</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Comfortably Numb:
<strong>

Even Harley says that he is one of the few practitioners that hold this view. That is why I think it is his personal moral view, not one that was arrived upon by research.

If I am wrong, I would love to read the scientific article where this is presented. I'm a data kind of guy. I know what your OPINION is I would like to see the supporting evidence. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">CN, Harley claims in his own bio that his success rate was over 90% in his practice and while that is anecdotal, I have no reason to doubt him. We don't need a "scientific study" to discern truth. He is one of the most popular, effective and well published marriage counselors in the US, so I have no reason to doubt his word.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi2000_meet.html

On the other hand, traditional marriage counselors have a notoriously high failure rate. That is because most are not pro-marriage, they are pro-divorce.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Even Harley says that he is one of the few practitioners that hold this view. That is why I think it is his personal moral view, not one that was arrived upon by research.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, Harley is one of the few practitioners who hold this view, as I said, most counselors are moral relativists and have a high failure rates. But, a viewpoint's validity is determined by it's aspects, NOT by how many people support it.

However, I don't think that one needs to do "research" to know that honesty is the best policy. While honesty is a moral issue, more than anything, it can be supported rationally and pragmatically. Deceit can never be supported rationally nor could it be successfully argued that it is ever helpful for marriages.

Again, regardless of its "moral" underpinnings, a viewpoint is only as good as the aspects that support it. And logic only supports honesty. The notion that it is effective to lie your way to a happy marriage is simply not defensible and is foolish. It is politcally correct boob bait that can't withstand scrutiny. Although it is the moral way, and morals ARE absolute, we always come back to the main premise: is it logical?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Comfortably Numb:
<strong>

Even Harley says that he is one of the few practitioners that hold this view. That is why I think it is his personal moral view, not one that was arrived upon by research.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Since you require research to come to your conclusion, I presume you have research that supports that deceit and lies are healthy practices in a marriage? Could we see that please?

My W omits the truth regularly these days. She has told me in the past she has lied or omitted the truth to save my feelings. RUBBISH! She omitted truth because she didn't want me to know the truth. PERIOD! She was ashamed of the truth and moreso afraid of the consequences of the truth.

My truest barometer with her fog state is seeing how upset she gets when I discover her lies or secrets. She still blames me for finding out the answers to questions or her actions by snooping.

"How else can I know the truth if you won't be HONEST"

She changed her email account today because I was able I cracked it and found out some of her secrets. As far as I'm concerned, if you aren't HONEST in a M then that M has no HOPE! The first step in solving any problem is to identify the problem and being dishonest only compounds the situation and allows it grow. I can handle honesty its the LIES and OMISSIONS that I can't handle. The bottom line is my W wants to continue her R with OM and her lying about it only prolongs my agony. Her being dishonest takes away my freedom of choice, because with accurate information we are able to make informed decisions in our lives. She does not help our M or me by lying, she instead is only further derailing US and impeding our chances of reconciliatin and recovery, but since right now she not sure if she wants or doesn't want to be M to me it makes sense, it's UNETHICAL but it makes sense. You are honest with your spouse if you genuinely want to save your M because only by tackling the causes of those things you lie about can your M actually be saved.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Comfortably Numb:
<strong>

Even Harley says that he is one of the few practitioners that hold this view. That is why I think it is his personal moral view, not one that was arrived upon by research.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Since you require research to come to your conclusion, I presume you have research that supports that deceit and lies are healthy practices in a marriage? Could we see that please? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Can you offer nothing more than conjecture, here say, an anecdotal information to support your view?

The fact remains that and absolute demand that an affair be admitted has a better marital outcome then not-admitting has not been proved. I could care less if it is the “right thing to do”. I think it matters more if marriages can be reconciled, especially if there are children involved. Divorce is devastating to children, I can post some refs. if you doubt this.

In your moral absolutism, what does one do if their spouse is potentially violent? Does one confess and hope for the best? Maybe they won’t kill me?

Lifted form the local news here, and much abbreviated. Wife admits to affair, husband shoot her in the head. This happened in a department store parking lot as she and the kids were walking to the car.

