You know, I think we have evolved into a culture that has become so addicted to feeling good that we practically fall over ourselves to pass out sympathy, empathy and "compassion" like cheap candy. It's almost like a contest to prove who is the most "compassionate."

We have so cheapened those acts of compassion that they no longer mean anything. They are a dime a dozen and can be had for even less than a dime in this culture. We just hand them out whether its appropriate or not, just anything to make ourselves feel all holy and moly.

My true sympathies, in this case, lie with the people who have been harmed, not with those who have NOT been harmed and are only hijacking the very real grief of others. That is with the parents of this dead boy and the targets of WW's abuse, Bob and his children.

<small>[ August 22, 2004, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

And Bob... in regards to your WW...for crying out loud, do nothing.

Right now a whole new level of "Drama" has been added to her already plenty chaotic and emotionally fried life.

Be the safe, calm haven till this blows over.

Don't take anything personally.

John

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong>My true sympathies, in this case, lie with the people who have been harmed, not with those who have NOT been harmed and are only hijacking the very real grief of others. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very well. Sympathy for those who have been harmed.

Who in this scenario is not suffering pain?

John

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by dewt:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong>My true sympathies, in this case, lie with the people who have been harmed, not with those who have NOT been harmed and are only hijacking the very real grief of others. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very well. Sympathy for those who have been harmed.

Who in this scenario is not suffering pain?

John </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will tell you who IS suffering and that is the OM, his EX, Bob and his children. Sorry Dewt, but these are the people who have suffered losses. Those are the victims here.

The WW did not suffer a loss and is not deserving of any sympathy.

Nor should she be accommodated in her nasty, mean adoption of the grief of others in order to justify being cruel to her family.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong> [QUOTE]I will tell you who IS suffering and that is the OM, his EX, Bob and his children. Sorry Dewt, but these are the people who have suffered losses. Those are the victims here. </strong>[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Victims? Of what crime? Not more than of an unthinkably unfortunate loss which had nothing to do with the A.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The WW did not suffer a loss and is not deserving of any sympathy. </strong> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In relation to this tradgedy? No. But she has suffered the loss of her marriage, her family unit, her hopes and dreams, her clarity, her integrity, her sense of right and wrong... and right now, she is involved in a drama.

And Bob wants to save his marriage. Which, in Plan A, means not being unduly harsh, critical, unfeeling or disrespectfully judgemental.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nor should she be accommodated in her nasty, mean adoption of the grief of others in order to justify being cruel to her family. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course not. There is no justification for being cruel. Ever.

John

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course not. There is no justification for being cruel. Ever.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And finally we agree on something, there is no excuse for cruelty.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And Bob wants to save his marriage. Which, in Plan A, means not being unduly harsh, critical, unfeeling or disrespectfully judgemental.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No one has ever suggested otherwise. On the other hand, that does not mean he allows himself to be manipulated with her supposed borrowed "grief."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No. But she has suffered the loss of her marriage, her family unit, her hopes and dreams, her clarity, her integrity, her sense of right and wrong... and right now, she is involved in a drama.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, she didn't. She threw all those things away... WILLINGLY.

<small>[ August 22, 2004, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

I agree with ML

People are very quick to hand out sympathy, compassion, etc. Also forgiveness IMO. There are situations in which they are just not warranted and are cheapened by casual use...in my opinion this is one of them.

Maybe Bob's wife is feeling some pain right now. When you see someone lose a child, doesn't it make you want to hold on to yours a little tighter? Considering what she's putting her family through right now, she has to be feeling confused. I imagine her world has been shaken. She's probably having feelings she's not sure what to do with if she's even able to face them at all.

By the way Bob, I always read your posts. You amaze me with how well you are doing believe it or not!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by noodle:
<strong> I agree with ML

People are very quick to hand out sympathy, compassion, etc. Also forgiveness IMO. There are situations in which they are just not warranted and are cheapened by casual use...in my opinion this is one of them. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And noodle, it does NOTHING for the receiver at all. The entire point is to make the giver "feel" good and holy moly. It is often done for very selfish reasons so the giver can point to oneself and say "see how holy and altrustic I am??" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I'm going to take that a step further and use an example from my own past.

A long time ago..I was extended a very gracious offer by a couple to allow me to buy their car from them with payments rather than pay upfront the entire price. This was an example of grace. I was young, and poor, and I needed the car. They saw my need and offered to help.

So one day..I made my payment late..I had just forgotten to mail it and didn't notice it sitting on top of the fridge [always the best place for outgoing mail if you are short, no?]..so I added a hasty and very dismissive apology and sent it out.

A few days later I received a note from them that said ..we have discussed it, and we have decided to accept your apology. Which clearly implies that they might have decided otherwise. The shame....I had not even understood the depth of the disrespect and the tresspass until they held a mirror up to my face and let me see my disregard for honoring my contract exactly for what it was..and also to see my shabby apology [they mailed it with their note].

