Well I had my dinner date with my WW tonight. Things did not go well at all. Just for some background info, we have been seperated for 3 mos she has been seeing OM for 4 mos. She asked for a D 1 week after we seperated and was pushing pretty hard at first, but we have not even talked about it for the last month and a half. Last week she finally broke the silence and said she wanted to start the process again. I responded by asking her out for dinner to talk before we moved forward.

So we met tonight. I got myself looking all good with out going overboard she showed up in shorts a tank top no makeup and looked like she hadn't even showered. Don't get me wrong she still looks beautiful like that but there was no effort to look even a little dolled up.

We had dinner and just talked about trivial stuff, but had good conversation with lightness and laughter. As soon as dinner was over she asked me what I wanted to talk about. I started by telling her that I loved her with all my heart. She reacted to that by lowering her head and putting her hand over her face and looked like she was going to cry. I told her that I realized and understood everything that lead to where we are and that I wanted to get things worked out. I told her that I have figured a lot of things out about myself and that our time apart has been good for me. She said that she has noticed my changes and that she is happy for me but that she is done. She said I loved you with all of my heart but when I'm done I'm done. I told her that none of our issues were irrepaiable and that we could work through them and she replied she doesn't want to because that's not where she is at and never will be again. She says she is happy where she is at, happier than she has been in years. I told her that we could work to rebuild our love and our relationship and she just simply said she doesn't want to. She says she just knows, in the way women apparently just know things, that she can't love me again. Then she let out a weird little slip. She said we just can't be together right now. I said just right now? And she said no I mean never. This went on for a while and the we decided to go outside and talk some more. More of the same. I told her that I would like to try some things we haven't explored yet and she said that she doesn't want to lead me on. She said she go out and have a good time with me but that it would be awkward because my feelings are so different from hers. I asked her what her fears were about getting back together. She said she didn't have any in fact she said things would be a whole lot easier if we got back together. She just said that we can't. I told her that I would like her to come to counseling then so we could at least get some closure. She is apprehensive because she feels like my couseler and I are going to try to talk her in to working things out. That the counseler is going to try to get her to believe that love can be rekindled. She said that here feelings are her feelings and she is not going to justify them to anyone. She did say that she would go to counseling if it would help me out because she wants me to be ok but if we tried to talk about reconciliation she was going to get pissed off. I stood there and looked her in the eyes for a while and told her that I wanted to grow old with her. She said I wanted that too!? I'm thinking, hello, you can still have that.I touched her face and brushed her hair out of her eye. I caressed her shoulder and told her I loved her again. I told her that as long as we are married that I am not giving up. I gave her a hug and a couple of kisses on her cheeks, forehead and lips and told her that I miss her. She said I'm going to miss you too. And with that she left.

I think that is most of the pertinent details. What the heck do I do now? Hang tight? Have her come to counseling? Plan B? I am so frustrated and confused.

I don't have much time, must get sleep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
but I don't think its time for plan b yet. If you've only been separated for 3 months. But, only you know when it's time for plan B, and that would be when you can no longer handle seeing or talking to her or you feel that your love for her is dying.
I assume that she knows that you know about the A?

I'm actually "re-threading" you!:
"Thanks for the encouragement LINY. The one problem I have is that my WW is completely against any kind of reconciliation, counseling or anything and wants to file for divorce. I am going to be meeting with her sometime soon (was supposed to be last night but she canceled) to give one final push for working things out before she files. I have a very clear understanding of what lead us to this point and know that we can work through this and come out much stronger and more in love at the other end, I just need her to see that. It is hard though because she is in the 'fog' of her A and we have been seperated for 3 mos with very little contact. Any advice on things to say or ways to approach her would me much appreciated."

Maddyk and Pep did a wonderful job of giving you advice and "what to do." And you from how you described it did a wonderful job of applying it!

I can not offer you better advice than they; keep with what you are doing--it can only make *you* a better person out of this whole mess.

How old are the children? Do they get to see their father? How do they treat you? And how are they affected by all of this?

Anyway, good luck with everything. You done good tonight!

parkem, thanks so much for the update. I've been thinking of you and was sorry to see that your first date was postponed.

Here are my thoughts. Your wife's responses to your talk seem pretty textbook and typical for someone having an affair. That probably does not really help you, but know that people have gone through what you're going through and they have overcome it (stayed married, eventually happily so). Let's never let our spouses meet, 'kay? Cause my husband is the same way, once a decision is made he feels he cannot reverse it, regardless of the consequences. Even if he knows it was a mistake. He feels that our love cannot be rekindled and I believe that he's AFRAID to let it happen. I believe he's also AFRAID of counselling because he's AFRAID of loving me again. In a way I can see where he's coming from, but in a way I can't. Sounds like your wife is in the same place. She obviously cares about your and your feelings. She sees your changes (this is good!). She's afraid of being talked into loving you again (translation: She knows she's not that far from loving you and is afraid of upsetting her current status quo). You and I both know that we have done things in our M's that have helped to lead to that fear--let's just hope our spouses can see that it's not too late!

