</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LINY:
<strong> I had no clue of what that meant until I came to MB--and certainly didn't think of the repercussions.) However, the physical act of having sex with another is black and white; the act of cranial intercourse is not so obvious.

I'm sorry for your pain. And certainly sorry for the pain I caused. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree regarding the Emotional Affair portion. I'm being 100% honest when I say that I really didn't understand what an emotional affair was until joining this forum. My A started as an EA for quite sometime. I was always the type of person who shared my hopes dreams etc... I come from a very small family and my friends were always my only real confidants. I also think someone not very savvy in relationships can get caught up in an EA without any mal-intent whatsoever. You find someone easy to talk to and if you're not careful you are sharing things about your W or H that you should not. The line between "Just a Friend" and an EA Partner is very easy to cross. I'm not saying it's acceptable and I know that any relationship that takes time out of my M or lessens my feelings for my W is detrimental. Some people do prey on others and when you discuss your unhappiness with your S you began divulging all of the information needed to ensnarl you or furher attract you. I was a big time idiot. NOW, I do not have friends of the opposite sex, and I'm very careful about even having single male friends, because really "what do we have in common"? Let me say before the 2X4's start coming out:
I am not making excuses. I accept full responsibility for my A. I was NOT a victim of OW, I was however a victim of my own stupidity, immaturity and lI dealt very poorly with the conditions in my M and the lack of my met EN's. I will never be so selfish or destructive to my partner again and I will not put myself in a compromising position. My W and I were both crash test dummies. Neither one of us had ever been in a relationship before meeting and we didn't have many of the necessary skills or resources to keep our M healthy and renewing. Hindsight is 20/20 as far as an EA, as far as the PA part, there is absolutely NO EXCUSE, I wont even go there.

Octobergirl,

I feel sorry for your pain too and although there are differences in some of our personal opinions, I have respect, appreciation and understanding for you point of view as a BS. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> However, I have to agree with LINY that I don’t think many people will be able to give you a clear definition of "emotional affair" before they haven’t experienced it from first hand experience in their own life’s or marriages… As you can see from other FWS’s who are also posting here, most of them learned about EA’s and the repercussions & consequences on the ‘hard & painful way’ after they became involved in an EA and discovered this website (or after they have read books about emotional infidelity) to learn what constitutes and EA. As LINY have said, the physical act of having sex with another is black and white, but the act of cranial intercourse (and especially the distinction between friendships and EA’s) is not so obvious. If things were just black and white and if I knew beforehand about EA’s and the dangers of opposite sex friendships and the possible repercussions & consequences for all parties involved, I would certainly NOT became involved in such a mess myself.

You talked about sexual abuse,porn, child slavery and prostitution,etc... I feel just as strong & angry as you about these things. I was sexually abused as a very young child (molestation & incest) by 2 family members who were supposed to care about me and have my best interest at heart... So, I understand exactly what you're saying.

Blessings,
Suzet

<small>[ September 03, 2004, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

LINY,

I did not contradict myself.Not sure what you meant.I was pointing out that if I took a random sample of 1000 adult people(random number too)that most if not all could give me an adequate definition of what it means to be unfaithful AND this would include any manner of spending inappropriate time with another person of the opposite sex(which can lead to EA,PA) as evidenced by several posters here who have had trouble with their spouses spending time with other women/men at bars and so on despite the previous A's and despite their discussions about the matter.It comes back to me believing that adults know exactly what they are doing at any given time,choices.Unless they are mentally disabled or have brain damage(in the truest medical defintion thereof)I do not accept that one is unaware of their decision making processes.

I don't think that people think of the porn industry and movies etc with adultery in it as the "norm" but rather it is related to entitlement and a misguided reaction to marital and/or personal problems and it's prevelance becoming increased in todays society.So,just because it is that prevelant does not make it the norm nor should it be construed as to be appropriate(i.e. heart disease,sexual abuse,HIV,divorce,poverty,etc).

Chris,

As stated above,I do not believe that people are unaware of their actions unless truly mentally disabled through a birth defect,injury or malpractice,etc which renders them incapable of adequately and appropriately considering their actions and their effects.I would like to think that most of our generation at this time is more intelligent than to succumb to inappropriate and harmful temptations.

We could debate all day along about the measure of a WS's consideration with regards to their spouses feelings before an A is discovered but the question is not were they thinking but were they selfless,caring and respectful,etc of their spouses.Obviously they were not which is why we are all here seeking information and support.