I could well understand at that point how I must have looked to them..ungratefull and very selfish. I would not have realized this had they not stood their ground. They were not harsh or nasty..but the message was very clear indeed. I have great respect for these good people..and I am better for having known them. Had they responded with more *kindness* I may well have continued on my path undeterred.

Compassion, sympathy..all of these virtues can be made into vices if misapplied. Encouraging an unstable woman to wallow in her own constructed grief benefits no one..and is not an act of kindness in my opinion.

Nope....I REFUSE! I said I wouldn't be posting anymore! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I am sorry that my post has aroused such passions here amongst friends.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Let me make it clear:I think it is foggy self-pity that is making my WW as miserable as she has become. In her fairy tale world the OMs kids have become HER kids. I think it a pity that she demonstrated more compassion for the dead son of her lover than for the God given babies we made together on this day.

I told my WW that I was very sorry for OMs loss, and that despite our current situation, as a father I can only imagine what he is going through.

I also said that I am always saddened when my WW is sad and that if there is anything I can do, I will do it.

I did not at any time acknowledge that this was in some sick, warped way my WWs tragedy. ML is correct: it is NOT.

The loss of a child is my greatest fear, and this has been visted upon OM. I can take no pleasure in that whatever my opinion of him.

I think one reason my WW is so bloody miserable over this is she realises that there is NO WAY now that OM is going to leave his youngest son & GF tobe with WW. The crack in the A fantasy is now a foot wide and crumbling.

The cream on the cake was my gracious handling of the love letters/proof of PA situation.

WW knows its all over bar the shouting.

I am saddened by this whole situation, and I canonly imagine the house of pain that OMs honme has become. BUT I want my WW back, and I will continue to be a beacon of calm ,welcome and support for when/if my WW chooses to realise her fantasy is just that: fantasy.

I pray that OM buries himself in the heart of his family and abandons his A.

Thanks for your input at this HUGE time everyone.

Oh and also I am trying VERY HARD not to resent my WW for her response to this.

My first reaction when I heard this tragedy was to hug my kids, tell them I love them and take the dog and kids for a nature walk through the woods.

My kids have always been precious to me, but to hear of someone losing their children makes me even more grateful for my beautiful, funny, smart loving children and the love we share.

That my WW chose to mope, sulk, sigh and sit in tears in front of our kids, making them concerned for mommy's well being is almost unforgivable.

She almost managed to ruin a lovely family dinner too this evening with her affected misery.

My DD said at bedtime " 'c'oh! Mommy's fed up again ! Where we going tomorrow Dad ?". Poor baby - she has become accepting that Mommy's wallowing in her own mire again, so Daddy will take the kids on a fun day to get the heck out of the way.

Soon - maybe sooner that I originally planned - My WW can get out ofour lives for a while and plan B. She is a poison influence on mykids right now and I think soon her absence might be better for them that her miserable presence.

If and when my WW wakes up from this, she better drop to her knees and Seek God's forgiveness for what she has done to our children.

I've just read this entire thread and have had one strong thought the entire time... I don't want to sound cold or uncaring or insulting, but I wonder just how much ww is suffering over the om's loss? I'm sure she feels bad about it, but I think her behavior is a bit much. When a close friend of mine lost her young son, it was God awful. But I sure didn't turn on my own family!

I tend to think ww is way too selfish, and is only thinking of what this tragedy might do to her & om. Then, I think she's using the om's son's death to mask what she's really upset about... her & om's relationship/future. I mean, she can't hardly cry around about "what's going to happen to me & om now".

Just my thoughts...

Isleepwithacat

ISWAC, those are pretty much my thoughts too.

However she is so caught up in the A fog that I think she 'projects' herself as OMs spouse and is 'trying' to be badly affected by this tragedy.

Horseheet.

I am trying to think of a way to discuss this without LBing, but as wise MBers say " a closed mouth gathers no foot ".

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Crap times all, but I see nothing that makes my reclaiming my Wife's love less likely.

I pray that I do not get sick of her teenaged-sulking ways and kick her out before that happens.

I hope I can be a voice of reason on this thread. I would like to ask people not to forget the purpose of this post, which is not whether or not ML's point is right or dewt's point is right...the purpose of THIS thread is to help/support/assist Bob in getting through this time with his WW, considering this added new twist to the situation. Our focus here is BOB not the OM's pain -or- whether the WW deserves sympathy.

The facts are rather plain:
1) OM and WW had an affair
2) OM and WW have ongoing contact
3) The A was exposed
4) WW is still living at home
5) OM denied WW to GF
6) OM's oldest son died.

Our mission, should we choose to accept it, is to help Bob keep his head on straight in the face of so much fog from his WW that it would choke the average man!! Our job is to encourage, validate, and support--and give him a swift kick in the heiney or a 2x4 as required too!!

