Hey all,
thanks for the late responders last night. sorry i didn't get back to you sooner.
Approach wife with what i found and stated that her and the other ladies on her business trip had decided to have a hot dog roast so supposedly someone brought in a George Foreman Grill. They had left overs and WW decided to bring them home.
WW was more pissed because she figured i was snooping in her suitcase looking for stuff when there wasn't anything to be found. Stated that all i had to do was ask at the time i found them.
I've decided to put the radar in hibernation for now. WW has not given me any reason up to our policy of open honesty to doubt her. She states that it is hurting her that i am doing this and probably hurting us more with moving on thn it is helping us.
I think sometimes being overly suspicisous can actually hurt the recovery process than help. Which right now what it seems like it is doing for us. 2 steps foreward 5 steps back.
Radar is down for right now but not completely off. Radar has been working hard since May and now time for it to come down a little.
We both just want to move on and get to the point where we can be happy with each other again and not constantly talk about our problems and past events (affair). Where still in counseling and need to let that work.
She has had no contact with OM for over a mo.now and by me constantly bringing up stuff from the affair it throws her back and i am depleting any love units i have deposited.
Thanks again for advice
Will keep you updated.
jets

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She states that it is hurting her that i am doing this and probably hurting us more with moving on thn it is helping us. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is absolute HORSECRAP!

Your wife CREATED this issue and destroyed your sense of security. It is HER responsibility at this point to be very open about what's going on AND to not get upset with you for responding in a very natural fashion to a situation where your trust in her was abused.

Explain to her that if she is exceptionally OPEN, you won't have to snoop, but that she should be prepared to provide re-assurance to you when you perceive something to be suspicious. Hotdog in suitcase is pretty dang out of the ordinary.

This was tough for me to learn to do but I understood why I had to do it and did it anyway. Nowadays, I answer her concerns as if she is asking about the weather. I no longer have anything to hide and it helps her feel more secure. What would I have to get upset about?

It sounds like she is expecting you to automatically extend her your trust again. Tell her she will get more and more of it as she continues to behave in a consistent trustworthy manner, but that right now, you're not there. It might take you a while to get there. She should be willing to extend you this courtesy. Sounds like she's wanting to go the "pretend it didn't happen" route. Sounds like she's sucking you into that.

Asking her to help you feel more secure is NOT a lovebuster. It's expressing your emotional need to her and giving her an opportunity to meet it.

Low

<small>[ August 25, 2004, 08:21 AM: Message edited by: LowOrbit ]</small>

Wait a minute, jets, you have this all backwards. You should NOT put your "radar" down until she EARNS YOUR TRUST. You would be a FOOL to trust an untrustworthy person. You should not stop snooping until she has proven that she is trustworthy. You have a responsibility to protect yourself FROM HER and that includes snooping.

If she gets mad because you don't trust her, tell her that of course you don't trust her, she is untrustworthy.

If she were SINCERE about being honest, she shouldn't mind that you check up on her. But her anger over this makes me think she is NOT being honest. People who have nothing to hide.....don't hide.

Like LowOrbit said, it is HER RESPONSIBILITY to regain your trust. What is she doing to earn it, jets?

Jets,

Are you out of your freaking mind??????????? Your WW needs to know that part of the repercussions of what she did have consequences. If she can not only accept your monitoring( if she was sick, and she is, you would check periodically)she needs to embrace and even welcome that monitoring because SHE NOW HAS TO REPAIR WHAT SHE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR DESTROYING. Check my bio with a quote I stole from poster Noodle. It is a code to live by on this forum and in your life.

Best of luck.

Did you examine her life as you do before she had her affair? If so, then you have an issue to deal with, if not, then you can demonstrate that this is cause/effect. This is an issue she created and you will work towards trusting her with a serious effort, but right now, this is what you are. You are trying to trust, and that twisting this into a issue about you snooping won't succeed right now. Try to stand your ground. It's tough, I know, but, learning your authority in your relationship right now will enable you to proceed with confidence when real issues arrive.

Well Jets you have some similar opinions here. I don’t know your story and I don’t know the hotdog story but I don’t think I have to. Let me flip the coin a bit because I personally think you’re on the right track and if only for one reason here it is:

If. you tell her that of course you don't trust her, she is untrustworthy.
It’s an unfair Judgment and a LB because possibly for the past month she has had NC and has not been untrustworthy. No doubt that statement will leave her with the “why bother feelings”. In my opinion it’s not good for your plan A efforts.