FM,

All of us here at MB are adults with,at the very least,some awareness of what it means to be monogamous,respectful,loving,caring and faithful because we have walked down that aisle and took vows with our spouses,pledged our love,read from the bible,listened to sermons, you get the idea.Now,unless you are completely deaf and are from some extreme remote part of the world where cultures and customs do not reflect todays society in America or you completely ignored the entire ceremony which in fact,DID NOT include anyone else at the alter so there is another point that a marriage is designed for TWO only and no one else,being unfaithful does not have some inexplicable and indecipherable defintion and this includes any manner of time spent with the opposite sex that can lead to an A.

That is what we are really talking about because there are plenty of us,I am sure,that have had appropriate talks and laughs with those of the other sex but it is only when there is a lot more than a small measure of this time and energy spent with another person when the ugly monster(A)can be born.To use my WH as an example again,he made the decision to see the homewrecker many times over the course of,what I estimate(since I don't really know nor ever will know just how long)2 months going out for drinks,talking about details of his life,spending time with the homewrecker's family <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> while they told him that he was expected through the local family wacko "psychic",sending e-mails and cell phoning and text messaging and rendezvousing,etc,etc,etc.Feeding the monster that had been born.So,he knew all along what he was doing,his choices,but invariably he could not pull himself out after spending all this time and energy with the HW and became addicted,infatuated,fog bound or whatever.I too believe that there is no excuse to make the decision to have an A,that we all agree with but I will go a step further and say that there is no excuse for leading up to one either.

Suzet,suzet,suzet,

You want to have the last word don't you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I'll just address the first paragraph since I am sure that we all would agree on the second part.It's a sad commentary on our society today.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this topic because although you are a FWS and I am a BS,I will never be in your shoes and you may never,hopefully,be in mine enough to see each other's view 100%.And maybe we should not.I would not want everyone in this country to be clones and think exactly the same way but on this topic,and other's,I just do not believe people are unaware of what they are doing.

We are adults in this new millenium with hundreds of years behind us, even thousands,dealing with infidelity,unfaithfulness,adultery and with so much information out there about everything that there is just no more time left to be making what I call excuses about behavior anymore.I was emotionally abused as a child,I went through both my parents alcoholism,my father's suicide attempt,divorce,job loss(WH),now adultery and I could have made all kinds of excuses for my bad behavior or thought I was entitled to do whatever I wanted for my own happiness.No.I just don't buy it and it's shameful that we let this continue,on every level.Why do we have poverty in this country,the richest on the planet? Because we continue to allow it.Why do we have such an abominable D rate STILL? Because we allow it.Why do we continue to deplete the ozone and watch as our glaciers and ice caps melt due to global warming? Because we let it.You get the idea right? As I have mentioned before,until people own up to their CHOICES and start making right ones instead of selfish ones that reflect greed we will continue on this crash course and the future does not look so bright for my children or my grandchildren.

We owe it to our children and their children to stop acting selfishly and give our children happy loving homes/families to grow and thrive in and how you do that is by first making a committment to your spouse through marriage and STICKING TO IT.Do what you have to to make the marriage WORK and be fulfilling instead of looking for the answer elswhere.


Here's a quote that I like:

"What if they gave a war and nobody came?"

Well,I like to think this now:

"What if someone wanted to cheat but no one else agreed?"

O

<small>[ September 04, 2004, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Octobergirl:
[QB] LINY,

I did not contradict myself.Not sure what you meant.I was pointing out that if I took a random sample of 1000 adult people(random number too)that most if not all could give me an adequate definition of what it means to be unfaithful AND this would include any manner of spending inappropriate time with another person of the opposite sex(which can lead to EA,PA) as evidenced by several posters here who have had trouble with their spouses spending time with other women/men at bars and so on despite the previous A's and despite their discussions about the matter.It comes back to me believing that adults know exactly what they are doing at any given time,choices.
I don't think that people think of the porn industry and movies etc with adultery in it as the "norm" but rather it is related to entitlement and a misguided reaction to marital and/or personal problems and it's prevelance becoming increased in todays society.So,just because it is that prevelant does not make it the norm nor should it be construed as to be appropriate</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OG...Let me use a different word..."accepted." If infidelity, porn, abuse, etc is accepted as much as (I think) we all agree on, then, no, you would not get the results in your thesis. (Been reading too much of ol2's posts lately! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> )

In regards to asking what an "emotional affair" is, I still truly believe that only a handful of those people what know what the heck you were talking about. (I think what we are discussing and disagreeing on would make an absolutely great poll. I think "both sides" would gain much insight to it all and maybe we could learn a thing or two.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't agree with the fact that some beleive that they do not know when they have fallen into an EA or that it is too late.It is my opinion that they know EXACTLY what they are doing.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do *NOT* mean this next comment with disrespect, but, I guess that goes to show you how much of a better person you are from me (or any WS, for that matter.)

FM said...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was however a victim of my own stupidity, immaturity and lI dealt very poorly with the conditions in my M and the lack of my met EN's.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He also said on another thread, something to the affect of that it was his own weaknesses that nurtured the A.

