why not just listen to his advice...oh, that is right, because he is trying to get out of his own marriage as well. Unbelievable.

mllc, what exactly are you looking for from us?

Wayward spouses (WS) are usually welcome here if they're trying to work on their marriages. Sure, they may get some hard truths said to them, but in general we are glad they are here for help.

it seems that you are looking for someone to tell you that a decision to leave your marriage, break up another and marry your A partner is A-OK. I have to be honest and tell you that's not going to happen here.

Do you want to try and work on your M? Are you looking for ways to get through the period of withdrawal from your OM? What kind of support do you want from us?

PS Regardless of what you want, I'm glad I read your post. It gives great insight into the mind of a WS.

I am going to tell you something that will surprise you, and that you will have trouble believing, and that I bet no one else has said: It is virtually impossible to have an actual marriage to the OM that would be as good as the one you can have with your husband, if you follow Harley's Plan for Recovery as outlined in "Surviving an Affair". I could not possibly take the time to detail all the reasons why, but God has come out squarely against both Adultery and Divorce, for the simple reason that they hurt you and your spouse. Any time God says "Don't" in the Bible, you can pretty safely add "...hurt yourself." without changing the meaning very much, if at all.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...afraid that he'll lie/cheat on me eventually... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior, so that is an entirely resaonable fear. It is also quite likely that you will cheat on him.

What about he fear that he will dump you after a few weeks or months because he misses his children? He has not exactly been a stable person lately, has he?

I was going to tell you to ask God what you should do, but I don't believe you are listening to Him, and my own experience was that asking God when I wasn't ready to listen to His answer was pointless. I mean really, Who do you think is sending you all those church friends telling you to do the right thing? What does the Bible say? It's not like God's opinion is not clear. If you won't listen to Him, why listen to me?

If you need a human voice, however, let me say this: I was trapped in a loveless marriage and wanted a divorce. I thought of killing my wife to escape. I thought of suicide. Every time she took a business trip, I hoped the plane would crash. I fought those feelings and thoughts, and tried to fulfill my responsibilities as a husband and father, because I thought that was what God wanted, but I was sliding down into a pit, and I wasn't really paying much attention to God. In fact, I wondered how he could want me to remain in this miserable marriage. Then... my wife told me about her affair. You would have thought that I would have shouted for joy, because I had a "theologically acceptable" reason for divorce. I could escape!!!

But I didn't.

In Malachi it says "God hates divorce". Jesus ALLOWS divorce in the case of adultery, but does not command, or even commend, it. I had a sneaking suspicion (which later proved correct) that in addition to the obvious failings she had as a wife, there was something I was not doing as a husband that I should be, and that if we divorced, I would never know what that was, until/unless I found myself in a similar situation 10 years down the road. So, instead of demanding a divorce, she and I did the hard work of building a really good marriage (no it's not great yet, but we are heading that direction) - work we had never done before. Work that we quite literally did not know how to do until we read SAA and started practicing with the help of a GOOD marriage counselor (see the link in my signature line for info on how to identify one.)

So, it seems to me you both owe your spouses at least a year (two is more realistic, since it will take most of that time just for them to recover from the affair, and become semi-normal) of trying to have a great marriage, with no contact between you, before you make any decisions. If he loses his kids over you, he will blame you, once the fog clears. And it will. Not exactly a great start for a new relationship, is it? That and the lies and deceptions and faithlessness you have demonstrated to your current spouses which will raise completely justified trust issues that will not easily go away.

Chances are, if you get divorced, you will not marry the OM. Chances are, if you marry the OM, you will be divorced from him within 5 years. Chances are, if you stay married, it will not be a very good marriage. And, if by some miracle you do overcome all the obstacles and have a good marriage, there is no way to escape the devastating consequences the divorce will have for his children, and you will have to live with the knowledge of the pain that YOU have caused his children and your ex-spouses, with the knowledge that if you had treated your ex-spouses the way you now treat each other, you never would have had an affair or wanted divorces in the first place.

Do the ethical, moral and right thing, and do the work with your current spouses. Start reading through "Surviving an Affair" WITH your husband. Discuss each chapter and how it does or does not apply to you. Do ALL the exercises. Find a GOOD MC.

Start today.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do believe I love him w/ all my heart & he's who I want to grow old w/ him, but I'm afraid to take the final plunge.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are 24 years old and you already "know" that you want to grow old with a man that is willing to throw away one wife and 3 children...

What will you do when "Mr. Perfect" decides to throw you away for a newer trophy wife???

Marriages born from adultery don't usually make it... there are exceptions, but not many.

Semper Fi,
RIF90

mllc..