Moral absolutes are fine in theory, it is when they touch the lives or real people that it becomes complicated.

Finally, I am not advocating a position Melody, you are. That is why I asked you for the data to back up what you are presenting as the truth. You can’t . . . maybe because it doesn’t exists

Dear Brownhair,

I too heard I lied because I didn't want to hurt you. This line ticks me off because I begged him to tell me the full truth after I found out about the PA. He lied and I finally got it all 6 months later ( I think). Lying during recovery is devastating for the BS. Here you are at the pit of despair, thinking you are crawling out only to find later more dirt is raining down on you.

I think the WS lies as a way to avoid the full magnitude of what they have done. My WH lied about using a condom. I think when I asked him about using a condom it occurred to him how much he had put his own and my life at risk for his fling and he couldn't face it. I genuinely don't understand how he could not see that before the A.

I think lying is bad for marriages for a couple of reasons:
1) it keeps spouses from getting close
2) it shows that the lying spouse doesn't trust the other spouse
3) it gives the lying spouse power in the relationship because he is the only one that knows the truth.

To have a really vibrant relationship I think two people have to be willing to share the truth with each other--even the ugly stuff.

Gillian, BS
husband is WS
PA 11/1/03-12/18/03
d-day 1 12/18/03
d-day 2 7/7/04 found out all details of first PA and EA 1996-?
married 11 years.

nothing kills a recovery like deceit

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In your moral absolutism, what does one do if their spouse is potentially violent? Does one confess and hope for the best? Maybe they won&#8217;t kill me?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If morals are not absolute, then what is wrong with violence? What is wrong with murdering someone? Or are you saying that only SOME morals are "absolute" and others are not? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The fact remains that and absolute demand that an affair be admitted has a better marital outcome then not-admitting has not been proved. I could care less if it is the &#8220;right thing to do&#8221;.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">CN, and maybe that is your own "moral standard." but it is not that of others. Your moral standard is to NOT CARE if something is the right thing to do. What has been proved is that lies and deceit are disasterous to a marriage. You can't seriously argue against that point logically.

So where do we draw the line with disclosure? Is it enough that we admit to an affair? Or perhaps we should disclose every grueling detail.

What if the BS says 'STOP'? Do we say, "Honey, I'm going to continue because Dr. Harley says it's good for us."

What kinds of details are too much? Does the spouse need to know that the OP was far more skilled in bed? That they had a better body? That you really thought the OP was more compatible with you as a friend? That you thought the OP was smarter?

When does disclosure become outright cruelty?

Be careful what you ask for. You just might get it.

Low

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In your moral absolutism, what does one do if their spouse is potentially violent? Does one confess and hope for the best? Maybe they won&#8217;t kill me?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If morals are not absolute, then what is wrong with violence? What is wrong with murdering someone? Or are you saying that only SOME morals are "absolute" and others are not? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The fact remains that and absolute demand that an affair be admitted has a better marital outcome then not-admitting has not been proved. I could care less if it is the &#8220;right thing to do&#8221;.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">CN, and maybe that is your own "moral standard." but it is not that of others. Your moral standard is to NOT CARE if something is the right thing to do. What has been proved is that lies and deceit are disasterous to a marriage. You can't seriously argue against that point logically. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Can one kill during war? For self-defense? These moral codes ARE NOT ABSOLUTE. It is illogical to blindly hang to some belief when presented with evidence that is contrary to that stance. All killing isn’t necessarily a sin.

Your not supposed to lie, what if lying saves someone’s life?

You refuse to answer the difficult questions . . . why is that? I’ll ask you again: if a spouse is potentially violent, where you think your life might be in danger, should you still reveal an affair? What if the BS has a history of mental illness and attempted suicides? I’m sure you will ignore these situations, yet again, because they muddy your absolute moral stances. But I'm sure you will respond with some clever repartee. I’ve noticed you like to have the last word. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ August 26, 2004, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: Comfortably Numb ]</small>

It may be true that a small percentage of cheaters think this way "I'm protecting my spouse by lieing about the affair", but for my case and several others I've read here over the years, they, (WS) are in "selfish-mode", and are looking out only for number 1. An affair by definition is an incredibly "selfish" act.

