After another night of poor sleep and nightmares. Another day and evening where my WW is as spiteful to me as can be. Another day when my kids ask me whats wrong and when will the 'no talking' stop?.

I fear I am running out of gas. My own scant resources have held this family together for the past seven weeks and I feel my resources running low today.

I know there are good signs for my M here but the pain and constant suppression of my true feelings are taking their toll on me.

I mean the facts speak for themselves :
* WW still in my house - no effort to move out
* OM & WW no independent income. Can't set up together without help of spouse/partner
* OM reconciling his butt off even BEFORE tragically losing his son
* OM denied WW to OM GF
* OM refused offer to split finance 50/50 and leave from GF and is working on reconciliation
* OM is not calling WW, WW is calling OM
* No PC since d-day,only phone calls
* OM GF fully aware and I am in contact with her about to forge an affair-breaking alliance
* OM begged me not to expose proof: "NC deal" on the table for him right now
* I have lots of ways to further expose OM if needed
* A looks dead in the water but W is forging ahead with it as if it is healthy anyway

And more. So it looks far more positive for my situation than many or most BS on here I guess.

BUT my WW hasn't lifted a FINGER to recommit to our M. Her unreasonableness and fog are way beyond that which should be borne by a proud man.
She has shown absolutely zero recognition that she has done anything wrong, regrettable or hurtful to anyone. She cares only for the OM: for his 'love' and his sadness over his son.

She is hurting the kids. she is deliberately hurting me day after day after day.

I look down a road fo maybe MONTHS or YEARS of this brutality and I really don't know if I can do it. Humour helps occasionally, but when the laughing stops, the sadness and indignance at the injustice of my situation returns.

I am absolutely ITCHING for a 'closed door' LB session with WW where some home truths are said. I really want to tell her :
" Look, I still want you back, but I no longer need you back. You can no longer assume I will be here as your passionless provider for ever. You don't love me, leave, but can't you see that OM will never do more than lie to you and have occasional sex with you if you continue your A ? The A is only alive in your head and his hopeful trousers."

But I can't. I must suppress, choke down, suck up.
Even my rants have become unpleasant on here yesterday which shows just how frustrated I am.

I have no-one to confide in about this stuff other than this MB. Most friends and relatives are frankly useless. They can't stand to discuss stuff to the level I need to discuss stuff at. It is too strong meat for them. They want to hear everything is OK, and they want veneer assurance. They on't want to hear the existential decisions I am faced with. My best friend is on vacation, and I use him too much anyway fo rthis. He's as soft and caring as a puppy and my discussions upset him greatly. He loves me ( and WW) dearly but I know it burdens him for me to bear my soul.

My boss is being wonderful but will not wait for me for ever. I run a large part of a huge company's business in EMEA and many people suffer (including myself) while I am so distracted and unmotivated. and I am missing my work. I am good at it and it is fulfilling. Particularly now when the rest of my life is not so.

I am afraid the 'plan A poster child' is running out of gas. Right now being alone with the kids would be more manageble than this. And no I can't 'plan B' properly for the reasons above. WW and OM have no way financially to live independently, nor does OM want to.

So I am faced with months or years of drinking down daily humiliation until my WW wakes up and smells what she is shovelling. If she ever does.

I feel like releasing my last weapons in this to try to break her fog down : but these involve the 'destruction' of OM (exposure of A and illegal activities to all interested parties that OM is involved with) but how can I do that in good conscience when I know he is ALREADY backpedalling from WW and trying reconcile AND the dreadful tragic time he and family are enduring ? How can I add to that in good conscence?

In truth, OMs part in this drama is almost over IMO. The A is only alive in my WWs head and I can't get inside there. But the monster she has become as a result of this A is unbearable to live with.

If someone I didn't love was doing to my family what she is, I would not tolerate it for a second.

I will pray for more strength and endurance. This is the hardest thing I have ever done. I see no end to it. I see unique challenges and iinhibitors in my path of 'Plan A/B' which complicate my path.

Yesterday I was down. Today I am very down. Its been a good couple of weeks, I guess I am allowed a couple of bad days.

I will have a coffee and try to steel myself for another day's Plan A.

I hope that sall it is. because if I DO run out of gas, its all over. What a responsibility: I am the person who will determine the outcome of two families' attempts at recovering happiness for ever now. Only I am placed to hold the mess together and influence it while it works out.

Running a $5bn business is nothing compared to that responsibility. And it intimidates me.

