Hi folks!

Don't have much time. We're in our out of state house with my son and his friend. Just want 2 post a 2uicky here and let you all know that I BELIEVE! In most of the methods, that is. Mostly, I believe,and want 2 impart 2 my newbie friends who are currently in the worst suffering of their lives right now, that the fog script, the mothership, ...all of it is "real," and all of it fails 2 sustain the WS indefinitely.

My W's fog is starting 2 itch, burn, whatever. It's not holding 2gether. Partly because ol' 2long is just plain DONE listening 2 it. That is, listening 2 it as some sort of account of what IS. It's bull feathers, nothing more. I don't need it, and my W doesn't need it.

Now, don't get me wrong, I still don't believe that plan B was ever for ol' 2long. In fact, I was recounting 2 my W things that have been asked of me over the past 2ple of years - primarily "What is more important 2 you? Spending an extra K a month on an apartment, or saving your M?" Well, folks, I can honestly say, like I said 2 my W, the MONEY is more important!

Now, I apologize for the sarcasm, but it's true. I don't want 2 save this M that has been broken so badly for at least 13 years now. I want 2 rebuild it 2 be something it never was and never can be without a lot of emotional baggage being tossed first. Something wonderful. Or no M at all. No more coercive methods. I recognize the need for them, and recognize that there was a time when *I* probably should have employed them "by the book", but that time is past. I'm doing 2uite well, even though we've got a LONG ways 2 go. My W is doing better, even though she's still in contact with RM (yes, folks, she told me she resumed when we had that discussion about my drinking beer, and I offered 2 stop if she'd stop contact. She described it as if it was some sort of "permission" from me 2 resume - such is fog).

The good news is that we have now had 2 really deep, personally honest conversations in as many days. The good news also is that RM has a new GF. My W alleges that he's told her about the A, and that they want 2 be "friends", and that she's "okay" with that... ...I don't believe it for a New York Minute, but I do believe my W believes it (and yes, I was able 2 tell her that without LBing).

Pep, you've gotta have a talk with the Kaiser counselling professionals: My W says that her IC has said that it's "good" that they're only friends. I told her that it's unacceptable. She says RM's mad at her and probably won't speak 2 her again. She also said that my email 2 him in March gave him "hope" that there was still something there, and that he's mad now because she's told him she doesn't want that relationship again (for at least the 3rd time, I think).

...and she said that she's been angry with me since then for sending the email. That she had warned me that she'd DV me if I did that, and she probably should have done it then. I agreed, and am considering exposing 2 RM's coworkers now... ...but really, I don't think I'll have 2.

Anyway, just wanted 2 let you know I'm doing well. I wouldn't mind if we save our M, and I think we've got a better chance than ever before of doing so. But a lot has 2 be accomplished first, on both ends, before I'll be in the least bit interested.

It's been good, though. Last night, after the 2nd deep convo, I slept like a baby for something like 15 hours. Best night's sleep I've had in MANY years. My W slept well, 2. So, we both want these convos 2 continue.

I made a lot of points with her by not exploding when she told me that contact resumed. AND, I was able 2 tell her how it hurts, how it's inappropriate, irresponsible, selfish, and s2pid for her 2 keep hanging on like this. All without LBing.

ol' 2long

<small>[ August 20, 2004, 12:18 AM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

Wow, guy. Progress, of sorts.

Maybe you should offer her one of your beers.

WAT

2long - That is the beauty of the MB program. If you stick with it long enough, you get where you will be fine if they stay, and fine if they go.

Glad to see you doing well.

Hey ol' 2long! You crazy sleepyhead! I am so happy to hear your update.

I don't know about your W, but my H's fog consisted of his brain trying to rationalize his inappropriate 1)actions and 2)feelings. His brain kept telling him that he couldn't possibly love me if he had SF with the HW, that he must have never loved me (uh, I guess that makes sense?). And being inexperienced with girlfriends in his youth (I snatched him up when he was 18), the boy didn't know the difference between lust and infatuation, and love.

Once he stopped putting so much energy into supporting his fantasy, it just melted away. And the reason he stopped putting energy into the fantasy is because we started REALLY talking. I did not LB. I cried a lot. But I was finally able to hear everything he had to say, even if it hurt my feelings. And I have carried that over into our recovery. I can now hear ANYTHING he has to say to me. I don't always like it, but he doens't get "punished" for it anymore.