I agree with TTSi, this is not the time for plan B. Although many MB'ers recommend a Plan B as soon as you separate from your spouse, this is not always sound advice. You're doing a good plan A. Your wife is seeing those changes. Even though you haven't much contact right now, continue your Plan A. The longer she sees the changes stick, the more changes you make, the more she is able to see them and see that they are for real. Plan B is not to force your spouse into a decision. It is only there to force your spouse into the consequences of their own actions and to preserve your own love for them. I do not think Plan B would ever be successful without a good Plan A and your Plan A hasn't been going on long enough.

I have toyed with the idea of a Plan B myself. I find myself looking for reasons to hate and disdain my husband. After all, that would make this separation so much easier for me. But that's a pretty bad attitude, wouldn't you say? It indicates a pessimistic attitude, one that will eventually be portrayed to him. You have to do your Plan A with confidence. It might not work with your spouse, but it WILL work for you and that's the thing to concentrate on. So I've decided to Plan A until the end of the year.

As for counselling, I'm not sure what advice to give you on that. Part of me thinks you should seize the opportunity to do so, part of me thinks you should listen to your wife's feelings on this. This is confusing to me too because I am also not sure on whether or not to ask my husband to participate. Just don't push is all I can really say to that, but if SHE brings it up, go for it!

So what next, you ask? I say hang tight and continue plan A'ing your little butt off. How about asking her on another "date" in a week or so? Don't make it a dinner date...make it something short like just going out for coffee or dessert? There will be less pressure on her that way and she might be more likely to accept. Say something like, "I have an appt next week at X time, but I've got about an hour before that. Would you like to go for coffee during that time?". Pressure off because it's not at night (seems like less of a date), pressure off because there is a definite time ending to the "date" (even if you make up that ending). If she asks you why you want to do this, just respond that no matter what happens between the two of you in the end, you enjoy the times with her when there is little stress and would like to remain friends with her because you really do like her as a person, not just as a wife.

If she accepts, even if it's reluctant acceptance--GREAT!!! Then you come to us before your coffee-date and get some more advice. But generally I would advise NOT talking about your R at ALL. No "I love you's" (very important UNLESS she says it first), no talking about a possible divorce, counselling or reconciliation. Just view this date for what it is, going to coffee with a friend. If she declines, take it gracefully. Just respond that you're sorry she can't make it and either offer an alternative day or simply state that you would like to do that in the near future.

Keep the updates coming!

Thank you all for the words of encouragement.


I assume that she knows that you know about the A?

Yeah, she knows that I know.

How old are the children? Do they get to see their father? How do they treat you? And how are they affected by all of this?

The children are 10, 12 and 14. My WW and I have been together 8 years so they have spent more of their life living with me than their real father. They still get to see their father. Every other weekend and one night a week. The youngest used is closer to me than her father. She would always want to stay with us on weekends she was supposed to see him. She still gets so excited to see me and has even tried a few little tricks to get my WW and I back together. The middle D was always blindly loyal to her father no matter how much of a jack a$$ he is. It took me about 6 of the 8 years to finally break through to her completely. And our relationship has been really cool the last couple of years. The oldest is the only one who really remembers much about her mom and dad being together. She is the only one who is aware of the physical abuse he used to inflict upon my WW. She and I have always been pretty close but she has a lot of repressed issues from the previous marriage. When my WW and I first separated I was talking to her and she said that she and her sisters were talking and that they all thought I was an awesome step-dad and that they liked me more than they did their real father. Now she wont even talk to me. My counseler said that this is pretty normal for someone her age, that she feels like she has to pick sides. But she also said that it is sign of how much she cares about me. I imagine that the effect of all this hasn't fully sunk in yet. We seperated not long before the end of the school year and the kids have been lost in summer break la-la land. My wife hasn't even had the kids around much this summer. They have been at her moms, at their fathers or with friends. It should be interesting to see how things go when school starts up again. For the last 5 years I have been doing most of the caring for the kids while my wife has been working on building her mortgage business. I changed my work schedule to get off early enough to pick them up from school and have been bringing them home and hanging out with them helping them with their homework. And also making a nice home cooked dinner pretty much every night. My WW was consistantly either late for dinner because of work or coming home sometimes right before the kids were going to bed. So i was running the show. Homework, showers, dinner, hanging out and playing with them, discipline etc.
So it should be interesting to see how the kids react going back in to the routine of the school year without me around.