I am wondering if I am not being selfish in trying to rescue WW. Maybe a new start away from her poison will be better for the kids. I dunno today. In short term at least....

Sorry about the long post. Like I said I have nowhere else to say this important stuff. I wish I lived near another MBer.

Thanks all. I hope you all have more inspiration today than I have.
{{{{mb}}}}

Bob, I am going to go completely against MB here because it was one of the things that actually turned me around. We had some HUGE fights, the only ones we'd ever had in our marriage.

Tell her all this.

I am going to be shot down in flames for this but honestly, I think you should do it. Anyway, as a FWW I think I'm allowed to say to do it if it worked for us.

Jen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope that sall it is. because if I DO run out of gas, its all over. What a responsibility: I am the person who will determine the outcome of two families' attempts at recovering happiness for ever now. Only I am placed to hold the mess together and influence it while it works out.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bob, something to watch out for. Many As are about a power struggle. Don't fool yourself into thinking that you are the one who will determine the outcome for everybody. You will not. You have a little power over it. You have more power over the outcome for yourself and for your children, but your WW holds many of the cards, and the sooner you begin trying to accept that, the better.

Hang in there Bob, it's a long trip. Patience, REAL patience, is an important thing for you to have. Patience that will outlast your WW's "lost feelings", which she may not find for a good long time. It's gut-check time.

No more midnight drives though, right?

GC

dear Jen, I dunno... I really don't.

Seems like chucking away all the great work I've done in plan A if it doesn't work...but she just isn't facing the facts now.

I have considered telling her sister this and her SISTER can have this discussion with her ( SIL is lovely, my friend and an advocate of saving our M. Thinks WW has behaved like a "selfish little girl').

I dunno Jen. Its all so very hard and uncerain.

This morning I took her coffee to bed and I stroked her hand. And she stroked mine back. First affection in seven weeks. Or was she just too sleepy to not know it wasn't OM ? Or too sleepy to remember to be mean to me ?

* sigh *

GC I know my WW hold all the cards, I was not clear in my post. That is what terrifies me. I meant I am the only 'aware' non-fogged person in this game right now, and I am woefully ill-equipped.

Without my scant, influencing efforts the happiness of seven people are dependent on the whims of my crazy wife. It feels so unlikely that she will ever de-fog right now that it seems like months/years of gut wrenching for probably nothing.

This isn't about patience GC IMO, its about endurance. And I am too rational to endure when the likelihood of success is low, as it appears to me right now.

I will go to the gym in a while. I will pray again. I will get some strength to carry on.

I am not being dramatic, the opposite really.

It looks so unliely that WW will ever wake up that this effort seems to deliver a very poor return on investment.

This stuff really hurts, its not like I have to endure a discomfort. Its big stuff.

Thanks for your insight again though GC. Always appreciated <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

And don't worry - pathetic Bob was left at the roadside that night, never to return. I WILL drive late tonite if the sky is clear but only to show my kids the stars off the top of the Clent Hills. No wine & cipramil {{{gc}}}

<small>[ August 28, 2004, 02:47 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

Bob, I agree with Jen, sometimes it just takes true Radical Honesty about what's on your mind, (LB or no, try not to) to get through the fog. Hard truth is hard truth whether the WS wants to hear it or not. Perhaps you might want to give her a list of both the positives AND negatives rather than talking directly to her. Less foot in the mouth, that way.

My H and I also had it OUT and it was not LBing necessarily, it was TRUTH and truth I NEEDED to hear. My inexplicable behaviour as a sullen, disrespectful child (b/c I couldn't have what I wanted) needed to be dealt with in a strong fashion. My H needed to pull his pants up, so to speak.

Fog speak is one thing, out and out defiance as your wife has shown by the continued phoning and verbal disrespect is another. There are worse things than a few LBs here and there, Bob. Accepting poor behavior is not PLan A. Did you ever check out the Notable Posts Page There are some good articles on Plan A that you might want to review. There was another really good thread a while back titled "What Plan A is, and What it is Not"....something like that anyway.

Spend some time on these posts Bob, I'm sorry the fog is so thick over your way. It gets that way sometimes, but don''t lose hope yet. An honest airing of the facts as they stand and your feelings may be just the ticket to clear the air. You have your dignity still Bob but you must protect it.

