PERSONALLY, I felt it was absolutely vital to be as forthcoming as possible with my children. I want to say this as politically correct as possible, but being who I am..(Family Matters) I felt my kids DEFINITLEY needed to know and understand that DAD did not kick mom out, DAD did not make mom leave, DAD did not break up this family, DAD did not and will not be the one who destroys this family. I am vehement about this because I've always felt it would play an important role in their developement of their self-perceptions and the standards they will set for themselves thus forming the convictions that will shape their early adult lives and beyond.

My S never asked me directly WHY mom left, he just knew that she did leave and that it has hurt him, his sister and I very much. My D knows the reasons mom and dad have not been getting along, she is too mature to be buffered from the reality of the Why's. If my W wanted to protect her D's image of her mother she would have ended this A a long time ago. For GOD's sake, I found out my W was sleeping with OM from my D back like a month after our initial separation. Fog or no Fog my W will have to own up and repair the damage she has caused. How? I have no idea. I wish my W would ask me an idiotic question like why did you tell them. They already knew. We all knew, I was just so in love with you that I didn't want to accept the horrible truth.

I thank you good people for this thread, though it has differing opinions I think that's a good thing. I haven't been many places on the Internet where this type of seriously vital subject matter is discussed. Actually, after giving this thread residence in my brain for a good portion of the day, I have decided as a family regardless to the outcome we will pursue some form of counseling together. Thank you once again for causing me to step outside of my own pain regarding my W's A, and waking up and realizing the depths of its effects on the only truly innocent people in this whole equation, my children.

If the fog were to lift tomorrow, I would still be apprehensive about allowing her to re-enter their lives in our home. How dare she do this to our children just to be with OM and OMP's. She will have to answer to GOD on this, and I don't think he/she is FOGGED in the least, nor does she/he rationalize away guilt.

Thank you! I appeciate 'child's pov', might learn more.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">(My father had a long term affair that ended with his death. Many lies) So my pov is from the child’s.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry!
Did your mom know but hid from you?

OK, you learnt at the end and it came as a big one, but still, is it bigger than if you knew about it and lived with it all this long time?
(You no way can be sure about this!.. for you had no chance for that experience... please keep that in mind...)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Does Dad still love you? I don’t know. (which is IMO the truth). You’ll have to ask him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't you think the kid is hurt enough already to add more giving your own opinion ("I don't know"), especially for the answer just dad can give anyway?
(Not to mention how 'foggy' that opinion could be when coming from a hurt BS...)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All I can offer is that you’ll never go wrong by telling the truth. Most kids can handle it. They’re already dealing with heavy duty stuff. They don’t need to have their faith in their one sane parent underminded by any form of questioning or second guessing.

They’re dealing with SO much. So many lies. They need a touchstone. Someone in their life that they can trust beyond a shadow of a doubt to tell them the truth. Anything less and they’re gettng lies from BOTH of the primary adults in their lives. What good does that do? None.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I totally agree!

But:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The only thing it teaches them is that lying in “certain” instances is ok. But which instances? I don’t know…do you? And it teaches them that people can say “I love you” and lie to you in the next breath.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, for you don't lie!
And you have to know that you can say truth in many different ways...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m submitting that your pov is the one that most parents have been operating under for years and years. And all it does is create adults who equate lying with “the right thing to do under certain situations”….translation “ I can lie about this if I think it’s the right thing to do.” Sounds like fog babble to me….</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wrong. You just didn't understand me. You can say 'raw truth' and 'smooth truth', 'an age appropriate version', that's where I make difference (no lies included AT ALL!)

I had (&still have) NO lying parents, thus I'm (too) sincere in 3D myself, and would never be that lying kind to my son. Ever. (Not capable of that anyway).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Looking around I can’t agree that these are the lesssons we should be teaching children. And remember – EVERY discussion / exchange with a child is a lesson taught and learned.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's why I'm involved in this discussion, to learn if possible.
My son is just three, but he'll be 8 and more and more (with God willing!).

Radical Honesty?
I agree!
I just prefer cutting a very young apple with not so sharp knife... and you still have it cut...

<small>[ August 28, 2004, 01:12 AM: Message edited by: Belonging to Nowhere ]</small>

I think this is the best solution (for all of us):

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cherise:
<strong> You are the only one here who really KNOWS your child and what he needs and can handle and digest! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FamilyMatters:
PERSONALLY, I felt it was absolutely vital to be as forthcoming as possible with my children. I want to say this as politically correct as possible, but being who I am..(Family Matters) I felt my kids DEFINITLEY needed to know and understand that DAD did not kick mom out, DAD did not make mom leave, DAD did not break up this family, DAD did not and will not be the one who destroys this family. <strong> I am vehement about this because I've always felt it would play an important role in their developement of their self-perceptions and the standards they will set for themselves thus forming the convictions that will shape their early adult lives and beyond.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, so right, at that age of your kids!