Without trying to dig up my original post, let me tell you something about my sit and the background which enabled my weaknesses.

Brown had a mental breakdown. She was diagnosed as clinically depressed and passive agressive. Before the diagnosis, for many years before her personal D-day, I had no clue. Ignorant. I mean, I knew something was wrong, but how do you deal with something you don't even know is there? Anyway, for the years after the MB, I had to take care of everything. *Everything.* It brought a lot of resentment and my EN's were not being filled. I've always had freinds of the opposite sex, always been greagrious, always looked uppon as a "good guy" and overall good person. So, having this one person (the one whom I had the EA with) at work to discuss things with--at first, only work realted things, who was one of only two people I could completely confide in, the other being brown--wasn't even a thought. But, I didn't know how much *I* contributed to the downfall of our M. So, I was getting my EN/s met by my wife and they were being filled by the OW. Now, if you had asked me then what an EN was, I probably would have said, "Wasn't that a really cheesey sitcom on TV?" If you had asked me then what I was doing was wrong, I would have probably laughed--in my eyes, really, what was I doing wrong? Even--at first--when the conversations became "deeper" and involved our personal lives, I would have said, "So?" No, I did *NOT* realize that I was "filling someone else's LB" at that time. Like I openly expressed to brown (and my family, for the most part), my saying was "I give up!" for several months. *THAT* *was* conscious; the fact of *what* the repercussions were for having an EA was not.

20-20 is hindsight.

I hope this helps to see it from an FWS's POV regarding an EA a little better.

<small>[ September 05, 2004, 12:30 AM: Message edited by: LINY ]</small>

Thank you to all of you for responding. I really appreciate the efforts that you put into providing provide feedback from the opposing camps. While my general impression is that we all to some degree or another agreed that realistically there should be no excuse for an A. In Summary these were the most salient points for me. Please feel free to add.

* I did see that under certain conditions you can unwittingly open the door to an A.
* Another important point was that you reallly shouldn't talk to opposite sex friends about anything intimate or that you would not be comfortable talking about if you spouse was listeneing.
* If you are having marital problems, seek counselling.
* If it is abusive in any way, seek couselling or leave if you are threatened.
Do not strike up friendships with opposite sex friends, especially when have marital problems.

<small>[ September 06, 2004, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: RenaissanceMan ]</small>

Hi, I am new to this site, however I could not help responding to your post. I am going through a similar situation as brownhair described right now. My husband is emotionally abusive and also has a drug and alcohol addiction. Currently, he is incarcerated for drunk driving. I have been tempted a couple of times in my marriage to have an affair, as I am obviously not getting what I need in the marriage. Also, he is VERY verbally abusive, I feel like no matter what I do it is not good enough, he wants more. Well, I have finally come to the realization that I cannot have an affair because whether I stay or not in the marriage I need to focus on that. I know that in the long run that I am only hurting our children and myself if I have an affair. Yes, emotional abuse can cause a spouse to feel unloved and want something more for themselves, however I still do not think it justifies anything. I recently told my husband I will not put up with drinking or drugging ever again and when he gets out of jail we need to go to marriage counseling or I will not remain in the marriage. Even if your marriage is not so hot, it only makes things worse to have an affair.

Hi Tanya, I am sorry to hear of your situation. whilst your situation is different to mine I agree that no matter what you should not get involved in an Affair (A). If your husband is abusive, get yourselves into counselling, if he is threatening you or your kids then you need to seriously consider leaving or taking some protective measures.
I can tell you from personal experience that an A will drive an even bigger wedge between you. It will not allow you to resolve your existing problems, rather it will push them into the background. I know my wife regrets her "A" I can see it tearing her apart (not too mention me). Unfortunately at the moment she is still so caught up in it that she hasn't managed to break free of the FOG that she is in.
I pray that you don't make the same mistakes as my Wayward Wife (WW). You have the benefit of having found this site before making a mistake. You also sound like you are of stronger character than my WW.

Remember what was said earlier in the earlier postings. An "A" is itself a form of abuse. If you are not happy about being abused, do not inadvertantly become an abuser yourself. Two Wrongs do not make a right. Regards RM

<small>[ September 06, 2004, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: RenaissanceMan ]</small>

RM:

I think it is admirable that you have seen where your actions caused hurt to your WW, and you sincerely seek to change.

It is sad that she is still in the fog. Perhaps one day she will come out of it, and see what she has done to you. But, perhaps she never will. You can't take ownership of that. All you can do is take ownership of your actions, and their consequences.