KiwiJ and her H had some major fights, H and I had some REAL doozies but we are both recovered couples today. You need to be able to express yourself Bob, to not be constantly tiptoeing around her disrespectful behaviour. I think it is possible to achieve this with a minimum of LBing and DJing but don't be SO afraid of slipping that you end up robbing yourself of your sense of dignity. It's your life after all. KB

P.S. Threadjack for KiwiJ: Good for you, Jen. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

KB I thank you for that insight. I need to be stronger and more positive in attiude before having that discussion. And I need my kids to be well away.

I have not prostrated myself before WWs fog, I feel my dignity is upheld so far but I have tolerated such open disrespect as the OM cellphone by only pointing out that I think it is disrespectful so far.

I am not a man who is able to allow himself to be humiliated even to save my M. There is dignity in a measured response I believe. It is time perhaps to raise my measure.

If I am strong enough I will will not argue with WW, I will state our situation as I see it. if W chooses to be angry ( as I suspect she will) then it is not my doing, as her self-imposed misery is not my doing.

I feel I must find a way to say these things without LBing.

But to be honest - what is WW gonna do even if I DO LB ? OM doesn't want her. She can't move out. She can't be MORE mean and hurtful to me.

Perhaps I have less to lose by being more forthright than I originally thought.

Hard times...thanks for your insight once again.

<small>[ August 28, 2004, 02:56 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Bob Pure:
<strong>I feel I must find a way to say these things without LBing.

But to be honest - what is WW gonna do even if I DO LB ? OM doesn't want her. She can't move out. She can't be MORE mean and hurtful to me.

Perhaps I have less to lose by being more forthright than I originally thought. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NOW you're thinking! Simply stated: My disrespect could only continue as long as my husband ALLOWED it. He held all the cards, as do you. Think on this as well as the Plan A review. It's after 1:00 AM here on the West Coast, bedtime for me! We're praying for the both of you Bob, not a day goes by without. KB

Thanks KB. I have just taken my dog on a 'prayer walk' but the heavens were brass this morning. I guess because I am too sad and angry to make any sense. I know God knows my heart though.

Bob just say your piece/peace and nothing more. Do not get in a huge back and forth insult slinging artillery exchange that may escalate and escalate. Have what your going to say already scripted. Be prepared (though something tells me you've already taken those steps). Bob I'm rooting for you, praying for you and in your corner securely. Your family needs her back, and so do you. You've been doing a fantastic job Bob. Please don't let the outcome of this *discussion somehow derail you into total despair if she doesn't reform instantly. The effects of you confronting her ACTIONS not her, may not soak in for a while. Come back here and vent if you feel the need, no come back here and vent Bob, because frankly when you vent, I vent. In a way you vent for all of us caught on the recieving end of this terrible injustice of being a BS.

Take Care

FM thats wise counsel thanks.

I do not intend a vent to WW. It doesn't help on HERE so it can only break something in my plan A if I do it 'live'

I just need to establish some boundaries with hr so that I may have some 'safe space' to operate within as I try to plan A.

These are my biggies :

* Unless you commit to NC you are doing nothing to help rebuild our M. Just staying in our house as a convenience until such times as OM wins the lottery or changes his mind about reconciling is not contributing to rebuilding our M.

I cannot rebuild our M alone. You want to maintain contact with OM 'as a friend' but that is not possible. While you cointact him the A is still alive. Loss of all contact - even the friendship ( well, EA) you had pre-A is one price of your infidelity with him. I am not telling you NC, I cannot make you do anything. I am just telling you how I feel about the rebuilding of our M.

* The second cellphone you use to contact OM shows a level of insensitivity and disrespect that I cannot accept from you any longer as I try my best to begin to rebuild our M. I will maintain a personal phone service for you but I will not fund a medium of you keeping hopes of the affair alive. You must decide which phone you wish to surrender and I will cease that account. Then I ask that you do not use this phone to contact OM. I would like to do this in joint agreement with you, but the disrespect and the danger to our M recovery that this phone presents is so great that I will unilaterally cancel accounts if I need to. Please try to understand how your flagrant contact with OM at my expense feels to ME.

* You tell our friends that I am being 'too possessive and suspicious' and this is driving you away. Can you not see that you have not been at all trustworthy for many months now? It is clear that you want 'trust' from me only so that you can maintain what is left of your A with OM. this is not acceptable to me. You must understand that while you are not candid with me about your actions I must continue to find out from any source I can what your activities regarding the A have been.

* We both know that you have converted the kids college fund into a personal account for yourself. I would remind you that this is not your money, it is our childrens money. It is not a rash value judgement from me to say that to use these funds to persue an affair that is not in the best interests of the children is not the right thing to do.