Tree,

I would recommend telling your son the truth in an age-appropriate way too. My kids were 10yo and 13yo when their dad had one of his major A's and move out-of-state for 6 months with NO CONTACT! Prior to that, dad used to travel a fair amount, so for a little while it was somewhat normal to them, but after some time went by they noticed. They came to me one night and said, "What happened to dad? Is he dead?"

My answer was only to answer their question, nothing more: "NO! Why do you wonder about that?"

"Well, he did not come back, so we figured he must be dead. Where is he?"

"He moved to (state) for a little ."

"How long?"

"I don't know for sure."

"Doesn't he want to come home and see us? Doesn't he love us anymore?"

"Oh, he DOES love you, very much. He is confused and taking some time to figure out what he wants."

(My son asked this next one): "Does he have a girlfriend?"

"Why do you ask?

"I just have a funny feeling."

"I'm not positive but I think so. That hurts me a lot, and I feel sad, but we'll see what happens. Meanwhile, I'm right here and our dog is right here and your school is right here and your friends are right here--you will be well taken care of and loved until Dad gets back, okay?"

THE END.

Kids are a lot more intuitive than we give them credit for. Furthermore, they worry...and if they are not told the truth in an age-appropriate way they do two things: 1) they learn not to be transparently honest (i.e., it's okay to hide things) and 2) they make up stuff that's worse and blame themselves for it.

Mostly kids want to know they are still loved...they will be taken care of...if their world is going to change and if they'll have help getting through that. My D is the type who worries how we'll eat without child support, so I go over our family budget with her so she can see that we have enough to feed ourselves and even a little left over for entertainment. My S is the type who worries if he'll be loved. He needs a constant, steady stream of love, attention, and interest in his life and he gets a lot of that from his friends and buddies at school--so changing schools would be a DISASTER to him. I go over long-term plans with him to STAY WHERE WE ARE and let his friends come any time they want.

So Tree, be honest with your S at his level. Reassure him that dad may be doing this or that, but YOU are there and YOU are rock solid. Give him what he needs to feel as secure as he can.


CJ

"Well

CJ, I liked very much this dialogue! (Would apply if my son were that age.)
And your conclusion! - which is the main point of any conversation with kids of ANY AGE - They ARE loved no matter what!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Belonging to Nowhere:
<strong> Did your mom know but hid from you?</strong> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My mom, sister and I were all pretty much on the same page as far as the A was concerned. We had a handfull of d-day’s over the years and what we now know was a false recovery until the end. So basically it wasn’t a surprise, but the actual truth (number of years, true relationship with OW and her son, etc) was what broadsided us in the end.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> <strong> OK, you learnt at the end and it came as a big one, but still, is it bigger than if you knew about it and lived with it all this long time?
(You no way can be sure about this!.. for you had no chance for that experience... please keep that in mind...) </strong> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But we did know about it for a long time. We just didn’t know ALL about it for all of that time. So what we found out was not new pain – just renewed and intensified.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Does Dad still love you? I don’t know. (which is IMO the truth). You’ll have to ask him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't you think the kid is hurt enough already to add more giving your own opinion ("I don't know"), especially for the answer just dad can give anyway?
(Not to mention how 'foggy' that opinion could be when coming from a hurt BS...) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How is “I don’t know” an opinion on that question? And what would be the alternative?

Child: Mom, does Dad still love you?

If Mom answers Yes, where does the child go with that? Ok so Dad loves Mom, but he hurts her and there is nothing loving in any of his actions with her. So a Yes answer to me is untrue because Mom doesn’t know how Dad feels for her. She knows he’s behaving like a @ss and that’s about it. And so does the child. So mom has told him hat Yes, dad loves her and then the child gets to process how that matches up with what he knows about love.

If she answers No – still that’s her opinion. She can’t answer for her WH or his feelings about her. Nor should she.

So that’s why I say go with the truth. “I don’t know. And you’ll have to talk to him.”