I am going to be uncharacteristically gentle with you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

1) I very much doubt that your husband is going to be looking for a new wife in the same way one looks for a new car.

2) Your family and friends will love you every bit as much as they ever did, but it is true that they will think less of you, as you have been making some very poor choices.

3) You should be afraid to take this plunge..there be dark creatures in this murky water, and he is likely one of them. Where is his concern for those he has so abused? Perhaps his wife and he had issues [which you were absolutely a large part of] but what exactly are his children supposed to be paying for? He is showing a foolish, selfish and immature heart..right out in the open for all to see, but you have shut your eyes.

4) You have not tried to stay away from him. I promise that you have not. You have tried to legitamize and rationalize and put up a front so as to not suffer any social consequences but you have not truly attempted to abandon this affair as though wolves were licking at your heels..which, by the way, they are. You have however tried to stay away from your husband, and you have been successfull. Use the same tactics. Harden your heart towards this man..look at him critically..be distant..do not have sex with him...think about the ugliness of what the two of you have done together rather than try to force it to be beautifull and special. That ought to do the trick.

5) Do I actually have to tell a churchgoer about the fickleness of your heart? 'nuff said.

6) How about the fickleness of his?

7) Why would leaving your husband be an automatic default to moving in with him? Why can the choices not be separate? With plenty of time in between? Do you not see that you are very much leaving one man for another man..do not even attempt to sell yourself on the idea that your dissatisfaction in your marriage is not directly related to your marriage having to compete with an affair.

8) Let's be honest and frank..if your feelings of guilt [bad] outweighed your feelings of excitement [good] you would already be done with this. You are in a drama. Your very own little Romeo and Juliet scenario..but what about the fallout on other people? Tell me about this mans wife of nine years..don't tell me how he never really wanted to marry her...tell me about how gracious she has been in trying to still provide a way for him to see his children [she seems more concerned about it than he does..red flag]. Tell me about her face..how does she look at you now? Is she hurt by your betrayal? Do you think that she lies awake at night thinking about her husband naked and inside of you? Do you picture her crying, and dry heaving on her bathroom floor while the two of you stare into each others eyes and think fluffy warm thoughts? Do you think you have the right to inflict that sort of hell on another woman? Tell me about her humiliation and her grief. Nine years...so when they were getting married, you were doing what? Algebra? [whistles] Do you realize what a monster you have become? Do you see a good future here? Will his children not hold this against you..uh..forever? Are you willing to come between this man and his children? Would you want any man who would choose you over his own children?

So here's the thing. You already know that you are doing the wrong thing. Do you want permission? Exemption from the inevitable consequences? Someone to tell you that this is unique and special, and justified...because it is you..and it is him..and the rules don't apply to the two of you because you make each others heart go all pitter pat. Why exactly are the two of you considering suicide again? To assauge what remains of your conscience? I came, I conquered, but I feel really bad about it? Please..you are spoon feeding each other intensity and licking the spoon to get every last drop. You don't need to kill yourself, no one and nothing has been able to stand in the way of you wreaking total destruction in lots of peoples lives. See, you have what you want..just not the way you want it. Such is life. You know you are doing the wrong thing here. You want to do it anyway. Is there anything to be said that could persuade you to do otherwise? I'd be happy to say it.

You are addicted to the high you get from this affair, nothing more. I hate to break this to you, but people do not behave this way out of love. You closely resemble a crack addict in both word and deed. Is that flattering? Do you like to think of yourself that way?

So you are supposed to give him an answer tomorrow. I'm going to extend you the benefit of the doubt [really extend as nothing you have expressed thus far backs this up] and presume that you came here in desperation. That you realise that you sit at the helm of another decision, and that you realise that you want to do the wrong thing deep into the marrow of your bones and you want someone, anyone, to talk you out of it. The unfortunate truth is that we can't. There is nothing I can say that will make your withdrawl from this high any less painfull. Nothing to wake you from your stupor and let you see what you have been doing for what it is, rather than what you want it to be. Nothing can undo what has been done. The only thing that remains is for you to decide just how much further you are willing to go down what is obviously the wrong path. I suspect that you will choose to continue this relationship at this point. You will also probably suffer for it. You are insisting on it. You can't get around it, and you refuse to avoid it, so I really don't know how to do more for you than what I have already done. Imagine that you have a scale..and on this scale you put all the negative aspects of this affair on one side...and on the other you have only this "it makes me feel good". If the scale tips towards the affair rather than away from it..now you know this about yourself. What is most important to you, is that you feel good at all costs. If you are willing to accept this about yourself, and follow the logical conclusion that you have found someone else just like you...hey..feel free to enjoy the ride before the train derails, but that's about all you are gonna get. A fast ride, then *boom*. Your decision, many lives to be impacted. Do what you can live with.

