Well, we did have our counseling session after me telling my W I saw her with OM and her telling me I was (and am) crazy. I was sure beforehand that she was going to manipulate our couples counselor into validating her point of view the way she usually does. I spent the two days leading up to it rehearsing what I was going to say and every possible kind of thing that might come up. Just how depressing the whole thing really is didn't hit me until then. Anyway, when we actually got there, we started out by talking about the fight we had on our Labor Day weekend trip, because that was what lead up to confrontation. Well, the long and short of it is, we got going on the issue of our fighting again, and we never got to the part about the confrontation! My W was upset over our failure to bring this up but I was, frankly, relieved that I didn't have to get myself labeled officially crazy just yet.<P>So, the issue is on the table anyway. She knows that I know about her affair, even if she wants to deny it and call me crazy. She knows I've SEEN her with the OM, and I think that's going to make a difference. She likes to present herself as this totally straightforward, honest, up-front, wise, sincere-type person (a real Miss Goody-two-shoes if I ever met one!) and I'm hoping that knowing that I know about her affair at least puts a dent in her armor. I think I'm going to leave it at that for now and see what happens.<P>Regards and blessings,<P>--Wex

How is she relating to you now that she knows that you know? Is she kind, elusive, angry, what? Just curious.

I would say kind but elusive. I think her individual therapist is telling her what to do vis-a-vis me. But she definitely has changed the way she behaves towards me. She's become a LOT less - well you know what. We're actually getting along much better, though we're still sleeping separately, and I've let her know I don't just want to "kiss and make up" and go back to our old way of relating.<P>--Wex

Wexwill<P>Are you avoiding the confrontation when you actually sit your W down and tell her straight out that you know. And this whole issue is about your W being with OM then why not start the conselling with that fact that you know therefore you both can deal with the issue.<P>

toronto - I haven't been able to figure out how to raise the issue in counseling without getting it all put back on my head as a failure of trust on my part. If I say something like "I know you're having an affair," she just denies it. And, because she has more credibility with our counselor (I'm starting to realize that's what it is) he accepts her denial as true and so makes the whole thing into a failure of trust on my part. My problem is, I really don't have enough solid evidence to convince a third party that she's having an affair. Out of sheer frustration because my own snooping hasn't turned up anything, I'm starting a secret "P.I. fund." I've realized a pro can do this a lot better than I can, though I'm going to keep it up anyway.<P>In fact, my W just left on what I'm sure is a "date" with the OM. She took a shower, dressed up in her sexiest outfit and just left without telling me where she was going. And without wearing her wedding or engagement rings! Again, I'm going to go looking for her car and if I find it, I'm going to stake it out. This worked once, though it hasn't since then, but I'm going to keep trying anyway. If I look enough, I'm sure to see something!<P>--Wex

Wex, keep up the PI work. For the longest time I wasn't ready to see the real truth. I tried to believe the stories he told me. Let me tell you, a small amount of information can get you lots on the internet. I found out where the ow lived, worked, and had all of the phone #'s. I had caller ID under the bed and hit *69 after every phone call. I would even search his car at 2:00 am to see if I could find anything out. He even came home once from a trip (said he needed time to think) and brought the hotel plastic bag home. It was easy to get info from that. Believe it or not he seemed surprised that I knew. Anyway don't give up trying to find out, even my counselor suggest a PI. Needless to say in the end, it was my mom who busted him.....long story and if you are interested I'll be happy to share with you. Good luck, Keep trusting your instincts....they are usually right.

hi wex, wow, this counselor sounds like a waste of time and money. Why not quit the counselor, put the money toward the pi? Or we will take up a collection for you? I am happy to donate to such a worthy cause as you finding the truth and moving forward with your life!! (((hugs))) cl

Wex - I agree with cl on this. I would also contribute to the PI fund. The lying is the worst part of this. If you could get the truth, you could either fix what's wrong or move on.<P>I know how you are feeling. Hopefully, this will soon wake her up. Hang in there, my friend.