As was my then-H during his affairs. At one point I found written on his note pad, along with a to do list for moving <unbeknownst to me>, "Hell to pay when she finds out".

Just who do you think he was worried about "paying hell" for discovery. Certainly not me, who was currently in cancer treatment. He was worried about himself and any hurt or inconvenience HE may incur from my discovery.

I just think this one Harley article does not represent the majority of WS's feelings or true motives when active <operative word> in an affair. I truly believe the WS's are only looking out for themselves during it, and it's the rare exception the one's that are genuinely worried about the BS feelings or well being.

JMVHO,
Jo

<small>[ August 26, 2004, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LowOrbit:
<strong> So where do we draw the line with disclosure? Is it enough that we admit to an affair? Or perhaps we should disclose every grueling detail.

What if the BS says 'STOP'? Do we say, "Honey, I'm going to continue because Dr. Harley says it's good for us."

What kinds of details are too much? Does the spouse need to know that the OP was far more skilled in bed? That they had a better body? That you really thought the OP was more compatible with you as a friend? That you thought the OP was smarter?

When does disclosure become outright cruelty?

Be careful what you ask for. You just might get it.

Low </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Low,
I agree if can't handle the truth, you'd better not ask for it. I can only speak for myself, if I ask the truth I want the truth. It may hurt, it may be difficult to swallow and I may choose not to swallow it, but leave my decisions up to me. I am no child, I am not made of glass and if my wife reveals something to me that is hard to hear I'll ever get over it or I won't. I'm not suggesting someone should be callous enough to rattle off a barage of truths and in your scenario those are perceptions NOT truths. If OM is smarter than me? What is the scale for that judgement? An IQ test? Was he able to spot a pick pocket? Did he have more knowledge of current events? To me, a truth would be cut and dry like,
"Where were you last night?"
"Have you contacted OM today?"
"Did you let OM ride in my Damned Expedition?" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

See my point? There is a difference between that and was OM better in bed? ONe is definitive and the other highly subjective and open to interpertation and feelings.

<small>[ August 26, 2004, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: FamilyMatters ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I just think this one Harley article does not represent the majority of WS's feelings or true motives when active <operative word> in an affair. I truly believe the WS's are only looking out for themselves during it, and it's the rare exception the one's that are genuinely worried about the BS feelings or well being. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you are basing this on the feelings that most BS's express on this forum. This does not necessarily mean that it is so. I think almost all WS's who have posted here have been extremely concerned about hurting their spouses.

I know that I was. I felt no guilt for my affair while it was in progress. I had no fear of what my wife could do to me. However, I knew that I still loved her and I knew that I wanted to be discreet to avoid hurting her. As I've said before, if I hadn't been caught, I would've continued the affair indefinitely because I had rationalized that it wasn't wrong as long as it wasn't hurting my wife. As long as my wife didn't know, it wasn't hurting her. So I kept it secret.

Of course, I've spent the last couple of years in an MB re-education camp and am now fully versed in the error of my ways.

So from MY perspective (which is as valid to me as your is to you), I would tend to think that MOST WS's are concerned about hurting their spouse. Just stopping the affair won't work - the horse is out of the barn. Hiding the affair seems to be the only viable choice.

Low

LO..I have been thinking about the lines of disclosure and this is what I ahve come up with..tell me what you think.

It is all about the attitude of the WS and almost not at all about where the lines actually fall. You are correct..not everyone wants to know everything.

If the attitude of the WS or FWS is one of remorse and honesty and the only thing that would hold them back from disclosing is that htye do not wish to further hurt their spouse...then I suggest this would solve the problem without deceit and without arrogantly presuming what the BS can and can not handle as though they were a child...

Tell them that you are willing to answer honestly any question that they ask you, however tell them that some of these answers are likely to hurt them and that you will not disclose them unless asked. Then carry this out. It is both respectfull to the BS and puts the accountability for dealing with what is disclosed at their feet. You are willing to tell them..but they will have to live with knowing. Both parties need to understand that once done..this can't be undone..so tread lightly. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

However..most WS do not fail to disclose because they want to spare their spouses..they want to spare themselves. They keep secrets specifically so that they will not have to pay the consequences and refuse to be truthfull even when confronted with solid evidence of their activities and their deceit.