Bob, this is my very humble opinion. Up to this point, I believe your view of the OM was pretty much "scum of the earth, lowest life on this planet, not worthy of wiping the dog dew off on him". Now this tragedy has occurred, and no matter what bad choices he made, and no matter what bad choices your WW has made, no human deserves this...and that's when it hits you. Messed up guy, yes, but he IS a hurting human being. He is a fellow human and child of God just like you or I.

I hope the change that is born in you today, Bob, is to see your WW and the OM as human beings. They have indeed made many choices that have hurt many people--including themselves--but they are not monsters.

The second thing I would say is that if you look at it rationally, there is no reason why your WW should be hurting right now, since her children are safe and sound, and her life partner is alive and loves her. BUT...logic does not always rule either a woman or emotions!! haha (no kidding!!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> So the fact of the matter is...she does hurt. She is probably feeling sympathy for someone she still foggily believes she cares for. I don't think there's any reason to treat her without civility and some degree of understanding, but there's also no reason to "comfort" her because she has had no loss. Thus, I would think it reasonable to carry on with your life with the kids, to continue in some of your caring routine for them and her, and to express some sorrow at hearing the bad news...at the same level you might express sorrow if you heard that your boss's son died or the neighbor's son died. It's still a sad situation--it just does not require all the drama she's looking for. I don't think you need to be utterly unsympathetic--for example, "I can see that you are very upset about this" or "It seems that this sad news has hit you hard" might be appropriate statements.

One relatively "easy" way to judge if her actions are the melodrama or reasonable would be to aks yourself "would she act like this if one of her girlfriend's children died?" or "would I accept this behavior if one of our close family friend's children died?" If the answer is "no" you would not accept that kind of behavior--then don't accept it now. OTOH, if you could honestly say that she might react that way for a cousin or behave that way for a kid in her sunday school--then I'd say it reasonable and you could comfort her.

Does that help? A little practical help??? (((((((((Bob))))))))))


CJ

FNCJ yours are sage words.

I am not sure how I can choose to accept WWs response to this occurrence or not though to be honest.

I cannot say "pull yourself together, you are overreacting" to her without it being a massive LB.

Also, I believe as I have said earlier that some ( or most) of her grief is a reaction to the inexorable decay of the A.

AND I expected her to hate me when I took copies of the love letters/proof of PA remember. And she does !

I have never considered OM to be a monster, just a cynical, using , unpleasant person who is an active enemy of my family and who does not deserve the 'love' my WW gives him.

And I believe my WW chose to respond in a different way than I to the challenges in our marriage this past year. She is not a monster either, although her behaviour towards me and our children could be construed as bad if not monstrous right now.

I will continue to plan A and will consider when to submit the proof of PA to OM GF.

Right now THEIR pain is far more important than mine, and I WILL NOT exploit their genuine tragedy to score affair-ending points whatever advice I am getting from some quarters here. I would be a monster if I chose to compound OM and family's pain by reminding them of the A right now.

Just imagine what OM GF, OM SS and OM are going through right now. Pain of A exposure, uncertainty as to the future, heart pain guilt and now existential grief. Theirs is truly a house of pain right now. There is no "beacon of welcome and calm " in that house.

If OM is NOT a monster he is hurting very badly right now and is wracked with guilt about his treatment of his current, and previous family. It could be he will reassess his life priorities and the A may not be in that list.

Or he may not think that way and continue his selfish A.

In any case I will wait and see what happens over the next couple of days. I believe it is the decent thing to do.

Thank you all for your opinions and support for me and my family at this difficult time.

You are wonderful. {{{mb}}}

<small>[ August 23, 2004, 02:50 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Bob Pure:
<strong> I am not sure how I can choose to accept WWs response to this occurrence or not though to be honest. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bob, it's statements like these that lead me to believe you are getting closer and closer to Plan B. If I am correct, what you are saying here is that you can see for yourself that your WW is indeed hurting, but you are losing tons of love for her due to her response to this occurrence. She is dramatic and heartsick at the thought of OM losing a son she did not know...and in the very same breath she is willing to harm to the core the children she raised and knows! It breeds GREAT resentment in you.