I am like you. I didn't just want to "save" my M. I wanted more. And through MC and mutual commitment, we are doing just that.

I wish for you everything you want and need in you M, 2long. You have EARNED it.

SS

2long,

Like you, my old marriage was NOT worth saving. I didn't want to go back....never want to go back. I will gladly give up the innocence I had before his A and endured the pain of recovery to accomplish a far great goal than simply "saving" a flawed relationship. The new one I have built is a much better vehicle for my journey into the later years of my life. I want a partner. I want an equal. I want a friend. I want a lover. I want to laugh and watch my children become adults with the person who fathered them. Anything else is....well...ratmeat. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Originally posted by 2long:


Pep, you've gotta have a talk with the Kaiser counselling professionals: My W says that her IC has said that it's "good" that they're only friends. I told her that it's unacceptable.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, in order to do that... I'd have to believe your W's interpretation of what IC said to be correct and unbiased, which I do NOT! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Her fog filters what people say to her. And she tells you what she heard , not necessarily what they meant.

You sound good.

I was gonna tell you about where H and I are taking 2 teenage girls tonight to hear a cool 80's cover band for FREE ... and we could meet your son and you there (?? and M too !!) and watch the kids act 2COOL around each other .... but alas .... you are away . The name of the band is The Spazmatics!!!! And they are sooooo good! Funny and excellent musicians.

Pep

PEP!!!

The name of the band is The Spazmatics!!!! And they are sooooo good! Funny and excellent musicians.

pep...a SPAZMATIC GROUPIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would of thunk it as well... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

2long as usual mulling over your post
gathering my thoughts
biding my time...
and as always hoping YOU YOU YOU (that's you to the third power) for you techies...
are well.....

ark

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

pep...a SPAZMATIC GROUPIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


ark </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes.... Ark you'd be an instant groupie as well!!!!

The lead singer always performs wearing a neck brace! You know, what we in the business like to call a "claim collar."

Geek glasses. All members wear these.

Short sleeve white business shirt. Pocket protector.

Suspenders AND a belt. Very high above the waist pants.

Lead guitar wears a SpongeBob backpack while performing.

And they act like idiots while sounding like rock stars.

It's all Goooooooooooooood.

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Lead guitar wears a SpongeBob backpack while performing. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This group would be VERY popular with my 11yo DS. He loves all of these things. He has excellent taste in music.

SS

<small>[ August 20, 2004, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: Spider Slayer ]</small>

So we're home.

This morning, I asked my W what she was thinking, and wouldn't take "silence" for an answer. Apparently I ruined her day.

We had a big argument, she went for a drive, she's back, and we talked some more.

I should apparently be grateful that she doesn't want a physical relationship with RM, and that he's got a new GF. Sure, I am. But ol' selfish 2long would like the R 2 END because my W wants it 2 END, not just because RM is fooling around again. But I'm supposed 2 be able 2 trust that she'll figure this out on her own. Maybe she will (she will have 2 anyway, as will I). Maybe I can. But it's been more than 2.5 years now. I'm getting pretty tired.

She says we probably need a DV, so we can figure out whether we can and want 2 be 2gether.

I've moved back 2 the upstairs bedroom.

-ol' 2long

2long,

I know that you don't want to consider Plan B, but I think you should. Sorry your Sunday didn't go so well.

K:

I am rethinking that. Need 2 talk 2 Penny this week, 2.

My D is getting M'd next March. We're all involved in preparations. I need 2 ask my W how she reconciles her desire 2 help our D with her disdain for M.

I've got a conference trip 2 Italy coming up next month. We've been talking about my W and kids meeting me there, but now I don't even want 2 go.

And Pep: I don't believe her IC said that the way she's interpreted it either.

-ol' 2long

I would like to know what happened in the earlier convo, or what was said that gave you hope and let you sleep so well.

I also point out that your W has said similar things to this last convo over the last 2.5 years but you still feel (often) that you are making progress.

Is this time different?

Is it that she does things and says things that put $$$ in the love bank, but her attitude hasn't changed at all, or is it that she has changed, but still says things that hurt when she gets in a bad mood or feels threatned?