I think that these two differring attitudes will stand in stark contrast with each other. I think that most BSs would appreciate the former and be enraged and frustrated by the latter.

Comfortably Numb..

Here's my .02 about failing to disclose the affair in order to "save" the marriage.

Scenario:
You are an adult..and have taken action. Your action may result in your partner deciding that they no longer wish to have this relationship with you. So, in order to preserve the relationship, you do not tell them. The relationship continues and everyone is happy..correct?

Well, unfortunately no..because people usually are eventually caught..and then not in one lie but many..but even if a person were to be successful in this....

...it is incredibly cruel to do so. Your spouse is also an adult..and by deceiving them, you are denying them the opportunity to make their own choices and base their decisions on factual information. They are essentially held hostage in the relationship because you have fixed things to your liking without taking them into consideration as a person who is as free as you are. This is your peer, not your pet. They do not need to be pacified. To assume that you know best for them is arrogant in the extreme..and also not likely something that you would tolerate should the tables be turned.

--Noodle

My .02?

Some WS do not want to divulge the intimate details because it will tarnish and cheapen the A and the memory will not be the fantasy place to which they can retreat.

k

Noodle said:
“Scenario:
You are an adult..and have taken action. Your action may result in your partner deciding that they no longer wish to have this relationship with you. So, in order to preserve the relationship, you do not tell them. The relationship continues and everyone is happy..correct?

Well, unfortunately no..because people usually are eventually caught..and then not in one lie but many..but even if a person were to be successful in this....

...it is incredibly cruel to do so. Your spouse is also an adult..and by deceiving them, you are denying them the opportunity to make their own choices and base their decisions on factual information. They are essentially held hostage in the relationship because you have fixed things to your liking without taking them into consideration as a person who is as free as you are. This is your peer, not your pet. They do not need to be pacified. To assume that you know best for them is arrogant in the extreme..and also not likely something that you would tolerate should the tables be turned.”

I don’t advocate lying. I’ve been having a discussion about the necessity of disclosure in ALL cases.

Now on to the situation you posed. People do not disclose past affairs for many reasons, to assume that they are all motivated by fear of consequences to them is false. I think it is pretty arrogant to believe that all WS have this motivation. Many competent counselors with proven recovery statistics generally advocate disclosure in most cases, but not in all. That is my point.

I understand what you are saying, but I don’t think the situation you described is valid for many WS. Some don’t tell because they don’t want their children to be from a divorced, some because they fear a bullet in the head, some because they fear a bullet in the BS’s head, and on and on.

Life is messy, one-size-fits-all solutions like this mandatory confession are often inappropriate.

THIS IS JUST MY OPINION!!! and it happens to be the opinion held by the majority of folk in the marriage recover field. Harley states often that he is in a very small minority of practitioners that hold his view.

Originally posted by Comfortably Numb:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The fact remains that and absolute demand that an affair be admitted has a better marital outcome then not-admitting has not been proved. I could care less if it is the &#8220;right thing to do&#8221;.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">CN, yes, it has been proven logically. You have not been able to refute Harley's excellent defense of the truth in his article. So it stands, as is. You simply can't produce a rational argument that would support that it is good for a marriage to be based on lies and deceit. One doesn't need a "study" to support a logically justified argument. Do you need a "study" to prove that murder is bad? Of course you don't that is silly. [well, maybe you do since you don't believe in moral absolutes]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Can one kill during war? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But one can kill anywhere, anytime according to your logic. You say there are no absolutes, so it is never wrong to murder - or kill. Nor did your attempt to mix word meanings achieve a logical argument against moral absolutes. Killing is not necessarily the same as murder. Murder is absolutely wrong, self defense is not. Rational people recognize the difference..

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I&#8217;ll ask you again: if a spouse is potentially violent, where you think your life might be in danger, should you still reveal an affair? What if the BS has a history of mental illness and attempted suicides? I&#8217;m sure you will ignore these situations, yet again, because they muddy your absolute moral stances.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But you can't ask this question without demolishing your argument, CN. Don't you see that you have just destroyed your own argument with this question?