I always tried to remember the painful truth that my W’s OM was her foggy soul mate. He listened, understood, empathized and other then the guilt caused by her actions he rarely caused her emotional discomfort. So if I was the cause of her discomfort I was adding to his knight in shining armor persona, bad for me, good for him. (Sometimes I got it right, often I didn’t)

I’m not going 100% against what the others have said, she has to earn your trust and she has to know this won’t happen over night but there is a right way to express that. I agree you should continue to leave your radar on but be cautious with how you handle the blips it produces on your overly sensitive screen.

You can’t be a doormat because you’ll never heal and you can’t be a tyrant because you’ll push her to him.

My advice is to establish your boundaries, express them to her and find that line between doormat and Tyrant.

God Bless,
Oz

<small>[ August 25, 2004, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: oswald ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by oswald:
<strong>

If. you tell her that of course you don't trust her, she is untrustworthy.
It’s an unfair Judgment and a LB because possibly for the past month she has had NC and has not been untrustworthy. No doubt that statement will leave her with the “why bother feelings”. In my opinion it’s not good for your plan A efforts.

Oz </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oz, I do agree with you that one has to be cautious with disrespectful judgements, however, in this case, I found that saying this to my H had a profound positive effect on my marriage. A WS should never be protected from the natural consequences of his affair. My H was trying to divert the subject with the standard old disingenious defense "you don't trust me!" Once I agreed with him, he stopped using it and we were able to discuss the REAL ISSUE.

If a person will throw in the towel because they don't receive something that is undeserved, or they have to face the natural consequences of thier affair, then they weren't serious in the first place. One shouldn't be granted undeserved trust or protected from consequences. Pretense helps no one.

My H felt like he just "deserved" trust and was a "trustworthy person." He was quite shocked when I pointed out to him that his actions were not those of a trustworthy man, therefore I could not trust him.

This had 2 effects. He started seeing himself through MY EYES. And he became more understanding about my [rightful] insecurity about his trustworthiness. So, instead of making him throw in the towel, it opened his eyes. He stopped demanding undeserved trust and started working on earning it.

Of course, Jet will have to use his best judgement on how to present this to his W, but the principle DOES need to be conveyed to his WS in order for her to understand that building trust is HER responsibility and he has a right to protect himself in the meantime. She needs to understand his position, and that is that he shouldn't trust an untrustworthy person. That is a much needed consequence of an affair that a WS should not be protected from.

Jets,

I agree with everyone else. Melody said it well. She needs to see it through your eyes before any real healing will occur.

Let me explain it this way. Did you like the fact that LIES were in your marriage? Do you like the fact that lies may still be in your marriage? Do you think you will trust your W because she "says so."

If the answer to these is NO, then why would you introduce lies into the marriage?? You are. You can tell her in a non LB way, that of course you don't trust her and she will have to earn that trust and for that to happen independent varification of her behavior and statements will occur for awhile.

It may make her "feel" better if you lie to her and tell her you trust her, but it is NOT helping your marriage and it sure is not helping your recovery. Lies in a marriage do not help it.

You don't trust her. YOu have a very good reason to NOT trust her. You hope to trust her because you will NOT live for long with someone you cannot trust, and you are working on rebuilding that trust but you REQUIRE her help. You just might want to tell her this.

She has not faced what she has lost with this affair. Gradually she will have breakthroughs and it will become more obvious to her just what she lost even if the marriage makes it.

Hang in there and be honest with her.

God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Approach wife with what i found and stated that her and the other ladies on her business trip had decided to have a hot dog roast so supposedly someone brought in a George Foreman Grill. They had left overs and WW decided to bring them home.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry to be such a skeptic, but perhaps the reason your wife got so angry is because she was caught. Her response to you is the biggest crock of baloney unless she works for the cheapest employer on earth. I travel regularly for business and the only time I ever took food of my own was when I took a few energy bars to supplement the diet I was on. Meal expenses are reimburseable through expense statement. Also, I cannot imagine anyone wanting to weigh down their suitcase with a George Foreman Grill... This story just doesn't fly with me....

Brit's Brat/BS-43
XH-45
DS-almost 3
Status: D-day May 2001, Divorce final May 2004 after 2 years of attempting to recover marriage despite continued contact.

Excuse me, I ask indulgence for my ignorance. Can anyone tell me why calling someone to task on a lie is an LB? Perhaps I just don't understand the LB concept.....