Even if you and your WW never reconcile, you should still strive to achieve the changes you seek. Those changes are growth, and by seeking growth you are reconciling yourself to the aftermath of being betrayed. You still owe your W amends for the pain your past behavior gave her that is independent of the amends she owes you for her A. By continuing to grow, you are on the path to offering her that restitution, and remorse.

I, too, took it to heart when I discovered my WW's A. I too saw how my behavior had contributed to the sad state of our M, and how I had hurt her. At first, I also felt as though my behavior "drove" her to the A, but then one day I saw how disrespectful that actually is. Such thinking robs the other person of their own human-ness. My WW is an intelligent, fully functioning human being, who is capable of making her own decisions. I contributed greatly to the state of our M, without a doubt, but she chose to have the A. Once I truly saw that, I was able to give her the dignity and respect of taking ownership of her actions, and their consequences. Once I did that, she was able to commence recovery.

Sorry - double post

<small>[ September 07, 2004, 04:16 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by RenaissanceMan:
<strong> In Summary these were the most salient points for me. Please feel free to add.

* I did see that under certain conditions you can unwittingly open the door to an A.
* Another important point was that you reallly shouldn't talk to opposite sex friends about anything intimate or that you would not be comfortable talking about if you spouse was listeneing.
* If you are having marital problems, seek counselling.
* If it is abusive in any way, seek couselling or leave if you are threatened.
* Do not strike up friendships with opposite sex friends, especially when have marital problems. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can add the following ones (these are the personal lessons I have learned from my EA):

* Close opposite sex friendship is VERY DAMAGING and a potential thread for any marriage. Friendships like this (especially were there is a close emotional attachment en dependence) are the ‘silent enemy’ and ‘silent killer’ because on the eye it ‘seems’ so innocent.

* A’s happen all the time, even in very happy marriages. A marriage can stray en be vulnerable to an affair also because of adverse reasons and circumstances other than problems/issues within the M. All people have some personal problems/issues and baggage they bring into the M. Everyone must be aware of their own weaknesses & vulnerabilities.

* A’s can happen to ANYONE – even good, religious people with high morals and strong conscience can get involved in an A... In fact, sometimes the so-called ‘good’ people are more vulnerable to an affair than anyone else because they think they will never get tempted and are not aware of their own human weaknesses.

* I believe it is possible to truly love your S and at the same time have feelings for someone else. The theory of the love bank also explains this phenomenon very clearly. As I have said earlier, A’s can also happen because of adverse reasons and circumstances other than problems/issues within the M.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Octobergirl:
<strong>

FM,

All of us here at MB are adults with,at the very least,some awareness of what it means to be monogamous,respectful,loving,caring and faithful because we have walked down that aisle and took vows with our spouses,pledged our love,read from the bible,listened to sermons, you get the idea.Now,unless you are completely deaf and are from some extreme remote part of the world where cultures and customs do not reflect todays society in America or you completely ignored the entire ceremony which in fact,DID NOT include anyone else at the alter so there is another point that a marriage is designed for TWO only and no one else,being unfaithful does not have some inexplicable and indecipherable defintion and this includes any manner of time spent with the opposite sex that can lead to an A.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">HUH?
OctoberGirl you are entitled to your opinion by all means. Whew! I have been a WS and a BS and from my experience/opinon your highly detailed description is very one-sided. Are you hoping to reconcile your M? I'm not going to attack you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I'll just end my contribution to this thread saying, there is no excuse for an A, but people do make mistakes, It's what we learn from our mistakes and what we do afterwards (actions) which defines us. Happy mates don't usually have A's and other people besides idiots and serial cheaters have had A's. I'm not condoning immoral activity or anything of the sort.

Take care and good luck.

FM,

Yes my responses are very detailed and one sided since I have not had the displeasure of being a WS.I am long past trying to reconcile my M.I have done all my MB research,plans,read all the books,counseling,you name it.That may be why I can come across as not so supportive of WS's because my WH decided to keep moving in the direction of pain,suffering,selfishness and destruction.

I agree that we all make mistakes but I for one am tired of hearing about this one(A).It's like never overcoming drug abuse because we all keep saying we didn't know,we didn't plan,we didn't this that or whatever.Now if we are dealing with kids who honestly do not have as much information and experience to be able to say that drugs can kill,that's a different story.But,we are adults with a wealth of info at our fingertips about every imaginable subject.

I just do not believe that adults of today have no idea that spending a lot of time with a person of the opposite sex can lead to intimacy and/or inappropriate relationships.To me,it's like saying that we don't know that wearing a seatbelt can save our lives in a car crash.We do know this information but instead,some choose to ignore it and suffer the consequences because it feels better/good(not to wear it) at the time.

Anyway,I don't want to sound like a broken record here so I will consider this the end for me.You have your opinion,I have mine.I wish you all the best with your life. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

O