Only one of them is the truth and that is all the child is looking for. Yes he’s been hurt more than enough. That’s why lying to him even more doesn’t help. It only complicates matters for him. A lie does not protect anyone – even a child – from pain.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
No, for you don't lie!
And you have to know that you can say truth in many different ways...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely agree. There are many diff ways to tell the truth. But you have to be so extra special careful A simple word choice can easily turn a “version” of the truth into an outright lie. And your children are hanging onto every word. They’re replaying what you’ve told them that afternoon late that night in bed while you think they’re asleep. Analyzing every word, comparing it with other things they’ve been told. They’re going to do it any – at least give them quality material to work with.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m submitting that your pov is the one that most parents have been operating under for years and years. And all it does is create adults who equate lying with “the right thing to do under certain situations”….translation “ I can lie about this if I think it’s the right thing to do.” Sounds like fog babble to me….</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wrong. You just didn't understand me. You can say 'raw truth' and 'smooth truth', 'an age appropriate version', that's where I make difference (no lies included AT ALL!) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I understood. But (going by your first post here ) saying, for instance, that dad had to go away is not a “smooth truth”. It’s a easy lie. And it’s the simple choice of that word over “chose” that makes all the difference in the world. If I know my dad chose this behavior I can go to him with the right questions. If I think he had to – well I don’t know where to go with that. Had to – why? Because OW held a gun to him? Because what he feels for her is more than his love for me? Because… but it has to be something tangible behind the “had to” because that’s what Mom told me.

However, I’ve also said more than a few times that in all discussions the telling has to be age appropriate.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Looking around I can’t agree that these are the lesssons we should be teaching children. And remember – EVERY discussion / exchange with a child is a lesson taught and learned.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's why I'm involved in this discussion, to learn if possible.
My son is just three, but he'll be 8 and more and more (with God willing!).

Radical Honesty?
I agree!
I just prefer cutting a very young apple with not so sharp knife... and you still have it cut... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely. But I was taught in cooking class that a dull knife is much more dangerous than a sharp one.

I keep hearing over and over from this board and other places that the fogbound WSs continually lie about the As because they tell themselves that they’re protecting the BSs. “I didn’t want to hurt you so I didn’t tell you I slept with her.” Or they tell some but not all of the story. Etc.

So if BS does the same to the kids…in my opinion they’re getting fogged from both sides.

If its painful when your WSs lies to you to “protect” you – believe me it is equally painful for you to do it to your kids for the same reason. In some ways moreso because now I realize that Mom AND Dad are both under the column of “Those that cannot be fully trusted”. Even if I realize that Mom did it to try to protect me, it still hurts and it still shakes my faith. Again.

<small>[ August 28, 2004, 08:28 AM: Message edited by: DadsD ]</small>

Wow...thanks for all the advice!!!
DS spent the night with his dad last night so I'm hoping that he had a talk with his dad. I plan on sitting down with him later and talking to him and letting him know that no matter what that I will always be here for him and love him very much. My son does know more than I thought. He will see in the end which parent has been there for him and taken care of him and made sure he was safe and secure. I know that one day my H will regret his choices. But that is his bed and he must lie in it!!!!!
I would never leave my son and my son knows that. He knows he can rely on MOM.
I love this MB board. If it weren't for me being able to come here I don't know what I would do! I thank all of you from the bottom of my heart for all the support and advice!!!!!

Again, sorry for your pain...

I could quote some sentences of yours and offer 'alternatives'; they can be better OR worse than yours DEPENDING ON particular situation... i.e. we cannot generalize...
(Only generalization in this case I with no doubt accept is to show my STABLE love and make my child feels secure, safe with me, forever...)
And no matter which answer we chose, we can NEVER be sure how child's mind will digest it...
That's why I think it is not just one conversation that can give answers, nor one or two answeres themselves... it's time consuming process of handling consequences of As, Ds, and family problems in general...

Re: "had to"... I still think that you chose to do what you have to do... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> , if you don't have to why should you... ), let's neglect that word please, because ANY word you chose might cause making damaging pictures in your kid's mind if your ACTIONS don't support your words, your way of living, of course with additional explanations, conversations about the same issues, WHEN 'proper' time comes...
When you say:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...to be so extra special careful A simple word choice can easily turn a “version” of the truth into an outright lie.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree. And that could happen using your words or mine or anyone else's... it depends on child and partially what I said above the quote...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Only one of them is the truth and that is all the child is looking for.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And truth is? What you consider being truth?
You think if there is love that is enough?? You couldn't leave if you loved?
I mean - dad can love mom and kids and yet could leave, to be free/with OW/whatever... He LOVES them but just NOT ENOUGH to stay... and that does not mean there is not love...
Nothing is white and black...
(E.g.: the father of my son loves his freedom more than HIMSELF... so, he loves his freedom, he loves himself, he loves our son, he loves me, he loves all of us in a way - in HIS way (don't we all love in our ways?)... he chose what he had to, otherwise he'd be chocked with family "trap" (his words)...
And you know what - he's 100000% <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> better father to our son than he ever was when lived together.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because… but it has to be something tangible behind the “had to” because that’s what Mom told me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course. and if sometimes his old <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> father doesn't understand why he had to choose what he chose, cannot expect that from a child!
No picking a proper single word, no just ONE answer will satisfy all kids' needs nor no one conversations will solve issues in their minds, as I mentioned above... i.e. whatever way you choose you might mistake, that's why we have to customize telling TRUTH according of uniqueness of our kids...