Wow, Noodle, I sure hope I never get on the receiving end of your ire. But I ditto everything you wrote.

mllc, another couple of gentle tweaks for you:

1. Dramatic suicide gestures are blatant manipulation. But they need to be taken very seriously, just the same. Some people can talk themselves into actually doing it. Just like they can talk themselves into justifications for a sleazy affair in the first place. You and rrh both sound as if you are spoiled 16 year olds. Perhaps your parents should commit you for evaluation.

2. Quote: Everyone we know knows about our situation & most are telling us that we might as well have an extended period of time together to find out. The OM is ready for both of us to get divorces & remarry. I am scared of being so young & getting a divorce, afraid that he'll lie/cheat on me eventually, feel guilty for all sins involved, etc.

For you and he being church-going people (him a deacon, no less), you seem to ignore a lot of what you represented to others. To a hypocritical degree. In fact, in the early church, public adultery was one of only two unforgivable sins. So what are you thinking? Do you plan to marry rrh in a church somewhere? Who will have you? The Moonies?

T

PS: He will definitely lie and cheat on you eventually. I would bet money on it: 97 to 1 odds.

Is there anybody out there that was a WS that had every intention of marrying the OM & the OM had the same intentions, but then you decided to "do what's right"? If so, could you please explain what you did and how things are with your original spouse now?

I am the OM in mllc's life. We have been keeping contact with each other on the phone almost constantly, talking over and over again about what we are going to do.

Some questions I have:

1. mllc and I have gone so far in our relationship that we feel we want to and should choose each other and suffer whatever consequences come...rather than choose what everyone says is right.
We have heard the doom and gloom stories of how we will not be happy and we will not be faithful to each other. Why shouldn't we just end all the pain we are causing our spouses (by bouncing back and forth) and choose each other and then use Marriage Builders as our guide to make sure we never fall into anything like this again with each other?

2. Isn't it ok to be totally addicted to the person you are married to (or are going to be married to? In this case, mllc & rrh)

3. I have read and heard from a lot of people about how "statistics" show we will not remain together. Where do these statistics come from? Doesn't unsubstantiated "statistics" just add up to a bunch of opinion from self-proclaimed "experts"? Where's the proof?

4. Has anyone here ever heard of someone divorcing their spouse, marrying their lover and achieving happiness for the rest of their lives?

5. Can a father be a better parent to his kids by leaving their mother rather than sticking around and subjecting the kids to years of fighting and obvious discontentment?

6. Is there a guide to all the abbreviations used on this site or do you all just make it up as you go?

I may be flame-bait, but let me have it...
I've got thick skin...
...and I am truely interested in answers, intelligent answers.

rrh

Saved March 11, 1984.
Married October 29th, 1995.
Three Children: One girl (7 years old), Two boys (4 and 2).
I am American, wife is Taiwanese.
I am 35, wife is 31, mllc is 24.
I am currently living by myself in an apartment, 15 minutes away from wife and kids. mllc is 2400 miles away.
Last word from mllc is that she is comming with me the next time I go get her. (This Friday)

<small>[ August 22, 2004, 04:13 AM: Message edited by: rrh ]</small>

Ooops...

<small>[ August 22, 2004, 05:26 AM: Message edited by: Isleepwithacat ]</small>

Why shouldn't we just end all the pain we are causing our spouses (by bouncing back and forth)

Yes, why don't you??

and then use Marriage Builders as our guide to make sure we never fall into anything like this again with each other?

well that's a little tricky...because you didn't FALL into anything...all of this...is of your own creation...

you alone...set the path this way...followed it up with actions, emotions, and energy...
all of which you both robbed from your spouses and children...

you created the bond by applying yourselves to it...
you created the chasms between your spouses by applying yourselves to it....

it works both ways..
if you put the same energy into your own marriages...they to would become products of your actions....

though it's much easier to claim victimship to some cosmic force that brought your two souls together....

Isn't it ok to be totally addicted to the person you are married to

problem with that is that there isn't really any addiction out there that is very healthy...
infact to claim such addictiveness....as a ratonale...means right off the bat your children will suffer...

for there in lies all the justification in the world...I am addicted

those three children are of your creation...and you alone should stand in great protectiveness of causing them harm in this world...
and yet under the title addiction you are willing to...