Hey all,
Read most of responses, and to some degree i agree with most of what you are suggesting.
Spoke with Ww and she knows that i have trust issues she realizes that this whole f'ing affair has caused that and she is not denying that. I have advised her that we have to have to be exceptionally open andhonest. She states that she has been , states she honestly cannot live telling me everylittle detail of what went on during her day. I have told her i understand that and don't care to know how many times she took a dump and how much toilet paper she used. Stated that this is a issue for me and to be as open as she can will help me to get through this. She states she has been there and there is nothing to be found.
I am taking all that has been adviced but leaning towards Oz. I have not shut the radar down but can't over react to some of the blips that go by on radar. I too like you Oz am getting a little obsessive over the snooping. OM has been out of the picture but just this constant act of checking behind her for every little thing i feel can drive someone away just from the act alone.
She knows i will not be made a fool of again and admits that if this marriage should ever fail it won't be because of Affair but because of the way we failed each other in meeting the needs of each other.
So the Radar is still on just not going to overreact to every blip that goes by and trust is there not at a 100% but she knows this.
I believe WW is really trying to put a hard effort in trying to make this marriage work. As counselor said if she didn't want to make this work why would she still be here with me or even going through counseling with me. She had her opportunity to go and i didn't prevent her from doing it. She chose to stay in our marriage because she still loves me and loves our family this per her admittance. Maybe it is too soon, to feel some type of security , maybe it is not. She knows though that i will not go through this again in my life.
jets.

Jets..

What is she willing to provide, besides her good word, that her story is true?

The name and # of the person who brought the grill?

Some other women who participated?

Remember, you did not ask for every detail of her day...you asked for specific information regarding some unusual articles in her suitcase apon her returning from a trip mere weeks after the discovery of her affair.

Your wife should be recruited by NATO...she'd have the other guys apologising during negotiations for certain.

Also..snooping is now officially banished from her vocabulary..says me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ..it is called investigating and verifying and ascertaining the truthfull account of how events played out for comparison with her story.

She will just have to get used to being irritated with the fact that her word is now suspect..even if it is later found to be true..and that is just fine..it is not an invasion of her rights..it is verification that she is respecting the boundaries of your marriage. It is re-establishing trust. If she is in fact being as honest with you as she claims..she should have no trouble handing you the info you need. Think of all the trouble it would save.

Again, not to be the skeptic here, but how are you so certain she has nc w/ OM? There were many instances where I believed by XH's assurances of nc only to find out weeks later that they had merely found another way of communicating behind my back. Each time I discovered their continued contact, XH reacted EXACTLY the same way as your wife responded to your questions re: the hotdogs - in fact, even the same words/ideas down to a "t" - its that fogese. If she is truly sorry for what she has done and there is no further contact, she would do whatever it takes for you to feel comfortable and would have no problems with your "investigating" or whatever else you want to call it.

Regards,

Brits Brat

BritBrat,
I don't think she is in contact with OM. Certain thinks have not been happening like when she was in contact. I am not getting any of her foggy talk that she was giving me before. She not telling me she feels numb around me anymore. She is becoming more open to letting me be affectionate toward her,ex. cuddling, hugging, kissing, holding hands.
Cell phone hasn't been going off 2-3 times a night, hasn't been going off at all since she broke off relationship.
She is no longer on computer at weird hours or locking doors behind her, or minimizing screens when i walk into a room like she used to.
Again if she was still in with the OM, why bother with going through counseling or any of this, when i gave her the opportunity to leave without any repercussions.
I know the whole Hot Dog in suitcase seems strange, but why would she bring any of that stuff home if she wanted no evidence?
jets

A bit of clarification of my opinion, I think Jets got what I was saying but for those in favor hanging the WS by the fingernails I’ll try to elaborate.

Is a WS pond scum, a lowly creature never to be trusted, scheming 24/7 on how to make your life miserable? At some point, in some small way, probably yes. But anyone who thinks beating a WS into submission, (except immediately after D-Day) and demanding to see continued retribution will sustain the recovery of the M and lead to healing for both partners is nuts.

Please don’t misunderstand that, I’m not a doormat advocate. I’m all in favor of establishing and making your boundaries known i.e. “Do this again and I walk” and any others you need to feel personally protected. That is honesty and you owe the WS your honesty.

Cymanca, I’m all in favor of calling someone on a lie if you know there has been one. However, I feel strongly there is right way to this. For instance, I know that you were not honest about X and that dishonesty makes ME feel Y and Z, “without judgment” is as close to non-LB as you can get. Smacking them with a hammer for it gains you nothing and yes it’s a LB.

I just feel that if a WS is committed to recovering the M you can’t keep beating them because your angry over what they did before they committed. I know that idea stinks, you have to be nice to the person that hurt you so badly when you would be justified in hanging them by the nails. Years ago I equated it to smiling while your stomach is being pulled through your nose it bites, But in the end what is more important to you, being right or saving your M?

