This is kind of a rambling post. My WW just came home (from shopping for furniture for her new apartment). Told me I lied to her again. I didn't tell her I had spoken to OM's mother again. I didn't lie, I just didn't tell WW. WW said "well you got want you wanted, OM and I are over".

On one hand I want to jitterbug. On the other hand, the anger WW just displayed is something I haven't experienced yet. I have a feeling (and knowledge from experienced ones) that the roller coaster just got faster and more difficult. I did not LB. Just stood there and took it. Told her I hope we can rebuild trust one day. WW said "I don't want to rebuild anything" and left to cancel the lease on her new apartment a.k.a. love shack. I'm either so relieved or concerned because my blood pressure just skyrocketed. Not from anger, but from the unknown.

I know that I have to be even more suspicious now because that could be a front to back me off of OM's mother. I want even mention NC until a couple of weeks have passed. In the interim, I'll check cell phone records, occasional "drive bys" to see and monitor most movements.

Am I being reasonable? Please help me again to figure this out. BTW, if you're wondering about exposure - it appears to work.

Gotta log off and will check later. I've been very careful for WW not to find this website until I get the feeling she is ready for the truth......God Bless.

sailor - Well so far, go good. It will be a rollercoaster ride from here. But you are doing well, and can do this.

LS,

If True, this is great news for you!

Good job in following and sticking too a plan! (see any of you still on the fence, it can work).

However, the only bad part is that you have to remember this is only the Very First Step in a very long journey.
A necessary and needed step, but just the first.

The good news is IF you choose to stick with a proven Plan....then the rest can fall into place for you just like this initial part.

Unfortunately, You' STILL have many challenges and many emotional days ahead of you.
But for now take a deep breath and enjoy your "victory" of sorts.

Truly, It takes seeing some real and "tangible" progress (like this) to make you even "want" to continue down this path you've chosen (recovery).

Let this news make you take heart in the fact, that things can get better.
Also let this turn of events "recharge" your batteries for what still lies ahead of you to face.

Keep at it.......limit those LBers as much as possible.
(Remember that the Dreaded 'withdrawal' is next.......hold on for that one!)

Good job here sailor........you may just get "found" before this is all over!
Take care.
Semper Fi

WooHoo!

That is all I will add for today's news.

I am sure that there is still a rollercoaster ride a comin'

but this is progress for you.

lostsailor,

I haven't visited here much recently, so all I know of your story is this one post.

Regarding her anger - if you find yourself stressing over it, remember that to get from withdrawal to intimacy, a person generally needs to go through anger. An angry wife is an engaged wife.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lostsailor:
<strong> ........ WW said "I don't want to rebuild anything" and left to cancel the lease on her new apartment a.k.a. love shack. I'm either so relieved or concerned because my blood pressure just skyrocketed. Not from anger, but from the unknown.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You want her back like this? I can't see where she has shown value to be allowed to stay. If you allow her to stay with that attitude, what motivation does she have to become an Xws or W?

What you are doing is enabling her bad attitude and you will still the her punching bag. U want that?

L.

<small>[ August 22, 2004, 03:19 AM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

Tread lightly sailor, but following up on Orchid's comment, set your "respect" boundaries.

This is the toughest way for both her and you for the affair to end - involuntarily from her stand point. When WSs end it on their own, the aftermath seems to be much different, but the needed work is still there.

But ended it may be, and withdrawal is withdrawl.

But do not be surprised is this is just a momentary pause.

But assuming it's real, I strongly suggest you have a session with Steve Harley to get customized professional advice.

WAT

<small>[ August 22, 2004, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

I'm so confused now. Reading other posts, to get the results I've gotten thus far seemed to take longer for others. When I started this thread, I was in a sort of "panic" of what WW told me. The anger was something that in our 19 years together, I had never seen. WW wasn't overly confrontational, just the look in her eyes showed the anger.

Last night I actually went over to the "in recovery" portion of the website. I just wanted to get some ideas if this is really what's happening. I learned alot in a short amount of time from some caring WW's who shared their experiences. I'm so glad I read them. I knew what to expect today.

Well today happened. I'll tell ya, it started with complete anger and distance this morning. Before I continue, know that I didn't once LB. Some I took on the chin, others I used MB philosophy and I even attempted some "reverse fog babble".