As I said, my son is (almost) three...
And so far he's pleased with answers (dad has his hom and we have ours, he loves you, I love you, and we both care about you, just different ways because we ARE different...)
And I don't know yet what exactly my answers would be later on when he's older and asking for more...
Any suggestion from 'child's view' please?

Well spoken, TR!
Just keep on, exchange POSITIVE energy with your son, and trust me it DOES get better!


(nobody should forget that if we choose to say a BLANT truth to our kid, it might turn them against the other parent besides their feelings of abandonments... and in the long run it comes back as a boomerang to us (we might be blamed for cutting connections with their fathers and for everything else, idealizing betraying parent)... growing up KIDS will come to their own explanations why that happened to their parents, that's why I wrote previously they'll SEE what is reality, one day they will understand, not the day we try to tell them...)

My son asked me on his own if daddy had a girlfriend. That was hard! I'm sure he hears things from school and friends about theri situations and maybe that's where all the questions are coming from. I try to answer them the best I can. My H told me once that I'm manipulating our son by turning him against him. I would and never have done that. He's just reaching for reasons for his A. He's trying to justify what he's done. I will not lie to my son. He's been lied to enough.
I hope that I can answer all of my son's questions the right way. I can only pray that God will lead me in the right direction.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Belonging to Nowhere:
<strong> I could quote some sentences of yours and offer 'alternatives'; they can be better OR worse than yours DEPENDING ON particular situation... i.e. we cannot generalize...</strong> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely. As with all things – the answer depends on the child, the situation, and the question. And shoot – sometimes you have to go with your gut and just wing it!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> <strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Only one of them is the truth and that is all the child is looking for.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And truth is? What you consider being truth? </strong> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I consider the truth to be what I know it to be at the time the question is posed, based on the information that has been made available to me. If I’m asked “Is the sky blue?” And I look up to see a blue sky, then my truthful answer would be “Yes”. There’s no consideration involved.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> <strong> You think if there is love that is enough?? You couldn't leave if you loved? I mean - dad can love mom and kids and yet could leave, to be free/with OW/whatever... He LOVES them but just NOT ENOUGH to stay... and that does not mean there is not love...
Nothing is white and black... </strong> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No I don’t think that love is enough to do anything. I love my father but not enough to put up with his A. (hmmm can't quite get with the past tense there...) I can love the heck out of you and not want to be in the same room with you. That’s a given. But when posed as a question from a kid – “Does Daddy still love you Mom?” Do you have the knowledge that will allow you to answer that question truthfully? Or is it really “I don’t know?” I believe its “I don’t know” simply because one person cannot possibly speak on the emotions and feelings of another. How could you possibly know how someone else truly feels about you especially when their every action and word is fogbound? Maybe a better answer (or alternative) would be “He loves me in the best way he can.” ??? But even that feels off to me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> <strong> No picking a proper single word, no just ONE answer will satisfy all kids' needs nor no one conversations will solve issues in their minds, as I mentioned above... i.e. whatever way you choose you might mistake, that's why we have to customize telling TRUTH according of uniqueness of our kids... </strong> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hear you. And I agree to a point. It’s the “customizing” for some reason that rubs me the wrong way. I know it has to be age appropriate – absolutely. But I’ve have more than enough “customized” lies to last me a lifetime.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> <strong> As I said, my son is (almost) three... </strong> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And that’s an important part of your perspective. A three year old’s questions and perceptions about why Dad is gone are going to be a lot different from a 7, 14, 18, 25 or 33 year old’s. Again with the age appropriateness! LOL!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> <strong> And so far he's pleased with answers (dad has his hom and we have ours, he loves you, I love you, and we both care about you, just different ways because we ARE different...) </strong> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Question – so your son believes that mom loves and cares for him in one way…and dad lovs and cares for him in another way?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> <strong> And I don't know yet what exactly my answers would be later on when he's older and asking for more...
Any suggestion from 'child's view' please? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You said it yourself best earlier on. It depends on the person your child is at the time he’s posing the question. If he asks for more – give it to him. If he doesn’t – don’t. Don’t insult his intelligence – chances are that if he’s figured out something enough to pose the question – he has an inkling of what’s going on and is only looking for adult confirmation. Trusted adult confirmation.