I glanced through NW's thread to you guys about her husband being dis-interested as to whether or not she was having an affair.<P>It made me think about how my husband would (or rather wouldn't) react to me having an affair-if I ever would have one. (Hey - quit clobbering me out there - I'm not going to have an affair.... this is hypothetical, okay????)<P>I think my husband would totally avoid the confrontation (conflict avoider), and instead would gather up information, and when he decided he needed it as ammunition to get himself out of hot water, he'd let me have it - both barrels.<P>For me, IF (hypothetically) I was having an affair, it would be an unsaid cry for help in my marriage. It would be to say to my husband "HEY - THE FURNITURE/STEPFORD WIFE HAS SOME KIND OF OPINION AND NEEDS YOU TO TAKE NOTICE THAT SHE IS A REAL PERSON WITH FEELINGS, NEEDS AND - WELL, GUESS WHAT! SHE TALKS TOO...."<P>I'm not saying your wife is feeling this way, but she's feeling something - and I'm wondering what it is?<p>[This message has been edited by trustntruth (edited September 19, 1999).]

TNT - Thanks for your personal take on this kind of situation and for sharing that with me. Interesting to IMAGINE ourselves having an affair isn't it? (I do it too.) I'm wondering what my W is feeling too. She does have a laundry list of complaints about how I relate to her and I am working on them as best I can. As a result of our couples counseling and my individual therapy, I do have my violent temper under a LOT better control and no longer throw tantrums the way I used to. These WERE a big "lovebuster" and I've worked VERY hard to try and get this side of my personality under better control, more or less successfully, I feel. I'm even better at doing chores, showing more initiative and taking better care of myself. I do drink, which she doesn't like, but only because I'm depressed about our situation. Before I started suspecting she was having an affair, I didn't drink, so there's a vicious circle here. On the other hand, she's NEVER been the furniture/stepford wife type and I do listen to her, realize she has a lot to say, and provide a LOT of emotional support for her in her work. I also buy her flowers a lot, tell her how great she looks, how much I love her, etc., etc. The upshot of all this being that I really can't figure out what she's trying to tell me by having an affair, other than that she likes two different types of man - this is from stuff she's told me - the sensitive poet type (which I am) and the worldly successful macho man type, which I'm guessing the OM is. Since it's hard to find these combined in one guy, she'll settle for two. That's the best I can come up with. I also think she has some serious childhood traumas to work through in therapy - which, unfortunately, I think she's using mainly to validate her viewpoint vis-a-vis me.<P>cl and Heartpain - thanks for the offers of contributions. I may take you up on them (though it would involve revealing my secret identity). I'm just getting this rolling and will get back to you on this. I wish I'd thought of this a year ago. I'd have all this behind me by now!<P>gladimadeit - Yeah, I do get discouraged. I was so sure after seeing her get out of his car a couple of months ago that I was on the verge of "busting" them. But since then, I haven't had much luck in this dept. I think she's just gotten more careful because she suspects (correctly) that I'm snooping. So my efforts over the last couple of weeks haven't amounted to much. And I get really resentful, sometimes, at having to DO this kind of thing at all.<P>Example - Yesterday, when I was sure she gone on a date with the OM, I drove around to almost every motel in the area looking for her car and/or the OM's with no luck. (I don't think they go to motels, but it's the only lead I had.) I wasted a good 1-1/2 hours doing this, and I strongly resent HAVING to waste this kind of time or doing things like lurking in the bushes watching her car for an hour! Today, I was originally going to rent a car, put on my disguise (fake beard) and follow her after her out-of-state hair appointment, which I'm sure she uses to rendezvous with the OM (because she spends the entire afternoon out). But I just wasn't up to it (plus things were scheduled at work that had to be done). This is why I'm now leaning more and more to HIRING a PI instead of trying to do it myself.<P>Anyway, I AM interested in hearing how your mom busted your H and his OW. (I think if mine were alive, she'd do the same thing for me!) My email is wexwill@hotmail.com.<P>--Wex

Wex - If you are serious about this, I couldn't give you a fortune, but I would be happy to donate to such a worthy cause(as cl so aptly put it). You could use a PO Box in another city, that way you could receive mail not specifically addressed to an individual.<P>You know, why can't I be so cunning with my own situation?