This morning WW was mad. WW had went to Coronado and when she came back, all I asked was "how did it go". Her response was swift. "You think everything is okay, I hate you right now". I didn't say anything, just went to the other room. WW followed and said "I'm still thinking about moving out" so I said "I'll support whatever decision you make" and in about a nanosecond WW said "nope, I'm staying here for DD and that's it". Almost chuckled inside for the contradiction in a matter of nanoseconds.

WW went to lay down and I took DD to play putt-putt. Great time and when we returned, I went into another phase of Plan A. Didn't attempt conversation, just went about working in the yard. WW was still upset because she must have done about 30 loads of laundry. Seemed to wash one thing at a time. Up until this point, my heart ached and that old familiar empty spot was there but I worked through it. I had my hopes that I was getting through to her because even though this was the "first day withdrawal", when I did ask a question, I got an answer. Nitnoid questions, but communication none the less. WW went to the store and when she returned she told me "it's definately over between OM and I". I asked "why what happened". WW said "because you interfered and OM doesn't want to involve his family". I said "yeah, our families are involved now". Subtle reverse babble - I think. Anyway, WW came outside and now another side. She was uncontrollably crying. Saying she still wants to move out to be by herself. Started talking to me through tears of not being able to talk to her mom/my mom (both deceased), etc. Did say that if it wasn't for DD, she would have put an end to herself. Certainly 180 out from this morning. Luckily I had read a post from SKM which spoke of how her husband let her speak (even about the OM) when she started her withdrawals. I just listened, added comments about A/D possibilities to help her, etc. Very emotional and heartwrenching to see her this way. I didn't even flinch when WW told me that OM was a really good friend to talk to. Well, maybe I flinched a little but I didn't let it show.

Now my confusion. In one day, I've seen WW go from the worst anger to non-caring to complete emotional breakdown. WW has not committed to rebuilding the M and I think WW will attempt to rekindle the A with OM (although OM broke it off yesterday). Sorta pi$$es me off to think that WW will be "chasing" OM.

I feel I want her to move out. We ended tonight with me deep into Plan A and showing no LB's. I'm feel what ORCHID and WAT asked me in this thread. Here's my feeling - I want to have this A ended by WW and OM. I don't want the idea of having my exposure to OM's mother be the cause. Why do I feel this way? My thought is that if WW says it enough to herself, it will always remain in her head "what if?" "Could it have worked if BS didn't interfere?"

I look forward to a couple of things. First and foremost any responses to help my confusion. Second, I look forward to Plan B. I don't want her to be here if she isn't really ready to start rebuilding. I can't even get the NC idea across unless WW wants to come back and then I have leverage to attempt to lay down boundaries/requirements for me to take WW back.

Thanks for any type of responses. I truly do read and digest them all. I'm sorry this one is longer than normal. Guess I'm up/down today and wanted to get it off my chest.......

Thanks and God Bless.

I just had a sense of relief come over me after typing my last post.

Thus far, I haven't stuck to my guns and told her I didn't want her to move out. More from a legality aspect (abandoning the home) than a "rebuilding our M" aspect. Dr. Harley's SAA mentioned the Jon helped Sue by giving her the freedom to move and money for the move. One of my last postings mentioned that I let WW know that I didn't want to pay a dime for the apartment (in a non-LB manner) and I think that did make it through the fog. WW's always been the one who handles the finance. Hell, I've given her a "full power of attorney" for the last 15 years. I've since taken that away and haven't told her.

I don't want to sound like I'm on the fence, but the more I read and learn; the more I think; the more I experience....I want this A to end because of them and WW wanting to come back home. Hell, she's 42 and he's 24. OM's mother is only a few years older. How long can it survive knowing that OM's family is against it? How long can it last knowing what WW is doing to our family? I think I'm better off with WW being away for awhile "to think about things".

I have felt pain never experienced before. Lost 28lbs in a little over a month. The gym is working and I kinda like the new view in the mirror. Don't like being 6' and 170 but I do feel better. Matter of fact, I now mow the yard without a shirt!

My only question is "am I baiting her for what I know is coming - Plan B?"

Thanks again.

If by baiting you mean showing her what she could have if she chooses to end the A and commit to your M...then I certainly hope so..isn't that the point of plan A?