I will ask again, if there are no moral absolutes, how can you say that violence is bad? How can you say that suicide is bad?

Complete cyclic logic Melody . . .

Please try again.

Ok Cn...

I'll give you that one. It is arrogant to assume that I know what motivates all WSs everywhere.

Now I have a question for you.

Was it the affair..or the disclosure of the affair that caused the damage?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Comfortably Numb:
<strong> Complete cyclic logic Melody . . .

Please try again. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">CN, I am using your logic, though. You can't very well claim there are no moral absolutes and then turn around and claim that violence and suicide are bad. Surely you can see the glaring problem with your argument? Can you really not see that you have gone off the cliff?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Comfortably Numb:
<strong>

THIS IS JUST MY OPINION!!! and it happens to be the opinion held by the majority of folk in the marriage recover field. Harley states often that he is in a very small minority of practitioners that hold his view. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But this does not make it a valid or correct opinion. Majority opinion is irrelevent to the validity of a viewpoint. The majority of pre-WWII Germans thought that Jews were "subhuman." Did that make it true? The value of a viewpoint is based on it's OWN MERITS, not on how many people believe it.

CN,

I love it when someone puts words in a persons mouth who cannot respond and proceeds to agrue against the words that have been placed there by arguer.

Harley, does NOT say that thought should be suspended. He recommends honesty in most if not all normal marriage situations. His success rate is impressive, but one thing is clear. The statement that he is one of the few is no longer correct. You must recall when that book was written.

It is now recognized in encouraged by many counselors of national level, including none other than Dr. Phil. It is also recommend by Peggy (darn phone range and now cannot recall her name), as well as many other published "experts" on this matter.

One thing you missed in your use of telling a spouse that is prone to abuse or is abusive. Harley recommends leaving that marriage,not trying to rebuild it. And one has to question the person that is so afraid of a spouse that they cannot be honest, but does have an affair.

The honesty approach is catching along with the concept that divorces do hurt children. It is catching on because it seems to offer the best chance to rebuild the marriage and address the issues within the marriage.

There are still many counselors trained up until this last decade that adhere to what is at best "measured" honesty. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> But the reality most of them are left over from the "if it feels good do it" approach to life and counseling. AND IT FEELS GOOD TO LIE AND NOT HAVE TO FACE YOUR SPOUSE.

So while you paint Harley as "radical honesty" for ALL situations that is NOT the case. You are arguing against your own strawman, not Harley.

You probably don't realize that he has been a marriage counselor for decades but he was also a very successful counselor for those addicted to drugs and alcohol. Hence his stance that he will NOT do marriage counseling if one of the partners is still addicted to some substance or thing. It won't work until the addiction is addressed.

Is he perfect, I am certain that is not the case. But if one is talking about "rebuilding" a marriage rather than just keeping one on life support, then addressing the issues that lead to an affair are crucial, but that can only happen with honesty about the affair and the reasons for it. Otherwise, at least one of the people is simply cruising along in ignorance.

From my perspective, ignorance is NOT the state of mind that leads to advancement. One should at least be aware of the problem and issues.

One, last thing. You may not have noticed but this is NOT a religious based site. I know many posters come here and discuss their religion and how it helped them, but that is their choice. When people are hurt the often fall back to their core beliefs and those are often religious in nature.

It is sort of like the bumper sticker which says </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As long as there are tests, there will be prayer in school </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

So if you don't like the approach to rebuilding a marriage, fine say so and be done with it. If you have doubts fine, doubt. But, frankly you are going to have to admit to yourself, that the people that post here are self-selected because they understand the approach AND they find it works in addressing this very painful subject. They are their own data.

Finally, while the focus seems to be on affairs, the reality is that the approach Harley is talking about is designed for rebuilding marriages where affairs have not entered the picture and won't. The marriage is just failing and at least one spouse is wondering why. So frankly, the affair part is a subset of a larger picture.

I solve problems for a living, and I have for many decades, and I have yet to solve a problem that I did not at least quantify and identify.

Perhaps you have.

JL