I like the idea of a site for kids going through this. I’ve wondered how that could be worked myself.

I had the same question that opened this thread from my DS when he was just four years old. While in the car one afternoon he asked me who mom’s boyfriend was. I laughed and said I don’t know. Maybe you should ask her. Later that night W attacked me pretty hard about bringing DS into our problems. I remember saying, “What problems?” Turns out her A was already two years along by that time, but I suspected nothing. I did not connect the dots she was distant, irritable and there had already been little SF for two years.

Eight years and two DDays later, our now twelve year old DS is suffering through a lot of anguish, fear and uncertainty. W and I are in recovery, well along, I feel (lots of ups and downs). But DS is still having problems - bad dreams, anger, acting out and other behaviors he did not exhibit previously. (Well, maybe me too, on occasion.)

I started taking him to a child psychologist early this year. It has helped. (Wish I could send the bills to OMM. Wait, maybe I will anyway.) W and I both go with him now. The main problem is the A went on for so long. DS still remembers the first DDay when he was 6 years old. He knows the A started when he was just a baby. It all makes him feel so very unloved.

His psychologist had him confront me with his anger a few weeks ago. I was wondering what he could be angry with me about. Turned out to be two things. First, anger in general. Lashing out at everyone and everything in his life. Second, he was angry I did not seem to him to be standing up to wife when she was hurting both of us. Sort of a “protect me better” complaint. He thought I was wimpy for not being mean to W. We are slowly working on what forgiveness, compassion and solving hard problems mean, now.

He is supposed to confront W with his anger soon. It keeps getting put off by the psychologist because he feels DS is not ready yet. Way too angry and hurt still. There were times DS wanted to break the windows in her car with his baseball bat. One day coming home from (catholic) school right after DDay he said, “Dad, we studied the Ten Commandments in religion class today. I know what mom did. She committed adultery and she did the opposite of covet thy neighbors wife. Oh, and she lies all the time too.” For a long time he would barely speak to W and not let her hug him. Kids have a strong sense of fairness and honesty. It seems to be innate.

DS and W are supposed to talk whenever DS wants to. DS knows enough so that the psychologist says W needs to answer all his questions truthfully. One of his first questions to her was whether I was his real dad. It must be so hard for my W to have to face him. But she is doing it.

I wish DS did not have to go through any of this. It hurts to see him in this much pain - as much as any pain I have gone through myself. Like all the faithful parents here, I would take it all on me if it would remove it from him.

T

<small>[ August 28, 2004, 10:39 PM: Message edited by: Thos ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by DadsD:
It’s the “customizing” for some reason that rubs me the wrong way. I know it has to be age appropriate – absolutely. But I’ve have more than enough “customized” lies to last me a lifetime.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here DadsD goes again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
I said 'customized truth' not 'customized lies' <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

E.g. a beloved one dies, what do you say to a child:
dead and worms will eat them up and they will turn into ash
or - went to be an little cute angel, to watch us from the high sky...

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Question – so your son believes that mom loves and cares for him in one way…and dad lovs and cares for him in another way?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know if he BELIEVES, but one day he will know&understand... for it is truth. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


Thanks! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ August 28, 2004, 11:35 PM: Message edited by: Belonging to Nowhere ]</small>

Thos...

... :-((

Yeah… there I go again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

It’s the only way I know how. Your reality is a lot different from mine – different from most people I know actually. You have what appears to be a good situation being a split family. I pray that it continues that way for your son as he grows older. I know no adult who has survived a split family emotionally whole. None. But there are always exceptions and maybe your family and your son will be among them. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I realize that you view truth and lies from a different stance than I do. And that’s ok because in all things we have to do what we think works best for us. But what I’m saying is that it rarely works for any person that has been in mine or your son’s shoes. (My social circle is full of adults who were raised in various split families and most of them had infidelity at the core.) So I speak to you from where your son might be 20 or 30 years from now. Note, I said might… <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

And based on my experience, what you’re telling him now and how you’re telling him has repercussions that will extend far longer than you realize. Granted at 3, you have to figure that he probably won’t remember much of what you’ve told him today – but you’re already, IMO <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> , in the practice of “customizing” what you say to him. It can be a hard habit to break and before you know it he’ll be 16 and you’ll be customizing what to tell him when if his Dad decides a vacation with his girlfriend is more important than teaching him to drive. Because it’s ok for Dad to do that since Dad loves him in a different way than Mom does. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