So, sounds like she is really a mess right now. Sort of makes Sybll look reasonable and balanced by comparison. Of course you don't want the affair to be over just because he says so..you want her to return because it is her honest choice...I wouldn't accept anything less. This is not the time for that though..let's not put the cart before the horse. Right now you have an NC..for whatever reason, you got it. If you doubt that it is impacting her..just watch for the next mood swing. So she is having the opportunity to go through withdrawl. If this lasts long enough and NC continues you may start to see signs of life returning to your wife. I think you have done an excellent job of reverse fog babble thus far. Her fantasies are being slowly deconstructed..and remember..she has done some pretty despicable things chasing them. She will take their death hard. I'm not entirely up to date about how the OM family has been involved..but I noted the age difference..and I noted that the OM mother and your wife are of peer age group...I look at my own small son and know that if a woman my age approached him in the future, especially in an affair situation..I would tend to see my son as a victim. Not your very favorite position, no doubt..but it could still work for you. Couldn't hurt to have this little boys Mommy threatenning to beat your wife to death with a shovel if she doesn't take up a permanent absence in this relationship. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Not a lot of future to dream about then, is there?

So..you have a lot going for you right now. Things are better than they seem. You are doing well, holding your ground..keeping your goal in sight even in the face of some very painfull words from your WS...I think congratulations are in order. The war ain't over..and the outcome ain't certain..but boy..you sure done good so far. Keep it up--Noodle

Noodle...You have always and continue to make sense. Something that struck a cord with me earlier was WW said (in the I need to move out conversation) "It's not about OM, it's about me. I can talk with him at work". What hit me like a brick was "so much for NC." I did however check her prized cell phone and there hasn't been any contact since OM broke it off yesterday at 1324 (1:24 p.m.). Possibly a good sign.

Regarding OM's mother. I exposed the A to her and called a week later to see if any other lies were told. When I exposed, OM's mother (who OM lives with) said "they told me you were a marriage counselor and knew how to handle it". Also with my second phone call, I found out OM's mother and stepfather are both A survivors. She said she was on my side and to know she has felt this terrible pain obviously helped her persuade OM to break it off.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> lostsailor: I just had a sense of relief come over me after typing my last post. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Me too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> lostsailor: Thus far, I haven't stuck to my guns and told her I didn't want her to move out. More from a legality aspect (abandoning the home) than a "rebuilding our M" aspect. Dr. Harley's SAA mentioned the Jon helped Sue by giving her the freedom to move and money for the move. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: By not sticking to your plan, you are enabling the A or even the fantasy of it. Also you are sending mixed messages to the WS. In the twisted fog, those mixed messages can become deadly to the family.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> lostsailor: One of my last postings mentioned that I let WW know that I didn't want to pay a dime for the apartment (in a non-LB manner) and I think that did make it through the fog. WW's always been the one who handles the finance. Hell, I've given her a "full power of attorney" for the last 15 years. I've since taken that away and haven't told her. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: That's a postive step. Now don't reneg.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> lostsailor: I don't want to sound like I'm on the fence, but the more I read and learn; the more I think; the more I experience....I want this A to end because of them and WW wanting to come back home. Hell, she's 42 and he's 24. OM's mother is only a few years older. How long can it survive knowing that OM's family is against it? How long can it last knowing what WW is doing to our family? I think I'm better off with WW being away for awhile "to think about things". </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: In the fog it doesn't matter to the WS if the OM is young enough t/b her child, the A is what it is with all it's illogic. What you need is for the WS to end the A more than the OM to end the A. Whether the OM's family is against the A or not is not the important factor. It is helpful to your cause but you can still survive without it..

IMHO, you are better off with the WS away. When she decides to be an Xws or W, then you can consider taking her back. But not as long as she is a WS.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> lostsailor: I have felt pain never experienced before. Lost 28lbs in a little over a month. The gym is working and I kinda like the new view in the mirror. Don't like being 6' and 170 but I do feel better. Matter of fact, I now mow the yard without a shirt!

My only question is "am I baiting her for what I know is coming - Plan B?"

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: I am sorry for your pain but it comes with this awful terriotry we are placed in. That infedelity diet works wonders but at what expense?

As for your baiting question, I'd say the real reason is for you to be able to feel safe about your family. Don't look at it from her lost side, look at it from your family's safety and recovery side.

take care,
L.

ps: You did reverse babble a bit. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lostsailor:
<strong>Here's my feeling - I want to have this A ended by WW and OM. I don't want the idea of having my exposure to OM's mother be the cause. Why do I feel this way? My thought is that if WW says it enough to herself, it will always remain in her head "what if?" "Could it have worked if BS didn't interfere?"</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, OM ended it. If it was because of pressure from Mommy, so be it. You KNOW this is the reason he gave your wife. But it also could have been his own revelation after getting some motherly advice.