MAddyk, I agree with everything you say. Her responses feel very "out of the book". And I think no matter how much she tries to deny it she is afraid of loving me again and that she is too close to being there for comfort. Her little Freudian slip caught my attention when she said "I can't be with you right now" then follws it up with "No I mean I can't ever be with you" sounded to me like a little battle between her heart and her mind.

I think the problem is that she doesn't love herself and doesn't feel OK with how much I did for her and 3 kids that aren't even mine. That is where some of my hopelessness lies. Is that she won't be able to overcome pride and ego. She has been working so hard on her business and been leaving so much in my hands that the kids were starting to resent her and turn on her. They needed their Mom and she just hasn't been there enough for them. She has it in her head that she needs to prove to the world how great of business woman she is while the kids and I couldn't care if she was bagging groceries but was home for dinner. I think she started percieving me as a threat because I work full time for only 8 hours every day make decent money and then had time to devote taking care of the kids and the house. She was working long hours and struggling with her end of the money and was never home. But being a Leo she has such a big ego that rather than see what I do as a good thing, she felt threatened by it. Always telling me that I didn't do enough. I think she was starting to feel that she was having a hard time living up to her talk and rather than admit to it her ego says reverse the blame and move on. Find someone else who sees her as how she wants to be seen. Rather than someone who sees all of her faults and loves her anyway.

I also don't think her ego would ever let her say to me the girls her family, my family, Yeah I f'd up and had an affair and I'm sorry to have put you all through that. The other piece of it is that I don't think her Mom ever truly liked me and her mom is baling her out with a bunch of loans for her business and promising to help her with her debt as soon as the D goes through. None of that can be helping my cause. She kind of got us over a barrel financially in the last year and it caused a lot of stress and now her mom is going to make it all better if we D. I talked to her mother once since we split up and she told me that she knew it was never going to work between us. Gee, thanks for the encouragement.

Anyway that is all a kind of long winded way of saying, Yeah I know she still loves me. But there are too many mitigating circumstance and outside influence for her to just go with her heart. That is where my hopelessness and frustration lie.

Back to you comments maddyk. I think I should get her in to counseling right away if she will agree. I'm not sure if she would accept another meeting with me. She said last night that she feels we are too far apart on the emotions scale to be around each other. Which I translate as it's too freaking agonizing being around the man I love and wanted to spend the rest of my life with while I'm having an A and letting my ego and my mom pull me away from him.

Any thoughts?

parkem: good to see you got a good head on your shoulders and as big a heart to go with it.

The reason why I asked about the kids: I have two sons from my wife previous and they too are "my" sons. They've known no one else. Even with my wife's warning of if you don't get involved with them now, you will lose them forever. (We've *never* bad-mouthed him as they were growing--we knew we wouldn't have to in the future.) Low and behold, as they are 19 and 18 and have their own choice words for him. He has only been a sperm donor.

It's a shame what your wife is doing. (And I'm not just talking about *you*.) Your girls are at the second most impressionable ages and look what she's doing! (Do they know what's going on? Stupid question: don't underestimate the "spongeness" of a child!) I know you will, but please--WHATEVER happens--make sure they get through this too. Counseling sounds real good for the older two.

Maddyk is guiding you real well. I hope somehow you can convince your WW to get to counseling. Regardless, make sure you continue. It can only benefit you in the long run.

Best wishes and God bless.

Thanks for the kind words LINY. I am pretty sure the kids know she is seeing someone. They are not stupid. But even though it started before we were separated I know she has carefully crafted the appearance to make it seem like nothing happened until after we separated and she asked for a D. Which she can tell the kids is OK because at that point she had given up on our marriage. I really don't think she is going to want to do any counseling with me and the kids in fear that the truth might surface and well she is really not into having any truth surface right now.
I think my WW will go to counseling with me but only for the purpose of "helping me" she doesn't want to deal with any truth or confrontation with me either. Nor does she want to deal with her feelings.

This day at work is just dragging. I cannot get last nights dinner off my mind. I love my WW so much and it was so hard to listen to her say that she is done, that she can't love me anymore, that she is happier than she has been in years but sensing that these really aren't her true feelings. She was like a robot last night with these programed responses. I can imagine her being coached by OM before our meeting on how to respond to everything. Just needed to vent.

This day at work is just dragging. I cannot get last nights dinner off my mind. I love my WW so much and it was so hard to listen to her say that she is done, that she can't love me anymore, that she is happier than she has been in years but sensing that these really aren't her true feelings. She was like a robot last night with these programed responses. I can imagine her being coached by OM before our meeting on how to respond to everything. Just needed to vent.

This day at work is just dragging. I cannot get last nights dinner off my mind. I love my WW so much and it was so hard to listen to her say that she is done, that she can't love me anymore, that she is happier than she has been in years but sensing that these really aren't her true feelings. She was like a robot last night with these programed responses. I can imagine her being coached by OM before our meeting on how to respond to everything. Just needed to vent.