And forgive me but I cannot quite wrap my mind around that concept. I see how I love my family differently than the way I love my friends. I loved my dog differently than the way I love my sister. But loving one parent differently than the other? Or having one parent love me differently? I don’t get it. Out of my frame of reference. But, I’m sure your son will one day know and understand. I’m just not sure he’ll know and understand in the way you’d hoped – customized versions of truth or lies will do that to a person. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

For the record though – I can see how a parent can confuse telling a child something in an age-appropriate manner with customizing an explanation in a way that the parent thinks a child will accept or will protect them from the realities of this situation. Death is not what we’re dealing with here…well its what I am dealing but with my my case is not yours…so the potential fallout from how you discuss this topic – marriage, family and infidelity - with a child are different than that of a discussion about death.

I may not be explaining myself well – I’ll have to think on it more. But I guess its all in how you approach the task. Are you phrasing your statement to a child because you want to tell him the truth in a way his mind will be able to understand at his current age? Or are you phrasing, re-writing, cloaking it because you’re afraid he’ll be too hurt or will see the wandering parent in a negative light or just because…

Not asking anyone specifically – just trying to further flesh out and explain my pov. If the approach is the former – to me that’s ok. If it’s the latter, then it’s a lie – and not ok.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hello DadsD,
Finally I got enough sleep (my son is with his dad this weekend, that's why I spent so much time here as well...)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know no adult who has survived a split family emotionally whole. None. But there are always exceptions and maybe your family and your son will be among them. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have no idea how petrified I am... :-(
I just do what I think is the best for my son under circumstances... and I don't know if I'm right or wrong... not yet... usually we see our mistakes when is too late... I just hope it won't be case with my son... want him to be that exception, begging God to be there for him too... huhhh.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I realize that you view truth and lies from a different stance than I do. And that’s ok because in all things we have to do what we think works best for us.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe not. Maybe our ways of telling is the only difference? Probably when you hear 'my way' you forget (at least for the moment) that I talk to 3 years old, and you recall what you'd prefer to hear, and your perception is now when you are 30(?) not when you were 3 as him...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But what I’m saying is that it rarely works for any person that has been in mine or your son’s shoes. (My social circle is full of adults who were raised in various split families and most of them had infidelity at the core.) So I speak to you from where your son might be 20 or 30 years from now. Note, I said might… </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know and as I said I'm scared of consequences this might cause in his life later on... i.e. (more important to me) 'psychological' consequences... to grow up 'not as a whole'...
Is he going to be able to have his own family one day and keep it together, respect it...
But this doesn't depend ONLY on growing with split parents...
I was raised in a very loving family... And a very sincere one. :-) My parents have been married for 47 years and still love each other and take care of each other, and they'll stay together till the last breath... Yet I have no success with keeping my family together... No rules...
But, yes, I grew up as a whole, in home full of love, respect, support...
And feel so sorry for my son... and so - guilty... :-(

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...but you’re already, IMO :-) , in the practice of “customizing” what you say to him. It can be a hard habit to break and before you know it he’ll be 16 and you’ll be customizing what to tell him when if his Dad decides a vacation with his girlfriend is more important than teaching him to drive. Because it’s ok for Dad to do that since Dad loves him in a different way than Mom does. :-)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">:-)

When he's 16, maybe he won't have the time to go with his dad, because he'll be busy with his own GF. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Look, at that time, I don't think I'll 'customize'! No need for that!
Simply, daddy goes on vacation with his GF (well, the same he'll hear from his dad I guess, so no need for me to comment this at all... my son should respect that his dad has his own private life as my son will have... and sometimes our free times are at different times, and he can teach him driving after vacation, evenings... or something like that...
And, yes, at that age (and earlier), he'll know that we love him different ways :-) ;
My son is on top of my priorities list, nothing is more important, to go or to be somewhere else, if my son needs me. And his dad is not like that. If dad chose vacation, it doesn't mean he doesn't love him, just that he put his personal needs before needs of his son...
What can you do?
The same with selfish parents, they can live together and have no infidelity, but put their own needs but not kids' as top priorities...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But loving one parent differently than the other? Or having one parent love me differently? I don’t get it. Out of my frame of reference.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't get why you don't get this.
We all don't have the same capacity for love, for care... we are less or more selfish than others... I don't understand why it's not clear...
Do you love more parent who is there for you or the one who abandoned you? The same???
One parent loves so much and gives up many important things for the child's sake, the other parents doesn't love so much and take care first of their needs than of their kids needs... Do they love the same??

I'm NOT telling THIS to my kid!!! I'm not explaining my thoughts like here to you... just state that his dad loves him and if he's away it means my son is not abandoned and with no love from his dad...