1. FORCE them to have a step-mom...a complete stranger in their lives....
and in your actions to tell them..I choose this stranger over you...

that's what your children will see...though i know you think they will only see your love and happiness for eachother....

children don't quite see the world that way...
aren't quite capable of being so non-egocentric...
which becomes really difficult to teach to them as you and your new wife and their NEW MOM move in such an egocentric vortex.

children will learn that people are replacable...
It will become the fear that nags them at night...that the world out there is not safe...and neither is their home...
children will harbor fears that if mom is so replacable...so must they be...

they will fake "hapiness" for you based soley on the fear that if the "displease" as mom did...you will replace...

infact being so young ...you and your OP will most likely have more children...correct?...
and you own children will feel replaced and feel like a visitor with their own dad..

step mom will 'tolerate' your children while she will be totally smitten with her own...and the void will grow in your children lives and hearts......and the fear of being replaced will become reality....

you are telling your children...that you are now going to be forced to visit me (dad)....and spend "quality time" every other weekend...for I your dad no longer value the children enough to be there for them day and night..just certain times that don't interupt my addiction

for I am addicted
and in love
and want to be "happy"...

and then when and if mom remarries...
you will now have taught your children...that you too are replacable...
dads and moms come and go...
all in the name of adult happiness....

your marriages suffer not because of outside forces...but in direct consequances of your actions...
and it is our actions that define who we are
what we believe
and how we treat those in our lives...

love given only to one, at a price of such pain and disrespect and lack of common decency to all others is tainted....


He wrote in here saying that I wasn't proving my love for him & he was thinking about suicide.
that's so manipulative
that's so selfish
that's such an abuse of the word love it speaks volumes of misunderstanding of good healthy relationship.......

love me OR I will kill myself...
and YOU will be responsible for my death... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

someone who does not value their own selves based alone on being a child of God..entitled to the precious gift of life...has no ability to love another...selflessly..it is driven by selfishness...

love me or else.....

for they do not even like nor love themselves...

Is it a good and healthy thing to be forced in to proving your love....to someone under the threat of suicide...

exactly how does one prove their love????

hmmm
make him happy or he will threaten harm...

boy if that isn't a big fat red flag to hit you between the eyes...yikes...I honestly don't know what is.....

but i understand...you two are different

why does humankind practice such unkindness?
why do we invite such chaos into our own lives and to those of our children?

faith without deeds is dead dead dead....


ARK

<small>[ August 22, 2004, 06:35 AM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]</small>

On the stat that most 2nd marriages fail, I did a quick search and found this:
-------------------------

Re-Marriage and Divorce
Since the quoted study was released in 1996 the rates for re-marriage and divorce have changed dramatically according to reports made in the New Jersey Parenting Education program. (This is an educational class that both parties in a dissolution, that involves children, where no restraining orders issued, are required to attend.) The statistics clarify that the rebound relationship knows no age limits.

In the 1996 national study:
50% get remarried within 1st three years of divorce;
Length of the second marriage was less than 7 years
Currently in New Jersey:
80% will get remarried within 1st three years;
75% of these will get divorced within 3 years of that marriage.
----------

I did find startling other stats about the effects on children from a divorce that perhaps I should have cut and brought.....like higher divorce rates when they marry. That should not have surprized me because I already think parents should stay married for their kids. Others disagree with me, but I think a two-parent home is unquestionably the best, and divorcing teaches kids they can walk away from committments and responsibilities.

Please respond... noodle, ark^^, anyone...

I agree we didn't FALL into anything. We have chosen this. I also agree that if we put the same energy into our own marriages, we, most likely, wouldn't have let this happen. But it has happened. And now we are looking at years and maybe entire futures of distrust from our spouses.

The thing is, we were never totally committed to our spouses. All the pretending we have been doing has been with our spouses over the years.

There are huge gaps between our spouses in the area of communication. Huge gaps. Over the years I have tried to be more understanding, be more patient, spend more time with my spouse...and then I find myself calling my brother-in-law on the way home from work, talking to him on the way home, getting home and talking to him on the cell for 3 or 4 hours. Then when we're done, I lock myself in my office to pay bills or surf or do some work or play a game. This has gone on for almost 9 years. Whenever we are with a group of people, I never find myself standing with my wife talking to the same people all involved in one big conversation. Instead, I'm over talking to a bunch of people and my wife is somewhere else. (I don't even think about where she is or what she's doing. I'm just happy to be serving myself a heaping helping of conversation which I know I can't get at home.)
The only thing that has been holding my wife and I together is the kids. Is it really fair to stay together just for them?
I grew up with a couple of families who, the parents of the kids had nothing to do with each other besides criticizing each other and the kids have turned out terrible.
Why can't we separate and spare the kids all the bad examples?
Why can't mllc and I be careful with my children and make sure we do everything we can to provide a supportive, loving home for them to see?
My wife and I agree that any amount of negativity we feed the children about the other will just come back to hurt us all. Why can't we make the best of this new situation and protect the children that I have and that mllc are going to have from self destruction by being careful?
I know I seem totally selfish, I admit I am. But can't the right approach to this help us avoid the damage everyone is practically guaranteeing will happen?