However it ends, it's the beginning of potential recovery. Yes, the ideal sitch would be for your wife to have a click moment and recognize her intoxication and turn sober. These moments with WSs, like SKM, seem rare. Most of the time they happen, I believe, is BEFORE the BS even knows an affair is underway.

So, instead of starting your potential recovery from the pole position, you don't have an instant lead. But this is just the start and guaranteed, this is only a momentary condition.

A 24 year old boy living with Mommy? Your wife WILL eventually see the folly of this. Keep doing what you're doing and be patient. NO WAY will she decide to move out - this is my prediction. While she's mood swinging, concentrate on your daughter. Demonstrate to your daughter, yourself, and your wife what a good guy you are and the obvious answer will come to her.

WAT

I guess I'm back to sleeping a couple of hours and then up again. Gotta stop that quickly as it'll wear me thin. Don't want to slip back into the first month.

I've read the responses so far and they all make sense. Option 1) Wait and see how it progresses and option 2) don't take WW back until she has decided to work on the M.

I'm going to feel out the next couple of days and see where "we" are. If her mood swings are like yesterday, that should be a sign of the withdrawal beginning/continuing. If she is like last week (fairly upbeat and happy to have both BS and OM), then I'm going to help her leave.

If withdrawal, I'm there to listen, help, love, learn and attempt to bring my wife back. Plan A until I feel like I'm losing my love for her. Not sure how I'll Plan B if we are living together, but I'll cross that bridge if it gets there. I know a support system - you guys.

If continuing with A (going to have to snoop for this one), then I'm placing money on the table and letting her make the decision to go and "find herself". I'm not going to try and persuade her differently. It's a decision SHE has to make and I need to allow her to make bad ones too.

BTW, I mistyped earlier - I HAVE stuck to my guns and have always (even last night) told WW that "I didn't want her to move out but it was HER DECISION and I'll be here no matter what you choose."

I'm holding on for this ride and I've noted every single response and re-read all of them again not too mention almost every other post on the website.

Thanks for the continuing support and God Bless.

Lost,
Our situations are somewhat alike. I intervened and supposedly, caused the demise of my WW's A with the 25yrold OM. I'm not so sure they ended anything and it's hard to accept that she's CHASING this guy. In fact she just moved out last night, of course she won't admit to anything, but I think they have started up again. I am officially off of the rollercoaster.

Orchid is RIGHT, do not enable your W's A. My W was here all droopy-eyed and blaming me for her EA ending, the next day she was thankful for supporting her, the next day she hated me, the next day she loved me....but all along she never did a lick of work to aid in our recovery. I've learned a valuable lesson, do not put in blood, sweat and tears with a WS unless they of their own volition seek to be a XWS. Fogged WS's don't think logically and they will justify any action regardless to who it hurts, they're all "cake eaters' with PHD's in "Rationalizing the Irrational".

Strap on your seat belts and keep both hands inside of the vehicle. A heck of a ride awaits you. You are not alone. Do yourself a favor and don't get too comfortable with the ups and don't wallow too much in the downs. This saving your marriage business changes prognosis daily sometimes hourly.

Good luck from a fellow combatant.
When the going gets tough the tough get support.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ August 23, 2004, 08:45 AM: Message edited by: FamilyMatters ]</small>

LS,

Don't forget that one of the boundaries that MUST be in place is NC. If that means quiting her job, then so be it. There is no free lunch in these things and she has not paid the tab yet.

You need to express all of your boundaries in a kind, gentle but firm way and then stick to them. It is the only way she will be able coming back. Why? If the boundaries change she will never trust what you say, to express them and stick to them, and then she knows what she has to work with.

Hang in there, this is tough stuff.

God Bless,

JL

It's now been a few hours since my last post. WE took DD to first day of school. WW looked bad, didn't sleep, obviously still entangled in her mind. A couple other mothers thought she looked bad because it was DD's first day of second grade. Nothing stated, just Plan A'd and focused on DD and the classroom.