* After these difficult seven weeks I feel that much positive has happened which indicates that we may have some basis to restore our M. However in that time I have changed. I am a far stronger and more independent person than the one you shocked into trauma by your admission of a PA.

I can tell you now that I have deconstructed my feelings. I still have some love for you, but your behaviour is depleting this. I care for you but this cannot continue indefinitely without return.

In truth, I WANT you back as my wife so we can work on building a stronger R than ever but I no longer NEED you in my life.

In view of this change in my make up you cannot expect me to put up with deliberately hurtful and disrespectful behaviour any longer.

* These are not demands, I am simply restating some boundaries that we first discussed many weeks ago.I cannot make you recognise these boundaries.

If you feel you cannot continue to live in our house without adhering to these boundaries: being disrespectful, or untrustworthy to me, or hurtful to the children OR that you cannot maintain no contact with OM then I ask that consider leaving so that we may all be happpier. I do not want you to leave, but I am not desperate enough to tolerate deliberately hurtful behaviour any longer. My dream is that we be happy together, but I would rather be happy apart than miserable together.

what U think ?

dear bob

I have been following your sad story . I was an OM. Single . Your WW reminds me of the WW , i had an affair with. I was never interested in her wellbeing. I never persued her. She came on me. She was 15 years older than me. Even after i have broken that relation ( thank god i did not have sex with her ), she kept on coming to me for some 5 months. Every time she called her, i disrespected her. I called her a slut.

But she never stopped. A honest exposure from me killed that relation. Then only she came to the senses. BOB you are too good. Too good to be here in this place. You dont know how the WW mind works. They are obsessed and obessed with OM. We speak what they want to hear. This is new for them, the passion, the extra ENs met, hot sex <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
. They are in another world.

Most of them forget that the ENs met are extra.

Bob you are too good for that lady. (she is not yet your wife) . If you want your wife, you have to kill that lady.There is no other way. How to do that?

SHE HAS TO CRASH. CRASH LIKE A F1 car on a track. Completely destroyed. Then only that wonderful wife you married,loved,smothered will come out of that. There is no way. No man will love to do that. Seeing the love of your life crash, but there is no way. Its time for truth. They have to face the truth.

Why dont you contact a lawyer about your position on seperation and divorce?. You are now seen as a constant in her life. you should make her understand that , its not like that. If possible throw her out. PLAN B. She does not see( fog is too small word, she is behind a 10 metre iron wall) what she is gonna miss. It is time for some hard truth.

You are plan A ing very good, but as long as you are doing this without getting anything back, your Love Bank for her diminishes. Suddenly you may end up with a 0 balance. What will you do then?.

IS she missing anything now in her life?????
Nothing . A great husband who treats her as a queen eventhough she does not recognize your existence, great kids who dont miss their mom( i think you are taking care for that too), enough money, home and LUST OF HER LIFE ( <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> ).What are you doing to change this??. PLAN A???? how long???
Plan A is supposed to stop the affair, if the affair is too strong for that then vanish from her world, go dark and plan B.

I am not that much expereinced as some of the posters and i am not married also. But i want you to be happy with your family,wife and kids. This is just my humble opinion. god will give you strenghth.

dhanush

DH thank you for your OM viewpoint.

There are some things which make your suggestion difficult in my situation. OM is backpedalling at an olympic pace - WW is persuing NOTHING. The A is nearly dead from everyones perspective but hers.

She has only phoned him in 7 weeks since d-day. They have not met. The chances of them meeting again 'secretly' are low now that OM GF and I are working at both sides to prevent this happening. And OM will not leave his family. he was already recocniling hard with his family, denying my WW BEFORE the tragic death of is son. I see NOTHING prising him away now.

So my WW today ONLY HAS me. There IS no A. There IS no hope of being with OM. She just hsn't faced up to that yet.

I would not make D proceedings as a threat as my WW even pre-a was so proud she would follow it through without 'giving in'. She has always been stubborn.

I will propose her moving out if she is not prepared to commit to NC and some respect boundaries that I put in place. We'll see how she responds. Trouble is she has NO income other than me. OM has no income and NO desire to leave his F. Where the h3ll will WW go ?


I just want her to see that situation.

Thanks for your counsel, appreciated. God bless you too.

Bob, I know 7 weeks of this has been very hard on you, but it is not that long at all, as these things go.