He'll be aware of this one day if not even now, even if he doesn't, the fact (for myself) is we love (him) different ways... :-)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Death is not what we’re dealing with here…well its what I am dealing but with my my case is not yours…so the potential fallout from how you discuss this topic – marriage, family and infidelity - with a child are different than that of a discussion about death.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't think so. It is death - of our Family.
No more Family.
No place for that theme intended either - that sample was supposed just to explain further WORDS you have to chose when talking to the CHILD.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I may not be explaining myself well – I’ll have to think on it more.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Obviously I do the same. :-)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you phrasing your statement to a child because you want to tell him the truth in a way his mind will be able to understand at his current age?
Or are you phrasing, re-writing, cloaking it because you’re afraid he’ll be too hurt or will see the wandering parent in a negative light</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Both.

He's 3 and no way he can understand. ('dad likes more toys of OW than those ones of your mom' <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )
Nor he should - he's too little for a such BURDEN on his shoulder.
(The same when - no money today for toys when we go to store, I don't explain how much I earn and what are our expenses... of course...)

Yes, I don't want him to be (too) hurt.
If I see 'a branch falling down and will hit him, I'd put my body in front of him to protect him...
It's TOO EARLY that he faces reality when cruel!
Once he's big enough he'll see the branch falling down, and I hope I'll teach him by that time to either not to go there or avoid hit by himself... or his body will be strong enough and he'll get just a little bruise and go further in his life, with a new experience, more knowledgeable and - stronger...

And, yes, I don't want my son not to love and respect his dad, especially not if MY words might cause it!...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">or just because…</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">... I don't know better. Now. And at this age of his.

That's why I'm here, and everywhere else!, where I can learn more, and change 'my way' accordingly.
I'll anyway grow up with my son, as the mom, I'll be changing too with every inch of his growth... and I'm willing and ready for that...


Any books you could recommend?
Anyone else? (if people survived so long text <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

Best regards <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ August 29, 2004, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: Belonging to Nowhere ]</small>

Thos (please be around, before this thread is pushed...),

Would you mind please to say more, your opinion on:
- why did A have so hard damage on your kid
- what would you done differently to minimize these negative impacts?

Thank you!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Belonging to Nowhere:
<strong>
I just do what I think is the best for my son under circumstances... and I don't know if I'm right or wrong... not yet... usually we see our mistakes when is too late... I just hope it won't be case with my son... want him to be that exception, begging God to be there for him too... huhhh. </strong> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh of course you do what you think is best for your child! That’s all any child can ask of their parent. I’d never doubt that for a second. I don’t doubt that from any of the members of this site.

And we all want our kids, our family and our lives to be the exception – but few people are willing to take the road that’s more likely to make that happen. They follow the same steps that everyone else does – but expect different results. It is my belief that just being a member of this site and learning the techniques etc here is a huge start on a different path.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe our ways of telling is the only difference? Probably when you hear 'my way' you forget (at least for the moment) that I talk to 3 years old, and you recall what you'd prefer to hear, and your perception is now when you are 30(?) not when you were 3 as him...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is very likely the case – a difference in the ways of telling. And I do realize that you’re talking to a 3 year old at the moment – but here’s my caveat. I think parents trip themselves up in these situations because they fail to make the adjustments in the truth telling as their kids grow older. Especially when they’ve had to start as early as you have. So the hindsight comes later on when a child has been dealing with divorced parents since he was very small – and by the time the child is a teen or young adult – mom or dad are still telling them things as if they were the age when things started falling apart.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know and as I said I'm scared of consequences this might cause in his life later on... i.e. (more important to me) 'psychological' consequences... to grow up 'not as a whole'...
Is he going to be able to have his own family one day and keep it together, respect it...
But this doesn't depend ONLY on growing with split parents...
I was raised in a very loving family... And a very sincere one. :-) My parents have been married for 47 years and still love each other and take care of each other, and they'll stay together till the last breath... Yet I have no success with keeping my family together... No rules...
But, yes, I grew up as a whole, in home full of love, respect, support...
And feel so sorry for my son... and so - guilty... :-( </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But honestly? The very fact that you are scared and somewhat guilty (not too much I hope) is a good thing because at least you’re aware and trying. You’re taking SOME action towards making sure your son comes through this as unscathed as possible. Believe you me – that’s more than MOST parents I know who are in your shoes and unwilling to even consider or try to plan out how their child is going to handle this very adult sitauation as they grow. And I’m talking about betrayed parents such as yourself. In my experience – just going by my friends etc – most times the betrayed parent gave little or no consideration to their child’s emotional health in all of this. They go along with the mindset that the kids are too young to understand or if they do understand assume that the child will just somehow know that this doesn’t affect them. They sweep that portion under the rug. And therefore we do have all of these accomplished young people who are emotionally incapable of attempting a solid healthy relationship or marriage.