One other thing. Ark^^ wrote about the psychological damage my children will face by constantly wondering when they will be replaced, constantly wondering when mom is going to get rid of them, etc. Does the same thing happen to children who have had a parent die? Do they constantly think that someone else is going to die? How do they cope? Everyone tells them how tragic this is but they will be fine after time. Why can't the children from a divorce situation be fine after a time?
Isn't it all in how you handle it?

Oh, one other, other thing. mllc and I have been talking about this decision for approximately 5 months. We have taken into careful consideration everything that has come our way. This has not been a situation where we decided to "just do it" because it feels good and we want it. mllc and I have been pretty mean to each other as different topics have come up and yet we always reach an agreement. We want a partnership where things are enthuiastically agreed upon. We want to have everything reasoned out before we take this final step and we know that it will be harder than we can imagine (by a factor of 10).
So, does this sound like something that is going to fail? I guess that's my largest hangup. I feel this has been analyzed between us and we can handle it. That's why I don't give up under the tremendous pressure all our friends and family are putting us under. Actually, I tell then, "You couldn't possibly put us under more pressure than what we have already put ourselves under."

Doesn't this sound like it will work?

<small>[ August 22, 2004, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: rrh ]</small>

Ok..since you asked so nicely..

I had pretty much abandoned posting to this thread..because what has become clear is that mllc is only making pro forma protests that she wishes to do "the right thing" and you rrh, are pretty much saying to h*ll with doing the right thing..I want to do the wrong thing and try to force it to be right and d*amn anyone who d*mns me for it. Not a heck of a lot of advice to be given that isn't frankly a complete waste of my time. So from where I'm standing..you both just absolutely insist on having your way..have it. No more excuses and rationalizations.

Now..to answer your question, rrh, about why children are less deeply affected by the death of a parent then by being abandoned by one. Well, I'll give it to you short and sweet. A parent does not choose to die. By abandoning your children you are choosing another person over them. You are point blank telling them that they are less important to you than mllc, less important than your own pleasure. The situation that ark described is classic. It is cliche. You disregard statistics though..because you are special and unique and the rules don't apply to you. You want me to argue with you when this is your position?

So, ok..go ahead..do as you wish. Hey, maybe you will marry and love each other forever. Ready for that cold bucket of water? This is an adulterous relationship..it will never be anything else. Marrying each other will not legitamize it. In 50 years..if you are still blissfully in love..it will still be nothing but an adulterous relationship. Why should you care as long as you are happy together? I can't answer that for you..perhaps the former deacon and church secretary would like to take a stab at it themselves? No? I didn't think so. Don't fool yourself..you spare your children nothing by indulging yourself, this is a non-negotiable fact of life. Mllc will never love your wifes children as much as she loves her own..right there your children have been trumped. The family that you and mllc make together will be your first priority..your children will never recover from this. Your wife and her husband will never recover from this..if the two of you manage to be happy [highly unlikely but for the sake of arguament lets play pretend] it will be at the expense of everyone who loved you enough to suffer your loss. If you are, ya know, sort of fine with that..stop making up sweet stories and daydreams and just own your actions and priorities. Just say..definitively.."I want to be happy, anyone standing in the way will be thrown under the bus" and be done with it. What more do you want? Really, is there anything that I could say to pursuade you from this course?

and another thing..

The two of you thrive on drama.. You feed on it.

I wouldn't be concerned about how the two of you will handle "the pressure"..I'd be interested to see how long these intense feelings last when the pressure is off..and it's nothing but life in all it's mundane glory all over again. You are strong while it is a two against the world scenario..how about when the world stops caring?

noodle,

Thanks for the swift reply. Really.

You know, you have nailed me quite well. I appreciate the straight shooting.

To be honest, the only thing that has really struck a chord with me is something mllc just said to me today. She said that I will have a hard time with another man raising my kids when/if my wife gets married since I'll have no rights with them anymore and will have no say in what he does/doesn't do.

She's right...and that, my friend, hit me right smack between the eyes.

Sometimes I get the feeling mllc wants to be rescued from this whole thing and here I am, dragging her into something she doesn't really want to do...even though she says she wants to.

mllc has been harder on me than anyone else ever could be.

And that is one of the things I love most about her. Crazy huh?