Driving to work, WW called me twice. Nothing big, just about how traffic was (common occurence here in southern California). Very short conversations, but conversations none the less. Confusing to say the least. This morning while getting dressed, I allowed her time to talk while DD was eating breakfast. WW said she was up all night thinking about the pros/cons of moving out. Expenses, afraid of actually liking to be on her own (there's some fog babble there). I told WW "I know, but who would take out the trash and who would kill any spiders that showed up". Got a smile and of course WW said "what if there are no spiders". Then I just smiled.....The rest of the morning was almost surreal. WW was wandering around trying to get things together. The mornings are her time with DD and it was a well-oiled machine. I'm normally at work by the time they wake up. I do call twice - once for WW and later for DD. Been doing it for years. Consistently!

I've now read and re-read all the replies (probably six times now). I'm compelled to do the following:

1) I've stated that I will not pay a dime for the apartment. Rent, electricity, etc. WW knows this and I will not alter that boundary.

2) I will continue to Plan A as long as I can. That will never change (I hope).

3) I'm going to withdraw money and give it to her as a way for her to make a decision. I don't like what is going on with WW nor do I like the idea that she is still a WS and not an XWS or W.

I believe this money will not be viewed as breaking the boundary previously set. Meaning - this money is for cheap furniture (still won't even discuss taking anything from the house as it'll "break up the home" - not the A, but taking a chair will?") and to provide her the necessary resources to move.

I truly don't want WW to move out. But I also don't want to continue to be placed in a position where she isn't/doesn't want to work on our M.

Another sidenote. WW believes that she'll be here more than away. Meaning - she'll come early in the morning and take over the getting DD to school. Intends on spending time at "our house" and then coming/going at her discretion. I know that I cannot tolerate that idea of fantasy. If/when she moves out, I will not limit her time with DD but I will make it clear that DD and I also have plans. The "I'm kinda busy right now, maybe later or call back in a little while" routine may have an affect. I do not intend to implement Plan B until I can no longer see her without having an immediate hole in my chest. I know that working in the yard yesterday, I looked across the road and remembered a couple who went through this. They did not use MB principles and went their own ways. I did see both of them last year and they both appear to be happy. Just reinforced the "it takes time" issue.

Anyway, that's my plan. Please, if anyone has 2X4's I'm thick-skinned and please, if it sounds logical, toss that my way too.

Thanks again.....God Bless, LS

An addition to my sidenote. WW said (during the first episode of moving out) that she "still wants to do family things with DD and I". Not anything to rebuild our M, just to continue the fantasy that the "family" is still intact. We are both very good at turning on/off our emotions whenever DD comes in the room. I know that eventually she'll notice. I can only imagine what Tree is going through and I prayed for her and her DS.

Just thought I'd add that.

She's fence sitting.

Probably in denial about the affair being finished - if, in fact, it is.

See, it may be over to OM, but not to her.

This raises an interesting dilemma about Plan B. If it is over from a practical standpoint, i.e., no more OM, but Delta Dawn is hanging on, and she moves out, is Plan B appropriate? I honestly don't know.

What do you think about counseling with Steve H.?

WAT

I'm wondering how long I should wait before attempting any other moves? I pulled into the bank and turned back around wanting to read some more advice. I was very close to getting the money out, giving it to WW and providing her the opportunity to move out. Glad I waited.

I know every situation is different but the same. I've had responses from both sides. WW needs to go "find herself" (or whatever that means) and only be able to return with the intention of working on rebuilding the M. The other side is even though OM called it off and it's not ideal (ideal being WW snapped out of her delusional state), give it some time/patience and see what happens.

I'm wondering if I'm rushing this and not giving enough time/patience to see what's really going on. I do know that the phone call to WW this afternoon after picking up DD was cold and short. Nothing like 6 hours ago. FamilyMatters hit the nail on the head - who knows what the next day/hour/minute holds during this "withdrawal".

Any suggestions? Should I wait it out some more? Provide opportunity to move out? Guess I'm more confused than I thought. The first phase worked so well, I just don't want to sabotage any chance to rebuild. I'm certainly not afraid anymore but this d**n roller coaster sure takes some dips. Trying to level out the ride for myself.

WAT...I've been contemplating C with Steve Harvey but I'm finding most guidance here on this forum. I've read that same statement quite a bit in alot of threads.

FamilyMatters....How long have you been doing this before WW moved out last night?

Thanks.....LS