Just my opinion, I’m no expert
Oz

duplicate post

<small>[ August 25, 2004, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: LowOrbit ]</small>

Oz..

You are ignorring the issue of deceit though...I'm mostly in agreement with you..but a person has no way to know if their boundaries are being respected unless they are able to verify that they are. You can not say I know you have been dishonest about X unless you have investigated X.

It isn't about punishment..it is about recovery.

The WS needs to be a completely open book in order for the BS to begin to have grounds on which to trust them again.

When a WS bucks against having their words/actions examined it often is a red flag...it strongly suggests that either there is indeed something to hide..or that the WS has is not willing to humble him or herself and admit that their behavior has been very untrustworthy. It is a refusal to pay the consequences of their actions...this leaves the relationship stalled and stranded. In order to move forward both parties have to work together.

The BS can ask their questions in a respectfull manner...

The BS can choose to be a safe place for the WS to be honest...

This is not a beating. Smiling while having your stomach pulled out through your nose is dishonest..that has no place in recovery.

In this instance..I think being right is the only way to save your marriage. These issues need to be dealt with.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I just feel that if a WS is committed to recovering the M you can’t keep beating them because your angry over what they did before they committed. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Herein is the issue, Oz...

If the WS is committed to recovery, then reassuring their insecure spouse should not feel like a "beating". It SHOULD be an opportunity to rebuild trust. In fact, the FWS should welcome opportunities to show their spouse that they are being true. They should be willing be as transparent as it takes to help their spouse feel better. If that means having to tell her how many times I took a dump that day, then SO BE IT!

Like I said, it's not easy for the WS to do this, but whoever said fixing this mess was going to be easy?

jet, you are only a month out from d-day, right? It's entirely unreasonable of her to expect you to extend her unwarranted trust.

It is foolish on your part to extend her trust that she hasn't earned, regardless of how uncomfortable it all makes you feel.

Explain to your wife that if she is serious about recovering this marriage, that you need her to help you regain trust. That means that she must be willing to be open to your queries as uncomfortable as it may be. Assure her that it won't last forever, but she must surely see that this is something that won't be fixed overnight. Tell her that you are her biggest cheerleader and you really WANT her to be successful...that you truly do not desire to discover more bad news. Explain that your vigilance helps protect her and your marriage during this vulnerable time.

Be kind to her about this, but also be very clear. I'd advise you to be very open about your snooping as well. She doesn't need to feel like you are checking up on her behind her back.

My wife used to check my email and browser history right in front of me. Sometimes my heart would say "Darn, she still doesn't trust me..." but my head would say "Good, maybe she'll see that I have been good and she will begin to trust me more."

I suppose it is a matter of tact. Do not bludgeon her to death with your snooping. Be sensitive to her feelings of being smothered.

BUT...whatever you do, don't turn the radar off...it's too soon.

Low

Very well put L.O. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are ignorring the issue of deceit though...I'm mostly in agreement with you..but a person has no way to know if their boundaries are being respected unless they are able to verify that they are. You can not say I know you have been dishonest about X unless you have investigated X.

It isn't about punishment..it is about recovery.

The BS can ask their questions in a respectfull manner...

The BS can choose to be a safe place for the WS to be honest... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Noodle,
I think we are on the same page. I’m all in favor of checking up on your WS and even asking respectful questions and I agree the WS should be an open book. Where I threw caution on this is not to over react to every blip on the radar screen, it gets tiresome.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When a WS bucks against having their words/actions examined it often is a red flag...it strongly suggests that either there is indeed something to hide..or that the WS has is not willing to humble him or herself and admit that their behavior has been very untrustworthy. It is a refusal to pay the consequences of their actions...this leaves the relationship stalled and stranded. In order to move forward both parties have to work together. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is all be true and I agree but you left out one possibly, couldn’t it be that the WS is being open and honest yet gets frustrated by being made to feel like pond scum when they have done nothing wrong “lately” I guess what I’m saying is that if I were a WS who is committed, has done nothing wrong but is constantly under a microscope I might react this way out of frustration. Just a thought.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is not a beating. Smiling while having your stomach pulled out through your nose is dishonest..that has no place in recovery.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Long term I agree, short term I disagree. If a WS needs to talk about the pain of withdraw is it better for us to cringe and take it as we console them empathetically while they get through it or is it better to tell them how we really feel and beat them over the head with it?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In this instance..I think being right is the only way to save your marriage. These issues need to be dealt with.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If by in this instance you mean expecting honesty I agree. If you mean demanding it with unfair judgments and LB I disagree because being right this way only reinforces the justification WS had for the A while in the fog.

Again JMHO

Oz