Is that what you're saying?? That while you may comprehend intellectually, that emotionally and spiritually you can not justify it within yourself? And even when all this is over, there is going to be a LARGE issue with the way that she chose to hurt her own children? And when/if the time comes that you are recovering, you wonder how you could possibly "accept" what she did to them?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I cannot say "pull yourself together, you are overreacting" to her without it being a massive LB.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah--even in her self-induced state of pain, saying "get over it" would be an LB. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I sounded to me as if you plan was to basically leave her alone to deal with her own pain ("a closed mouth gathers no foot"), and while I basically agree that plan is probably best, you may want to inform her that is what you are doing--otherwise it might come across as giving her the "cold shoulder" just when she needed sympathy (poor baby). How about something like: "I can see that you are in pain, but I believe it is pain you need to work through yourself, so I am going to just keep quiet and let you deal with it."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Also, I believe as I have said earlier that some (or most) of her grief is a reaction to the inexorable decay of the A. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Boy, I couldn't agree with you more on this one!! Her grief is about 90% "he's not going to be able to continue this A because he's got other things to focus on!"-- about 9% sadness that someone she THINKS she cares for is hurting -- and about 1% recognizing that now it's not a secret, now GF took him to reconcile, now you've got proof of PA, now OM's son has died...and it just can not survive. Her grief is that she wanted the A to continue and it was "killed" out from under her before she was prepared.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Right now THEIR pain is far more important than mine, and I WILL NOT exploit their genuine tragedy to score affair-ending points whatever advice I am getting from some quarters here. I would be a monster if I chose to compound OM and family's pain by reminding them of the A right now.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Quite frankly, I think this is a wise move. The OM and his family are a mess right now, and it would be rubbing salt into the wound.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>If OM is NOT a monster he is hurting very badly right now and is wracked with guilt about his treatment of his current, and previous family. It could be he will reassess his life priorities and the A may not be in that list.

Or he may not think that way and continue his selfish A.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmmm...I used to think this way about WS's...that they would be wracked with guilt when facing the destruction they had caused. But Bob, you are forgetting a very important part of this equation. WS's often are the type that "run away" (not ALL of course, but 50% or more). Thus, when faced with the destruction and rubble all around them, time after time I have seen the WS fail to take personal responsibility, blame the BS somehow, and run away from the disaster they have created. I can not understand this phenomenon, but I have seen it time and again...WS's that defend literally TO THEIR DEATH that their decision to destroy everyone and everything in their life was "right" despite all the evidence. When faced with something they can not possibly escape from, I've seen WS's project blame onto the BS and then run away.

I would be very surprised if the OM is wracked with guilt about his treatment of his current, and previous family -OR- reassessing his life priorities. I consider it MUCH more likely that shortly he will ditch his YS and GF, leave WW behind like she never existed, and run away (yes, probably literally MOVE AWAY) to get away from his responsibilities.


CJ

FNCL another thought provoking reply, thanks....

My point about 'not accepting her response' meant that I am not sure that my NOT accepting WWs overreaction to this situation will affect anyone but myself. If I tell my WW her reaction is unacceptable, she won't care. She will do what she wants to do.

Also regarding Plan B, there are challenges ( I posted in the 'planA/plan B forum). My WW and the OM have no source of income other than their spouse/partners, OM has denied WW to his GF and was reconciling like mad even BEFORE this tragedy and the A is crumbling, so all plan B would do right now is move my WW out on her own to be potentially visited for convenient sex and sympathy by the OM should he choose to.

Its all a mess, but when you strip away the histrionics, my Plan A has had a LOT of effect in a few weeks.

A previously "solid" fantasy affair has stopped all PA, led to denials of WW and reconciliation attempts in OMs family, WW making small plans to stay at home and now this tragedy has hit OM and I don't see how it can lead to him throwing his energies into reigniting the A.

And I have gotten stronger: much stronger.

All in all thats been a pretty successful 3 weeks of Plan A I think.

When I remove my emotions from this I think it is worth continuing plan A and exposures for a while yet.

Also this morning my WW had a letter from her insurance company. She said 'Why haven't you opened that? I seem to have nothing else private from you". Yeah, like I was unreasonable...

My discovery and copying of the love letters has really gotten to her.

Its a horrible mess BUT I can COUNT the things plan A has achieved in a short time.

It must be worth continuing for a while.

Finally I understad your comments concerning the OM. I can't empathise with that position, as it is absolutely against my nature to run away or abandon, but the truth of your words is manifest.

He has, after all, run away from three previous marrigaes. Why not this GF and this tragedy ?

<small>[ August 23, 2004, 03:40 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

Bob

I'd have to say he does sound like a runner and may one day leave his GF if he can find someone else to support him. And I'd have to say thats probably not your WW.
He appears to have done it all his life.
For his & GF son's sake I hope he doesn't.

However, he cannot and will NEVER be able to run away from a tragedy which has taken the life of his oldest child. Not unless he is devoid of all human feeling and I don't believe that. We may judge him harshly here because of his behaviour but hes not a monster, miserable excuse for a man right now perhaps, but even he can change if he wants to I suppose.

Even now though, I think his GF does need to know whats on the letters, perhaps in a day or two as you planned. After all, she needs the truth to plan for her sons security and happiness and her own. If she accepts him back does she not deserve to do it with open eyes knowing the worst? Like you??

Just a thought.