So my kudos to you for even stopping to consider what your son is going through today and what he might be going through in the future.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We all don't have the same capacity for love, for care... we are less or more selfish than others... I don't understand why it's not clear... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand different capacities of love – I’ve just never had it applied to parental love in this way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm NOT telling THIS to my kid!!! I'm not explaining my thoughts like here to you... just state that his dad loves him and if he's away it means my son is not abandoned and with no love from his dad... He'll be aware of this one day if not even now, even if he doesn't, the fact (for myself) is we love (him) different ways... :-)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m sorry if I misuderstood but in your previous post you said that your son knows now that mom and dad love him differently.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> - that sample was supposed just to explain further WORDS you have to chose when talking to the CHILD. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Since my first post on this thread that has been my point. It’s the subtle and seemingling inconsequential differences between one word or phrase over another that can change the a child’s understanding of the topic drastically.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
And, yes, I don't want my son not to love and respect his dad, especially not if MY words might cause it!... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I totally understand that desire – wanting your son to love and respect his dad. But that’s not your’s to control. Your son’s relationship with his father is dependent on him and his father – and right now its mostly on his father. You could go either way with your words – paint dad in the most favorble and loving terms – and their relationship could still go wrong. Same goes if you had nothing but bitter hateful words about dad. This is their relationship. You can’t force it to go one way or another even if you want it for your child. Unfortanately they both have to want it otherwise it doesn’t work.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Any books you could recommend? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, no books to recommend. Sometimes I’ve found the best research is just to talk to people who’ve been there. Like I’ve said before, most of my adult friends – avg age mid-30’s – have experience with this. Most of them grew up in divorce situations – I have a guy friend who is the result of an affair that continues to this day. He and his mom (the OW) live in one city. His father, father’s wife and their children live in another city. His father “visits” semi-regularly and his mother, who never married, allows it. He is in his late 20’s and has no other siblings – save his half-siblings who have nothing to do with him. We have some interesting discussions because he is vehemently anti-marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Best regards <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To you as well.

This is a great thread and I wanted to participate not from the parents POV, but from the childs. I grew up in a split household and My mother had an A when I was about 11-13. There's so much to say in regards to how these situations affected me. Its phenomenal how much of an impact your actions will have on your childrens future actions and feelings regarding fanily and what that means. Please do not be condescending and say garbage like
"OH children are so resilient!"
Yes, children do not wither away and die due to the crap their P's create, but they are damaged and they will repeat, rebell and internalize their reactions to your behaviour.

My mother used me to facilitate her A with OM. I can recall visiting with OM. My mom even had me convinced that OM was my real dad! What a load of garbage! I'm not sure if this was truly what she believed or not, but I've always known that I had a different father than 2 of my brothers and sisters. Being a child from a previous relationship is very difficult for a child especially when your father or mother is not in your life. The sheer fact you have a differnt last name is a constant reminder. I was different. I felt insecure about my place in the family much of my adolescent life and I'm sure it has impacted me in my adult life. My need to reclaim that which was not given to me as a child has motivated many of my actions. We all come with baggage, but there's definetly a INDUSTRIAL sized bag of broken promises and half truths that the split household child must contend with. Make it your lifes work to be there for your children, you cannot ensure that your WS will always stick to their convictions and remain prominent in your childs life, but please always be honest. The lies and no contact are by far the hardest issues for your child to navigate. The truth is what it is, and as much as we seek to protect our children, it becomes painfully obvious as time progresses. I'm speaking philosophically and maybe as this thread continues I can be more direct in my responses. I should have prefaced my comments earlier mentioning that I DO have a call of reference from the CHILD's perspective when dealing with both infidelity and split households.

Share the truth with them at an age responsible way. At age 3 a child will understand very little about their place in the world or what has occured in their family, but at age 6 we do understand more and began to compare our families to other households that we see in cartoon, television and what have you. I'd say for me, it was age 12 that I really could comprehend how my family life was different than many of my playmates, shoolmates and friends in general. As I said earlier, the lies and half truths ate away at me from 12 and beyond. Just look at me, I left home at 17 with my GF now W, to think that doesn't at least partially something to do with my family life is absurd. I know I'm speaking philosphically, but I hope to speak more in detail and offer advice from this all important perspective. What a jar of hornets!!