I tend to think (if you can do it calmly with out anger) that you saying these kinds of things will help things get setteled, one way or the other.

Ask her about helping daughter but not believing in M. I suspect she will say it is good for D, but she (your W) is so different that it might not be good for her. I bet you hear more of the "I am not normal," or "I can't conform to societies expectations for me" type of stuff.

You can always encourage her to try NC for 6 months or a year (I would try and get the year) and see if it works. She hasn't tried that yet.

Ask her to do an experiment for a year and if it doesn't work, D you. She might as well try it.

Remember, you are not making her do anything. She doesn't have to try for a year, she doesn't have to stay another minute if she doesn't want to. Just ask her if she is WILLING to try it, and tell her that you think if she will do honest NC for a year she will be happier and more content.

You can't make her, you are asking for her consent. Tell her that too.

SS

ss:

You know me and my W pretty well.

You're pretty close 2 the mark, so far as I can see it, regarding my W's atti2de about M and my D's M.

I like your idea about asking for a year of NC. I will ask her. But I will also tell her that one of the alternatives is that I reserve the right 2 tell RM 2 go shove... (insert lots of auditory assault verbage here, involving shaded parts of RM's anatomy) if she doesn't give me the respect of at least trying such an experiment.

There's also a precedent here. In the car 2day, we went 2 get hardware for the house. My D called us and said she's trying on a wedding dress. She asked my W if she'd like 2 see it then. My W offered 2 drop me off, but I said let's both go. So we did. (my D was stunningly beautiful in the dress!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Anyway, on the way there my W said "My hope is 2 just get through this W and the house deal with our relationship after that." (We're hosting our FSIL's parents and sister for a few months around the wedding - they're from Wales).

So, one option is 2 ask her 2 "experiment" with NC until after that, next spring. If she says "no way" (which she very well might), I will tell her that I reserve the right 2 email her "friend" whenever I want, for whatever reason I want.

Yes2rday, she said that her mom's ex 2nd H "can't die soon enough". Long story, but he spent her dry and left her with almost nothing. I feel the same about RM. Should I tell her that?

-ol' 2long

ss:

I'll talk 2 you offline about the details of the other convos. In general, we both felt better about being able 2 talk about our feelings without the other LBing us. There was fuming afterwords during the days, but it seemed pretty much "okay" or unlikely 2 fester, until this morning. I know I was fuming with thoughts of the renewed contact while on the drive home. She probably was 2.

Oh well.

-ol' 2long

"In the old days - before the discovery of eruptions - the lava had to be carried by hand down the mountain and THROWN on the sleeping villagers. This took a lot of time."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Say what?????

Is this the stuff nightmares are made of?

Weave:

You've gotta understand ol' 2long's revolting sense of humor!

That's the caption 2 a car2n I cut out over 20 years ago. Had this pic2re of an elfish character with a pole over his shoulders and a 2ple crucibles at each end with lava in them. He's walking down from the summit of a volcano.

Like the car2n of the lab tech with a clipboard taking notes, with rubber chickens all over in the air around him: "The effect of rubber chickens on the atmosphere."

Or the T-shirt with the pic2re of a guy sitting at the bottom of an Earlenmeyer flask, with bubbles coming up from him: "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate."

Or one of my old sig lines: "Build a man a fire, and keep him warm for a day. Set a man on fire and keep him warm for the rest of his life."

I need 2 start drinking heavily.
-ol' 2long

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Well I'm glad you explained it, I was taken it as truth, as I usually do whatever off the tips of ol 2longs scientific fingertips.

I had visions in my head of those villagers going to sleep every night wondering if tonight would be the night they would be jolted from peaceful slumber by potfuls of lava being dumped on their heads. Of course lava or no lava I get the feeling "peaceful slumber" was an alien concept to them, given the various dinasours and what not roaming the planet.

I think I need to drink heavily too (oh no I already am <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ).

Hi 2long,
it's good to see you on again, though I wish it was to tell us there was full recovery at your house, that the house was finished, that your settlement put money in the bank, and that your company was sending you to mars on the new high speed inter-planetary shuttle. Did I get two out of three?


You're pretty close 2 the mark, so far as I can see it, regarding my W's atti2de about M and my D's M.