And your wife is perfectly normal in the way she is reacting. It is called withdrawal. I hope you can hang in there and do nothing but give it more time.

Dear B she isn't withdrawing as she is still in touch with OM and in hope of resurrecting the A.

I could cope with ANYTHIN if there was NC and she was withdrawing.

I am considering what to do. I have no certainties but the sadness that fills our house.

Thanks B. Welcome as always {{{{b}}}}

bob

This post is very helpful to me. As you may or may not know our situations are similar but different. They are different in the fact that the A is still going on. SHe wont leave.

i know exactly your situation and i am sorry we are both here. We are both good people and deserve better.

The fog is so thick. i see no sighn of any lifting...i actually see more clouds rolling in. i hate to sound down but i am. I think my love bank is empty.

JAH this is strange my trying to motivate you when I am down too but please let me tell you a few things I know :

This BS plan a stuff is a HEROES gig. Cowards might as well just bugger off and leave it to the real men.

Its so hard because it requires uninstinctive, unmasculine behaviour. If you are a Silverback like me its absolutely counter intuitive to recognise fault or complicity in the A, not LB etc etc.

Let me tell you Men are SUPPOSED to "fight or flight" Risking life and limb in a "fight or flight" situation is also heroic but not like rescuing a marriage from an A. I would rather fight for my life physically than this.

Such "wars" dictate that we behave like MEN, affair recovery dictates that we behave like doormats while our heads and hearts are f'ked up. Nothing harder br'a. Nothing. Being strong when you are at your weakest. Heroic dude. Spiderman stuff.

This is a true Heroes gig. I am PROUD of my performance so far. PROUD y'hear ! I was SUICIDAL three weeks ago and now I am plan A'ing like an expert. Why ? Because the risks and rewards of this endeavour are the greatest of anything I have ever done, work, babies, everything.

If I do this right, I win back the love of the woman God gave me to spend my life with. I do this wrong, or fate is against me and I lose everything but my kids and my self-respect.

Now JAH I have followed your tale and you TELL ME NOW that you are not proud of your response so far. TELL ME !
You KNOW you have behaved impeccably in unbelievable conditions, you are of the hero breed br'a. Whatever happens to us , you and I deserve frickin medals for this sh1t. All ACTIVE BSs do. As do all recovered WS.

JAH you have to do what I am doing : remember you are a GOOD PERSON and this sh1t is NOT a reckoning upon you. This is a result of your WS response to conditions.

You have behaved HEROICALLY - supporting your kids above the call of duty and retaining a duty of care that is FAR from deserved by you WS.

That is the bahavior of a hero , sir.

If you gave up now, no-one could blame you. or me. And people would say " Bob and JAH tried so hard, but it wasn't to be".

But you and I would always know that as heroes we could've given more, worked harder, sucked it up more. Been more patient. Endured longer.

DO NOT leave this dark place with regrets, br'a. Whatever happens I will leave this darkness knowing I KICKED ITS [censored].

I pray that you and I recover the love of our spouses but if take anything from this post PLEASE take this :

You are cut from HERO cloth mo'fo. U ain't giving up [censored] till the fat lady sings.

Like Human League sang 20 years ago
" And if you don't pass the test, you'll know your worst is better than their best".

Take heart, sir.I salute your Herculean efforts against all odds. You inspire me, and raise me to higher efforts and achievments.

Hug your kids, sort your head out and plan B your t1ts off.

You are MAN, br'a and I am in awe of you. U fix this and your woman will be in AWE of you too. Imagin that.

{{{{JAH}}}}}

God bless you my brother in arms.

Bob -
I think she is withdrawing, she just hasn't figured it out yet. Your situation reminds me of spiderslayers. Her WH's OW stopped contacting WH. However he continued to try to contact her.

That went on for several weeks, and all of a sudden he started pursuing spiderslayer again.

An affair is just a fantasy. It may still be going on in your wife's mind, but it is OVER. It may just take awhile for her to realize it.

Believer, I do hope so. But 'weeks' is a long time to wait in hope when I am being disrespected by some situations every day.


I need to have a think.

WW noticed today my 36' waisted jeans were loose and needed a belt ( I was a 40" waist prior to the A and my subsequent gym work).

She said " its a pity I didn't have an A earlier,you're in good shape again "

I mean on the one hand its funny fog, right, but on the other it is dradfully disrespectful.

Sweetie -

You are doing just fine. You have turned this whole thing around in a very short time. Have you read the "instrument panel" and "lighthouse" posts?