I think she still has a lot of guilt, and she still has an addiction. It is always a problem when the addicts don't know they have the addiction.


I like your idea about asking for a year of NC. I will ask her. But I will also tell her that one of the alternatives is that I reserve the right 2 tell RM 2 go shove... (insert lots of auditory assault verbage here, involving shaded parts of RM's anatomy) if she doesn't give me the respect of at least trying such an experiment.

Really - since you can't make her do anything - this is about your choices.

Who do you want to be, what do you want to be, how do you want to be? I think the proof that you are a better man than RM is that you have honor - and you show it by how you live. I think your W sees that - I hope she does.


There's also a precedent here. In the car 2day, we went 2 get hardware for the house. My D called us and said she's trying on a wedding dress. She asked my W if she'd like 2 see it then. My W offered 2 drop me off, but I said let's both go. So we did. (my D was stunningly beautiful in the dress!) Anyway, on the way there my W said "My hope is 2 just get through this W and the house deal with our relationship after that." (We're hosting our FSIL's parents and sister for a few months around the wedding - they're from Wales).

Yes, and your comeback was "How about lets make a fantastic new one before the wedding so that daughter has a blueprint for how to make a marriage work. I bet if we really try, we can be madly in love, and having the time of our life."

You can still bring up her quote and give her this sales pitch.


So, one option is 2 ask her 2 "experiment" with NC until after that, next spring. If she says "no way" (which she very well might), I will tell her that I reserve the right 2 email her "friend" whenever I want, for whatever reason I want.

That sounds like getting even.
What does this sound like?

" I believe we have the best chance of happiness if you will try NC for a year, but you are free to make your own choices. I feel bad about this choice, because I think it is leading towards divorce, but I have no right force you to do anything."

Yes2rday, she said that her mom's ex 2nd H "can't die soon enough". Long story, but he spent her dry and left her with almost nothing. I feel the same about RM. Should I tell her that?

At this point she would probably just think you are being mean and spiteful. Has Penny talked to you yet about how to communicate your feelings?
I feel ___________ about _____________. ???
If not, ask her. I think it would help you say what you feel without W taking it as an LB.


I'll talk 2 you offline about the details of the other convos. In general, we both felt better about being able 2 talk about our feelings without the other LBing us. There was fuming afterwards during the days, but it seemed pretty much "okay" or unlikely 2 fester, until this morning. I know I was fuming with thoughts of the renewed contact while on the drive home. She probably was 2. Oh well.

It's those times when I fume that I try to bite the bullet and I say something like - "It sees like we both are hurting......I would like to find a way to make this into a good thing, and bring us closer together. Can you explain your feelings to me about what we have talked about so far, and tell me what you think would help us get through this with more love for each other.?"

She almost always responds, but someone has to start it up softly, and with love. I know it's hard to feel love sometimes, but I expect a lot from you - I think for good reason.

Glad you are home safely. How were the Dino tracks?

SS

PS, I really liked the flask one, but now I have to clean the monitor.

ss:

It got 2 100F just as we got 2 the tracks, and they were closing the gate.

Next time, perhaps. If there is one.

I appreciate your efforts 2 "talk me down". I've often told my W that MBers, you in particular, have OUR best interests at heart. She has acknowledged that you exist, and are my friend. But not much more. She won't come here (I'd be happy 2 let her know who I am - I've got nothing 2 lose).

I forwarded something Penny wrote about conflict avoidance. She hasn't read her email yet. I hope she receives it well when she does. It was amazingly well written.

I'm probably 2 sentimental. My W is very cynical. I've done a pretty good job in the last 2ple of years doing and saying the right things. Some of them following suggestions like the ones you gave me above. 2day I got lambasted with all the familiar foggy blame-shifting all over again. I'm just so confounded tired of this crap.

I need 2 talk 2 Penny this week anyway. Hope she has some good ideas. I'm fresh out. I don't want plan B. I'd rather sue the pants off RM for alienation of affection (allowed in NM). Won't likely go anywhere though. I'd love 2 expose the "friendship" 2 his coworkers and put the pressure on harder for him 2 get lost, but Penny might agree with you that that's getting even (though when we started, she said we'd expose more fully if contact resumed and was "blatant").

I hope RM's mom comes out from under the porch and bites him right on the leg.

-ol' 2long